gfp

Ya'all make good sense. It just kind of surprised me as it had never happened before. I get coupons all the time because I call companies and ask about their products but that has always be before I used them. I doubt they feared any kind of legal action from me, I am one of the 'you catch more flies with honey than vinegear' types.

If I was absolutely positive that this was what had gotten us I certainly would consider this. I have actually sent food into a lab once after I got salmonella at a local restaurant it can be quite costly here. I wish they would come out with a solution that we could put a bit of food into and it would change color and let us know gluten was there. They can do it with drugs would seem like they could do it with gluten. But our scientists would rather work on a pill.

You can there is a company near Chester (Deeside) that does home test kits but they are expensive and only work to 20ppm.

Also my ex-wife works for

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She used to be in the food lab but is now head of inorganics (so far as I know..haven't spoken in years)

First result from google! (not really trying to advertise)

It was a fairly good article, I liked particularly that it recognized that people who are overweight can also be celiac. The one unfortunate thing to me other than the absence of the neuro effects was the statement about the 'Old' Standard, the biopsy. Other than that it was a very informative piece.

One thing that is off topic though is that I wonder why it has taken 2 years for the NIH to start to get this info out. The symposium they held was back in 2004. I expected this to be coming out sooner than this year.

Rosie Schwartz is a Toronto-based consulting dietitian in private practice and is the author of The Enlightened Eater's Whole Foods Guide: Harvest the Power of Phyto Foods (Viking Canada).

Erm,,,they didn't really it just so happened someone wrote about it otherwise it would just be another buried study.

I heard that they inject the fruits with some sort of chemical ...I don't know if that is true but I have read that in a few books. They also irradiate them which is basically is like processing and radiating your fruits. I think thats just wrong.

Try the links above.....

btw this is an advert ....by the research to do this

EFFECT OF DIFFERENT CO2 AND O2 CONCENTRATIONS IN THE STORAGE OF ‘CONFERENCE’ PEARS ON THE RATE OF DECREASES IN FIRMNESS DURING RIPENING

Authors: J. Blaszczyk, J.M. Ben

Keywords: pears, acids, CA store, cold store, firmness, ripening, soluble solids

Abstract:

‘Conference’ pears were stored for 120, 150, 180, and 210 days in a standard cold store at 0°C and in a CA store. Ripening was conducted for 6 days at a constant temperature of 18°C or 10°C for the first 3 days and at 20°C for the subsequent 3 days. Pears from the standard cold store and from CA containing 0 % CO2 + 2 % O2 and ripened at 10°C, acquired the acceptable ripeness after 3 and 4 days, respectively. Pears from CA storage of 2 % CO2 + 2 % O2 or 3 % CO2 + 5 % O2 and ripened at the same temperature preserved the firmness within 1.5 – 2.0 kG. Lower ripening temperatures slowed firmness losses and metabolic changes, permitting a considerable extension of the marketing period.

Please don't follow bad abvice. it does not matter what their perceived waekness is, the Court will only think you are not mentally together. Insist your child is tested for celiac, make them rule it out. You ,must focus on getting your children back, not thinking you can "make the dr. a quivering mass on the floor."

Destroying the credentials of the expert witness in court is the job of your trial lawyer during cross examination just as the job of the prosecution is to destroy her credibility as a caring mother because all cases like thins hinge on is the testimony of an expert witness.

In the UK in the 80's and Belgium and France more recently thousands of kids were taken from their parents under various abuse changes and these parents all went to court to prove they were good parents (some of them maybe weren't) but very few of them ever won because they concentrated on defending thier position not discrediting the expert witness because in the end you have two people, the mother and the expert witness both saying the opposite.

Many thousands of kids were put into state care.... in the UK for years and in France for 6 months until someone took apart the expert witness because at the end of the day the law is judging the credibility of the two .... and the expert witness automatically has more credibility.

Here is an English version of the latest French one...

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Recent UK one

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A couple who believe their children have been wrongly taken away by social services told the BBC the court had ruled against them on the basis of one medical expert.

"There was no conflicting medical evidence," the father said. "It was him and him alone and that power surely cannot be allowed to continue.

"He held the power completely over our whole family and with that power in one fell swoop he destroyed it."

It depends...

Ideally I would send back the cheque and ask them the question again and say you are not interested in the money.

you could also get the product analysed and use the money to pay for it....

Make sure you send them a letter thanking them for paying a contrirution to have the product analysed and you are waiting for the results but would they mind sending another bigger one to cover your legal expenses. or suggest you could return the cheque and they could do the alalyses themselves. thus saving you legal expenses. since all you really want to know is if the product contains gluten!

Thanks, I froze it. I will try taking some out today for lunch and see how it comes out.

if you want toast then toast it straight from frozen....less chance of breaking which gluten-free bread has a habit of doing

just a hint when storing the chicken broth that you make, pour it into ice cube trays, freeze and then transfer to a gallon sized freezer bag, label it with a Sharpie so you don't forget what it is, and then when you need broth for something just pull out a few cubes and add to what you are cooking or heat up for a quick soup.

