gfp

The only helpful suggestion is that the school keep an eye on him... at 3 1/2 your not really in a position to explain but perhaps you can create an association = food you give = no pain and food you don't = pain... fever is normal... his body "thinks" it has a virus ...

The best cure is lots of HUGS and CUDDLES from mom!

Thanks All.

I do definitly consider the colds/diarrhea as a normal possibility, which is why I was wanting to go longer than a month to see if she doesn't get sick then after re-introducing gluten see how it goes.. I hope she doesn't have any gluten problems. The blood draw went well. I talked to her about it all the way to the dr. office and I explained each step and that it would hurt a little but it would be ok, as well as telling herwhy. I told her the phlebotomist's name, we looked at the needle. She didn't cry at all, but did get a little squirmy at the end and want the needle out. I was pretty surprised she didn't cry at all. I think talking about it it helps tremendously. I don't think a slap upside the head would yeild much comfort for a blood draw...

I think everyone's opinion is valuable and valid. Gluten experiences are so varied I find it very helpful to have lots of input. I know only one other person who is gluten-free, so it's always good to swap ideas, opinions, advice, suggestions and experiences with as many people as possible who are dealing with it.

~Amelia

for those w/ Trader Joe's nearby - they have yummy gluten-free waffles, my daughter loves them.

comforts not really important... you can always tie them down.

the one thing about the article that i find kind of funny, is that they are thinking they could breed this safe wheat----isn't this what caused the problems in the first place? we might breed the wheat to be safe for a celiac, but in the process, we might create some other problem. why do we always think we can improve on mother nature?????

Chrissy, that exactly my concern....

that and I don't see the point... even if they did how could they stop it cross pollenating?

It reminds me of Jurassic Park and the "Its OK the dinosaurs can't breed" line!

I recently told my allergist that my allergy symptoms (sneezing, runny nose, post-nasal drip, coughing) seem to be less severe when I'm gluten free. He said he's had several patients report their environmental allergies clearing up when they go on gluten free diets. He said that there may be a connection between gluten and allergic reactions in general, but added "it's something that we don't really understand yet." Although I haven't officially been diagnosed with celiac yet, he told me that I should stay gluten free even if my endoscopy results are negative, as long as it seems to be beneficial to me.

Sounds like you got yourself an allergist worth keeping!

Generic or not physcotropics are dangerous....

I would really be adverse to using them myself after readong so many horror stories...

I do have a friend who is a qualifed physchiatrist who doesn't practice (not so well paid here in France) and he is avidly against use without medical monitoring....

That said there are so many and some are far safer than others....

suicidal feelings in people who were "just depressed" (sorry not trying to trivialise that) are quite common...

Recently one got taken off the UK list for under 18's after the amount of suicides was actually studied... but please everyone do your OWN research... one reason there are so many is because they all have different bad side effects... so they keep trying new stuff..

catesfolly: this is just speculation but it is possible your physciatrist is CYA.... I would ask them if they might suggest a different one ... make it clear your not after them in a subtle way... but I woulkdn't want to rely on the non generics actually not being bad for YOU either...

Hi everyone,

My 14 year old cat has been losing weight and suspect the food/allergies. Took him to the vet and he was put on antibiotics which probably gave him some yeast-not sure. Took him off the dry food and have been giving him cooked chicken and broth and he improved - he loves friskies in the can. Does anyone have this issue going on? Thanks,

My cat never got canned or dried food except when he was in a cattery and he was always sick after....

chicken broth is fine.. probably a damned site better than the tinned and dried stuff... anyway...

Cat's are fussy differently to us... they don't mind offcuts and the like and can eat around almost anything they don't wanna eat... like tiny bones...

ours loved raw beef chicken we always cooked but lightly and just microwaved it in a bit of water... (note let it cool... our cat used to miow and miow when he smelt it and then burn himself if we didn't hide it to cool...

Lots of time I'd just trim a steak and cut off gristle and stuff and just give it to the cat... and he'd remove all the meat and leave the gristle and fat...

Don't worry about raw beef... I mean he's probably been eating raw birds and rodents most of his life....

If he's not hungry ... he's not hungry... cat's self recurperative powers seem amazing... they seem to know what they need themselves mostly... quite often if they do get an upset tummy they fast... ours used to damage his stomach by swallowing beaks... course first time we were REALLY worried he pooped blood... took him to a REALLY good vet by chance and it took her no time to diagnose (we thought he'd been poisioned) she xrayed him and showed us the beak... and just said it would dissolve itself slowly.. and when we asked what to feed him she just laughed and said... he'll probably not want much...

