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gfp

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  • LexieA

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  1.   Alex J said:
    I'm English, living in the US, going back to visit for the first time since my son was diagnosed with celiac. He also has severe allergies to nuts, fish and peas. And our baby has multiple (but less severe) food allergies.

    As far as I understand it, the 'gluten free' label in the UK is not very helpful as it relates to the Codex Alimentarus (surely spelled wrong) which is 200ppm or less. We aim for zero gluten - don't use products made on shared lines, no gluten in the house, etc etc. 200ppm is way too much.

    So I thought that it would be OK anyway, because under EU regs gluten was listed as an allergen that had to be clearly labelled - see here, where it says it must be clearly labelled even if it the source (eg wheat) has been treated to remove it:

    Open Original Shared Link

    So theoretically it could say 'gluten free, contains gluten' (ha ha, or not). But on further reading I'm not sure that's the case. For instance see here - though it does say gluten must be clearly labelled, it says glucose syrup derived from wheat wouldn't have to be labelled as containing gluten:

    Open Original Shared Link

    Having read through the site, it seems pretty clear all four gluten containing grains have to be clearly labelled, but not that clear whether this is the case if they have been treated to remove the gluten.

    Can anyone give me any suggestions on how to proceed?

    Or can anyone suggest a good brand of absolutely gluten free (and nut free) bread? Or of rice milk?

    I'll check out the rice milk, not something I use.

    Supermarket bread you can get the DS loaves in supermarkets. They are wheat free and gluten-free and dairy free. They do contain Soya though.

    As to labelling, READ EVERYTHING.....

    While they should list allergens they often seem to manage to hide them.

    I prefer to find a brand that states (for instance) glucose syrop from wheat and then find another prodct that doesn't or one specifies from corn/potato etc.

  2.   Tim-n-VA said:
    According to that article, they coat the grove that the lid goes into with wheat paste, not the entire barrel. Also, this is just one barrel source. The risk is there but hard to quantify.

    I think you misread it ??? I have to say its not crystal clear but the say the 'crozes' which they say are the "The grooves inside the oak barrel" .. I have to admit I looked at the pictures they had to clarify this as its not so clear...

    It is a bit worrying though.... since they way they word it all makes it sound like a "traditional" way ... which might imply some of the higher end liquors would go for traditional and these are usually the 'safest' ones. (No artificial stuff and traditional seem to go hand in hand?)

  3.   Quote
    Contrary to what GFP claims, there is plenty of research to show that trace amounts of gluten do not harm celiacs, and if you would like to read some of the research on this topic please go to:

    https://www.celiac.com/categories/Gluten%25...s-Wheat-Starch/

    Yet the first article is the Fasano study (with the tabular data removed).

    The missing tabular data clearly shows a 9% reduction (from memory) in Vh/c-d for the 10mg/d group.

    Every time I read one of these studies the wording is always along the lines of "no significant extra damage above...." which is not the same as no damage.

    The Fasano tabular data clearly shows the group with the placebo had increased Vh-c-d ...

    Cynthia Kupper stated in her posts that there was no scientific evidence but that because European morbidity and fatality was not increased it seemed logical that .. (since these people are eating codex starch) the level must be OK.

    This logic is flawed as one of the posters actually said.

    I receive FREE codex wheat bread (if I wanted it) (well it would cost

  4.   RiceGuy said:
    From the many posts on the topic, I'd say most people have a greater sensitivity to gluten as time goes by on the gluten-free diet, such that less and less can cause the same or worse symptoms. But, as long as you don't ingest gluten, you can look forward to better health as the body heals.

    This is true in my experience too.

    I react more quickly and it feels more violently though I think a part of this is psychological.

    As Rice guy say's your general heath gets better and better so when you do slip up you have further to fall.

    It might sound negative but its not really, I think I'm just as ill but it FEELS worse because I'm used to good health.

  5.   i_love_bread said:
    it's my understanding that Kraft will clearly label wheat, rye, barley, oats...someone please correct me if i'm mistaken!

    But its not the same thing.....

    "Processed in a facility ....." is not the same as adding an ingredient.

