gfp

thanks for the replies! hmmmmm......very interesting. When we moved here, the sod was a few years old (and mighty fine looking, I might add ). AFter they peed all over it for 18 months, I re-soded some ruined areas......and that is when the maniacal digging started. And then, I re-sodded an 8 x 12 patch that wasn't getting proper water and had mostly died.......and then, she went to town. Annie never digs it up at all, just Tika. I guess it tastes really good......can't think of any other reason as there are no rodents, we live in a gated community with a brick fence and all the rodents are in the field down the street.

so, I"m about to add more sod. maybe I"ll put chicken wire OVER the grass, so she can't dig it up........I'll also rope it off for a while. then, they have to pee on the OTHER semi-freshly laid sod, and ruin that. I just can't win.......................

I think you just answered the question yourself ....

AFter they peed all over it for 18 months, I re-soded some ruined areas......and that is when the maniacal digging started.

From a doggie perspective she just spent 18 months making that territory her's and your's... then you go and de-mark the territory.. while bringing in all these new interesting smells.....

In summary she problably started digging it up because it was new and covered her markings .. and she's probably already given up on you going for a pee in the garden yourself and doing it for you so she has accepted that responsibility for the family...just as she accepted you bringing back the food

Once she got into the habit which is a fun habit anyway she now associates it with being part of her "responsibilities" for the family...

My mom's little brat has the same idea about postmen.... or people who dare to walk past my moms house... she see's it as her reponsibility to bark her head off.... and if she does it well enough my mom starts screaming too ....

When I visit she doesn't do this.... she automatically defers to me and I only need to whisper "shut-up" and she will get all submissive and cower next to me showing me I'm boss.... and even bring me "presents" from her toy basket... to show she's not trying to be dominant over me....

The habit of returfing probably puts some of your smell into the earth, she's tasting it to check? Eitherway it seems to be working for her that you are taking the responsibility for marking your own territory.

You might also consider where you got the sods... were they pee'd on by another dog or fox?

Yep, the problem is its very easy to make a "tinfoil hat" case out of this.

I know what I read.... but finding it on the internet now is pretty damned hard!

I actually read about whole internal investigation by Elsevier Press ... that I can't find on the internet....

The problem is in order to make these things go away we the "conspiracy theory conspiracy theory" Yes, Im aware I typed that twice...

My theory goes like this....

Lots of conspiracy theories are floated into the general public view for no other reason than they are easy to prove wrong or simply ridiculous....

There is a whole load of "conspiracy theories" that are actually completely true and hidden right in front of us by hiding them in a forest of other "conspiracy theories" and the only way to work out which are true and which are deliberate and which are just fakes means lots of investigation... and of course anyone who has to do this level of investigation gets classed as a "fanatic" so its self defeating....

I just reposted the fruit sprayed by candida link.... I'm sure many people will simply laugh and dismiss it as a conspiracy theory along with most of their supermarket "fresh" produce being a year old...

Believe me I have been to these huge hanger like warehouses and seen them.... (well Ive waited outside but my ex-wife has) ... and if you look at google for advertisements for companies that make the equipment to do this then its all available YET 90% of people will probably not believe me, even though the companies that make this equipment don't even hide it....

Common sense says fruit can't last a year without going off.... hence anyone posting that it not only can but is most of the fruit you get in a supermarket must be a conspiracy theory tinfoil hat person.

Yep, me saying the pharmacutical companies conspired to ridicule Marshal is like me saying "I saw Elvis yesterday and he claims to have been abducted by aliens from area 51"

enough already .... now I'm freaking myself out.

p.s. I have posted this before.... the fact you dismissed it (along with most everyone else) just shows how well these cover-ups work...

(Im not saying you didn't beleive me, I mean its very clever how you probably read me say about Marshal and h. pylori before and it never hit you how effective the cover-up is)

ya know the wax that's on fruit to make it shiny? Is that gluten free?

Depends on the fruit .... as to what's used.

Apples don't usually use wax but insect protein...

Lots of very soft fruits are sprayed with a candida culture which prevents other yeast based infections....but is worth considering if candida/yeast is a problem for you.

For instance Penicillium expansum and Botrytis cinerea (blue and gray mold) are variously controlled by introducing candida onto the fruit. The waxy coating is then to seal this in...

look at the utensil in question: are there sharp interior corners or creases or scratches that might hold onto little tiny crumbs? REPLACE

is it a smooth (stainless steel) surface that can be reliably cleaned without any question? KEEP

Wood: very questionable; glass, ceramic: usually safe.

I had one muffin tin that had little grooves around the muffin cups. It's gone. the one piece silicone stayed. one baking sheet/jelly roll pan had folded/creased corners: gone. One was a flat sheet: still here.

We share a toaster oven, but we have 2 wire racks: His is the one with pizza baked on it

Some will tell you get all new. I don't have the $$ Good luck!

You don't need to get new ... you can destroy the gluten with a combination of heat and oven cleaner and good scrubbing BUT if you continue to share it chances are accidents happen.

Some stuff like toasters the pop up sort are uncleanable.... its really not possible to effectively clean one without taking it into its smallest components ... so unless its a really expensive toaster throwing it out is easier than spending 4 hours taking it apart, an hour cleaning and 4 hours working out where all those stupid screws go... !

