gfp

https://www.celiac.com/articles/329/1/Are-D...Safe/Page1.html

Steve, perhaps you analysis is to a much greater level, this is what I base my recommendation upon.

Well, I did actually work on a research project for 2 yrs on modeling pretty much a similar process.

In reality it is one of "those subjects" where a little knowledge can be quite misleading.

Schools have to teach distillation 'somehow' and most kids are not ready for quantum theory .... so its over simplified (like a lot of things) ...

A typical example is how does a TV work.... ???

Sure we have some basic knowledge from school but you certainly are not equipped to go out and buy the parts and make one from scratch ... so although we might think we know how a TV works... we don't really know the detail... and despite me spending 10 yrs studying science at University I doubt I could actually build a TV from scratch....

Shauna Ahearn studied nutrition (if I remember) so I doubt she can build a TV from scratch either... equally however I doubt she studied post-doc chemistry. If you ask any Chemistry professor or research chemist however they will tell you that predicting exactly what is in the distillate is a black art ... and not repeatable.

However from the OP's post ...

She says this has been scientifically tested.

Various tests say 200ppm is 'safe'..... by which they mean the control group eating 200ppm and the gluten-free group had the same incidences of damage to the villi.

However NONE of these tests i have seen have

1/ Verified the control group are REALLY gluten-free.

2/ Included neurological and other symptoms ...etc.

This is known as biasing the sample....

So what I have to do is compare experience in real life ...

1/ I know I react

2/ I know others on this board who react

The same goes for grain alcohol.... its the same 1 & 2 above....

So worst case ... erm I'm wrong ... I'm missing out knocking back those whisky's and eating cardboard bread.

The flip side ... I don't get ill. I don't do long term damage.

Even if it was purely psychological (and I don't think it is) .. but even if it was it it not worth it just to FEEL well?

However the arguments for it are what I call the "crossing the road without looking" arguments.

Just because you do it once and live doesn't mean you can keep doing it or its safe.

That might sound extreme but really we are talking about something pretty important "our health" ...

I'd rather be wrong and safe than correct and ill and I'm not really giving up much compared to my health.

As I said above... any gourmet vinegar is almost certainly OK so long as its not flavored....

from your link

Distilled vinegar can be distilled from wheat, corn, potatoes, beets, wood, apples and many other things. Most in the USA are not made from wheat, but are instead made from corn, potatoes or wood, which are all safe (Heinz white vinegar is distilled from corn). Distilled vinegars that are made from wheat are probably gluten-free because of the distillation process described in Frederik Willem Janssens article on this site.

1/ We are hardly missing out because we only avoid the MINORITY made from wheat ... honestly, why take a chance when other products probably as good or even better use non wheat derived vinegar? If you compare his to gluten-free breads and stuff we really are missing out... honestly its never AS GOOD as really good fresh (poison) bread

2/ Probably ... doesn't sit well when talking about health.

My son is being bullied at lunch because he can't have what others eat. He stands up for himself but he is getting tired. He now hated school. He says he is a freak and don't want to live like this. I encourage him to explain his illness so others will know that he is the same preson that he has always been. Thank you for this website. Sometimes it is hard when you have no one to talk to that understand the situation. New comer hope this came out right. PLEASE GIVE ME MORE IDEAS ON HOW YOU HANDLED A SIMULAR SITUATION. HELP NEEDED!!!

This probably won't be a popular response but .....

The way I dealt with bullies at school (somehow always being the 2nd shortest in my year - we now know why with th celiac disease) is quite simple .. HURT them ... Bullies don't like being hurt which is why they pick on people that don't fight back ... fight back and make sure you hurt them even if you get hurt worse and they won't try again! Neither will he have to do it often... bullies usually target the people who they know don't fight back ... the diet is simply an excuse ...

Unfortunately they will still be bullies and will simply transfer their bullying to someone else ... but it does solve Matt's problem.

I just don't have time to worry about CC all of the time, and I value my health more than that. And I feel like it's MY house, I should be safe here.

Good luck!

This absolutely sums it up....

Unless people are going to be REALLY careful ALL the time then accidents will happen!!!

Kids .. its impossible... they might try but unless they have no energy or enthusiasm for life they will make crumbs

Someone else mentioned petfood .... this is another biggy.... especially DOGS.... (and quite honestly why give a cat gluten)

Dogs are just messy eaters ... they can't help it so they get crumbs in the beard .. which end up on the furniture etc.

but the bottom line is if DH likes his gluten or the kids miss treats then this is really not being selfish because its your health vs what they miss .... would someone smoke next to an asthmatic? I view it like this...and Adelle sums it up very nicely.

I just bought Shauna Ahearn's Gluten-free girl cookbook. In it she says that not using vanilla, vinegars and grain alcohols (like Scotch) "smacks of old thinking." She explains that the distillation process eliminates the gluten in the final product and says we can have those things without worrying. She says this has been scientifically tested.

So is she right?

I am seeing so much conflicting information on this point that I feel confused. And it is important because I adore real Mexican vanilla (the best, in my opinion) and I like to cook with extracts and there are certain vinegars that are unique and wonderful. The scotch I could care less about, but some people might really want to know!

Lisa

Vanilla - Well just get fresh or failing that you can buy the pods shrink wrapped... any unique or wonderful vinegar is pretty much OK unless its a malt vinegar.. i.e. GOOD wine, cider etc. vinegars are not distilled and gluten-free..

However on distillation, Nope .. its not old thinking and she is not correct ... because she is using high school chemistry not post grad chemistry.