I say REALLY REALLY good vet because most couldn't get within 10' of our cat.... one he bit right threw the hawking glove she was wearing... This one... never seen ANYTHING like it... he stood there while she stook a finger up his bum..(to find the beak).. she seriously had a way with cat's! Anyway she gave us loads of advice, turned out she was the cat specialist at the vet college... and she always told us.. just give em meat, raw if they like... at the time my ex did question her and she just laughed and asked how many birds do we think he eats/kills.. and does cooking at leasy hygenic beeef make sense?

I'd take some immodium too.... at least this way its one less worry... you can do what you have to do... and try and mitigate at least one annoying symptom ....

You'll do it.... and then you can get home and flop .... and start worrying about what exactly caused it... and hopefully hubby can make dinner and not use anything "new" ....

Right. People have their expectations, comfort zones, etc. But if a "safe" wheat were developed, those who'd be using it would be the gluten intolerant, and next to flours with zero sticky stuff, even a diminished amount would likely be a big hit.

About the lentil flour; I'll reply via PM, if you don't mind, so as to not pull the thread off-topic.

I see what your saying, its just that we already have reduced gluten "wheat" in terms of rye for instance...

I think the other half of my retiscence is I just don't feel comfy with more frankenstein type crops....

In other words trying to do this semi-naturally I don't see we will get the sequence we need to be sticky enough yet not trigger autoimmune response and using GM techniques.... I'm just terribly resistant against.... largely because most of our food intolerances are the results of the last 2000 years of artificially changing the genetics of our food and not knowing the long term consequences...

In effect what you describe earlier... we are now seeing the long term consequences of 2000 yrs of selective breeding and planting... most of which accelerated over the last century.... the idea of doing 2000 yrs of mutations in a single GM experiment is a bit scary to me.... I don't mind them removing thorns off roses but something I'm going to eat different matter IMHO???

just got your pm so... off to answer

Well, again I'd point out that the wheat need not have less gluten, only one which doesn't contain the offending sequence.

Not to go off-topic, but I also cannot see how anyone would like wheat burritos and such. Tortillas , tacos, etc should be made with corn IMHO. Interesting you mention lentil flour, as I just purchased some. Thing is, the odor (and I do mean ODOR) is quite similar to that of a barn full of cows. No joke, it stinks. The company insists there's nothing wrong with it. Now, I may have a sensitive sniffer, and I may not have ever used lentil flour before, but there's NO WAY anyone in there right mind would think this is normal. Your opinion please?

LOL... its what you're used to ... several hundred million Indians find it homely

Its not really just the single sequence, barely and rye don't have EXACTLY the same sequence just one close enough... and they are problably further away (genetically) from wheat than wheat is from its wilder forebears...

Its not that its not interesting .... its just that the whole thing about wheat is what people "expect" ....

I find this research information about the early wheat grains to be interesting. It certainly explains why early agricultural civilizations did not have the autoimmune problem we now have with gluten. I had wondered about this before, and why it is only in recent history that there has been so much gluten intolerance. Obviously, we have a higher exposure now than people did "back then".

Unfortunately we don't have written records of pre-history... however within recent history gluten intolerance is documented for over 2000 years.... however its not classified as an autoimmune disease until after we discover the immune system and auto immune diseases...??? What exactly do you mean by recent? 10,000 years or 100,000 years?

My girlfriend will be spending a year in Geneve and soi I'll be spending a lot of time there... we'll be visiting soon but any help/info etc. greatly appreciated... resto's, where to buy gluten-free food... do peple "get it" ...

I can't see how it can be worse than France so that gives me a positive

Omg I woke up at 5 am in horrible pain. I am running to the bathroom every 5 minutes and im trying to figure out what i did wrong. I think i have narrowed it down to 2 things. Last night i made apple crisp, and used gluten free all purpose flour, but as I read the box a few minutes ago it has bean flour. So I am thinking that might have been the culprit. Or I had been staying away from soy, and last night my hubby made mashed pototoes and put soy milk in them. Or maybe its from kissing my husband this morning, after he ate and took an shower before work.

I have so much to today, and i dont think i can leave my house, ughhhhhh. Anything i can do to feel better in less then 3 hours for kids soccer pictures.

paula

Nothing amazing ... I can suggest except take some immoium and get relief one way... and treat yourself to a hot bath with some nice gluten-free bubbles or something... if you lived closer I'd drop some of my chicken soup off which always works for me

Take it easy... its just bad timing and bad luck .... take a break from houseowrk if you feel that will help.... and perhaps try peppermint tea or similar if you have some around...