I read something today that said that 0-2ppm is not even testable - That the lowest amount that's testable is 3ppm. So I suggested that 3ppm be the allowable limit. I'm not concerned about eating one thing that is 20ppm - I'm concerned about the cumulative effects of eating SEVERAL things each day that might have 20ppm.

Its completely testable, it just costs more....

Indeed its possible to test down to 1 millionth part of this in ppb, the testing is just way more expensive and takes much longer.

When people quote lower testing limits they are regarding a specific test... commonly for gluten these are ELISA tests which have then benefit of being cheap and quick but the disadvantage of not providing quantitive analysis at low concentrations...

Secondly all testing has two method based limits (method being the term used for the recipe followed in testing) the first is the MDL or minimum detecting level and the second being MRL or minimum reporting limit.

MDL means a substance was detected but the test was not able to give an accurate quantitive test within those limits...

MRL is a legal definition, it is defined by legislation according to what is being tested for...

It is possible to test for gluten or its consituents in parts per billion, but to accurately determine 100ppb from 200ppb is much harder/more expensive.

The major reason tests are expensive however is how popular a test is.... for instrumentation based analysis like GC-MS you also have expense in sample prep and consumables, to analyse for different substances quantitively means changing the column to one which is specific to that class of compounds... thus $500 minimum for a single sample ... just for the column but then the machine needs to be completely recalibrated which means standards, sample prep and machine time... hence switching to quantitive gluten as a one off is going to cost in the thousands .... BUT if the machine is already set-up and calibrated for gluten it costs machine time, tech time and sample prep time... as part of an ongoing analysis your talking change from $20.... vs $2-3 for ELISA tests.

What I m saying is the regulations to a large extend determine the cost of the tests. No food company is forced to test to ppb so the tests are not set-up and waiting... thus if a speciality gluten-free company wants to test its prohibitively expensive. Meanwhile for the big food companies like the Phillip Morris group, Danone and Nestle it is far from being in their interests to have these tests...

If the tests were available and cheap then legislation might make them use them! If they did that then they would have to start putting trace of gluten on a lof of stuff they get away with right now.

Kraft make a bid deal about "never intentionally hiding gluten", but they then go to great lengths NOT to find out... some how I don't think they care if it has gluten in it or not, merely that they have to label it as such. Remember this is the same company funded research to cast doubt on cigaretes causing cancer for 50 years....

to tell the truth i don't care if my shampoo has conditioner in it... seriously..... iv never had broblems, so..... ya.

i love paul mitchel hair conditioner to, i didn't know it had weat in it.. oh well. If it gives me problems ill let you know....

lol

When you say you "never had problems" then that rather depends on a lot of other things.

Lots of people eat out, share toasters and lots of other things and say they never have problems.

They could be correct but equally they may not see the problems because they are masking them.

The problem is how you define problems....

What I know for myself but also share with many many people here is there is gluten-free and gluten-free....

Before diagnosis I was already pretty gluten-free.... I identified for myself that if I ate wheat I was ill. I was rather lucky in that I was living in Africa at the time in a place where eating gluten was pretty much eating bread/pasta or not... and 99% of my diet was fresh vegetables and meat anyway just because of what was available...

Anyway .... I noticed a very big improvement to my health just by cutting out large sources of gluten, even though I still on occaision got glutened by CC or soy sauce or whatever...

When I was diagnosed I figured I was essentially gluten-free, so I removed obvious gluten sources and felt better again...

I continued happy with my new found health.... I still had some episodes but I was so used to feeling this way I thought everyone felt like that from time to time..... just as I had with the whole thing...

Then as others have said, I hit a plateau. I got challenged by someone on a board like this (actually a UK one) about CC and stuff.

I was sure I was gluten-free.... I convinced myself I wasn't THAT intolerant... but I WAS WRONG.....

This is back pre-labelling days.... I cut out all gluten totally ... I ate ONLY 100% guaranteed stuff for 3 months and my health was fantastic.... I didn't eat anything I didn't prepare myself from fresh fruits, vegetables and meats ...

After a while I started to add back supposedly safe foods, tortilla chips (100%) corn were one of these... my health dropped back to pre-100% days.... In this way I identified several hundred products which were "gluten-free" that made me ill.

This wouldn't mean much in the wider scheme of things but then when the labelling laws changed I started to see the products I had previously identified as making me ill now said things like "trace of gluten" and "glucose syrop from wheat" or "modified food starch may have traces of gluten" .... This even included some Asprin I had identified as making me ill.

My list overlapped this so much I cannot think its coincidence.... the tortilla chips in question said "made in the same factory as" ...

Anyway, I then cut all these out.... changed my toiletries etc. and went back to the best heatlh ever for 20 yrs.

One day I ran out of shampoo, I had some way at the back of the bathroom cabinet that had been a part of a Christmas present ... so I got it out and washed my hair.

That week I got progressively weirder.... I just felt weirder and weirded but it wsn't for 3-4 days until it hit me... I still had no idea what but the incident was in public and very embarassing.... it involved me having to shower when I got home...

As I was showering feeling like crap I read the label "Enriched with pure wheat protein" ....