Distillation as taught at high school is nothing like what happens in real life, its a huge over simplification that avoids a lot of complex chemistry and math that you don't know as undergrad level ... and suffices for the process of examinations at high school level...

As a really simple way to view it... if distillation of alcohols REALLY produced a pure distillate then all unflavored alcohols would taste the same BUT. tequila, vodka etc. taste different ...

The second assumption is that gluten is too large to pass into a distillate ...

1/ Nothing is too large.. Open Original Shared Link

Theoretically your computer could spontaneously dissapear but the odds against that are billions to one... the odds of a single molecule of gluten achieving the kinetic energy to escape however is way lower and there are millions of them...

However ... this assumes wrongly that gluten is what celiacs react to when it is known it is not... so far as i know noone actually knows EXACTLY what we misidentify but that it is a common protein sequence in gluten, horedin (barley) avenin ... that dosn't occur in other plants. (or at least ones we eat)...

Since 90% of the DNA is identical .. not only to other plants but actually to me and you as well this narrows it down...but we still don't know exactly which chain it is nor its length... (although it must be larger than 8C in order to be unique) ..

The next important point is that the 'mash' doesn't contain water and alcohol ... it contains literally hundreds if not thousands of compounds some from the grain or sugar and other's from yeast etc. and no two fermentations ever produce identical products.

Within distillation this is known as an azeotropic multiphase system... if someone can sucessfully solve this then there is a lot of money waiting ...

Open Original Shared Link

This all assumes for instance that water boils at 212F or 100C ....

Firstly it does this at 1 atmosphere ON AVERAGE ... but everyone has seen steam coming right off ice... if water had to get to 100C to evaporate then we would have no rain! This happens because some of the molecules randomly get more kinetic energy ..

However in a mutliphase system the different solutes react with each other ... some cling together and others push away...so if you heat water and heavy oil the water will evaporate faster than without because the oil pushes it away...

In the multiphase system you have hundreds of different things.. some push each other away and some attract others...

Notably water pushes away gluten (which is a prolamine) but there are hundreds of others each interacting ...

So this is like life in a way... imagine that one day you missed a bus or train where you met someone that changed your life...

If just one of these solutes becomes enriched or depleted the whole distillation will become different .. it will still end up with 98% alcohol and 2% water and less than a percent of everything else but the composition of that everything else might be radically different...

Summary

You can't predict the exact distillate even if the fermeted mash was identical each time (and its not) nor do we know exactly which part of gluten causes the reaction....

a few people find they are bothered by vinegar - you may find that it is vinegar itself, even, not gluten in it, that bothers you.

Like ravenwoodglass I have reacted to "distilled" grain products... and as far as the vinegar part I seem to be fine with cider and wine vinegar (so long as its not got coloring) so this doesn't seem to be the acetic acid part, at least for me ...

But the bottom line lie others have said, it could have been chillies ?? it could be the acetic acid like tarnelberry say's .... it could be something else... like someone eating a sandwich touched your hands... etc. etc. ... so sometimes these things just remain mysteries... for instance the bottle may have got flour on it in the supermarket/transit/warehouse etc. or any other can/bottle etc.

Really its a bit like trying not to catch a cold... you can take reasonable precautions, limit public transport etc. but short of living in a bubble there are no guarantees. My perspective is that "reasonable" precautions probably do 90% ... and that last 10% is impossible so even the last 9% ... means changing things really fundamental...

I do have a friend who has seizures triggered by gluten and she has to do the extra 9%.... she wears gloves always to prevent getting it on her hands from door handles etc. and then onto her clothes etc. .. and wears a mask in the supermarket in case someone drops a bag of flour ... it might seem excessive but her reaction can be life threatening ...

So for me I find that I can get the 90%+ and still have a life

clutching at straws ?? No I don't think so.... this is really the only way we learn.... perhaps not this time but next time you feel up to testing the sweet chilli sauce you'll find out if it was that or not...

Some good advice so far, indeed I guess this is just a summary...

Since you smoke .. i'll use that analogy. (and its just an easy analogy) Don't know how much you smoke but lets say 20 a day.

As we all know nicotine, tar etc. is bad ... but our bodies adapt to getting rid of it. However, imagine a non smoker trying to smoke 20 a day... they would be sick as a dog...You would probably be healthier if you didn't smoke BUT it doesn't affect you like it would the non smoker, but the long term effects etc. are what are serious. (I'm not telling you not to smoke here, its really just an analogy)

This is how I see the gluten thing ... when you eat it all the time it makes you sick... but it makes you sick in the long term way...

Its addictive (like nicotine) as well so you also get withdrawal effects.

However your body gets on with processing the toxins and indeed gets tuned to dealing with them. When you go gluten-free your body will adjust back to not coping with these toxins.. and then when it gets some it suddenly jumps into over drive...

Just to thrash out the analogy ... If you ever quit smoking then you'll realise that the first cigarette after a year tastes foul...and makes you feel ill BUT you adjust back to being an addict much quicker than someone who never smoked. Again this seems similar with gluten... once your body has been in a state of dealing with it constantly it seems to revert back to the same reactions much more readily and even more violently than before...

Practical advice?

So taking the hightened sensitivity into account basically as people have said.. cross contamination and traces of gluten (if its gluten not wheat) are going to hit you much harder... which means a bigger effort to keep away...

The only 100% sure way is cook everything at home, from scratch in a kitchen with non of the allergens...

Obviously very few people have this luxury... so it's then damage control ...