Excellent.... I used to make stufflike this for my girlfriend when she was studying abroad and i visited and she froze it in tupperware... and you needed an icepick to defrost...lumps ...

Lister.... you can add the broth to allsorts.(not just soup).. even just cooking plain rice and if you do it nini's way you just drop a couple of cubes in! and you can as suggested earlier cook vegetables in it...

Yes , You are right, it does begin with a single dr. What happenes that dr decides which ones she can pull in. If they work a t a hospital they know already they will get support from all the dr's in that hospital, they will not go against a collegue. Then they call primary peditrician, and from my friends case it actually said in the notes:

"Dr _____ called and said she is expert in MSBP(false) and said she has diagnosed mrs______ with it, said this is why no one could figure out johns problems. If she shows up at dr's office with John call the police. Also, we will have immunity if we agree with her. (this is example of roll over peditrician)

Not all do this but once a dr calls and claims to be an expert, even though they are not, dr's tend to fall for it and get scared. They rather have immunity against any lawsuit and agree then to stick with the parents they know are right. As far as the accusing dr having problems, I agree 100% I think a full mental evauluation should take place for the accusing dr. I am going through the same thing, the accusing dr here has done it to 10 families this year, I am in touch with 1 of them. Whats unfortunate is unless you have alot of $ to hire your own experts and good attorneys there is not much else you can do.

I think there is.... the problem is it doesn't seem right.... the mother is concerned about the baby not revenge...

but digging up dirt of the Dr. is the best way to do this.

It takes time and effort but going through the court proceedings you can find other cases and other moms...

You can find the Dr's qualifications and then find people who were with that Dr. at med school.....

Usually Dr's get up to all sorts of pranks at med school... yes it costs money but share this between 10 people...

and med school is extremely stressful and a lot of work.... many of these dr's may have been vulnerable and talked of past experiences or needed councelling....

Beleive me, an expert witness who is on record for drugs charges or even something really stupid as a child is an expert witness with no credibility... especially if you find your own expert witness in the form of the Dr's psychiatrist ... etc.

I like broccoli in oil and put spices on top. Try basil, pepper, parsley, ect. A little soy sauce is nice too.

sounds nice but I wouldn't recommend it for lister atm.....

another nice way is frying with bacon...

you can simply boil them in water until you can stick a fork through them or steam them with a basket steamer (if you don't have one, get one they are really cheap at the grocery store) you can stir fry them with a little veg. oil if you want or you can eat them raw.

Yep and you can always improvide a steamer with a metal (not plastic) seive ....

Lister...

Good on ya.... this sounds like a better and healthier diet

Steaming is really good because you don't loose the vitamins into the water

But also think about stuff like cabbage etc.

Ive said it before but you can buy a lot of chicken offcuts very cheap... thighs and drumsticks etc.

Its almost waste because so many people only want breasts....so its REAL CHEAP...

But on top of this its got more flavor and the bones and stuff are full of nutrients....especially ones celaics need.

You can for instance buy a 6 pack of thighs (or drumsticks) and stick em in a big pan and boil them skin and all after a quick rince...

After about 1/2 hr pull them out and the meat just falls off.

BUT... don't throw it away... 6 legs is a lot of meat.... so you can have 6 different meals AND you can still use all the nutrients in the pan.

Pull the meat off and refrigerate.... EVERYTHING else back in the pan and cook a good hour.

This is chicken stock... it will improve adding a few vegetables but you can use stuff like peel and carrot heads... celery tops etc. etc.

Again this stuff is FREE..... boil it in and then strain it into tupperware through a seive.

To make this into a chicken soup all you need to do is take a soup sized serving and stick it back in a pan.

To this you can add vegetables (the rest of the carrots for instance) .. and stuff like rice will soak in the flavor and thicken it up into a meal by itself.... (perfect for your growling tummy) you can add cabbage (and the hard bit can be put in the stock) and throw in some of the meat....

you can also take a cup full of stock and a bit of corn starch already dissolved in water and make a chicken gravy....just by stirring it in and heating. (add a bit of salt)...

The extra chicken can be used in chicken salads... etc.

Actually, it might also be "expert syndrome". The guy wanted to carve out a field where he wanted to be known for his expertise. So he found all these cases of MBP. It is a common way to promote yourself in a little known field. You paint a grim picture using FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) and exploit it to your advantage.

This is really terrifying. I think I'd advise anyone with a sick, undiagnosed child to take extremely good notes about their care.

The terrifying part of this is that these people are immune to prosecution!!!!

Not quite true.... you just have to do the work.

They cannot be prosecuted over false diagnosis etc. BUT they can be prosecuted for perjury if called as expert witnesses.