I don't want to trivialise what you said but if you have been using this shampoo all the time and/or you have some traces of gluten in your diet then my question is "how would you know you never had problems?"

Many of us have had symptoms we didn't realise were symptoms, quite simply we thought everyone felt like that from time to time.

In most cases when people take the final step ... they discover they had masked symptoms....

I can't say in your case you do but I'd encourage you to find out if you haven't been 100% zero tolerance strict before...

True...but keep in mind that Dr. Fine hasnt published anything yet. His test is not widely accepted...so basically its still poo-poo'ed by the vast majority.

I tested positive in his testing....accross the board....and I had very high malabsorption to go along with it.

In the end it wasnt gluten that caused that malabsorption. Gluten wasnt my biggest issue and I do not have Celiac. .So....while these types of tests may be somewhat useful...they still dont have the capability to diagnose a specific disease like Celiac.

Note that the people involved in the study were already diagnosed Celiacs....in no way were they using this test for diagnostic purposes.

Like I've said before it all depends what you decide to call celiac.

As we both know our knowledge of the mechanisms are rather limited, and I expect the definition of celaic to be revised several times as knowledge of it is revised and collated, eventually leading to different classifications of celiac according to different criteria, just as diabetes is split up today. Perhaps some underlying mechanism will be found that makes what we call celiac today (biopsy proven only in mant cases) a subset of a larger disease called celaic or perhaps they will make a new name for the wider issues?

My point is the guy with cancer didn't have cancer according to the available testing methodology at the time but he did have cancer all the same. Indeed a large percentage of males over 60 have cancer and never know about it and a still pretty large number have cancer they do know about but isn't considered life threatening based on their projected life expectancy... just as a large number of people have relatively benign cancers ... but they are not classified as cancer patients ...

What I mean is that according to our current diagnostic tests and understanding we change the definitions.... Dr. Fine's test may prove to be very significant or it may not.... but in many ways our name for a disease its irrelevant because it is based on a classification, in the case of celaic which is defined by testing methology. As that testing methology develops so our classification for the disease changes...

Regarding Dr Fine's test I can hardly be the only one that has noticed my poo takes a different odour when I get glutened.

I had noticed this before I even heard of Dr. Fine's test ... indeed I had noticed this before I was diagnosed celiac at the point at which I discovered all by myself that when I ate wheat based food I felt bad. I used to be essentially gluten-free even then and whenever I travelled I noticed along with the D and cramps that my poo had a different odour... at one point I actually thought it was to do with flying .. since I got this peculiar odour each time I flew... of course this is also when I ate sandwiches, visited my pre-diagnosis mom etc.

The hiatus is located between the esophagus and the stomach. I don't think you'd be feeling that under your ribs, or on one side or the other. I certainly could be wrong... but I have a hiatal hernia as discovered during endoscopy and on the diagram it shows the location of the hiatus as being "dead center" under the esophagus.

My aunt had laproscopic surgery to repair a hernia about a year ago. Her recovery was a bit difficult - since the "bulge" was pretty large. I would strongly recommend having it checked out sooner, rather than later.

I'm sorry that it's causing you to be uncomfortable. And, I hope you can get it taken care of in a minimally invasive way!

Yep but I think itsone of those things where you feel the effects elsewhere.... in many cases because of stomach acids affecting other stuff. I used to get breathing problems which felt like they were in the lungs/under the ribs...

Anyway... regarding surgery it was suggested I might need it and I was put onto ranitidine for life... this was all pre-diagnosis.

Anyway after going gluten-free and loosing a lot of weight (about 50lbs+) it doesn't bother me anymore ... if I don't look after my weight then I start getting the start of problems again.

Geez... I didn't mean to start anything.

Quinoa isn't common at all in the states unless you're already into health food before you get a celiac diagnosis. Most people have never heard of it. And since celiacs need to stay FAR from anything in the bulk bins, and would have to buy it in some sort of package (bag or box), it would have labels etc.

I would assume that somewhere on the package it says to rinse it. I was just saying that maybe some sort of stronger font would be something the manufacturers of the non-rinsed types might want to do. Because of the really bad taste she mentioned, I had to assume that it was a non-rinsed type.

The main reason I said what I said was a way to let the original poster know that not many people would know about rinsing it unless they were told. It was said in sympathetic jest. I didn't use the wink smiley because I didn't want her to think I was poking fun at her.

Nancy

No I find it weird, like I said given its a relatively new product and if you don't rinse it it tastes ugggghhh you'd think it would be in their interests that people don't buy it, not know to rinse it and then decide its yuck! In the same way you'd think those that have pre-washed it might advertise the fact ? I mean do they expect people who are unfamiliar with it to try it forst, see if its yucky and then wash it?

Overall though I think its one of those things that once you do get used to it you no longer think of???

As someone else said I routinely do this with most of this type of food (beans, rice, lentils etc) ..

Anyway for me you brought up an interesting point.... and I got to thinking that the pre-rinsed stuff might have been through production lines with wheat products (Im not saying it has but anything that's been shipped, processed (even if its just rinsed) and boxed would seem to have a greater potential for CC????

Karen,

Although the discovery wasn't so big as cancer the discovery of heliobacter pylori by Marshall in 1994, linked to its treatment with very cheap pre-existing drugs is an example of how a cure for a potentially fatal disease was actively repressed.

