gfp

fever is normal for getitng glutened....

Dave, all I can tell ya is its like giving up smoking...

lets take em in a different order

1/Moderate to severe depression

2/Irritability

3/Loss of hope

4/Lack of sexual desire

5/Decreased ability to get erections (embarrassing but I'm being honest)

6/Paler skin

1-3 are all depression.... or different ways of wording it...

4-5 are very normal symptoms for depression

6/ Are you leaving the house?

You gotta get past those 10 days .. and you were probably at the cusp... its 3 days apparently for cigs but I think 10 is more like it for gluten. Your body has to start to self regualte all over again....

I can add another 20 broad depression related symptoms... inability to watch Lassie without crying... (embarassing I know)... or even some stupid program...

I personally beleive many of the symptoms of eating gluten are actually withdrawal symptoms...

I didn't do anything to make this change happen either. I just mentally decided that he had six months to get his s*it together or I was out of there. I never threatened to leave. I just stopped talking to him about any of it and did what I needed to do to be gluten-free.

Aha... I beg to differ that you didn't do anything....

and I think this is the best advice you could have given...

I can understand partly why a spouse/parent/child gets sick of hearing about our illness ...

I don't agree with it... but I can understand why.... its a huge shame because I think many of us this is the hardest part.

I think its just information overload and no amount of trying to bring up the subject helps only hinders...

Anyway, take it from a guy.... we get terribly upset when we can't fix things... and feel all helpless. IKn a way every time you mention it ... it just makes him feel more helpless.

Of course leaving crumbs about is another matter.... but I think the big confusion may of us feel at first gets pushed onto a spouse and especially guys are not good at dealing with this... then the resentment grows ... IMHO its not terribly fair or right but the best thing you can do is stop what he considers nagging and moaning and come here and do it! The girls here and most of us guys have a good sympathetic ear... once he's got it oput of his skull that its not nagging and moaning you can work at the other stuff... and hopefully with a little time it will slowly permeate his skull.

I say all that because as a guy known for his stubborness I had my own problems accepting my own diagnosis...

Eating soy as a large part of your diet as a celiac is IMHO just asking for another intolerance.

I'm not rabidly anti-soy.... I just think its one of those things where if you start relying on it as a protein source its asking for trouble.

If it were me I'd take it as a warning shot and stay well away (I just try and moderate soy,)

If you go gluten-free it can be an intial roller coaster...

Once you stabilise then you might start feeling a whole lot better in many ways you hadn't even thought...

At that time if you want a diagnosis you will need to eat gluten again....

If you feel as good as I did it will be the last thng you wanna do.... so I would suggest getitng tested before you get to a point where the thought of eating gluten for a few months isn't such a horror story and will set you back...

Steve... Those pictures are beautiful ... It inspires me to get back to my camera.

Thanks for sharing those.

Nancy

Thanks, my best ones aren't on flickr since I sell them so

I have stayed twice in London in flats with kitchens. Put Self-Catering London into the search engine. Below is a link to the Price Apartments in London. Reasonable prices. Please note that you need to read all the fine print on self catering accomodations. It is not a hotel. It is more like renting an apartment. The cancellation fees are very steep.

Open Original Shared Link

Have a super trip.

This is excellent advice, its what I try and do myself....

In general I find lunch the hardest meal... any major city people are rushed so its the hardest time I find... having an apart-hotel means you always have a backup and somewhere to prepare packed lunches etc. although I have done inventive things with kettles or irons for reheating food its much easier with a mini kitchenette and a fridge...

You can also buy wine etc. and have a gluten-free feast back at the appt if a resto is disspointing or for some reason you decide its not safe... Ive done this a few times myself...

If in Italy or France you can rely on things like DOP or AOC (respectively) Spain also has its own but I forget the name... so San Daniel ham has to not contain gluten or it wouldn't be allowed to be called St Daniel...(or Parma or ..etc.)