A recent UK case illustrates it is largely the legal system that choses not to prosecute them

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Credibility challenged

But last year, her credibility was challenged in a case at Snaresbrook Crown Court. A defence barrister Edward Henry accused her of misleading the court in her CV, which, he argued, suggested she had a degree from Balliol College, Oxford.

Ms Rees - who was the first completely deaf student to win a place at Oxford - readily conceded that she had not completed her degree. She said her CV was meant to show only that she had finished the first two years of the course.

The next day the Crown Prosecution Service dropped her as an expert witness in the Snaresbrook case. Mr Henry's client was later acquitted.

The police were asked to investigate Ms Rees on possible charges of perjury, and interviewed her under caution. The CPS has now decided not to prosecute her.

I can't say about the US but my ex works for a food analysis lab.

90% of UK fruit is over a year old. It costs a lot less to distribute.

Apples are usually treated with a layer of chitin (insect protein) and irradiated then put into a bio-clean cold storage.

but are one of the trickier fruits to store... the goal of all cold storge is to make the fruit last over a year so it can be sold as Fresh when people thing its the season...

Can I suggest

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Anyway, the reason for dying the apples is due to loosing color in storage.

Left out? Did I leave anything out?

Only a couple of scenarios....

First off I may not have a great faith in human nature but I find it more probable this is a single person instigating everything NOT the hosptial trying to cover its ASS directly.

What they are doing is very sick.. IMHO and I can't see a whole depratment covering this up... using specificaly MSBP because there are easier ways to cover a botched diagnosis and miscare... that would have a far less devastating effect on the mother and people are not that BAD.

What I think more probable is a single member of the department who is either CYAing or is actually seriously mentally ill. Lets call this hypothesis Misery syndrome after Stephen Kings book where his carer cuts off an ankle and a thumb and even after the reason for the internment (finishing the book is done won't let go)

Lets say an orderly develops Misery syndrome (like a reverse MSBP - where the carer makes the patient sick to prevent losing the patient)

This orderly then covers up their work by casting insinuations about the mother and even plating evidence.

In this case the person probably has a record of mental health issues... hence why I suggest a PI ...

Another scenario is this orderly has been abused as a child... and simply kep insinuating ....

I think this might be a MD mental disorder. One doctor did this to 6 different families.

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I agree, indeed I already said that....

The child is held up like a carrot, causing the mother to dance to their tune and agree to "MSBP counseling". Much of the purpose of this is to extract a false "confession," while assuring the mother that cooperation will enable a quicker reunification.

and also said DO NOT BE HELPFUL DO NOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT A LAWYER PRESENT

there is also the "celebrity" .... the article mentions a single Dr. with over 100 MSBP accusations...

I find it hard to beleive all 100 were CYA.....

Once again this is a mental illness. If someone can find out what happened to this Dr. then his testamony is probably worth nothing... Is he married... is he divroced... is he seperated from his kids? etc. etc.

Perhaps he used to beat his wife.. etc. etc.

This is the dirt you need... its distasteful but this is the best way.

Meanwhile a single Dr. doesn't do this alone.. they need to pull in others. But these others are probably CYAing... they don't want to be the person who didn't agree to call in CPS...

these people will crack if its disovered that the protagonist is unstable.

That's the problem with what the psychologist was doing. Memory is malleable. It has been shown that enough suggestion will cause a person, even an adult, to remember things that didn't happen. Children are even more suggestible. It's called "false memory syndrome". They have shown that repressed memories are rare, not common, and if a person does forget something, it is usually gone, not working in the back of their minds to cause them future issues. The problem is with the memories that can't be forgotten.

But memories that are implanted this way are as real to the rememberer as those that actually happened.

There were a lot of well-meaning therapists in the eighties and nineties who created an epidemic of recovered memories of child abuse where none actually existed, breaking up families, and finally being censured for what they did (and sued!).

I see this as the same as the MSBP issue. If someone believes that something exists, then they will ignore all evidence to the contrary and take whatever they can twist to support their beliefs as proof. So obviously she had issues, but she also believed that abuse like this happens all the time, that she can see in a child that it had happened, even though the child might be in denial or naively unaware, and that with enough prodding, the child will admit that it truly happened. She had probably had cases before you where the child finally gave up and started to believe what she was saying, and she took this as evidence that she was correct.

Absolutely spot on!

I have another story....

When I was 15 my mum was ill with compkucations from a hyterectomy and (well what we found out 18 years later was celiac disease - but that's a whole new thread)

Anyway my mom got disability for a while and one day a cheque went missing.

The detective decided I had done it and spent several hours illegally (no adult present) planting false memories and suggestions.... I view myself as pretty strong willed but even with this I started to wonder if I hadn't done it.

All this continued for a long time until i asked to see the actual cheque... what I hadn't been told was the date.