    Also, until On March 30, 2007 Kraft was owned by the same company is Phillip Morris. (Indeed Phillip Morris Group was renamed Altria group)

      Quote
    # 1985: Philip Morris Companies, a holding company, becomes the publicly-held parent of Philip Morris Incorporated.

    # 1987: Philip Morris International, newly incorporated operating company, acquires the international business division of Philip Morris, Inc.

    # 1988: Philip Morris Companies Inc. acquires Kraft Foods.

    # 2000: Philip Morris Companies Inc. merges Nabisco, a spin-off from RJR Nabisco, into Kraft Foods.

    # 2001: Philip Morris International headquarters are relocated from the USA to Lausanne, Switzerland.

    # 2002: Philip Morris Companies Inc. sells Miller Brewing Company to South African Breweries, retaining a 36% share.

    # 2003: Philip Morris Companies Inc. changes its name to Altria Group, Inc., the parent company of Kraft Foods, Philip Morris USA, Philip Morris International and Philip Morris Capital Corporation.

    # 2007: The company announces the spin-off of Kraft Foods, and will concentrate on its tobacco activity [2]

    # 2007: The company announces the plan to phase out production and eliminate all jobs at the Concord, North Carolina plant, ultimately shutting the plant down by 2010.[3]

    # 2007: Altria announces the planned spin-off of Philip Morris International

    # 2008: Altria spins-off Philip Morris International to shareholders.

    # 2008: Altria moves its headquarters from New York City to Richmond, Virginia[4].

    So essentially the spin off went to the shareholders of Phillip Morris,

    These are the same people who hid evidence on tobacco and are proven in court to have perjured themselves.

    Seriously... would you trust anything they said?

    Spot the lie

    "We have no evidence cigarette smoking causes cancer"

    "We do not hide gluten in our products"

    "The moon is made from pasturised cows cheese but has the lactose removed"

    edits:

    We can hope that the effect of the majority shares held by Warren Buffett might instill some honesty and integrity into this deeply dishonest and untrustworthy company culture but the managers are still the same ones which were employed and lied for Phillip Morris, changing a company culture does not happen in 1 year or 2.

  6.   lobita said:
    They answered it as honestly as they are required to answer it. The ATF jurisdiction on alcohol is the reason why wine companies don't have to list the allergens (like fish or egg that has been used to fine it) that it contains on the label as do food companies now have to.

    But you're right that if alcohol beverage companies don't have to disclose what they are doing, then they don't owe us anything...we just have to pay the price of possibly getting sick. That's the source of my frustration.

    Here's info on some oak barrel production: http://www.thebarrelmill.com/Articles/OakBarrel.html

    Pay attention to the second to last paragraph.

    Lobita, no need for the link for me.... I believe you :D

    Anyway, the problem is that stuff line finings or flavorings etc. can actually change source. So unless a company is REQUIRED to do it then they will always avoid it.

    To be honest my take on liquors is that there are so many we can use as mixers and most taste pretty much the same after coke or mixers are added so why even take a risk?

    I used to appreciate a single malt but again.. why take the risk if I can have an aged 12yr rum or reservada tequila instead?

    For me the problem with liquors or alcohol in general is that its habit forming... (I don't mean in the addictive sense though this is obviously true).. I mean we tend to order automatically. (My local bar I don't even order on the days I think Oh, 'll just have a coke I usually get given my bottled cider before i even reach the bar.)

    Anyway, what I mean is if you usually drink JD and coke then it tends to just come out.... unless you are in a cocktail bar then its not like going to a resto and spending time with a menu... I think we just tend to order 'our usual' whatever that might be.

    So herein lies the problem, if these contain a little gluten (like tiny amount) we might not even react or if we do then well, we get over it BUT because of the nature of alcohol (essentially we buy a specific brand which is pretty much the same in each bar) if we do this even 1-2 a week we are constantly getting gluten.

    If we eat in a resto then of course we take a risk, possibly a bigger one BUT unless we go to the same resto each week we are at least not serially (or should a say cerially) poisoning ourselves.

    Its the same logic with fast food chains ... perhaps McDo fries are OK once in a while but what is the effect (other than the obvious health issues) eating them 1-2 a week?

  7. Well done and good luck.

    I really would take Phyllis's advice onboard!