Some friends and I are travelling to Europe this summer, and I'm a Celiac... Are there any suggestiongs for travel abroad? I think we will be able to communicate fairly well in each country, as each of us speaks either Spanish or French.

Thanks!

Well I can help with London and stuff but unfortunately board rules prevent me linking to the site I maintain for Paris and I got no intention of rewriting everything so your on your own finding my site (google will find it)

London is getting very good... most major supermarkets carry gluten-free stuff and several chains also do gluten-free food...

My fallback is La tasca, ironically Spanish Tapas but you can check their site and find the locations and its always a good fallback...

I can't over recommend Italy for a celiac.... their society actually certifies resto's and diagnosis is SO high you are always assured someone will know what it is, even in a small town one resto will be recommended or be able to cope...

You can buy gluten-free is pharmacies buit also a whole chain of supermarkets opened scpecialising in gluten-free food...

Spain, I don't really know

Beautiful photos - but none of you Steve??? (..and why are you banned from Prik prize photos dare I ask? )

Its a long story, the short answer is in my profile.....

I joined the group simply because I got hundreds of invites... silly really bowing to peer pressure but its kinda flattering...

Anyway I just accepted an "invite" and thought little of it until some script banned me for not inviting enough other people to the group! Personally I find that kind of activity a bit viral... its like pyramid marketing... so I thought nothing of it but it was damned hard work deleting all my photo's because you can't just use the group "delete my photos from this group" type tools...

So I mailed the admin asking him to remove all my photo's and he just said tough... you can rejoin if you invite X amount of people? He/she presumably gets a lot read the link to see how the admin delights in suspending people ....

Open Original Shared Link

So I just stopped but I was getting 30-50 inivtations a day .... to join the same group I got suspended from for not hassling others as they hassled me... and it was taking me half an hour a day to delete the damned invites... so I changed my name to reflect this...

Beleive it or not I still get a few invitations but this is diminishing as I just block anyone from that group commenting on my photo's.

It makes life easier, they used to send me mails asking how I did this or that... and I just used to reply thay until they quit the group they would be blocked... now I just block them forever.... I don't need that group, I have plenty of photo's in explore top 500 at any one time and a whole load of people seem to love my photo's...

Thank you all so much. I'll do my best to stay 100% gluten-free but I will need some time to accomplish that. I am only on day three of diet so I am not ready, I need to go pan shopping.

I am concern about my medications though. I take iron daily, Feosol, which has traces of gluten so I have to change it. I also take quarter of klonopin a day which is also not under gluten-free medicine. I have been trying to stop taking it but I developed addiction, I am sure. It's such a small dose but I feel sick if I don't take it. I also have hypothyroidism but my Thyroid meds is compounded, that should be gluten-free.

I'll take all of your advice with appreciation, thanks.

Dalma, your pharmacist should change the meds for equivalents if they exist... often one brand is gluten-free and another not

Gluten addiction is also real ... and the hard part is if you keep getting glutened... because at first it offsets your hard work and also restarts the addiction....

I can just say it gets easier and easier... knowing this (and I promise it does) you can give it a positive spin and knmow whatever you are going through if you stick to it it gets better.....

There is considerable discussion and disagreement on what is enough gluten, I simply personally take the one that works for me...

and that is to make life as simple as possible in the long term over short term....

If you decide to make judgment calls each time you are just IMHO putting yourself through the same stuff hence I make it a rule that I rarely break not to eat "possibly glutened" stuff... which can mean McDo's fries or for me wheat derived spirits etc.

Depending where you live standards change as to what is considered gluten-free.... My personal opinion is take the simplest which is consider gluten-free means zero... then its pretty clear what your dealing with... it can make it a little harder at first but I honestly beleive long term it works out simpler... I could be proven wrong at some time in the future... I just prefer to stick to the safest possible and be ready to be corrected later

Im the same with oats... I just got no wish to try them... what if they affect my antibodies but don't express themselves in my gut?