As it happened I had proof in my passport I wasn't even in the country at that time. So i went to get the passport and meanwhile (Yeah Im not so organised) he worked on my mom and got her to confess in order to save me...(since she didn't know why I was looking frantically upstairs)

My cousin is a lawyer so my mom asked him and his advice was not to even think of messing about or we would be victimised so bad we couldn't even get in the car without being pulled over before we even set off but he managed to barter a signed confession in exchange for them dropping criminal charges.

So he thought he got away with it... he didn't!

It took me 20 years to find out I was gluten intolerant and it still isn't accepted by the doctors here in france as I had started the diet before having the blood tests and biopsy. I have since got my brother and sister on the diet in england, I tried to talk them into having the tests first but they were discouraged by my results. We are all 100% better on the diet, but no way is it recognised and talked about a lot here. Perhaps in Italy where I've heard they test at birth.

Its really just a matter of finding the right Dr.

The first one I had in France just told me I couldn't possibly have celiac disease since its a childhood disease..

The second one would say things like "Oh did you eat a cake or something by mistake" when I got glutened by CC

My medecin de travail just said I would have to "be sent home, since I couldn't do the job"

but now I have a good generaliste who is reasonably informed, orders me screening (to make sure Im staying gluten-free) which I never bother with... (no mutuelle) etc. and I know of another Dr. who contacted me (both in Paris)

So...you figured all this out by the time you were 13? Amazing--it was all I could do to follow the story

I tried my best but its really hard to remember what you deduced as a child and what you later deduced after...

I remember the facts but not the actual questions.... apart from a few so the others are examples of what I think I must have asked to get the facts....

Its a bit like having a memory of the house you lived in when you were 2-3 .... I remember my brother coming "home" at 2 1/2 and i remember the living room (that was later knocked (when I was 7-8) though because I remember having to go through a (later blocked) door to go and meet mum and the new baby... (this was 1970...)

.. and I think I remember the wallpaper... but do I or did I see it on a photo... ???

Hard to be really sure...

Oh, c'mon, since when are you worried about giving the long answer!!??

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you win, hope I don't regret this...

gfp----you've GOT to tell us more of this story------you've only teased us! (but on another thread so as not to hijack this one) i think alot of people might be helped by how you were able to figure the woman out.

I'm afraid its only a short answer..(not worth a thread)...I guess its a knack. On second thoughts...I might try and explain...

... OK...but I'm going to make it fun.. (least wise it will be for me...I hope for you too )

1st thing is I'm not normal in what would be described asOpen Original Shared Link.

That isn't to say I'm diagnosed with any physchological label... not view myself competent to judge....

Anyway.... 1st thing is I tend to study people very deeply all the time. I can't really help it but I don't know if you could just force yourself to do it...I just do it...

However what I noticed was if you really listen and watch when someone is making a case against you, especially any physcholist they seem unable to not bring in personal experience

So back in the situation of having a child psychologist suddenly spend several weeks trying to get me to say my father "touched me"... you have to wonder... what is her obscession.... ?

Well the first thing is to assume she must have been abused as a child... she is trying to save children the same thing... but somehow the body language is different. When they ask a question alluring to an over sexual act she seemed keen to hear about it... in the wrong way.

If she had been abused she wouldn't want to hear other stories of it...., perhaps in one way but not in a gleeful way. and then when she asked innocuous questions like "Does he touch you when he gives you spending money? (allowance)" she was eager in a different way.... eager in a longing way...

So I guess I had to have decided it was the latter....

... so I just kept listening and kept watching and noting her response to her questions.

When someone is giving a personal example they act differently to a theoretical one or one from a text book.

I don't really know how much of these things most people actually consciously recognise.... but you know it. Its what you see in a truly excellent actor(ess) over a just excellent one. I think people must see it and perhaps some just don't recognose it conciously....but the fact actors can be taught this must mean people do!

For example imagine asking about a crime scene in CSI....(i take it some people watch the TV shows )

Now if you had been to a really gory crime scene it would be different to hearing, reading and seeing video reports about it later.

Lets say it was really horrible.... and you saw video and then saw reports and photo's... your response would be YUCK... UGGGH.........EEEEWWW as opposed to actually seeing the crime scene and being there.

So imagine Grisham (my fav character) is questioning a suspect and he related to this crime scene in the interview in real life when he described the scene to the person being questioned the investigator would describe the scene differently if he actually saw the scene... there would be disgust, revulsion in both but non of this would show the gut wrenching feeling of actually being there and flashing back through retelling what you saw..... in that case the person would also be showing fear ... the fear they had of having to be at the scene and do a job... the fear of not being able to leave until that job was done...

So when someone has it in for you like this psychologist had for me they can't stop themselves asking questions from personal experience... so you just have to spot all of these and see the patterns.... when they are asking questions from the text book and when they are using personal experience....

while you do this you lead the questions ..by asking them to be more specific... so

"Does he touch you when he gives you money?" you answer

"How do you mean touch"

then they have to answer... the text book one has a text book reason... so that comes easily and in a flat voice.

but if they are asking this from a personal experience they have to think to the real example.... there will be a pause and the voice will change as they start to speak... they may even uhum and start again...

whatever emotion it touched will be in the answer to the question...