Although this was eventually settled once h. pylori was accepted the two main medical publishing houses were audited over this and their relationship with the drug companies.... indeed I remember reading an editorial statement in a scientific journal where they made admissions of sorts... that they had bowed to pressure from the drig companies.

Stories abound, it has actually been proposed that the drug companies had employees following Marshals family and harassing them and that the Australian government actually intervened... however this is either just rumour or well covered up ....

Of course glaxo-welcome now sponsor heliobacter research ... apologies were made etc. and its becoming increasingly difficult to find the facts and disassociate them from urban myth.

This is either very clever and proof of the power of the drug companies or 'nothing' must have been going on... take you pick ...

If you really want to look deeply then the Australian newspapers did print lots of this, the Australian federal govt did make a study on how many people died from complications during the period between 1994 and the research being accepted... its just well hidden however its probably still available if you can dig deep enough.

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I did read this stuff and its no longer on-line or easy to find....

Most packaged plain grains don't have instructions. It's a good idea to rinse rice before cooking as well.

Michelle

That's pretty much what went through my head too.... however I guess people know about rice (although the amount of chemical treated rice is making a bunch of people who only know how to micro/boil in the bag) ...

Given its tastes horrid unless you do rinse it though you'd think they would put it on the marketing stuff???

Its not like I Think they should be legislated to do so... but its seems common sense for a relatively new product that is going to put people off???

gfp,

Thanks for taking the time to post all that. That adds a lot of science to all of the anectdotal statements everyone makes. That's what I like. I'm OK with anectdotal statements if it's backed up by firm direct personal experience.

I think in 90% of cases anecdotal evidence is probably the best...

Please correct me if I got this wrong, but basically, what you are saying is my margaritas are celiac safe, but whiskey is risky !

Exactly... the whisky might be OK.... but how can you tell?

That even if I don't have any obvious reactions, there is the "potential" for gluten exposure to some undeterminable degree. That theoretically, the gluten molecules are too large to be distilled, but unknown smaller particals could make it over, and that variables in equipment, technique, and food materials introduce too much unpredictability to the process. OK, makes sense.

Exactly the whole process is somewhat liable to very small things... its like what we call in England "Chinese Whsipers" (apologies if there's a PC term now).. and I beleive is called "telephone" in the US...

Just one small change can affect one thing and this then affects the next.... so if a certain molecule is mobile earlier its absense later can influence things that remain and their "mobility" where mobilty is basically their prediliction to evaporate.

BTW, I've been a lab tech for much of my life. In a water/wastewater lab now, but worked for Core Labs (an oil & gas service company) in the gas chromatography lab for 15 yrs (from when it was archaic to modern), and the PVT (pressure, volume, temperature) lab for 7 yrs.

Ok in that I can give analogies.... when you do analysis you start from known standards.. The standards themselves arte not "pure" but their purity is known... you probably did sample extractions where you use a solvent to extract .. and again the process is imperfect. You establish what amount of the sample is dissolved into the solvent and the method will depend on what sample you are extracting from what matrix...

Plus food research and environmental labs. However, I belong to a tribe of lab techs that are a simple folk, like hobbits. We know what to do & how to do it, but the ah how you say - quantum physics theories are sometimes elusive for us. Occasionaly someone like you will come in and say " see this - this is steam!!!" - and we all repeat "steam, steam".

LOL

You would love this. I operated a Podbielniac HydRobot, a low temperature fractional distillation apparatus (big as a wall). There were only a few (3 I think) in operation in the country at the time, most or all ours. We started by charging 20-30 cc of oil in single phase, from reservoir conditions into a small glass kettle immersed in liquid nitrogen. As the sample was warmed, the various gas fractions were measured, collected, and analyzed. Same for the residue, usually a C7+.

Yes exactly but usually if you take say the isomeric ones (C5+) and analyse you find that you had some aromatic fractions included in the alkanes... so what you do next (depending on accuracy) is run it through a GCLC with a column designed to seperate the aromatics from the straight chains... however when you look at the long part of the trace on the GCLC or GCMS you always get outliers, if the process was fractionation or distillation then usually these outliers indicate long chain HC which were caught up with something else...

One way to look at this is the difference between Jet Fuel and household paraffin.... they are identical down to ppm of impurities... but jet fuel sells for way way more than paraffin....

The impurities are very important because they can cause fuel pipe blockage and act differently under extreme cold... and this is not good at 35,000 feet! This was actually one of my areas of research but for obvious reasons I can't go into detail...however you know how much money the oil industry has to throw about.... so you can guess how much work is done on this yet we still can't work out a way to get rid of those impurities by simple fractionation/distillation... it can be going perfectly well then the weather changes or some other inponderable... and suddenly you have impurities ... so its like the process is 90%+ reliable but still doesn't produce JetFuel because the amount of screening needs to be done on the finished product is not cost effective.

If you think of when you wash a sample vessel you're always meant to rinse 3x... because say the partition coefficient is .9 then the first wash gets rid of 90%.... the second 90% of what's left (1%) and the final one 90% of what's left (0.09%) so mulitple distillations work like this... 3x distilled is starting to get really pure...

Each time reduces your risk....