I might continue posioning myself for 10 yrs after which a 10 yr study says "Oats can cause neuro or thyroid problems incelaics that don't have any GI symptoms from them... or equally the study might prove the opposite... I just find for my own peace of mind and simplicities sake its easier to divide all food into safe and unsafe.

Kraft is now owned by one of the companies that lied about tobacco, but back in the days when most of the lying was going on, Kraft was not connected to tobacco.

Three points to consider in defense of Kraft:

1) Kraft starfted its gluten policy years ago. It was the first major company to do so and without any pressure from anybody to do it. It was voluntary and it remains their policy even when other large companies, like Hershey and Conagra, are retreating and saying they will now list just wheat, not all gluten.

2) One way I judge companies is by the buzz among people with celiac. Frito-Lay tells you if its products are supposed to be gluten-free but we hear lots about people whu have been contaminated. Same with fast food places. I rarely ever hear complaints about Kraft products.

3) Comparing the tobacco and gluten situations is not logical. The tobacco comapnies lied about tobacco partly because they knew they were killing people and that doesn't look too good. But mostly they were lying because they made tons of cash from the product. They figured that even when they got caught, they would come out ahead financially. They were right.

Kraft, OTOH, is marketing their gluten policy to no more than a few hundred thousand people and maybe not even that many (I'm talking about the U.S. only). There might possibly be 2 million celiacs in the U.S. but the vast majority have not been diagnosed. Lying to us and then getting sued when they get caught doesn't make financial sense.

richard

Richard, Im not familiar with when they started the Gluten policy but they were aquired by Phillip Morris in 1985 ...(according to their website Open Original Shared Link

However they were already part of Nabisco ... in the way these companies arte all tied together and as I remember Nabisco was already owned by a different tobacco company anyway..... but I don't really think it matters that much....

Largely because of what you said

They figured that even when they got caught, they would come out ahead financially. They were right.

I agree 200%... by which I mean this was very much the over riding concern...

What I think is partly influenced by my professional life in other sectors but my experience is that when you lie for the company you tend to get promoted ... and that the fall guys are piad off rather well and moved into a different subsidiary. To a large extent because they will then be presenting to different regualtory bodies and sub-comittees etc.

I find the best arguament is as you say the reaction of the community here... but you also have to balance that and people just wanting to beleive and equally as DarlingDeb said

I'll bet if McDonalds had a separate room for the french fry fryer, used pure oil with no additives, and had a special employee that did nothing but cut up real potatoes and fry them right in front of your eyes, some celiacs (and others with food intolerances) would still claim the fries made them sick. There's an infinite variety of scenarios, real and imagined, our sick celiac minds can come up with to think food is not gluten-free. We should have a contest, that would be fun.

Basically its a bit of everything.... we can over react, be over trusting and self convincing and the reverse...

What I'd be interested to see is for someone going from a 100% gluten-free diet... or as close as Viola's post as possible then trying different Kraft (and other brand foods)... or some independent lab testing hundreds...

My problem is the statement itself is a cop out clause... the word knowingly is too vague when you know that the company has a huge legal team ... it doesn't mention testing or how they do this it just says "never knowingly hide gluten" hence it doesn't cover CC or suppliers not writing contains gluten in big letters...

What I sorta feel is they probably do make an effort but only when its convenient so relying on them for foods you consume regualrly might be a risky thing (or not)... the most important thing IMHO would be people regard them as possibly suspicious and then make their own decisions... but at least take the history of the company into consideration.

Anyone wants to see some of my photo's check here

Open Original Shared Link

"You hear about burgers being scooped off the floor and the 15 sec rule..."

What in the heck are you talking about???

Most fast food places have a rule about dropped food, not just McDo's and its if its dropped but not long enough to get cold you just brush it off and package it... its not like its an official rule its just one of those things where pressure of keeping with minimum turnaroud pushes people...