"Oh when they put money out for you do they touch your hand or do they put it down on a table"

see... too specific.... why a table.... so you ask the question

"You mean a table or a kitchen counter ...? "

Obviously at this point they inform you that they are the ones asking the questions .. or do they?

Even this is telling....

In my case she did.... so you haveto ask why? What memory is it dragging up. So you play along and ask

"well I just wanted to be specific because you said touched... and if daddy is working on the car or covered in oil he tells me to take it from his wallet or this drawer we have. Daddy often works on the car or in his workshop.... I wish he would spend more time with me and mum"

Now you dangle the bait....

In my case she flustered and started back on Daddy touching me...(thought bubble )

DUH... your a child psychologist sweety pie...I just told you my father was neglecting the family and implied mommies upset .. while completely missing the fact you know my parents are divorced and I just impiied they live together and I cried out help ... help and you are back on Daddy touching me ..hmmmm

but you don't say at this point.... you wait for several more 2 hour sessions and gather more and more info in the same way and you remember each personal experience they bring up and reintroduce it from an oblique angle.....You make a list of that persons psychoses..... what scares them, what revolts them and mostly what they wished.... yes, especially what they wished that never came true.

This little girl had a pony... Daddy bought her the pony to show her he loved her because daddy couldn't show his love by hugs or playing... indeed I found out that daddy had a different bed room from mommy... (and I still remember this 25 yrs later) and what this girl wished for more than anything was for Daddy to pick her up and play with her..

Anyway.... it still doesn't stop.... now we know she had a wish .. and it concerned unfulfillled hugs from her father... It would seem he hasn't got older and started so time to find out a killer factiod...just need to pick the moment... so I see Dad at weekends.... so next session she has to ask "Did you see your father this weekend"

To which the answer is "I see my father every weekend .. Did you see your father?"

"He died, my father died I don't see him"

"Oh I'm sorry, I just didn't understand the question... you know I see my father at the weekend?"

Now you have your "switch".... from this point on you can illicit more personal experience by mentioning 'Seeing fathers at weekend.'.. She will remember this and the connection.... you can use fathers and wekend visits to shape the questions....and at this point finding out of her father died without ever embrassing her is important....

So a question regarding a historic "Did father touch you when you were younger" you can now

"How do you mean ... I mean adults touch us differently according to how old we are... like when your a baby they pick you up all the time and when you get bigger you still get hugs but they don't pick you up and twirl you round... and when your grown up.... well, I dunno... Did your father still hug you when you were grown up? "

See now you got it.... its starting to come together.... ?

Next and this like the last thing worked cos I was a kid.... (no not acting the goat )

So as a kid you can ask ... that you heard that when people die you have to kiss them at a funeral and its really scary because your friends Dad died and he's really scared to kiss his dead dad at the funeral and .... (poor ficititus friend) ...{I rarely tell lies or untruths... although isn't that an oxymoron? but this is not a conversation its an act... to extract info ... it is as true as the textbook cases she was telling you...}

.. anyway... as I was saying...

Now you need to put up with her giving you comfort.... and then you say "your mum might make you go and then you would have to kiss him ....too.... and ....."

And finally you find out if she kissed her dead father....

She did in my case.... so this is the one to throw in later when you are ready to dismantle her...layer by layer.

so basically gather the facts and put them into a story (funny I feel like Im doing that now?) in order of happening and importance instead of the order you found them out...

Start with the earliest strong event "The pony" tell her her own story back up to the coup de grace "Didn't you wish your father could have hugged you one last time before he died and you had to do it when he was dead"

Its important to reserve some big hitters for the final quarter... as you drive it home.

Well, I probably said half of I meant and less than half I should ...

I was just a 12-13 yr old kid who was in psychology because my parents were just divorced and forced to attend a school I hated...

I had of course tried explaining this in the first session, just as I'm telling you now!

I hope its been fun and I hope after quite a few drinks I haven't said something I'll regret

If this makes any sense tomorrow, Ill be ???

gfp----you've GOT to tell us more of this story------you've only teased us! (but on another thread so as not to hijack this one) i think alot of people might be helped by how you were able to figure the woman out.

I'm afraid its only a short answer..(not worth a thread)...I guess its a knack. On second thoughts...I might try and explain...

I homeschooled for 10 years, and when I started it was not as popular as it is today. This was very well-known in the home school community as it happened frequently to home schoolers. Now there is the Home School Legal Defense Fund (HSLDA), which was started for this and other problems home schoolers face. If you're a home schooler, I encourage you to join as it's like insurance in case you end up in a lawsuit with the CPS or the state about your rights to teach your children.