Thanks again gfp, enjoyed it. best reagrds, lm

Thanks.

Thanks for posting regarding the distillation process. Very interesting.

In my case, I have enjoyed Seagrams 7 and Makers for years and have never reacted (only a rare over endulgence) to either. History indicates that I can ejoy it successfully.

And, I don't intend to mess with a good thing.

No probs then

This is the other confusion I sometimes get .... sometimes I have a bad stomach and feel kinda weird the next day .... nothing to do with gluten so much as over indulgence but heck it can be hard to tell what's what under those circumstances....

In fact I think the bottom line with the distillation thing is actually just to be aware.... I think for a decent brand the risk is probably less than eating out....

anyway, the reason I am so stubborn on this issue is because I have begun to suspect (no real evidence but lots of pointers) that one of the worst things for us long term is when we get a comfort-food that we view as a safe food that can be contaminated. My experience is we get very attached to our brands of liquor ... so its easy to do the same thing. In other words a long term low exposure probably does more long term damage than an occiasional big accident.

My opinion is its better to leave yourself open to revising your opinion, just like we have to be on certain other foods... like when cereals suddenly decide to change the recipe etc.

From the POV of liquor, if you get a bad one chance is the rest of that batch are bad... so knowing this you can decide for yourself perhaps another bar is still serving the old bottles or has already moved onto a new batch or perhaps you have a backup brand you can switch to... or if its your own bottle swap it with a non celiac friend.

The problem is once your glutened it can be hard to test a new one... !!! but that's a whole seperate thread!

My bottom line is, if it bothers me, I don't eat or drink whatever it is. I need no other information other than that.

Its usually a good way to work things out, often the best way, especially if you have other intolerances .... its what I do for most things closely followed by what works for other people....

However it doesn't work for distillation.....

I'm not sure which part I am not explaining properly since I've posted the same information several times nor am I really sure if people just chose to ignore it or have the opinion of they don't understand something it can't be important? Perhaps people just don't believe me or prefer to not think about it...? Just like those millions of undiagnosed celiacs who are ill but keep saying "Oh, it can't be bread I've been eating it since weaning"..... "and besides I had an alergy test as a kid so I can't be allergic to it"

I don't know a simpler way to say this than "If you taste it and its fine that's no guarantee that the next batch from the same manufacturer will be" ....

Deb,

Thanks for the reply, I am being super strict and

Only drink filtered water and watching all care products and meds. Had my thyroid tested before and it was fine. My tinnitus never changed until i backed off wheat last winter, but who knows why but it definitly seems connected. I did learn that bananas make them ring badly and make me worse. It seems everything went crazy after going gluten free, ears and all. I did fail to mention that my bowels are staying pretty much normal now and my stomach pains and such seem to be better, but I seem to be getting extreme fatigue/exhausted now. Can withdrawal make it move to your head and generate so many more symptoms like the bad headaches, sinus pressure, stiff neck, depression and anxiety? Been two weeks and really getting discouraged.

Quite honestly that doesn't sound too healthy.....

Don't get me wrong... I can see why but perhaps you would benefit from more variety....

It could also be you are eating too much brown rice pasta... is it ONLY brown rice and water (+salt) ... ???

Also it sounds like a horrid time ... are you certain your wife is not eating gluten ? If she is then there is a very large chance you are being contaminated.... if she feels bad eating in front of you and stuff it probably just makes for increased chances of crumbs etc.

What I found with withdrawl is a lot of it is head based... its a very weird feeling and hard to describe to anyone who hasn't had it but variously its like a not-quite -outa body experience or feeling like you are disassociated slightly from your body and kinda driving by remote control.....

The reason I mention CC is this is a symptoms I get from very very low levels.... usually when its not enough to give me GI symptoms...

I did a gluten chalenge period this winter of about 5 weeks, I had a "cold" the whole time, when I went gluten-free again my "cold" cleared up within 2 days

I know what you mean.... everytime I get glutened I get "a cold" .. only often when noone else has...

I now look back at pre-gluten-free days and actually wonder if I ever really got a cold most of the time?

Its amazing how much the bodies autoimmune reactions are similar....

Then there's also the case of the British drug company who did phase 1 trials of a drug designed to block the immune system (to help deal with autoimmune diseases and cancers) which showed no negative side-effects in apes, but nearly killed six of the seven healthy volunteers (elephantosis, kidney, liver, heart, lung and pancreatic damage, and ended up in comas!!) - three of whom now (six months later) have late-stage cancer as a direct side-effect of the trial. We know much less about the human body, immune system and genetic code than we like to think we do.

Yes, I posted this a long time ago...

This is good to know! I hadn't seen this latest statement and it would certainly explain why I (my body) wants to stick to potatoes and anything NOT made originally from gluten!

Same for me. I can drink some liquors, but react to others. Hmmm

With all due respect, it doesn't "explain" anything. Its simply an opinion doubtless written by someone who knows a good deal less about distillation than I do. The fact I agree with it doesn't mean its an explanation...

I just posted for the n'th time an explanation.

If tommorw the CSA site goes down this doesn't change whether distilled alcohol is safe but all this is is an opinion that ... what I mean is it being stated on CSA doesn't change the facts... just as if its not stated on CSA doesn't change the facts.