I have a friend worked in a big supermarket chain and they had similar metrics on turnaround... the head office sets rules like the average time per customer should be xx and leaves it up to the stores/individuals to work out how...

As she told me the easiest way is if you scan something twice by mistake its best to just keep going... when she moved from Wisconscin to Florida she got a job with a different chain and they had a complately different attitiude she found far more pleasant.... Its just the rush of modern life and maximising profit that drives this, its no evil plan...

"However anyone trusting Kraft really want to look into the company... My feeling is you can trust them while its convenient for them to tell the truth..."

Can you provide any evidence Kraft has been lying to us about gluten?

richard

Richard, the point is noone has taken them to court over this .... however many took them to court over tobacco.

If you wanted you could phone them up and ask the relevant questions.... which are the ones which are brought up by the "never knowingly hide gluten"statement. I would personally ask what they demand of their suppliers in terms of gluten testing...

and what testing they themselves do.

The real point is taking the statement literally, which is what a court will do...

"never knowingly hide gluten" so you could get some Kraft food, pay to have it tested and find gluten and at the end they are legally in the clear so long as they can say "we didn't know" ....

The bottom line for me is this is the same company that lied about tobacco for 50 yrs consistently... I don't see any point posting pages of court transcripts but its all on public record.

It is also one of the top 3 food manufacturers ... and they lead the food industry lobbies and meetings...

A while ago I foiund and posted the minutes of these meetings where the possibility of marketing seemingly healthy foods was discussed.. If you search the board you should find the exact wording... but the meaning of the wording was that there was a market for food that was perceived to be healthy and whether is is healthy or just perceived to be people will buy into that market if its perceived to be healthy.... the meeting went on into branding strategy etc. whereby they relable the same produce with some "health" type marketing...

The bottom line for me is the company lied about tobacco (proven in court) and if anyone wants to dig I'm sure about lots of other stuff... I don't mean just redirection or subtle misleading I mean out and out lying in court and in front of congressional comittees...

To me it beggars belief that they suddenly changed tac and became completely honest... this is company culture not something they can change with the flick of a switch...

Looks like a gorilla in a wedding dress with an innocent bystander.

lm

It is, the gorilla is advertsing for a gluten-free resto.... I just thought it was funny... I sometimes feel like I have someone dressed outrageously stood behind me when I'm explaining to waiters ... and everyone is suddenly staring ....

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/185/433809188_91b4d4a9d3.webp

Can't decide, is this like when we think we have two heads? Is everyone staring ?

Or is it an add for a service where someone dressed as a gorilla stands behind you as you order making sure the staff don't forget?

I mentioned this to a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago. Her daughter was dx'd a long time ago (I'm still a relative newbie at this). I was very alarmed because I know they go there and that her daughter always gets the fries. She said that it was a huge deal last year, but in the end the GIG (gluten intolerance group) feels that McDonald's is still a safe place for celiacs to eat. I personally will stay away from them, but she swears that her extremely sensitive daughter does not react.

The following is a website that discusses it:

Open Original Shared Link

In the end I think it has to be a personal decision for everyone what they eat and don't eat. I think that if you have been eating them all along and are not reacting, then they are probably ok for you. Just one opinion.

This isn't really arguing, its just a different perspective....

Coming from the UK (originaly) the UK adopted the CODEX 200ppm standard ... At first I thought it was OK and they wouldn't have adopted it if not... we all perceive what we want ... but it wasn't until I went 100% gluten-free that I actually noticed I did react...

Largely, I got tired of over priced bread that tasted like plastic (back then anything half decent seemed impossible)...

In summary after going 100% gluten-free I found myself more sensitive... at one point I thought I was paranoid because I had a list of meds and stuff that I reacted to ... but what convinced me was after new labelling laws I found my list was 100% correct, everytime I had a "I think that makes me ill" it is now labelled as contains gluten or may contain gluten etc.