I'm sorry for you. It's really unbelievable that you are guilty until proven innocent. It's a system designed to help children in extreme situations, but is often abused.

Even in the absense of a specific defense fund you must be able to find some legal aid to help you through this.

I really suggest turning your energy towards finding a lawyer with experience in MSBP...

This is probably down to a single person.... who has then convinced the others ...

Your lawyer will probably want to hire a PI to dig up dirt on this person.... so if you know who it is that would help.

Also Dr.s who habitually cover thier own mistakes by blaming parents do this to others.... you need to find other mothers from the same person and prove a pattern.

Forget all the "nambie pambie" stuff about being nice.... you need to go for this persons juglar. If they lose their job and whatever that is not your concern. Be prepared to do ANYTHING .... Your lawyer will also tell you this I imagine. You have to HURT this person so bad they will break down and see that there way of life is threatened. They may well be mentally ill themselves!

When I was 12-13 I was sent to child psychologists who spent several weeks trying to get me to say "My father touched me" it was a huge fashion at the time in the UK... thousands of kids were taken from parents and put into care homes to be abused by the carers.

I waited and I found her weakeness. Then I destroyed her ... until she was a quivering heap on the floor. She was mentally ill (my diagnosis) and had missed any and all contact with her father who had never touched her even to give her a hug or even to give her money.

Anyway... I was sent back to school, told never to go back and later told she had quit her job.

I was meant to feel guilty about this....????

I don't feel guilty, if she had commited suicide that night (and beleive me I suggested a few ways to her when she was weeping on the floor) I would not feel guitly because she was a bitter nasty person trying to seperate kids from their parents because of her own mental health issues.

I rather hope she was commited and never works again!

Screw this person.... they are not interested in the child... if they were they would have put the child into intensive care and not allowed any non medical staff access. What they did was let you take her home and then start the MSBP.proceedings.. this is not normal behaviour.... they have a problem ...you need to find it and exploit it!

If this sounds tough.. it is... they are playing with a dangeous thing ....

About 4 yrs ago in Norway a mother failed an IQ test and had her children taken away by the state.

In all respects she was actually above average intellegence (as attested by her GP, school and academic achievments), she just didn't put much effort into the test and was distracted... as i remember by her kids... and worrying about one of them at school or something.

Do whatever you must....

Another thing you need to be aware of is the CPS will try and convince you that maybe you did it....

They can be VERY convincing... they will suggest scenarios and say they understand.... they will say that you thought you were doing the best for your baby but ....

Do not attend any questioning without a lawyer.... !!!

Don't try and appear helpful.... it won't help.

As long as you're feeling better - and you continue to improve - on the gluten-free diet, then tell that Doc to take a hike.

That being said though, those blood tests are yours, you can simply demand a copy.

And you never have to submit to a test without knowing exactly was it's for. If you already asked questions and got the "pat on the head", patronizing, "don't worry about it dear" garbage then you need to demand - in writing - what the stomach MRI is for. If they still stonewall you about it, then run for the hills 'cause they're either qwacks or crooks.

MRI is not a diagnostic tool for celiac. It is a tool to diagnose other problems though, (giving the doc the benefit of the doubt for a second here) perhaps she's got something more serious in mind and wants to rule it out first?

My thoughts EXACTLY....

I wouldn't mess about.. demand the tests in writing and demand to know how these tests rule out celaic .. in writing and the purpose of the MRI in writing.

Keep it very short.... do not apologise.... DEMAND.....very plain and simple.

Before you do this you need to prepare yourself. Your Dr. will probably be scared by this, she will react by trying to scare you.

Look at it this way. No Dr. ever got sued for not diagnosising celiac.

Plenty of Dr.s get sued for mis-diagnosising something like cancer.

So your Dr. is covering her ass. BUT it get better. She will probably be paid a referral fee ...so her choice is risk having her ass sued.. or cover herself and make some extra money.

So she will reply that she is trying to rule out "insert scary illness here"

Don't be freaked out! She is CYA'ing

I would suggest a series of letters...

#1 a Very plain demand for your results and reasons for the MRI and how the results rule out celiac

#2 If this doesn't work a strong letter ... very clearly saying the reults are yours and she has no right to withold them and that your next recourse will be via a lawyer.... make sure you send it registered or courier ..keep a copy.

#3 (I very much doubt it will come to this).... a consultation with a lawyer and a legal letter demanding results.. show the lawyer your letter ....

you only need to be ready to do #3 if #1 and #2 don't work!

I think it depends on the person AND timing.

I think initially the setback to a small amount of gluten is a lot worse than after you have been gluten-free for months. It can feel opposite... but the actual damage and general health recover faster ...

Secondly I think there are a lot of symptoms that we don't realise until we go completely gluten-free.

The problem is when we are first diagnosed its a mystery... CC and hidden gluten ninja's lurk everywhere and so we think we are gluten-free but we are not.

Most people going gluten-free-lite seem to hit a plateau. The major symptoms subside but they are not 100%...