Eating out is always dodgy... and for you

...Peanut, Wheat, Dairy/Egg allergy, I've also found that SOY...

So basically you need to be wary of people using the same dish cloth, etc. and as you have noticed the tiniest amount is enough... just an example .. our serviced office shares a kitchen... I know 100% what I have eaten for the last week because I prepared it 100% myself YET I'm glutened .... the most likely explanation is that the cleaners put everything in the same dishwasher and several people bring in cereals, bread etc. so the cups and teaspoons are contaminated ... OR they are using the same spoon in the coffee etc.

Basically it can't be anything else ...

Now the kicker is that nearly all MD's will tell you this is safe.... The UK actually allows 20ppm or 200ppm (depending on product) and it can still be called gluten-free. Unfortunately, regardless of the misleading studies (undertaken and paid for by the food industry) I am certain that I react and so are quite a few people here on this board..

So basically ... the best advice I can give is be as paranoid as you can... minimise your risks and be prepared to foul-up every so often... and learn from your mistakes.

Also beaglehollerranch has a good point, its certainly worth checking and additionally since you already have a few allergies its probably more than possible you are also allergic to some non food items... these could be anything from cleaners or air fresheners etc. Personally I'm allergic to lavendar (which is a bit of a joke since its meant to be a natural hypoallergenic but hey) ... I'm even allergic to synthetic lavendar ... which is put in air fresheners etc. so it must be some weird component..

Don't just absent mindedly wipe them off the kitchen towel, which will then be contaminated. That kind of thing.

Pauliina

This is the problem I find.... not specifically kitchen towels but everything from cutlery to dishes etc.

Sooner or later an accident will happen ...

Obviously there is a lot you can do to prevent them... but I don't really think they are completely avoidable with gluten in the kitchen.

1/ Seperate shelves etc. are a good start... still.. I find guests etc. put stuff away when Im doing stuff ..

2/ Really no gluten flour ... its a timebomb... you wouldn't keep a bag of anthrax in the kitchen ... and the problem with flour is its so easily airborne..and next to invisible... so if you just get a tiny amount on a worksurface every cloth you use becomes contaminated etc. PLUS you put down a condiment jar etc. and the bottom gets contaminated... next time you handle the bottom your hands become contaminated etc.

Of course you can mitigate this.... wash hands after touching each jar ... throw dishcloths away etc. but in the end I find this actually way more restrictive (life changing) than just banning gluten!

If you have kids getting them to take care when they are hungry, in a rush etc. is hard enough... but if they have friends over ??? all bets are off. I even find the same with adult guests .. not long ago I cooked for about 6 people.. I had home made pate that cost a fortune to make (fresh truffles at $2000/lb) and didn't even get to try it because someone used a knife they had used on their bread (I allowed in) ... so while they watched the bread it just takes one absent minded action to contaminate something. You can throw out a pack of butter or jar of jelly but it it does in my experience get to a point where you start thinking "Maybe this one is OK" ...

Thanks!! I think I'll have DH call the airline before we go. The worst they can say is no!! I was planning on bringing a TON of granola bars. They are DELICIOUS and they travel well.

It's good to know that I can bring food onto the plane! I'm not sure what I'll bring, but something I'm sure!! Thanks for the advice!

I wouldn't rely on what you can take through security ... people are talking here about AFTER security...

My experiences are quite varied... it seems to depend n the airport, mood of staff ... you name it along with constantly changing rules.

A doctors note is always useful, you can always balance the blood sugar with fruit juice .. but are you really going to slip into a coma in 5 hours? I always just plan on not eating on flights out ... its not worth ruining the vacation from day 1... if I can get stuff onto the plane its a bonus, if I can buy something on the plane another bonus ... there is always something you can find to eat... last flight I ended up eating the little butter packets straight from the packet ... the sugar packets etc. and found the peanuts in the duty free were gluten-free. Unfortunately you have to buy them first to check the packets if you fly some budget airline like continental,.

Most people can quite easily not eat for 72 hours so even with blood sugar issues you should be able to manage 7-8. (which gives you time in check-in and stuff) .. think about it you do it every night??? Make sure you eat well before security ... I usually stuff myself .... then anything you get through is a bonus.... If I get really stressed about food I usually take sleeping pills (I have a understanding doctor) .. but this is really only for 12hr+ flights...

For dehydration you can always ask for water .... usually they will give it you a glass at once then if you're in cattle class ignore requests for more with that stare to the far end of the cabin... TIP ... take some sort of tablets, (they might just be vit C) ... but tell them you need WATER to take medication and you get it REALLY QUICK ... alternatively you can take an EMPTY plastic bottle or buy a bottle post security ..then ask them to refill the bottle.... again any complaints just tell them its for medication!

This being said, you might find some gluten-free stuff post security ... etc. etc. plan on not eating and then take anything you find as a bonus .... but last thing to do IMHO is take risks on being sick your whole vacation.

I just have one comment and one question:

2) what is a "red" cooker?

I'm guessing its a real fancy range/auger ... something I'd love. She may well tempt me over for a visit when I get over to the US...

Steve is indeed very knowledgeable. He seems to distrust companies and institutions, including the Church, believing that they are all lying. I don't know how he came to have these beliefs,

The distrust is more complex though really.... and partly something due to my age and where I was born together...

Back in the good old days () .. or where I come from we say "when I was a lad" ... life seemed a lot simpler and business more honest.

My first trip to North America (actually Canada but the observations are still partly N. America because they are TV based) was quite an eye opener. In brief I was amazed just how much companies set out to deceive and trick in advertising...