Back in the UK many many people still eat CODEX bread and mostly swear they don't get symptoms.... I honestly think they are kidding themselves... because I know from here that many of us do, we just don't realise it because we are always that bit off. On top of that most peple on UK sites have IBS as well as celiac... hmmm.. I wonder if they blame IBS when they think they have been gluten-free?

If you ate the fries every couple of days it could be just enough to desensitize you but it could still be doing harm... it might not be but I really don't think anyone knows...

Do a google search on McDonalds and court cases....

McDonalds lie about anything they can... you can find 100 court cases where they have presented misleading evidence or simply lied...

This can be said about any huge company including the one everyone thinks they can trust--Kraft.

I feel the opposite about McDonalds, they have always came forward after an attack on them. I feel the fries are safe, I ate them until I couldn't have potatoes anymore--my sister still eats them. If I was a company under controversity such as they have been, I would "cover my ass" too.

I asked about gluten free vitamins--Puritan's Pride--a worker there got online and verified the vitamin is gluten free. Yet, while I was waiting for her to get the info, I was reading the ingredients again, which I might add, was a exceptionally long list and I found barley grass. Puritan's Pride stood behind their product saying they did not feel the barley grass constituted enough gluten to be considered gluten. Not up to them to determine that for me--do not say it is gluten free if it isn't.

I feel it is a personal judgment call. Many celiac's have no problem whatsoever with McD fries.

deb, that is the bottom line....

I agree not everything said about McDo's is actually true.... however enough of it is from my viewpoint to put them in the I don't trust them bracket. The declaration of the "no beef" for instance is well documented and while I agree we have to be careful about "urban legends" (we have little anough choice as it is) ... also the McDonalds fries DID test positive for gluten... (on the second more sensitive {RAST} test) ....

I support your statement

Not up to them to determine that for me--do not say it is gluten free if it isn't.

In the meantime I think you and I and everyone has the basic right to decide what they consider gluten-free. I would be exactly the same as you over barley grass... including feeling angry...

However anyone trusting Kraft really want to look into the company... My feeling is you can trust them while its convenient for them to tell the truth... however the same company also declared in court on many occaisions that there was "no conclusive evidence linking tobacco smoking to cancer" same company so to me same tactics....

Sometimes companies do change.... but I prefer to wait for good evidence before risking my health....

I think overall Kraft will tell us what we want to hear... and on occaision it will be true and on occaison it will be bending the truth.

The "never knowingly" to me sounds like a cop-out.... you can take it both ways...

You cvould expect they are making all reasonable efforts to find out and say so OR you can think they are actually making an effort at deniability ... that they deliberatly adopt a don't ask, don't tell policy.

Company history seems to suggest (to me) the latter, this is what they did over tobacco, their number one product ...executives tried not to read reports then they could say "I have seen no report that ...." what transpired in court is they had teams of lawyers and assistant to pour over the reports and screen the ones they shouldn't see to prevent purgering themselves.

The company may have changed... but I doubt it, their corporate web site still tries to dismiss "smoking myths" .. they didn't IMHO suddenly say "hey we gotta change and be honest" they just got sneakier and better at cover your ass.

In the end its whatever people feel happy with... but at the same time even forgetting other issues CC is a huge factor in McDo's or any fast food outlet....

i was looking at the mcdonalds web site tonight and according to the site updated as of 03-13-07they are listing wheat as an ingrediant in fries. what a bummer , that was one of the first things i checked in feb when i was diagnosed and was told the fries were gluten-free.oh well back to the drawing board

You want talking down... no problem...

Do a google search on McDonalds and court cases....

McDonalds lie about anything they can... you can find 100 court cases where they have presented misleading evidence or simply lied... some of the stuff they have said isn't even believeable such as the president for McDo Japan saying if Japanese people ate more McDonalds they would be taller and their skin less yellow.... or introducing "healthy options" which have more calories with dressing than a 1/4 lber... look up their declarations about it not containing beef to the hindu community? So they got fined (well donated) but will that stop them doing it again? I doubt it the fine probably wasn't even noticed in their year end tax returns... indeed they probably counted it as a charitable donation and claimed against tax on it...