    I think its generally polite in a lecture to say if you have to leave but .... there are certain limits. If you bring this up when you have time get it all sorted and above board then you can have the door seat reserved (officially but quietly and without fuss) and then if you need to leave you can just leave and the lecturer will know why and not ask embarassing questions.

    Another bonus is you could get access to staff/disabled loo's.

  8.   Mrs. N said:
    I'm thinking that some chips are made from just plain wheat flour. :(

    I, too, have lost Mexican food, so I feel for ya!

    Possibly but often its just a little wheat flour added. (not that this helps us)

    Here in the UK its next to impossible to find a corn tortilla without wheat. There are 4-5 major brands and only one of them has 100% corn in the corn tortilla's. Strangly the taco shells of the same brands use wheat in the tortilla are 100% corn???

  9.   Beth in NC said:
    It's quite possible I had old information about the cheese. There is so much to wade through. But I have read that about the chips in Mexican restaurants, but I'd be hard pressed to find it right now. It sure isn't something I'd make up!

    Th cheese thing is quite common, some grated cheeses bought in supermarkets do the same.

    Still another great comment

      Quote
    Restaurants do not add flour to chips to keep them from sticking.

    Wow, its good to know that someone has visited every resto in the US and checked.

      Quote
    Also, with the shredded cheese, using flour to prevent clumping is now pretty much a celiac urban legend. If you look at labels, you'll see that pretty much every cheese uses cellulose to cut down on clumping. Cellulose is gluten-free. If they did use flour, at least in the U.S. the wheat would HAVE to be listed in the ingredients.
    As I understand it only NY (and I think now one more) requires restaurants to list ingredients (on demand). There is a website somewhere where they look at nutritional values for food in fast food places and they use NY branches of chains to get this info. If a chain doesn't have a NY branch they actually say so and that they can't get this info.

    Still ignorance is bliss for some

  10.   nikky said:
    the sad thing is, i cant really say to my freinds that if they had coeliac they wouldnt have a choice, because my dad has probably got it and is already hinting that he might not go completly gluten-free " just because i see the doctor doesnt mean i have to listen to them", im not sure how much he means but i know for a fact if i had that attitude he'd give me the biggest talking too of my life

    Well, your Dad isn't you ..... and they don't need to know this!

    Comments like they are making are just plain stupid and insensitive. You're obviously a bright girl so why associate with these idiots?

    As for being shy and worrying about hurting peoples feelings...

    Treat people as THEY treat YOU....

    They are not shy about hurting your feelings .... indeed they are deliberatly doing it. Give the lard-asses the same back!

    "Oh I'd die if I couldn't eat Pizza" ... "yeah sure lard-arse cos you can't control what you put in your mouth..or it seems what comes out of it.. "

    if they argue, tell them, they know you have celiac disease, they know you can't eat this stuff so the only conclusion you can draw is they are deliberately taunting you and the only reason you can think of is ... that they are fat and want everyone to think they are healthy by telling someone who is actually a healthy weight they are too skinny.

  11. As Mango said right at the beginning.

    STOP

    STEP BACK

    RELAX

    Its not an issue of what you can eat but what you can prepare.. because there are literally thousands of choices.

    You need to take some time to stock up on essentials. If you don't have the time you need to MAKE IT. If you don't you will trap yourself in the exhausting catch-22.

    Buy a slow cooker (stockpot) and make double or treble portions and then freeze half. Use the little bags and you can then just pull one out and take it into work, take your own bowl and spoon or you can buy those microwave-safe freezer bowls.

    I find microwave-work-existance is easier when you can make an all-in-one meal like a stew since rice never seems to microwave well.

  12. The problem is its a risk but one we can't quantify.

      Quote
    but find myself buying name brands (like Kraft) because of their reputation of proper labeling

    Do Kraft actually label as such?

    (serious question.... just because they don't make the CYA doesn't mean that they don't do it.)

    Really it all depends on what the 'wheat product' is.

    Say its something containing Soy Sauce that contains wheat that is manufactured in the same factory as some other meal.

    So long as they don't share lines the risk of contamination is quite low, barring accidents the soy sauce isn't about to jump into the air, go down a corridor and jump into another production line.