This might be weird (if you have had this advertising all your life) .... but up until a decade or so ago UK advertising was subtle yet fundamentally more honest than today and basically less "caveat emptor" than today... I remember seeing an advert (lets say it was tylenol) saying how there product was better than their competitors which might cause (x,y,z) lets say kidney problems...

At the time this sort of advertising would have been completely unacceptable in the UK.... because its a pharmacutical ... it is standard and the tablets function is identical... hence their tylenol has just as bad effect as the 'other brand'. This ad would never have been allowed to run on UK TV a decade or so ago because it sets out to misrepresent and deceive...

Time has passed .... and the UK is now a mirror of North American business practice and the global village becomes ever more encompassing... so now I have for instance my cell phone operator trying to trick me into contracts and extra plans. An example is I received a MMS (a multimedia text message) which was basically a news roundup from the cell operator... I didn't want the service so I deleted it... (as I'm sure many people did) ... 3 months later I get an item on my bill, its only a few

Well, they say you learn something new every day. It's always funny learning something new about my own faith from a professed atheist !

I am right about the wheat part .... right about the "why" of the use of unleavened bread in the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church .... but I learned today that the Eastern Orthodox, along with the Eastern Rites of the Roman Catholic Church, use leavened bread.

There also is no question of the validity of leavened vs. unleavened .... it's a matter of licit or illicit ... but using another substance than wheat is invalid.

Manna:

"--And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it" (Numbers. 11:9).

"The people scattered and gathered it" (Numb. 11:8).

"And the people went out and gathered a portion every day" (Exod. 16:4)

However

Joshua 5:11-12 And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day. 12 And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year. (KJV)

The Interlinear Bible follows the text of the KJV. The word translated as old corn is the Hebrew word

I am the one who makes the kids lunches (generally sandwiches). I'm probably contaminating myself regularly. At 12, it may be time to put them in charge of that part of the lunch making.

I did all sorts of baking at Christmas with gluten flour (and some gluten free baking), time to rethink baking for the family. It can't hurt them to have their treats be gluten free (they are most of the time anyway). I will have to see if my non celiac friends would like to be gifted with my plethora of gluten flours (I used to do alot of bread baking at one time). It seems so obvious, now, that I shouldn't have them in the house.

My husband grew up eating schnitzel (Austrian parents). I make these occasionally. I prep mine first (rice flour and gluten free bread crumbs) put on a plate and wrap in plastic then I prep for the rest of the family. I always have mine cooked first then we take the glutened ones and cook them second. Does this sound alright?

When making pizza, I make mine first and place it on my peel (it hasn't had gluten on it) and put it directly on the stone (it had been used in my bread baking but not since I cleaned the oven with the stone left inside - it came out amazingly like new). For the rest of the family I use a sheet pan (but again I have been making these from scratch). Should I stop making pizza dough? I'm thinking I should. What do you think about buying already prepared dough and just rolling it out, rather than starting from scratch? Or is the risk too high?

I'm starting to feel less overwhelmed. Thankyou everyone for all the suggestions and insights. They have not fallen on deaf ears.

pre-made dough sounds like a step in the right direction...

most old hands have already heard this story... but Ill repeat it...

For a long time I had a mixed kitchen .. and for along time i had niggly stuff bordering on glutening but not quite full blown...

One night I made pasta, two pans, two spoons etc. and halfway through my pasta spirals I found a shell.

I have no idea how... no recollection of being anything but careful but somehow I messed up...

Several months ago I concluded that I am gluten intolerant (and have been lactose intolerant for years). On 3 occasions in the last month I have felt ill an hour or two after eating ham. The ingredients do not list any gluten ingredients, however ingredients have included "Natural Flavours" and "Smoke Flavours".

Has anyone else had adverse effects with Natural or Smoke Flavours?

I live in Canada - would they need to list gluten if it was an ingredient in one of these mystery flavours?

Thank you!

Laws aside.... I have found cooked hams to be russian roulette....(thanks Northern Elf)

1/ They inject gluten based thickeners in some European ones because it helps them slice more thinly without tearing.

2/ Smoke flavours (and your using the European/Canadian spelling so so will I) are usually malto-dextrine. US Malto-dextrine is safe, European malto-dextrine often isn't.

As I often say "never knowingly hide gluten" means they take great pains not to find out.

In the UK one supermarket say's "Never knowingly undersold" ... another chain has "Pricewatch" where they list prices at rivals....

The latter is far easier to prove... the former offer to reimburse you if you prove it... the trick is what they are willing to accept as proof.

I view it like Sale items... some are genuine, some are seconds and some are basically items they put into one store for one month at an inflated price simply in order to say "reduced x%' and have a disclaimer in the smallest letters possible.

The motto is read the small print....

No, it's a "depends" . . . guess maybe you're not that brain foggy

It' just an indication of how much gluten it took to cause damage (in that particular study). So it really depends on how much gluten was ingested. I would also say that many people on this forum will have gluten reactions to a fraction of what that study indicates. What I don't know, is if you have a reaction, does that automatically mean you have caused damage? I think some people would say yes. This FAQ "implies" NO (or at least, that was my interpretation).

Gotta agree....

There are quite a few people here who have permanent damage other than villi....

As to what is one gluten-too-far ... I'd say you can never tell.

It depends for instance how far you wanna include other things... for instance "deaths due to alcohol" more often than not includes traffic accidents... well I certainly think being glutened can contribute to a traffic accident ... The basic 'gut reaction' so to speak itself has caused me to do stupid things ... or pull over where I wouldn't usually ... lets face it noone is going to drive normal with poop running down their leg...

but that's just one side... I certainly act less rationally well glutened ... perhaps I'll get stabbed for being blunt to someone ??