Most people who go 100% gluten-free then discover these symptoms they just thought were due to aging or everyone has them etc.

So much as this sucks... i think the best thing is to be completely paranoid for 2-3 months....

You can be certain about contamination of you choose the right foods...

Sure someone might have touched the carrots after touching bread BUT you can wash and then peel carrots.

Wash all meat before eating.... who knows if the butcher was making sausages before...

etc. etc.

After 2-3 months then the body is in a much stronger position so that if you do get CC or hidden gluten ninja's it doesn't knock you all the way back to where you were.

Well I have been gone for the weekend and I am now back with exciting news.

I appreciate everyone's input. I read them all.

As far as all the posts - very overwhelming and nothing at this point is too harsh (after the way my doctor treated me). I need it straight to the point. Today I have found out that I need separate cutting boards, sponges, etc. I was thinking at first you have got to be kidding me , but I have to stop thinking this way and do what will make me healthy again.

Thank you....

When I was diag'd in Feb '06, I had that attitude, you've got to be kidding me and followed the diet on and off again (more than likely due to the difficulty of making 2 meals). I had only gotten sicker and sicker. In June, my doctor's assistant sat me down and said to me, you can die, you can have osteoporisis, I personally don't care especially if you are not going to do what you need to do. The last words out of his mouth were "if you need a pyschatrist I can refer you to a good one, who can help you sort out your food issues". I was shocked, i don't have food issues, I don't need a shrink for this, I need a personal 100% gluten-free chef.

I think you might look back and see this was actually a really good Dr. giving you 110% and actually trying to shock you into the seriousness of this.

Ahem... anyone who says "I personally don't care" in this context obviously does! If he didn't care he wouldn't have said anything!

So I have been doing the best I can possibly can. With a few flaws, but 99% better than before. I am getting the hang of it and I now understand the importance of it.

This really is the hardest part.... most of us go through denial of some sort. Many of us even start to doubt a diagnosis and tell ourselves... "We are not so sensitive.".. I remember all to well....

This weekend I spoke with my husband and he just didn't realize how sick and weak I am, he thought this was just a diet thing and it was going to go away. He now realizes how important it is that I don't eat gluten or cross-contaminate gluten. And that I am too tired to have 6 pots cooking at one time for 2 meals.

This is really necassary.... really you are already making huge steps. When you are part of a family you simply can't do this without everyone being on board... you and they need to realise.. this is not like weight watchers where you can cheat a bit one day and make up for it the next.... its a medical condition and the only treatment is a strict gluten-free diet.

Yesterday we went to d'angelos sandwich shop, looked online at the menu ahead of time, knew I was going to get a blt w/ cheese and mushrooms - no bread. The kid behind the counter looked at me stunned, "no bread how do I do that", as my husband pipes up, "yeah she can't have bread it makes her sick, put it in a bowl". Which I thought was adorable, he was actually standing up for me. So the kid had to ask someone, how to make the computer do that, and everyone else behind the counter, knew how. One woman said you have that gluten thing huh? And told me, they could accommodate me anytime.

Your hubby supporting you is a very big step... personally I would say be really wary of eating out for 3 months or so as your body recovers.... the problem is a tiny glutening now can knock you back in the recovery far more than the same glutening once you have overcome the worst of it.

The problem is the bone crushing tiredness doesn't encourage this!

Its a bit of a trap.... catch-22 which is why I beleive its SO IMPORTANT to get support from spouse, family etc.

Whenever you are glutened your body makes antibodies... just like getting a cold or flu.... and this in itself makes you tired. When you have been glutened for a long time this builds up... it becomes much more than just tired...

and at the same time you are not adsorbing the nutrients in your food.

Now to answer a bit more of this and also Queen serenity at the same time

I have never heard of being affected neurologically by Celiac's. That's an interesting concept. Where did you get your info?

One of the members here has a nice summary

Open Original Shared Link

From: Neurologic Manifestations of Gastrointestinal Disease by Mark B. Skeen, MD, Neurologic Clinics, Volume 20, Number 1, February 2002

"Neurologic disease associated with gluten sensitivity or celiac disease includes a wide range of manifestations:

Central nervous system (CNS) manifestations include dementia, cerebellar ataxia, myelopathy, encephalopathy, brain stem encephalitis, progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy,chronic, progressive leukoencephalopathy, progressive myoclonic ataxia, seizures, isolated CNS vasculitis, and a syndrome of celiac disease with encephalopathy and bilateral occipital calcifications.”

“Several reports document the existence of peripheral neuropathy in association with celiac disease.”

Follow the link because it links to many others and the individual medical papers.

Specifically (and don't scare yourself silly reading this)

Open Original Shared Link

As far as my husband goes, he can't cook worth a darn! laugh.gif

Ah, come-on.. we are only talking about following instructions on a packet of gluten-free pasta?