    They might however use the same production line for two ready meals, one with Soy sauce and one after... then it depends how well its cleaned and at what stage the soy sauce was added...

    On the other hand wheat flour is almost certainly going to jump in the air and run down the corridor to the next line.

    The frustrating part is we don't know which of these it was or any other combination so on the whole I say better safe than sorry..

  13.   curlyfries said:
    ????????

    When I first found celiac.com, I was new to celiac and doing stupid stuff like eating the cheese off of pizza. I read post after post, old and new. Anything I wanted to know, anything I was feeling, I found in those threads......and I learned A LOT. Sure celiac is hard, but when I read everyone else's questions, their complaints, their sorrow.......I knew I was not alone. I read for a couple of months before I even joined and asked my own question, and I know many other members started out the same way.

    This is EXACTLY why we all are so protective of newbies....

    Is eating cheeze of pizza stupid? I don't think its stupid, its just badly informed. I prettymuch think 90% of us would be doing this unless we found this board or others like it.

    This and similar issues are just not the sort of thing a Dr or GI are going to tell you.

    Being gluten-free is not so much hard as about self education. You can find that info in a few places but YOU always have to find it, it doesn't come looking for you.

      Quote
    BTW.....there are a lot of safe foods that do not actually say gluten free.

    Again .... lots of people get diagnosed and are given the impression that they can ONLY eat specially controlled dietary foods.

    Here in the UK its specifically a problem as the dangerous non-profit CUK get in as soon as your diagnosed and give out leaflets pretty much implying all you can eat is food from their sponsors... without boards like this one many people would never realise.

      Quote
    My point is this.......granted, a lot of newbie questions seem to ask the same things over and over again. And some of it could be avoided if they would search more. But.......we all need to practice tolerance. I remember how frantic I felt in the beginning when I thought I was doing it right, only to learn that there was much more to being gluten free than I ever imagined. Many of us can not vent to the people in our lives because they don't want to hear it. This is a safe and comforting place........at least it should be.

    Most of us can vent here because most everyone here understands the issues.... who else would?

  14. The best pizza I had was very simple.

    It was just a mixed gluten-free flour (tapioco, rice and potato), salt and water cooked in a wood stove.

    I had this same mix in three seperate gluten-free pizzeria one in Rome and two in Napoli, they swore this was all that was in it.

    This however makes an Italian Pizza which is not usually to American tastes... and is perhaps even a little harder than the normal italian pizza.

    The Neapolitan base is more similar to American Pizza (though still a lot less doughy)

    6 g active dry yeast,335 ml water, 375 g all-purpose gluten-free flour, 6 g sea salt 6g Xanthan gum...

    In a large bowl, dissolve yeast in water. Stir in 2 cups of flour and salt; mix well. Stir in the remaining flour, 1/2 cup at a time, beating well after each addition. When the dough has pulled together, turn it out onto a lightly floured surface and knead until smooth and supple, about 15 minutes. Place dough in bowl dusted with flour cover with plastic wrap and refrigerate overnight.

    Deflate the dough and turn it out onto a lightly floured surface. Divide the dough into two equal pieces. Roll dough out to half of its final size. Let rest for 10 to 15 minutes (while you prepare desired pizza toppings). Preheat oven to 450 degrees F (230 degrees C).

    Now you have to roll it out, the traditional spinning method doesn't work well for gluten-free . Place dough on a baker's peel sprinkled with cornmeal or a lightly greased pizza pan. Spread with desired toppings and bake on a pizza stone in preheated oven for 8 to 10 minutes, or until golden brown. Let baked pizza cool for 5 minutes before serving.

  15.   JNBunnie1 said:
    GFP, please understand that this is not a criticism, but you are very hard to understand. You ramble and sort of just expect us to be able to follow your scientific analogies. I totally didn't get half of that post. I think what you're trying to say is that-quote-

    "Perhaps 'Mild Case' is the wrong way to put it, but I use what shampoo I want, what toothpaste I want, and kiss my girlfriend after she eats a sandwich."

    This means you are NOT gluten free. Period. Just because you don't feel side effects doesn't mean you should encourage other people to be less diligent. Like GFP said, we are very protective of newcomers. That's all that's happening here.