But the extended stuff aside.... I view it like the risks from smoking... some of the effect is cumulative and other is per-incident.

Whereas it might take morn than one glutening to damage the villi beyond repair what about the thyroid or neurological damage...

Is a small CC really any less bad than eating a whole Pizza?

I honestly don't know and I'd GUESS in some ways yes and others not...

Bottom line is try not to take unnecessary risks but don't beat yourself up if you make a mistake.

Just curious here. The only thing discussed as actual physical food in John chapter 6 are manna and barley loaves.

The definition (or translation) of the word "manna" is "What is it?" because according to tradition that is what the Hebrews said when they came out of their tents that first morning and found it all over everything for them to gather up. (Sort of like Mikey and the Life cereal - "What's this stuff?")

But I digress . . .

Barley loaves are, well, barley loaves, which probably tells us that the event took place during the time of year shortly after the barley harvest when barley was available (and before the wheat harvest, which came next - see Ruth 2:23) and also maybe that the boy with the basket of loaves and fishes was poor as barley was less costly than wheat.

Anyone fluent in Hebrew is more than welcome to jump in here and provide insight on the original words used for "bread" as in "bread of life" "bread of God" and "bread from heaven."

Which sums it up pretty well....

The surviving gospels are just what was chosen to be in the NT. They were also badly translated in the first instance but non of that actually matters if you believe that Paul, John or any of the founders were more worried about the ideals than the details.

Way before the Catholic Church became the Catholic Church in pre-nicean times people pretty much took communion or not in different ways. I can't see how it matters 2c if its wheat or barley ... specifically since wheat at the time of Moses was not the same as Wheat at the time of Jesus which is no longer the same wheat as today....

Moreover under Roman rule "wheat" became the most basic staple of currency ... prices varied enormously and Syrian Wheat (The Roman province encompassing Judea and Isreal) was one of the cheapest ... (only North african grain was priced lower) ...

These prices are very well known ... they were recorded just like barrels of oil are today with the same indexes (Well WTX wasn't discovered but different oil qualities have different prices) and the prices are part of historical record.

So far as Rome was concerned at the time of Augustus 'wheat' had one purpose, to feed Rome and the Legions.. and it didn't matter if it was strictly Barley,Rye or anything else that could be made into bread....

Moreoever I'm sure CC existed in 33AD every bit as much as today....

which probably tells us that the event took place during the time of year shortly after the barley harvest when barley was available (and before the wheat harvest, which came next - see Ruth 2:23)

And all the grain would be stored in the same warehouses and CC would occur... (Jumping forwards to AD 33 here) ...

The notion that the bread broken by Jesus would have been 100% wheat seems unlikely.... its just described as wheat... in much he same way as we talk about "corn gluten" today... The Apostles were not agriculturalists, had Peter specified a specific fish at the feeding of the 5000 I'd be more happy to trust his professional opinion that that of John on a type of grain which was bought by a baker already ground to flour and sold to someone who put it on Jesus's table.

In the Catholic Church it's still unleavened bread made from wheat.

This stipulation is somewhat more recent than :

1/ The passover (by a thousand + yrs depending which timescale you believe)

2/ The use of unleavened bread specifically was not introduced until about 1000AD... before the schism both types were used .. and the Eastern Orthodox Church still uses leaven bread,

(like I said the Devil is in the details)

As a point of recorded Church history Pope Leo IX's papal forces were defeated at the Battle of Civitate in 1053, when led to the imprisonment of the Pope by the Normans whom themselves were busy retaliating tit for tat over the letter from Leo of Ohrid criticising Western practices of eating non Kosher food and using leavened bread ....

So in many ways this comes down to a set of trivial arguments between East and West ... before Leo Ohrid criticised the west noone cared if it was leavened or not... and it was only a knee jerk reaction in the opposite sense that made the Catholic Church use unleavened...

A millenium later we forget the reasons for this and only see the edicts.... when it is the really the result of petty arguing and political power plays of the 11th C.

The excommunication of Leo Ohrid and hence the term "Prosmymite" hereitcs, is invalid since the pope had already died before Humbert of Mourmoutiers delivered it.... hence he had no authority and it is questionable whether his serving the papers so to speak was even the original intention of Leo IX... and if the papers would even have been served if he had not died... (and we will never really know)...

Which brings me back to how trivial it really is....

The Catholic church was more than happy to accept unleavened or leavened as valid before it was criticised ... so one has to presume that the communions taken with either before this are equally valid and if they are then why not the ones after?

I'm not entering this discussion to defend the church. For one, I don't consider myself Catholic, although I grew up one and my family is Catholic. Many times as a youngster, I rode my bike to school early to help the priest say 6:30am Mass for the Nuns in the Convent. Yes, I was an alter boy.

Secondly, I don't see where anyone is being denied communion. It is offered. You can choose to accept it, or not.

The church has doctrines that are many hundreds of years old. They take them very seriously, no matter how "unpopular" they may be. There's no "what's the big deal" or "just get over it". When I hear those kinds of statements, I'm reminded just how ignorant non-Catholics are of the Catholic Church's teachings and beliefs. War's have been fought, King's excommunicated, Queen's beheaded, many new christian donominations started over such things. No, they wouldn't just "get over it"!

best regards, lm

I think for one people would get less upset if they separated dogma and doctine from faith ....