Is everything said about them true? Of course not.... but enough of it is that I don't trust them.

Regardless of what they say .... I am not going to trust them as a company... its really that simple.

Even if you did trust them... corss contamination is almost guaranteed if you eat there often.... You hear about burgers being scooped off the floor and the 15 sec rule... personally i wouldn't care if it were not that the floor is full of gluten... I'm not that paranoid about a few bacteria...

just to give a little update, about two hours after posting my confession i was in the bathroom twice within a half hour, and it had to be lunch ,cause i was totaly gluten-free for all meals bedfore that.i guess i felt a little weird asking for qp without a bun, but that wont happen again.

Before even reading the rest....

Change your mindset.... look at it like this... you went without all the other stuff and then you ruin it with a single slip....

I don't agree that "lets hope you don't react" because at least now you have the proof you need... we all need confirmation from time to time and you got it so instead of looking back look forwards and treat this as an experiment in your own self confirmation... pull the positives out of it... you reacted and not only did you pay the price but you confirmed you can't do this..

What may help it to try and find the most sympathetic colleage... explain what is at stake in terms of worst case scenarios (a pretty gruesome death) and say how hard your finding it... and ask them to maybe help you steer clear of temptation....

Funny thing.. it might not be your best friend... sometimes the best help can come from someone who just finds it easier to relate to that one thing... but don't be upset if whom you think should be most supportive isn't.. you just need a bit of encouragement and motivational help.... remember what you went without.... if you cave in then this is IMHO largely wasted and brushing off crumbs is pointless... at this point you mightest well eat the bun as well... if you try to think of it like that I find it easier...

I'm not going to eat the bun so why do the next closest thing...????

The fact your posting this.. you know what you did wrong... and that's between you and you... all we can do is encourage and support you but having someone to intervene and say "whoah" can be a big help when this sort of thing strikes...

In the end only you can answer that question because being 100% totally gluten-free is really not possible if you intend to live a near normal life. This means that from time to time we all take some risks and get caught out ....

Now from my standpoint how you control those risks is what is most important... and this counts both health wise and your own physchological well being wise... it's all too easy to let the condition (celiac disease) run your life and not the other way around...

One thing I found really hard at first was knowing what the heck I'd done wrong.... I kept getting glutened and not knowing where from or I would just feel generaly crappy and washed out and couldn't identify why or where...

The two big risks I find are either hidden gluten (stuff inside something else not properly labelled) or cross contamination (CC).. the two overlap but thinking in these terms really helps...

From your post you have educated yourself already about major sources... or you are just like me and always had an interest in what went in your mouth... so obviously major sources like bread and pasta products are obvious... its the stuff which you least expect because of its name is the big gotcha for new GFers... Soy sauce in an example, the name indicates its made from Soy but nearly all commercial non-speciality soy sauce is made with 50% wheat (or barley)...

Then when you think ... what else might soy sauce be in ... it can get overwhelming at first... but don't worry you soon get the hang of it... well 99% of the time... I say that because inside each of us (especailly foodies) is a little devil that sits on our shoulders... you see that great rice noodle dish and think hey..rice noodles .. sounds good and then look for wheat etc. and forget completely about the soy sauce etc. We all do it.... I have a rule to check stuff 3x... once when I pick it up... once when I unpack and once before I cook.... a second opinion is also helpful... so I often ask my girlfriend to check and reasonably often she'll catch something...

Anyway .. now the important stuff.... and this is partly practical and partly physchological...

I find having a 100% gluten-free kitchen indispensible... I do try and eat out when I think its safe but there is an everpresent risk...

I have one resto that the owner is a very good friend, he throws the chef out of the kitchen when Im eating to prepare it himself... but last time I got caught out... or he did... its an accident and accidents happen... I know he would have taken as much care as possible... its just impossible to be 100% safe with breadcrumbs and stuff floating about or using a pan or utensils that have been used for gluten stuff....