It does not conform to the diet of those who choose a zero tolerance level gluten-free diet.

The difference is very important.... because as Larry Mac said

If someone says "I can drink Makers Mark but not Jack Daniels", and if they have actually done it , ie. they had a reaction to Jack Daniels, well then that's easy to accept. That's real, observable science, for them. Doesn't matter if there's supposedly no gluten in either one. One made them sick and one didn't. What are you gonna do? You're gonna drink Makers Mark!

This makes perfect sense unless you understand the process of distillation.... and unless you did post-grad sciences this is unlikely because the way it is taught at school is incorrect. Its simply a huge simplification of a complex process, so far as I know no schools have started teaching quantum physics to 12 yr olds (Not because its more complex but because the model for teaching science at high school level involves teaching gross oversimplifications which are known to be wrong and then expanding/explaining why later...

So the problem is the suck it and see doesn't work! MM might have one batch at one point that you taste no problems but then another batch might not be OK....

In general the multiple distillations are towards increasing safety .... a 3x distilled batch is far far less to have any residual gluten than 2x...

edits: Or to put it another way... I'm say here in blue jeans and a ochre shirt.... I am very sure about that although we could argue the definition of jeans and ochre.... but regardless of anything anyone else on here posts about my dress today I am still sure what I'm wearing.... The whole debate on distillation is like this, I have written research papers on distillation. It is a process I know as much about as more or less anyone. The one thing I can say with certainty about distillation is "You cannot consistently predict the results in a multiphase azeotrope".

You can design the process to minimise gluten or maximise its potential for being carried forwards but never guarantee it...

... but the liquor companies are not interested in that part of the process, their manipulations are to do with yield, taste etc. so short of testing each batch it can never be 100% safe...

Its up to everyone to make their own decisions but based on the correct information.... Its helpful for CSA to post this but it doesn't actually change anything!

Thank you so much for all of your advice and support.

I've been feeling a little overwhelmed and it's so great to hear from people who have been trough it -- I just want to know that there's some light at the end of the tunnel for Alex. Although there has been a definite improvement since she was diagnosed and started the gluten-free diet, she still doesn't feel all that great. Even besides the few occassions that she accidentally gets some gluten and gets very ill, her stomach just never feels good. She's bloated and has stomach pains and cramps pretty much every day. Is she destined to feel this way for the rest of her life or will it get better with time as her intestine heals. She really needs to gain back some weight but it's hard to have a healthy appetite when her tummy always feels bad.

Ryan, since your asking for advice I am just going to lay it out straight....or as I see it....

Firstly, going gluten-free can be a big deal ... BUT what makes it the hardest is when those around you that you love don't buy in....

The hardest loved ones to deal with are those who know you before diagnosis and often think you are going over the top with the gluten-free thing... I could go into lots of details and reasons but .... really all that matters is the support.

Let me start off by saying most peoples first go at gluten free is something they look back later and wonder how they could have been so niaeve. When I was diagnosed I thought, heck I been eating it for 20 odd years and I wasn't THAT ILL..... so I bet I can sneak just a little and I'm sure I'll be one of the ones that can eat oats ....

Boy was I wrong....

But a lot of friends were supportive of "A tiny amount can't hurt" ... they kinda thought the same as me... the problem is I can't, I feel like crap but its not the sort of easy feeling crap to describe to someone else.

I think sometimes newly diagnosed people think the old timers who are checking their shampoo's and stuff have lost it and been abducted by aliens and had our brains rewired... I can assure you when I was abducted they did no such thing (joke)

Instead its a month of 3 steps forwards then a good solid kick in the guts that made us realise this ...but its very hard to get this across, especially when so much medical advice is so vague... we all naturally want to beleive that it will affect us as little as possible...

If you want to do EVERYTHING possible here is the list.....

1) Stop eating ANY gluten about the house at all. Get rid of it, its an accident waiting to happen and kissing does transfer it but also it finds its way onto cutlery, utensils etc,.

2) If you eat out then make it perfectly clear its OK not to. I still get pangs of guilt my girlfriend doesn't get to eat out very often because of me but again eating out is NEVER without risk.... This is something to explore later once she's more comfortable... (I'll get onto that)

3) Always, always back her up.... if there is ever a moment where she is thinking "Its probably OK" then jump i and be supportive.

Once her GI tract has settled down then a little experimentation with eating out etc. can be done from a good base. However if you start this too soon the pair of you are likely just to get confused over what exactly caused the glutening and is it that making her feel ill etc.

The safest way by far is to go on a real healthfood kick and prepare everything from scratch.... this really isn't half so hard as you think... and the hardest part is the shopping usually.

If you can help out shopping if she is feeling ill then this makes it much easier....

Finally, you are doing all you can.... try and forget the "dry toasts", tell her you feel bad but get over it... you did what you thought best... that's really all anyone can do!

I've heard of this type of testing for lactose intolerance and bacterial overgrowth.

I cant see how it would be possible to diagnose Celiac with this method of testing?? You cannot determine if antibodies are being produced by the immune system with a breath test.

It would seem impossible to diagnose Celiac in this manner.

Is it possible that this woman is confused as to what her son was being tested for??

I guess its possible it was confused but also I guess never say never....