The problem with organised religions is that they by definition believe their dogma/doctine is correct and hence everyone else is wrong.

The reality is that the Devil (so to speak) is in the details.

The record of the catholic church speaks for itself, not only has the odd queen been executed .. hundreds of millions have been tortured and killed over the details ... yet the Catholic Church like more or less all the others is full of caring and compassionate people...

As Larry mentioned, many new denominations of the Christian faith have been formed and they have been formed over the details. Pretty much all of them have the same core values and beliefs... and even within each denomination the weight given to each part of the details varies enormously.

Faith is Faith ... if you believe that then you are halfway to overcoming the details...

If you believe that God created he earth and all that ... then eventually God created celiac disease.

If you believe God is instrinsically Good then God would not have you hurt yourself because of some detail ...

The bottom line is the Catholic Church (and it is far from alone in this) is essentially a business which is wrapped up in its own rules and doctrines.

A latin mass can be a beautiful thing for example but I fail to see why it is used? Surely if it was to be said in any language (other than one we all understand) Aramaic or Hebrew would be more correct... yet at times the importance of a latin mass has been enough to kill people over.

If you view the Church as an organisation in the literal sense then it is just that.. it organises, it sets standards and rules etc. and despite some pretty bad stuff in the past it mostly manages to set good rules that help society... it is however a HUGE organisation and the rules change and evolve slowly but they do change. Whereas once you would be burned alive for the idea the world was not flat or that the earth circles the sun this is now not only accepted but encompassed by the Church... it just takes time...

Carla is correct we are both promoting compassion and this isn't an argument but a discourse of ideas.

The Church is an organisation ... hence talking about it being compassionate or not is not really productive. People are compassionate or not, organisations are simply the formal expressions of those people in the organisation ... the Church is a collection of individuals some of whom are compassionate and doubtless others who are not... simply belonging to (or not belonging to) an organisation does not make an individual compassionate or not.

If you TRULY believe in the new covenant then what happened to all the heretics burned alive for suggesting the earth was round or circled the sun? In the meantime what will happen to those who do not take the communion wafer ..? Imagine the Church does catch on... (and sooner or later it will) then surely we will look back and put these people in the same category as those burned as heretics for expressing opinions the Church now accepts as fact.

The bottom line is arguing over church law, be it cannon law or a papal bull is somewhat pointless as some will view one item as more important than another...

I AM SURPRISED by the responses! I have no problem bringing my own food into a restaurant. You can not send it back to the kitchen, of course! A few restaurants will only let you do it if you order something (even with the allergy. I have sometimes ordered a side salad and brought my own dressing for it. Or you can order a side that only costs a dollar or two and not eat it! But if one is rude or doesn't, I won't eat there. I tell everyone I know and we won't go there. They will not get my business! (There is a bowling alley that we will not go to for this purpose...we drive an additional half hour for one that allows us to bring in what we want and in return I make it clear to any other customers that it is only because I have an allergy because I would not want the owner to have to deal with others complaining!

Anyway, I would try telling the people you work with about this and try choosing better restaurants. A few that are common and actually HAVE GLUTEN FREE MENUS are Outback (MY FAVORITE!!!), Olive Garden (sorry no pasta), and Carrabas. All of these places allow you to bring in your own bread and I have always been very well taken care of at them! OUTBACK EVEN HAS A gluten-free BROWNIE!!!! I had my wedding reception there for that very reason! Good luck and God Bless....PS, you should try making homemade bread. I make great sandwiches now that doesn't have to be heated to taste good!!!

Like someone else said earlier ... once you ASK you put the waiter (on minimum wage) into a decision making process that they probably can't win in some places. It all depends on the owner/manager ... (of course) but in many cases they are not going to be asked to explain why they let you bring your own food ... they simply get a black mark.

Its unfortunate but true that most people employing people on minimum wage don't expect them to think for themselves .. (and this completely ignores the fact many people paying their way through college on minimum wage) .. its just simply that this is the food industry .. not a family business.

The key word being industry ... they make products and sell them and the fact you consume them on the premises doesn't change the model from buying a consumer item... its a case of how many customers can be in - buy - pay and vacate the seat ... and all this is then judged on a scale with other resto's in the chain.

However I agree totally on using the places that do at east cater for gluten-free for several reasons ...

The primary reason is they actually HEARD of it... if the food is safe all of the time is a different question but you are in a much better position dealing with a resto that at least acknowledges it.

The allowing food in position is IMHO far more complex... I think condiments and bread rolls is a different ballpark to taking in a meal...

Some experience and stats...

For the Hotel Business a major survey last year (weighted but not exclusive to US hotels) reported that 26% of Hotels lose money on F&B (Food and Beverages).

I know lot of private resto owners in Paris and the margins are very slim... and as reported in a UK food magazine a month or so ago (which I picked up in a hotel office while waiting for someone) .. The current fad in the UK of pubs offering food is not to do food but an act of desperation to draw in clients ... there was a scathing insider article on this in the previous month and I got the issue with responses...

All in all .. really the only people consistently making money in serving food seem to be those who treat it like an industry in the Adam Smith/Henry Ford sense of the word. The way to consistently make money is to get as many clients filling as many seats as possible for the shortest possible time. The seats are the production line of the auto plant... and the longer a client stays the lower the profit as the staff costs are static.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the owners... like you and I they are just trying to make a living however to do this they have to be fairly hard nosed about business. One of the sadest things for me is that my favorite independent resto's are continually closing... going out of business ... and the ones I don't really like but ... keep on going.