However .. I have a safe haven... my kitchen where I can be certain everything (with the exception of some stuff of my gluten-free like cookies which are sealed in tupperware AND plastic bags and labelled with a skull and crossbones... (well my best attempt at one)

One thing I noticed is the symptoms come and go in intensity... they slowly dfade away but over several days/weeks... getting less and less and less frequent ... but WHAM I can suddenly get the full set say 2 weeks later from nowhere...

Before I had my kitchen 100% gluten-free these were constantly mixed up with not knowing.. Did I touch something or my gluten-free use something and not wipe it down.. was it something in the dishwasher or shampoo etc. etc. did she use a pan and then I used it ???

You can drive yourself nuts .... start blaming yourself for being careless etc. etc. and it might just be a freak late-symptom...

So I find I have to take control of the illness... not let it control me....

To this end I replaced all my teflon pans.. all my stainless ones are cleaned with oven cleaner and scrubbed with metal scourers and then recleaned etc. and thescourers thrown away after each cycle...

All my wooden utensils were just replaced and anything suspect given away...

This way I can be assured I can control the diet... if it goes wrong (and it can and will) I can retreat to my safe haven... I think this is doubly important because when your suffering the effects (especially after you have been gluten-free) you are at a low and one of two things happens inj my experience.. you eat what's available and can't be bothered preapring from scratch OR you develop paranoia and Ive given myself eating disorders where Ive been scared to eat anything... I associated all food with being ill for a while and its hell to climb out of...

My heartfelt advice, what I wish I did but didn't is to get a 100% gluten-free kitchen.. no compromises ... if you want to keep the pans you can't effectively clean put them in storage ... etc. as you get experienced you will start introducing new things... and each one you will be ready for.. if you do them all together you've no idea which or what caused the glutening... so your set back to scratch..

I hope this all helps, it is what I would do again with 20/20 hindsight.. not what I did and I'm trying to save you what I lost which was 6 months to a year of my life...

Lots of good posts already....

I'll just add "one step/day at a time" as a direct answer to the question....

What seems overwhelming gradually becomes second nature.... one day you just look back and think how hard it all seemed and how you hardly need to think about it now....

If you drive, think back to the first time you got in a car... specially if it was a stick-shift... all those controls, buttons and stuff yet after a while you jump in and its all second nature.

This is what every MD I've talked to also says. Not because of some huge pharmacy conspiracy, but because if you have a reaction to something, and you've taken an unregulated product, it may be impossible to figure out what caused the problem and/or how to treat it.

This doesn't mean there aren't safe products available, just be careful, and do your research.

While I agree wholeheartedly .... this is definately one case of Sophies choice!

Most of the prescription psychotropics are not particualrly safe either... or that well understood....

Doctors tend to hand them out like candy until a specific one gets banned or more heavily regulated...

Its my opinion as a layman but also the opinion of a friend of mine who's a trained physchiatrist and just happened to have a friend who got put on these drugs that they are pretty risky all round...

After doing my own research I find St. Johns Wort generally a bit safer but obviously something you should do your own research on first.

Okay, Wait

If I have to go off my diet (I have lost 60 pounds) I will.

Congrats on the weight loss but .... at some point you are goig to have to eat real food again??? or are you going to eat the stuff for life?

These things can be a great boost... no question but they are not a magic formula...

If you eat sensibly you should maintain your weight and even loose more....

If you lost 60lbs your over the hurdles and it might just be time to throw away the crutches .....

just something to think about

Hey, Im on the other side of the fence.... but I think its normal....

IMHO you should stand by it and if you want a toast find a cafe....

A different viewpoint, imagine you both quit smoking.... you're craving a cig... would it be fair to buy a packet and not say?

Your support and going along probably is a great boost for your wife.... so why do it?

Just my two penneth....