    Well i think you put it better....

    As you say this is NOT gluten free.... it's perhaps gluten-lite.

    What I am trying to explain is most of us actually started out like his. We simply didn't realise and our MD didn't know or think to mention it.

    Most of us actually got a lot better on gluten-lite ... but its not the end of the story. Many people here still had problems and then tried 100% gluten-free or CF-lactose/soy free as well.

    It seems that the worse we are the more we need to cut out to get slightly better.

    How can I put it simply....

    Its like taking a completely unhealthy person: someone who has a lifestyle based round hard rugs, alcohol abuse, smoking, junk food and no exersize.

    They give up one of these and say 'hey now I'm healthy'.

    Exersize is a waste of time, eating healthy a waste of time etc.

  16.   ravenwoodglass said:
    Tried to go to the first link but that is only available in the UK. The second link did work though and has info on not just the ingredients but what they actually are. I will be saving that one in favorites.

    We have a program available on BBC here in the US where a woman helps people who have out of control issues with food. Can't think of the name of it at the moment but they did a segment on a couple who lived on junk food. They spread a table with the ingredients of stuff they ate. Ususally she just piles a week worth of their consumption in front of them. That's shocking enough but when she put those ingredients out there for the hot dogs...well let's just say it was nauseating. I doubt the woman ever ate another one.

    Sorry, they must have put an IP restriction on it.

    Give me some time and I'll try and think of a way of bypassing it ... if anyone is interested in watching that is.

    They did some 'sausages' on this one. Well they were not even allowed to be called sausages because they need to contain 23% meat minimum so they called them 'bangers' ( a british slang term for sausages)..

    He reverse engineered the ingredients from the labels and with a food scientist and then sets about getting the ingredients.

    He goes to a butcher and asks for "beef connective tissue" and the butcher tells him he throws it all away.... can I get some from the bin he asks ...

    Anyway, the butcher lets him then he finds out he can't sell it as food legally because its been in the bin. So he goes back, explains what he's doing and the butcher gives him some ... he repeats this for all the ingredients ... until he has enough to make sausages and then goes to the 'good food show'.

    He actually gets a butcher to help him grind the cartilage and stuff up... (at the show though they wreck the commercial grinder) and then they make the 'bangers' and give them away.

    He has all the raw ingredients laid out in proportions and then shows people what they just ate....

    I was in stitches watching it.... he then goes to the wholesaler who sells them to the catering industry and asks awkward questions... the TV chef Gordon Ramsey endorses the wholesaler so he's at the food show and he goes up to ask his advice on how to grind cartilage up to make the bangers he endorses. Gordon is not very happy (they had several threats from his lawyers)...

    Eventualy the nutritionists tells him the food is unhealthy but he can make it more unhealthy by adding hydrogenated fats so he makes the sausages into pies using a hydrogenated fat crust.

    He pays a marketing company for the marketing and comes up with a nice package and meaningless claims (the most ridiculous of which is dolphin friendly)

    Then he goes to a supermarket and tries to sell them.... when they say they don't sell items with those ingredients he pulls out items from their shelves containing them.

    Finally he decides that he can't sell them to the public with the packaging so he sees the marketing people and gets told he can sell them to caterers since they don't have to reveal the ingredients in served food.

    All in all.... it made me glad I don't eat that crap.

  17.   lsmall05 said:
    There are indeed less severe cases of celiac, consult your doctor.

    I am in no way encouraging people to eat gluten, as I stated EAT GLUTEN FREE. There does have to be a realization though that you are going to screw up without even knowing it. I can eat something and not feel a thing, but I know what is being done, so I won't be doing it again.

    You have all assumed that I feel no depression, not helplessness at times. Is it possible for a Celiac patient to not get frustrated at times?

    Lastly, I guess I missed the point of the forum. I see now it is more about complaining with other people with Celiac than to be a support forum for those that are struggling. Being negative just makes you want to eat a glutenous cookie.

    I think you missed to point but not how you think....

    You have never been 100% gluten free so you don't really know what your missing. (I don't mean this badly read the rest)

    If we take my aunt, she would have told you she was healthy, no problems from smoking... etc. etc.