Thanks Karen ... How would I PM someone without having their post to link to it for me ??? Marcia

But please ask her to contribute to the thread! Don't just pm forwards and back (please)....

As for baking without the high amount of gluten, seems to me they where doing it, weren't they? And sorghum has been a staple in Africa since I don't know when, just to name one. Quinoa, teff, and others have been in use throughout history too. Besides, aren't we Celiacs baking without gluten? I know I do. Got one in the oven right now too

Yeah but what I mean is the traditional non-gluten products are not trying to emulate the others...

For example for me a wheat "burrito" is just nasty... I can't understand why anyone would want to eat anything other than a corn one...

The point I'm trying to make is we have developed products that are based on the properties of wheat... so even of we could frankenstein the "new low-no-gluten" wheat... the actual properties depend on the gluten...

Usually when we try and make a product that tries to emulate this it is "far worse" in terms of the expectations...because we have adapted our expectations... to fit that of the commonly avaialable flour...

I prefer a poppadom made of lentil and chick pea flour... I prefer my taco's 100% corn.... (perhaps I decided to tell myself this ) however when you start making cheap poppadoms and cheap tortilla using wheat people get used to it... so that becomes what they expect. The "real thing" actually becomes the nasty product... I've seen people here asking how to make soft tortillas like they are used to... etc. even how to make a Big Mac at home.... but by no stretch of the imagination can I see why anyone would like a Big Mac? I can however understand WHY they might want one... why they might miss them and why they miss the convenience.... but that is all to do with feeling comfortable and comfort foods etc.

Wheat is the basis of many comfort foods... I fully understand why people miss them... (I think) but I also think we are sorta deceiving ourselves that we "like" certain things... ???

That doesn't appear to make sense, since wheat was essentially unchanged from the natural occurring varieties until about 2-3 hundred years ago. That's when they started figuring out how to cross species to get hybrids. They didn't occur naturally.

I'm not sure how you equate the hunter/gatherer stuff to how much gluten wheat has, or if it's even relevant to the topic. I mean, there are far more grains without gluten than there are with it, and they have been staples throughout history, and still are today.

Not really.. man started tampering with wheat 12,000 yrs ago when he started selecting the biggest/fattest etc.

By Roman times many different wheats were common.... and classified...

The whole debate is IMHO pointless anyway because it is the gluten that gives wheat its properties... without the gluten what would be the point for baking etc. ??? it would lack those properties which make it wheat???

Erm I would I just don't think people want my opinion!!!!

My opinion is if a child doesn't want to give blood you slap them round the head until they do....

Sorry.... I can't accept not giving a few cc's of blood as a reason not to condemn a child to spend a lifetime in misery....or developing horrible diseases...

Having said that the tests are not so accurate on children, I might think that not doing the test because then the insurance won't pay again when they are older if its -ve is a better reason but being scared of needles is not an excuse.

Let me know if you try it. I've ended up with some not too great croutons and I've ended up with croutons I have to hide from my husband.

Nancy

Hey... I do this all the time but I just fry them.... and I'm very happy with the results... I find the gluten-free bread already has that dry/hard texture to start with... your's might (well probably are) be better but mine I find almost foolproof and REALLY quick and easy.

Hope you can stay off the croutons. I am new and I have to say that reading this site is better than any of the Celiac books that I bought. This is a nice place to learn the diet the quick way that is for sure. I am affraid to eat out at all. I had a baked potato the other day at Wendy's and almost screamed at the lady when she went to cut it. She looked at me strange and I just told her I have food issues. I prefer to just eat at home where I know it is safe. This disease hasn't been as hard on me as I thought it would be. I can thanks my 4 year old nephew for that, he has a severe peanut allergy and there are times when he is with me in Tim Horton's when I get a coffee. Last week he pointed at all the delicious desserts and said those will kill me ya know. That's when I realized that he is a hell of a lot smarter than me, I was diagnosed a month ago and thought that I will just avoid bread and stuff when my stomach bugs me. That day I realized that I wasn't using my head and that my nephew was a lot smarter than me. I am going to try to remember that the next time I want a bean burrito or a granola bar. I just started the gluten free diet a week ago, the day after he told me that the donuts could kill him. Stick to your diet Jerry, it's only been a week for me but I feel better.

Kelly

Kelly.....

I think you are making a VERY wise choice and one I wasn't smart enough to do at 1st....

What I would say is having your gluten-free haven is VERY important... (it is to me)...