Before Dr. fine the idea of faecal testing was poo-poo'ed (pun intended) ...

A couple of years ago they did some experiments with dogs sniffing urine to detect cancer. Not only did the dogs reliably identify the diagnosed patients they also kept giving a false positive on someone who had tested negative and was part of the blind test...

That guy turned out to have very very early stage cancer... which was later confirmed and I hope treated...

anyway... the tinhg is they were not trying to make a doggy test.. what they did was teach the dogs to identify two types of urine ... they didn't know what it was the dogs picked up on, just that they picked up on something... the challenge now is to identify what is was the dogs actually smelled and make a test.

Everything I've read and heard since I was diagnosed eight weeks ago indicated the above statement is true (by everything I mean doctors & researchers). So if one believes it to be true, why would there be any difference in brands of whiskey, bourbon, vodka (unflavored although I don't know if that could make a difference), rum (same as vodka), tequila, etc.

I would only consider good quality spirits of course.

I'm under the impression that bourbon whiskey gets it's color from the charred casks it's aged in. Same for reposada & anejo tequila.

best regards, lm

Because the distillation process cannot guarantee the end product.

No two distillations are ever the same, even if they appear superficially so.

In the first place they never start with exactly the same ingredients and proportions because they start off with a fermented product which is the byproduct of yeast, sugar and whatever else is put in depending on the type of liquor.

Then the distillation process removes the volatile components according to ther boiling temperature.

However there is no such thing as a boiling temperature, only an average. Pure water can evaporate at 0c (-32F) directly, it doesn't just go from 99C-100C and start to evaporate but increases rapidly towards this point.

Small changes in pressure or the humidity (saturation) of the air it is evaporating into change this so you can't say even for pure water that at a certain temperature it will evaporate at a certain rate.

When you mix alcohol and water together it becomes azeotropic, that is the average boiling point of the two together is less for a certain temperature/pressure than either by itself. If you take distilled water and distilled alcohol and mix them and distill them you end up with (depending on outside pressure and the chamber used to collect the distillate 98% alcohol +/-) however the mix you are distilling from doesn't only contain alcohol and water but thousands of products which are the byproduct of the yeast, its food and its excrement. Yechnically speaking alcohol is yeast poo. Although much simpler than us yeast make different poo according to what they eat and other condisitons.

Many of these other byprodcuts also affect the distillation process by either attracting or being attacted to either water, alcohol or both... or being strongly repelled by either or both not to mention each other.

Thus when you run a distillation the intial products are often methanol but also the corresponding aldehydes and ketones along with things which are attracted to them.

When a certain product of the distillate is in its acme for evaporation this can carry much larger molecules with it if these molecules are bound to many of the primary distillate at that temp and pressure.

When doing distillations in research they are undertaken in pressure controlled environments, the air pressure is artifically maintained to reduce the effects of changing weather etc.

Anyway, the point is distillation is a process that starts off making byproducts (actually toxic ones) which are disguarded ... then its mainly alcohol with increasing water until at the heavy end you start getting significant toxic products again and its diguarded...however these toxic products are still present in liquor, they are just moderately toxic and eliminating them 100% is usually pointless because our body will actually turn the alcohol back into many of them anyway....

If you repeat a distillation 100x then each one will be subtly different even from the same "mash" of fermented stuff.

As a analogy the same is true for fermentation. Great winemakers invest significant money in getting a single vat big enough to process all of one type of wine together. They know from experience if they take the same raw materials and ferment it in 10 identical smaller vats they will all be different and even after they bottle the wine no two bottles even from the same vat on the same day will be the same as any other bottle. The amount someone is willing to pay for a great wine depends largely on consistency... you don't want to spend $500 on a bottle and find its a poor example of that wine for that year.

The distillation process is like this, its not consistent ....

If distillation produced a pure water/alcohol mix then unaged/uncolored and unflavored rum, vodka and tequilla would all taste the same...

I'm under the impression that bourbon whiskey gets it's color from the charred casks it's aged in.

There are various ways, the major part of commercial grade stuff is often aged in wine or port casks... so the part of the flavor is depending on that type of wine/port... however at this point you can probably answer the question yourself....

If it was solely the barrels and we were adding pure alcohol and water then bourbon, whisky and whiskey would all taste the same... if the same barrels were used....

The last thing to consider is its not gluten makes us ill but a very small part of gluten that we are not quite sure what it is....

What we do know is that this sequence must be the same or functionally the same in wheat, barley and rye proteins ...

However consider for a moment the way we got told atoms were the smallest particle, then electrons and since then pois, hadons, muons and kaons.

Although postulated in the 1960 the Higgs Boson has yet to be found.... even though the heavier bosons have been....

If you think sub-atomic particles and quantum theory are irrelevant then that is because you don't understand distillation.

The actual act of evaporation and the measurement of a distillate and the conditions acting upon it is a direct expression of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle...

edits added after .....

"Alcoholic Beverages

FOUNDATION STAGE:

Wine and brandies without preservatives and added dyes; potato vodka; most rums and tequila.

EXPANDING STAGE:

Distilled liquors known to be from wheat, barley or rye are categorized as

Quinoa has a natural coating called saponin which protects it from insects. You must rinse it thoroughly before preparation to get rid of the saponin, or it will taste awful.