    If you asked about her skin she would say "too much sun" ... if you asked about her cough... "just a little cold right now" ...

    Unfortunately, for my aunt by the time she realised it was almost too late. Actually her case is relatively mild so in some ways she's lucky. The point is (and I know you have commented on peoples sig's) ... there are actually a lot of people here who were asymptomatic for a long time. During this time they did a lot of damage to their bodies.

    Its paradoxical perhaps that 10 yrs ago the strongest reason for a gluten-free diet was cancer risk... and today that is the last of our worries (mostly).

    Most of us here took years to be diagnosed, most of us had many other problems other than loose stools.

    Almost all of us started out thinking "I've been eating it for years, if I remove major items I'll be fine"

    Those who actually try a 100% gluten-free diet mostly find they suddenly get rid of symptoms they didn't realise they had.

    I never realised my nerve damage was from gluten.... etc. and its got a lot better but its not completely better and I suspect at my age never will be. My migranes however have disapeared almost completely and even if I get one (in a blue moon) the severity is nowhere near as bad.

      Quote
    My original post was directed at the newcomers, not those of you that have been dealing with it for years. If you've had it for years, you know there are alternatives, more and more everyday.

    This is the exact reason you received the response you did.

    We are a community here and we are as protective of newcomers as we are about old timers.

    Nowhere is it written we must not encourage newcomers to brush the crumbs off a burger or peel cheese of a pizza. It is a community opinion we do not encourage new comers to damage themselves out of ignorance.

      Quote
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: You should get a doctor that knows Celiac, and you should stick to the Gluten Free diet. Period. However, doing this is not the hardest thing in life for me.

    For those of you that are constantly worried about everything Glutening you, I do feel very sorry for you. I'm living life to its fullest and have learned that I need not be overly worried about these things. (I've consulted my doctor and he agrees!) I think more and more we will be seeing Celiac diagnosed sooner, and not everyone will have developed major health consequences from years of small intestine abuse. They need to know that small changes make a big difference!

    Again you give a non sequitur,

    You say stick to a gluten-free diet yet say you do not?

    You put faith in a doctor who encourages you not to be gluten-free?

    Most of us here had lousy information from our Dr's because they told us what your Dr is telling you.

      Quote
    You have all assumed that I feel no depression, not helplessness at times. Is it possible for a Celiac patient to not get frustrated at times?

    Do you get depressed because you have celiac disease or do you get depressed because you eat gluten and damage your endorphin receptors?

    Has your MD explained this cause and effect? Probably not ... because most MD's that think they are celiac disease aware are not.

    Perhaps we should not be so hard, afterall most of us started out like you.

    I certainly had no intention of being super-sensitive. Then again I had no hope of ever getting rid of the migranes that have plangued me since childhood. Quite honestly, a little diarrhea is not the end of my day. A few cramps is not the be all and end all and I don't worry much about the cancer risks because they are quite small.

    What makes me so pro 100% gluten-free is the complete difference I feel.

    If I feel helpless it is because of popular medical opinion and lack of knowledge about celiac disease.

    I have no problems with the diet, the inconvenience of not getting a slice of pizza or sandwich can be annoying but I really have no problems after 5 years with eating gluten-free as regards the foods I eat.

    You are a nice breath of fresh air, please don't take offence BUT....

    You are perhaps the person turning up at the accident blackspot where people have laid out wreaths to dead children saying "hey but the view is lovely from here". It might be a great view, indeed those accidents might be because the drivers are looking at the view but telling the parents "get over the loss and appreciate the view" will not win friends.

    Hey, I love your positive outlook.... but don't get too involved looking at the view!

  18.   lobita said:
    Well, Capt. Morgan got back to me, and I don't really like their response:

    "Thank you for taking time to contact Captain Morgan. Your feedback is important to us.

    In regards to your inquiry, please be advised that our non-flavored rums are considered gluten free, however our flavored malt beverages are not.

    We value loyal consumers such as yourself and we appreciate your enthusiasm.

    If there is anything else we could help you with now or in the future, please do not hesitate to contact us.

    Once again, thank you for contacting Captain Morgan.

    Sincerely,

    Robert A.