It is not until you pay a premium (and a large one) to go to a top end starred resto that this model changes...

Good on ya for the bowling alley... and I do similar things.. the problem is the one closest to you still has clients... someone here had a great sig with a quote from Ghandi.... saying (paraphrasing) that it is the action not the reaction that is important even if we do not see the results in our time...

Well Ghandi was a good bloke..(read in English accent) no question ... but we can't all be Ghandi ....

I was in French class last Sat and we had one of those "If I were ...." questions. Someone chose "If I were a famous person I would be Ghandi" ... yeah ... perhaps .. I admire what he did but I most certainly wouldn't want to be Ghandi... I'm sure if he were celiac he would turn up and just sit outside on the sidewalk instead of eating but not everyone an be Ghandi or the world would stop turning....

I was off to Guam and wished it was Spanish, or Japanese or Hawaiian or English or even Chamorro.

Never could figure out what they were saying.

On the outward flight (Lon-Houston) my gluten-free meal was missing altogether .. whereas on the way back I got some carrots and several dubious items one of which plainly said wheat flour on the packet...do you trust the dressing when its unlabelled in this circumstance I ended up actually eating butter straight from the packet just for the calories ...

Honestly I wish they would just give up the pretense...

the reason that not every single minor ingredient (less than a particular percentage) has to be labeled (outside of the allergen labeling laws) is to protect a manufacturers proprietary information (the ingredients/recipe of their products). not saying it's not a problem for us, but that's the reason they fight it. (that, and because they will change from time to time when they have supply issues that require they either make small reformulations or shut down a line - the latter being not economically viable.)

Hmm... that's what they say ... somehow I doubt that with today's instrumentation ingredient X can be hidden for long ... hence the problem.. The sum total of money spent analysing food for allergens vs the sum total of money spent analysing food to make production cheaper ...

For the record the F.D.A. is working on a law to label gluten containing foods. I have personally taken the survey of what I consider gluten free etc. So it is in the works, just hasn't happened yet.

Unfortunately this will probably end up being so watered down and toothless as to be useless.

Laws already exist here in the UK for labelling allergens but a single manufacturer has yet to be prosecuted yet plenty flaunt the law.

As a parallel, for many years it was illegal to open most stores on a Sunday yet most supermarkets etc. opened anyway ... they simply paid a fine each week and made more money than they paid. Meanwhile they sacked employees who didn't want to work Sundays .. even though it was illegal for them to be working .. but of course how can they complain when they are not even working legally.

Food companies will do the same.... they will label when and if convenient and when it goes wrong they will (if it ever gets to that) pay fines but most likely pay out of court damages. If anyone does get in trouble over this it will not be the board of directors of Kraft or Unilever but some low down employee who gets sacked to make it look like they give a damn.

The companies themselves make sure that the chain is not auditable .. for instance if they order a chemical additive they will take the one that has no gluten statement above the one that say's gluten-free .or "may contain gluten".. this way if anything goes wrong they are covered ...

Never knowingly hiding gluten means less than nothing... it just means the company will go to some length not to know... and it is not even close to them saying they test/screen their product lines for gluten... it just means "don't ask, don't tell" ...

Lets face it if these companies cared one iota for public health (and I'm not saying they should .. just challenging the precept they do) then 90% of their product lines would be removed...

The major food companies made a policy decision as a cartel to provide food that appears to be healthy. There is a link from this board somewhere to the minutes of one of their annual meetings where they quite plainly say that they need to make the consumer think the food is healthy by re-labelling not by changing the ingredients.

They have at least one food day a week

However, I think if you want recipes then you have to choose.... almost anything can be done if you substitute ... but its somewhat missing the point?

As already mentioned Indian and SE Asian food is probably the easiest for naturally gluten-free along with Mexican you're already doing however at some point you might perhaps need to educate the school.

You could perhaps stress just how much he cannot eat and why ... WHILST stressing he isn't some kind of freak and that 1:200 people have this condition.... In other words EVERYONE in his class will at some point meet another celiac ... some might even be undiagnosed ... and if they already know about it from school the next person they meet with celiac disease will at least meet someone who learned about it at school.

I'm just curious what kind of job MADE you ingest gluten? Most places i've worked, you can just bring your own food.

This doesn't really help if your coworkers also being their own food and spread it about liberally.

Nor is it really so simple....

I'm presently working in serviced offices with a mini kitchenette... when I make coffee I use my own cup and before I use the teaspoon I wash it and clean it with disposable towels... However ... this only just works ... colleages will offer to get me a coffee (instant) and then think I'm being funny when I say I'll get my own ... the other companies sharing the kitchen use all sorts of gluten products ... and everything is put into a shared dishwasher hence all the plates etc. are covered in gluten from the dishwasher and the work surface is covered in breadcrumbs and who knows what so all I need to do is put a teaspoon down.. and then everyone else uses the spoon in the coffee jar... the same spoon that just got a quick rinse after being used to eat glutabix (wheatabix) for instance.

This isn't even touching the compulsory eating out.(in my job).. and trying to explain that I can't eat gluten .. and even when I do eat out how do you cope with a waiter who say's "no problem that's no bread" when you know full well they haven't got it?

I once got sent to an internal conference in a hotel literally in the middle of nowhere. I pre-informed the organiser etc. only to receive a eMail the morning we departed "Just ask the hotel when you arrive"

This was pretty much worse than useless .... the hotel is on a budget ... the company has pre-ordered 500+ of everything... and the hotels reaction "you will just have to pick out any bread" ...