However after A while I do eat out... and I do get sick on occaision....ITS IMPOSSIBLE to be gluten-free and eat out regualrly because try as they might (or sometimes not) the kitchens are full of gluten...

Even without the croutons ... if the chef doesn't realise this what if the sald came without croutons anyway? It doesn't mean the chef didn't unwittingly contaminate it ...

NoGluGirls list is a good start but remember she has specical circumstances that she lives at home with parents don't understand nor want to understand celiac disease... Personally I wouldn't trust Kraft .. BUT if I were in NoGlueGirls's situation it would be far better than risking parental CC.... but I have a luxury she does not...

The point is you have to find a risk level for your situation.... If you can be 100% gluten-free at home its obviously better but if you have to share a kitchen then something in a sealed packet can be your best bet! My advice would be if you can don't eat ANYTHING processed.... having said that I buy my corn tortillas, I could make them but I have found a decent brand seems not to give me probs... the nice thing about being gluten-free 100% at home is you can add a food item AND test it objectively... so when I tried my gluten-free taco's and tortillas I didn't eat out for a week before... or after... and did super paranoid mode washing hands etc. after using restroom doors (i.e. wetwipes on the door handle to get out) and train rails etc.

The chance of glutening on these is really small BUT from my POV I want my test of the new product to be as definitive as possible!

The more processed and ingredients a food has the more chance one of them is CC'd ... and 99% of those risky ingredients are just additives anyways....

I just bought a convenience item the other day.... its a frozen meat and tomatoe spagetti sauce and its labelled with tomatoes, herbs, beef salt and corn starch... (that's it) however... I still view it as a gamble... we will have to see,

Can anyone refer me to information on MSG? I am in China and avoiding because I am told it is wheat based. Even my housekeeper here knew that so it seems to be general knowledge. It would be great to not have to worry about that here!

The problem here is people make statements in good faith ... but they presume you live in America.

Firstly maltodextrin is not safe.... neither is a very long list of things which peple here say are safe... unless its manufactured in America.

There are also a couple of people who who post it out of spite.... in order to make you sick because they are well aware that non-US maltodextrin and other derivatives often come from wheat elsewhere since I pm'd them but they still keep saying all maltodextrin/dextrine etc. etc. is SAFE...

The same people repeat the same old lies that all liquor is gluten-free as well. They know who they are and they are just nasty spiteful people. So just beware of anyomne making sweeping statements....

That said....

Common knowledge isn't always correct it cewrtainly can be wheat based BUT there is a lot of association due to the name "glutamate"..... which sounds similar but isn't...

One way to look at this is that dextrin, maltodextrine ... and a very long list of other products are not REALLY products but byproducts... that is they are made from the waste from processing food items ... they are just used as cheap organic starting points to make products that alter flavor/texture etc. etc. and they are bulk items... something bough5t by the ton or hundred tons by big commerical food companies...

The dextrin example is a good one.. in the US the big companies that processed corn had this as a byproduct hence they became the biggest suppliers.. its a limited market and it costs investment to make the processing plants so its something appeals to bigger companies but not smaller... the alternative for smaller companies is just to throw away the byproducts... and they are not a high value item ...

An simple example of this is sand... you can buy a ton in the UK for a few pounds which is basically the delivery fee... however because the UK is so small and over populated the hole the sand comes out of is more valuable as landfill than the actual sand...

Lots of byproducts of processed food are the same... they are almost valueless, their production is actually based on increasing the value of the main product like white flour and white bread...

So in answer to MSG... in China.. they will use whatever is convenient...

HOWEVER...

I am of the opinion MSG isn't particualrly good for anyone.... (we have all threads on this)...

Personally I tend to stay away... but not like I do gluten... I'll eat it when its presented but avoid buying products containing it.

Steve, I would never have thought of it this way! But you're right, now that I think about it. Whenever I am glutened (or 'dairied' or other intolerances), my allergies go into overdrive. And antihistamines do work for those allergy symptoms for me as well.

Thanks for mentioning that, you learn something new every day when reading posts!

Yep, I find it interesting... I think conventional wisdom would say the antibody reactions are unlinked but this leaves me with 2 possibilities I guess...

1/ I'm also allergic to wheat and hence have an IgE reaction

2/ The immune system is more complex than medicine understands...

My "normal hay fever level" is one I wouldn't take meds for except perhaps a spray when pollen count is highest... if I'm glutend though its a misery..

Just throwing this in but does anyone else have a photosensitive reaction to the sun coming out.... I specifically mean coming out... like from behind a cloud or walking out into it... because after 2-3 secs I'm fine.. just the 1st few secs I start sneezing...