    Captain Morgan Consumer Representative"

    Why do they have to say "considered" gluten-free? The more I read about how they make the stuff, the more I don't like it. I know they use a "mash" that may or may not contain gluten, but if they distill it afterwards, it should be okay. But then they still put into oak barrels to age it, and lots of places say those barrels are coated in wheat paste, which could leave enough residue to make us sick. Grr, why do alcohol companies - in particular - have to be so difficult in disclosing their practices?

    I realise its infuriating BUT you answered your own question.

    It should be OK.... but they cannot guarantee it.....

      Quote
    Grr, why do alcohol companies - in particular - have to be so difficult in disclosing their practices?

    You asked a direct question. They actually answered you honestly.

    If you asked the same question of a food company they can use the fuzzy law to mislead you legally. If you ask "Does it contain ANY gluten" that is not the same question as asking "Is it gluten free" because they can use the vague definitions (or not) or gluten-free ...

    Alcohol is a 'restricted drug' ... its under the remit of ATF and controls are much stricter than for food.

    As a test try sneaking a small amount of food into the US. You get a warning, possibly a fine but no jail time.

    Try doing the same with a restricted drug. Even alcohol or tobacco and you are more likely to get ail time tan smuggling in an orange.

    Strange thing.... if you smuggled in some heroine for personal use your hurting yourself. Possibly kill someone driving or mug someone but essentially yourself. Smuggle in an orange and they have us believe the entire Florida crop will be killed.

  19.   ravenwoodglass said:
    Whether you will react, well time will tell. I do know I myself would avoid this product.

    The idea of small amounts of gluten being safe really infuriates me. The biggest issue IMHO is that while the test may state that that product is safe, BY ITSELF, what about when folks are consuming multiple items in the day with that same small threshold. By the time they get to the end of their day they have most likely consumed far over the amount that is deemed safe.

    This is true, its equally a question what happens when we consume these products daily.

    What is deemed safe? The recent 'testing' by Fasano indicates a little damage to the villi is OK?

    Over the 90 day test 10mg/d produced a small negative growth in the villi. What happens over 1 year or 10?

    And... since it's you... what about neuropathy? What about thyroid?

    I know myself that my trigger for neurological problems is more sensitive than for my bowels!

  20.   psawyer said:
    It is generally accepted in North America that caramel color is safe. Mostly it is derived from corn, but even if it isn't, the processing involved eliminates any gluten from the final product. I said "generally accepted," and I fully expect Steve Lord (gfp) to jump in here and disagree. Steve and I agree to disagree on the safety of some things.

    Most experts now believe that distillation removes gluten. Again, Steve disagrees with all those experts.

    Draw you own conclusion. I don't worry about caramel color, and I consider distilled alcohol and vinegar to be safe regardless of origin. Your mileage may vary :lol: .

    OK, I'll jump in.

    The so called experts are not chemists but nutritionists with apparently little or no post-grad chemistry.

    Our 'disagreement' over safety is just that.... I believe a product is not safe unless actually tested as such or cannot contain gluten.

    I have not seen ANY evidence of safe levels of gluten.

    This does not mean distilled alcohol contains gluten, it means I have seen no scientific proof it does not.

    The myth about distilled alcohol being safe has two fundamental flaws.

    Firstly it seems to hinge on the size of the gluten molecule.

    This is a little like saying your car has a bigger engine than mine so it is faster.

    In general it's often true ... but its certainly isn't always.

    My 2l sport car can easily reach 140mph (I got scared after this and the track was slightly wet.), the top speed of a 4l jeep is ???

    My brother has a 4.0l Jaguar (with sport suspension and tuning) ... the top speed is slightly higher but on almost any racing track he would not even get close to my little 2l car. On a WRX rally circuit he couldn't even hope to keep me in sight.

    Thus engine size has little to do with finishing a rally circuit more quickly even though generally larger engined cars are faster.

    Distillation has a general relationship between molecule size and the distillate BUT it's just a general relationship.

    You can't just say the larger molecules will just get left behind, it is not a physical size limit but a limit of the energy taken for a molecule to escape.

    At this point the chemistry gets hairy because there is no single energy needed. We say water boils at 212F (100c) at 20C and 14.7psi.