... I had one week with nothing at all to eat but fruit.

What can go wrong will go wrong....

Sharing a kitchen is always going to have mistakes, how many or how frequently you can moderate but you must accept that you will get CC from time to time...

One way to look at it; If you changed gluten for rat poision where would you keep it?

Would you sprinkle it in the toaster ?? Wipe it off surfaces etc.

The problem is gluten/wheat is to most people an innocuous substance... yet it takes the tiniest amount to make us sick.

Imagine you had rat poop on the work surface or sofa... you wouldn't just brush it onto the floor ... yet for non celiacs this is a not untypical way to deal with a odd crumb.. yet the rat poop is much less likely to make you sick, we just look differently at it.

I have spent quite a lot of my life working in labs where pretty much everything is toxic to some degree ... and labs have strict rules. These rules can seem pretty stupid ... and some of the substances that are locked away you can find in any kitchen... (Oven cleaner for example) ... the reason is that sooner or later one thing will come into contact with another.

I have lots of friend who have various burns (chemical and heat) from not following these rules... things just happen when you least expect. In a lab you drop a flask ... in the kitchen someone drops a bag of flour or opens the bread and bits fly out... or you just pick up the wrong dishcloth to wipe it down ... use the wrong spoon in the condiment etc. etc.

If you are very disciplined you can reduce these incidents but you can never really eliminate them.

malodextrin is actually safe.

Only in North America, in Europe it often comes from wheat ...

It sounds like the article made a few positive points, but why the obnoxious headline???

I find it really disturbing that gluten-free diets are being described as "trendy" and "fads." This type of terminology makes people more likely to take gluten-free diets, which for many of us are a serious medical restriction, less seriously.

I can only agree,

Its not like people can't eat what they want .... or that aGF diet might not be beneficial but ... AAAGGG

It just makes it more difficult for us. Firstly getting taken seriously above the babble of "fad" dieters but then on what gluten-free really means. The "fad" dieters can quite happily get CC etc. and not know and the resto's etc. get more confused ... why are we sick when the person ast week had the ame dish and wasn't.. not to mention the "brush of the breadcrumbs and pull out the croutons" brigade.

The hardest thing I find being gluten-free is finding the food ... and his just blurs the gluten-free line ... IMHO

Ha, I was going to mention this but I tend to be a video maniac, so was afraid, lol. I have over 200 excercise videos and yes, it's a great way to learn correct form (mostly, lol) and technique.

I've ordered LOTS of stuff from collage, and yes, love those clips.

YES!!!!

Its OK but it won't give you the same feedback as a good trainer regarding good technique. Even experienced trainers need other experienced trainers to spot flaws in technique .. and its human nature to develop these 'flaws' because it makes things easy for us... its a lot like you naturally limp if you get a thorn in the foot... so we tend to cut certain parts of exersize routines we find hardest to to properly and ironically these tend to be the ones we need most...

I personally find abs and triceps very easy to work out and biceps really hard to do correctly (partly due to old injuries) .. however I will therefore tend to put more into abs and triceps than I do on biceps and do the reps better...

Even though I know this.... it takes a trainer to drill it in (IMHO) .. the same doing back, I find seated rowing (one of the few non-free weight exersizes I do) really hard to do correctly ... its easy to cheat and I can do double the weight or double reps if I do but its no longer the same exersize...

The very nature of free weights (and a big plus IMHO) is they work out more of the body at once... other muscles are used for balance etc. not needed on specialised machines ... however they also give more chance to cheat because of this ... like using too much shoulds for a bench press etc.

I think everyone should train with someone experienced every so often regardless ... just as if we only ever talked to ourselves our speech would become quirkly and less rich...

Personally I prefer training with someone else most of the time .. others prefer working out alone but even then I think regular technique checks with an experienced friend or better personal trainer is a good thing...

If you can't remember how to put together a routine (whichever methodology as there are several) then I'd say getting the technique correct should be #1 before you possibly injure yourself and then miss training for weeks.

Sounds like the gluten free meal on Continental airlines -- with bagels dumped on top of the salad.

Ah.. continental .... yeah couldn't quite work out what language they speak let alone feel safe with the food.

Practically every sign on the plane seemed to be in mixed languages ... starting off in one and finishing in the other ... I don't think I ever saw anything quite so screwed up at 35,000' ... don't get me wrong I can read/understand spanish fine but their inability to start a sentence in the same language as they finish is somewhat worrying for someone carrying you at 35,000' in a tin box iwth wings and an engine...Even those whom have English as a first language seem incapable of actually speaking English correctly... again somewhat worrying when you're stuck at 35,000' with someone flying the plane who would find a written English exam a challenge.

Just to put this into context they were similarly incapable of getting the video screen working on my seat... how hard can this be compared to flying a plane?

the peanuts available from the duty free trolley seem to be gluten-free though!

I discussed this with her and we agreed that she'd do a trial week of gluten-free eating next week, starting on Saturday night or Sunday. I'll have her help me plan out meals for the week so she doesn't feel deprived (and I'll probably get a few gluten-free goodies just for her- just as we did when we first went on Feingold.) Then she'll have some challah on Friday night and we'll see if it negatively affects her behavior.

I still don't plan to restrict what the other two eat away from home, but being gluten-free at home certainly can't hurt them!

Much as it is obviously better the kids are on board voluntarily I think discussing this is somewhat pointless past a point? Look at it this way, are you going to discuss her smoking or taking drugs or tell her?

I realise that is a bit more drastic but if you believe her health is at risk why discuss it?