Yeah... he'll probably mess it up once or twice... but ...he'll only appreciate you all the more...

So, that's why I'm in charge. But, to be honest, when I said that I prepare pasta for the family, it's actually a rare occurence.

That makes a huge difference.........

The thing is humans are creatures of habit. We have lots of semi-autonomous habits... like driving or riding a bike where we don't really think about what we are doing.

For example .. I already said about cutting onions... now obviously a razor sharp knife is a dangerous thing (all of my knives are razor sharp) but I have so much practice I can chop an onion without really even paying attention or looking any more than I think about balancing riding a bike.

I can chop an onion and then find it had a bad centre or its a twin.. and I then realise I wasn't actually looking at what I was chopping... and razor sharp for me means if i place the knife on a tomato its weight will cut clean through..

Cooking is for those who do it everyday a semi-autonomous action. However when we make it a special case we actually do pay attention... back to that onion .. my normal onion chopping skills sometimes leave tiny bits of skin in the onion ... sometimes I just chopped brocolli or something else on the board...

BUT when I cook for guests I take longer cutting the onion.... I make sure I clean anything else off the board and make sure non of the skin gets into the pan...

So I think if you make a special case..(like a special treat).. keep a seperate pan etc. bear in mind that you are mentally cooking poision you force the effort. But if you just do this as an everyday occurence you soon relax the vigilance...

If you read the neuropathy papers you can see that no D doesn't mean no damage!

Indeed even for normal classic villi problems no D doesn't mean no prob's.

I think I will take your advice, and keep a seperate pot for their pasta, just because you did some science experiments! biggrin.gif

One lab I worked in analysed oils and one of the lab techs messed with his car over lunch one day.while wearing his lab clothes (he only played with the timing and went nowhere near the oil).. and had a synthetic oil (very very noticable on a GC/MS trace) .... it took weeks to get of the traces of synthetic oils (and a few 10's of thousands of $) ... and all he had done was touch a few pieces of glass wear...

In the end we had to analyse his oil and then remove it from hundreds of results....

And before I forget, as far as my toaster is concerned, I rarely use it, because I'm not a big bread eater. It is just to expensive for me to buy, and I treat myself occasionally. Maybe, this is why I don't notice any symptoms of cross contamination. Who knows?

You don't need a quality one then.. if its rarely used a cheapo $20 one from somewhere is good enough? Apart from toasting gluten-free stuff almost always means messing with the settings anyway...

Expense is relative... eKatherine made a really stunning comment the other day... about a paper saying "the gluten-free diet is expensive" ... as she said what is the cost of a lifetime gluten-free diet against a single biopsy? but more importantly against complications ... like thyroid or lymphoma....

As Ursula pointed out the other day... "she counts herself lucky to react" .. I agree... much as it would be nice to not react at inconvenient times to traces of gluten at least I spot them ...

This is always a difficult subject.

In one way I think I am just a regualr Joe with somethings I can't eat... in other ways I think I'm a celiac.

Whoah... what... am I defining who I am by a medical condition?

"Hi, my name's steve and I'm a celaic.... Ive been gluten free since ....."

What is this?

When ever I start thinking like this I start asking who's in charge, a couple of errant genes or the other 99.99999999999999999999999999% of my DNA...

At the same time eating out is ALWAYS a risk....

However, what I have found is that although the reaction itself can be more severe after gluten-free you are not so ill for so long. How can I put it.... yes you have D, brain fog but the longer term stuff seems to fix more easily once you have got back to healthy. In other words you don't plunge back allthe way to pre-gluten-free days from a single glutening in overall health.

I think it is very important that newly diagnosed celiacs go 100% gluten-free and take no risks but that's not usually the case. What is more normal is you start off beleiving the Dr's who don't really understand because on the whole they are not celaic themselves. It hasn't really crossed there mind that cornflakes are coated in horedin or a single bread crumb will make you ill etc. etc. because why would they ever think of this????

So its my belief that when we are at our most damaged a little glutening sets us back a long way but as we do a gluten-free diet although we become more sensitive to gluten we don't do as much long term damage as before.... and our body is soon readsorbing nutrients.

So in answer to resto's.... basically I think its a risk and we make our own luck.

The more time we spend educating the resto the better .... but at the end of the day we are taking a chance.

In the end I ask myself, does celiac control me or do I control the celiac?

So I do eat out but I take a lot of time to educate the resto... Yes, I do get caught out but that's life.

Most people seem to get colds and even flu once a year... but they still go to work/school or whereever where they can catch a cold or flu.

I don't get colds or flu (I used to think I did but in retrospect most of the symptoms were gluten induced long explanation).. so I think it balances out.

Wheat probably is hard to digest for everyone, so it's a good product. They just need better labeling.

Much as labelling is what they need I also think that they have obviously chosen to mislead.

AS far as I know, maltodextrin is made from corn, so it should be okay.

So long as its made in the US or Canada....