    Generally its true.... or more accurately on average its true.

    However go to your freezer and take out an ice cube. Its amazing... it boils at 4C... well not all of it but some of it. Indeed some of it will boil at -272.9C and even when its all at 100C some of it still takes longer to boil.

    So far we are only talking about 'pure water'.... but if we add salt we find we can freeze water down to 0F. (The definition of 0F) about -32C, adding salt changes the boiling point and freezing point of water.

    If we take 'pure' water and 'pure' ethanol and mix them and then distill them we find that the larger molecule (alcohol) comes off first (shock.... size has nothing to do with it) however the alcohol and water actually have an affinity, the -OH from the water H-O-H bonds to the -OOH part of the alcohol. (CH3COOH) again, not rocket science ... that -H-O-H-O-H-O- has a covalent bond.

    This means that if we distill till the endpoint we NEVER get 100% alcohol, we will always get about 98% and 2% water.

    distilled alcohol can NEVER be pure. This is known as an azeotope. An azeotrope is where one component affects (the SLHV) of another. In effect some water 'clings' to the ethanol.

    At school we are taught water freezes at 32F (0c), but its not true, its a generality.

    I was also taught at school that whole wheat is good for me... again, it turns out not to be quite true!

    Vodka pre-cursor (mash) is not pure water and ethanol. Its a lot of water, some alcohol (10-12%) and lots and lots of other stuff. Other stuff is not even consistent, it depends on the conditions as the yeast never quite do the same thing twice.

    All this other stuff works like the mix of ethanol/water. Much of it develops bonds with other parts. One of thse we know occurs is prolamines and ethanol. We know prolamines (like gluten) have an affinity for alcohol. Indeed that is part of the definition of a prolamine.

    All of this depends on exact pressure/temperature and what else is in the mix! A small change in one can make a large change in another.

    Thus distillation is an inexact method for purifying a complex mix.

    If not then whisky, vodka and rum would all taste the same.

    Even more subtle, why blend whisky? If each is the same ?? Its because each batch is different. Subtly but still different.

    I have worked with many distillations and each complex distillation involving multiple azeotropes the most consistent thing I can say is the results are NEVER consistent.

    Heinekin give a honest answer

      Quote
    Heineken is produced from malted barley which by barley's nature contains barley gluten. Traces of gluten can be analysed in beer. There is no maximum limit for beer for "gluten−free". If we apply the limits for food to beer, our beers are far below these limits.

    Yet we see on here again and again "Smirnoff is gluten-free" YET Sminoff themselves say only certain products are gluten-free.

      "Tarnalberry" said:
    Distillation and fermentation are two different processes. Yeast is not involved in distillation. Distillation is a mechanical process where portions of a compound liquid, which have different vapor pressures, migrate through specially prepared tubes of equipment which are set to different temperatures. Only molecules of a particular vapor pressure (and hence, size) can make it through particular portions of the distillation apparatus. (Many chemistry labs in high school and college to distillation experiments, so if you have an old chem textbook, there may be a description in there.)

    (1) Actually it is relative vapor pressure, in a multi component distillation there is no such thing as an absolute vapor pressure. (VP would be applicible to boiling the pure liquid only)

    (11) College and high school text books are wrong.

    (111) The relationship of size to VP(a) is only causal. Gasoline is larger than water .... pour a cup of both and leave them out and the gasoline will have a lower VP(a).

      Quote
    It is generally accepted in North America that caramel color is safe.

    As far as I know...

    1) According to Heinekin (on this thread) alcoholic beverages are not food. (In the USA) and do not need to day.

    11) I am not aware that the Scottish distilleries produce a different product for the USA. (i.e. Use a different caramel color). (They might) this is a hidden gotha (like all maltodextrine is safe) .. it depends on the provenance of the product. If you buy Mario's (making the names up) special antipasta, made on our Tuscan farm then chance is if it contains maltodextrine its from wheat.

      "lovegrov" said:
    I know many people with celiac who drink distilled liquor that has wheat, barley or rye.

    Sure and I know many who peel off the cheese, brush off the burger and pick out the croutons.

    I also know many here who react to wheat based distilled alcohol, or perhaps they are all lying?

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