I've never tried it as a breakfast cereal, but we eat it as a rice alternative. One part quinoa to two parts liquid. We use gluten-free soy sauce and white wine as a portion of the liquid, but plain water works fine. You can also use a broth. For a better flavor, we dry roast the grain for five minutes in a hot skillet after rinsing.

Packaged quinoa may have already had the saponin removed, but we always rinse before proceeding.

Open Original Shared Link

Bon apetit!

Pretty much what I was going to say... however if your buying puffed quinoa for cerial then I should imagine its already done....

I have no idea why they would sell something that has to be rinsed without saying that in BIG red letters.

I dunno, I guess they expect you to know, afterall potatoes don't have a label saying they can give you tummy ache if not boiled?

However if you take a moment and think about it the unrinsed stuff is probably the safest with regards to CC.

I also found it makes a good alternative to cous-cous.

Wow. This is a great link and a very powerful story. I hope everyone reads these stories when they are debating to have the blood test. It just shows that complications, major ones, can arise. I feel it is so important to TRY, and notice I said try, to get an accurate diagnosis. My son's blood was positive and now we're going for a biopsy.

Much as it makes a lot of sense to get the diagnosis I think its worth considering the other side too.

The problem is it all depends on circumstance.

Poor Juliet was in one set but that might not be the same for everyone....

For me the main thing to consider is if your child's specialist actually beleives the tests are not reliable in infants.

If they refuse to consider the test may be a false negative then you are risking being stuck with a "diagnosis" of anything BUT celiac disease. If they continue to be ill regardless or respond to a gluten-free diet then you are potentially stuck with a "certificate" saying that is the one thing they don't have. This is going to make getting them to do testing (and insurance to pay) at a later age when the tests are more reliable more difficult. Of course you can also argue that by dismissing celiac they might find and treat something else so its really something IMHO that has to be considered case by case.

Electra's purpose of this thread is as I understand to gather as much info as possible.... hopefully she will be able to make that decision then herself.

As such it would help I think if we all tried to just give facts without saying testing should/should not be done..(although noone has done this yet).. I'm sure this is an emotive subject and I'm sure there are good and bad stories in both directions but perhaps we can help Electra (and probably lots of mothers as well) by just compiling the facts?

I'm thinking if this is kept reasonably civilised without any "attacks" on MD's etc. she can print it out as is much as I realise lots of members have probably got terrible horror stories.

Call me weird, but I like having the gluten-free food mixed in with the regular. Maybe it makes me feel more like a normal consumer that shops the entire store.

LOL, I know what you mean

I like seeing the other food products that are available even if I can't eat them. This way I know I'm getting the best selection, maybe because I don't trust stores to be able to find all the gluten-free food because they don't live this, and I am not about to have anyone limit my options. However, the fresh and natural foods I go to has the price labels along the shelves in red for gluten-free food so it's easy to scan down the aisle and focus in on the gluten-free stuff.

I like both, most of my vegetables, fruit and meats and fish I buy from fresh markets but stuff like cannot tomatoes I tend to do a big monthly shop. When Im doing monthly shops then I like it mixed in, I sorta do every Aisle (except obvious no-goes) because this is when I buy stuff like new sponges, bin bags and stuff as well.

In between I sometimes hit the specialitiy stores for gluten-free pasta or something but like I described earlier....

.........until about 5 years ago when Wild Oats opened stores within a reasonable driving distance. I simply ate naturally gluten free food and did not try to find replacements for gluten food.

I pretty much still do this although I have 5-6 places within a 5 minute walk.... I think once I got into the habit I preferred it.

When I cook for visitors they usually don't realise its gluten-free until they ask for bread... because I just adjust my cooking to fit.

Mostly I think if I did make gluten-free substitute stuff they would tell straight off.

Thanks everyone for your replies. It is so helpful to know that there IS a light at the end of the tunnel!

I so wish no packaged foods was an option around here! I am 100% gluten-free and am avoiding the stuff I know is bad, but eating all "pure" just doesn't work at the moment. I am a newlywed and before this we *rarely* cooked for ourselves beyond sandwiches (lol), big fast food addicts (still craving a double cheeseburger from Wendys). We are trying to get better at cooking "real" meals and using whole ingredients, but it is certainly a slow process.

Well congratulations !

Actually cooking for yourself is probably much easier than you think, shopping to cook from scratch is a bigger hassle.

Once you have the stuff its just a bit of practice, getting used to techniques and following recipees until your ready to branch out for yourself. The biggest impedement is usually not having the basic stuff in your larder/fridge

What seems to help a lot of people get going is to go shopping specially for 1-2 recipees....

There are 101 simple things ... barely harder than eating a micro -meal... and its largely just getting used to it.

For instance just grilling a steak or chicken breast.... boil/micro some frozen peas, boil some potatoes and mash or not...

At least this way you treally minimise your risk of contamination.

As you get confident you can do something a bit more adventutous but really each stage is just a small step... for instance you can make roast pots or a carrot/turnip mouse ..

Anyway.... its up to you but you can try by just choosing a really simple recipee and buy the stuff in.... pecially that way you know you have everything...

Getting there slowly but surely - hoping to be really feeling better soon. I want my life back!