This means I always wear sunglasses for driving.... (except on the rainiest days)... sneezing while driving is.... well not exactly good!

Absolutely! It's even worse this time of year when my real hay fever is going nuts. Ugh...

Dunno about you but mine is REAL hayfever...

That is I don't have hay fever unless I'm glutened (perhaps the slightest touch) but when I am I get hayfever and anti-histamines work so its a real allergy (IgE) reaction.... same goes for other allergies I have like lavendar and geranium... both dissapear when Im gluten-free well lavendar oil goes from a severe blistered rash to a little red....

In any event, there's no excuse for deliberately using poisonous materials to make pet food.

But its not so simple... the US uses many fertilisers etc. that are banned in Europe and Europe ones banned in the US...

Toxic is.... quite relative... indeed from the alternate viewpoint many European and US companies use 3rd world countires to make our toxic products... ones our legislation wouldn't allow us to make/use at home...

This is why we should insist that manufacturers KNOW where their products come from and what they are made of. They should test the product before they accept shipment and implementation.

Absolutely....

Not many people know this but take petroleum for instance....those oil cargo ships come into the port and the gas company (Exxon, etc.) don't take any chances. They send out a person to take about a quart amount of the oil and test it for impurities and octane. If it doesn't pass the test, they don't accept the product. I expect the same rule to apply for food products.

A quart doesn't really guarantee much... the oil fractionates during transit anyway... and is held for safety reasons in seperate tanks with bulkheads between....

In most cases they can't just not accept the product because the whole industry is based on futures.. and the refinaries need the oil "soon"...so in most cases they negotiate discounts etc. since the oil can't be just replaced any time soon...

On numerous occasions I have called manufacturers about food to know about ingredients in human food (whether gluten-free or not) and the manufacturer could not provide the information because they don't know what their supplier is using at the moment (usually a question about the starch binder or filler).

This is largely my problem.... the farmer/producer in India or whereever is just using whatever product is available... one week it might be chick pea flour the next lentil and the one after wheat...

Noone is going to actually analyse it until much later.... after its been passed through suppliers, transporters etc. so ultimately a product might arrive with say 100,000 units ... 25,000 somewhere in the middle might contain gluten because that was one supplier ... or transporter... because the whole process is less centralised....

In the US you have many huge producers producing the vast majority of foodstuffs... whereas in the 3rd world they have individual farmers perhaps supplying a cooperative making up the bulk of their produce...

Hi,

I am 29 years old and very early into my pregnancy. My husband and I will be traveling through Italy in the second half of May, and I was wondering if you anyone has any suggestions with regard to gluten-free restaurants in Venice, Florence, Rome and Naples, and also being pregnant in Italy. It's all new to me. What should I stay away from? Are unpasteurized dairy products easy to discern? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ariela

Wow, which order to give my experiences... Naples has two gluten-free resto's on the same street right down town.. both have gluten-free pizza and pasta, one requires you book in advance for the pizza... a third one has gluten-free beer!!! Different street...

I'll look up names later...

Rome has everything of course... for a splash up meal Alexando's (near the US embassay) is expensive but high class... however we found a pizzeria at polyclinica which was out of this world.... and astoundingly cheap.... looks a little garish perhaps but really really good...

If for some reason you are concerned about unpasturised diary (its your call) then you basically need to stay away from ALL meats and cheeses. that are not packged.. they are all stored together... and cut with the same implements and handled with the same hands...

In Italy you have a perfect right that implements used to handle gluten are not used on gluten-free food but you have absolutely no right whatsoever to not getting a pasturised cheese stored with a unpasturised one....

The Chinese have no respect for copyright laws and are the worlds worst piracy offenders. They have almost no environmental controls. Pollution and pesticide use are uncontrolled.

This might be true but I do think its worth putting in context....

Their motivation is strictly monetary.

90% of the world if asked to name the country this best describes would say the united states...

The Chinese have no respect for copyright laws and are the worlds worst piracy offenders.

From a Chinese POV copyright is just a way to prevent honest people making a living.... the chinese also pirate many things like pharmacuticals they can't afford to buy... from a different POV much of the world views it as immoral that someone should be denied life saving drugs which are prioce foxed to be too expensive for them...

If you start from this POV the it looks different....

Of course the arguament is that the drugs wouldn't have been developed without the protection of patents but its rather different telling that to the person being told they can't have the drug that will save thier life and costs cents to make because someone has the patent...

Of course you can talk about music, video, software.... but really for the person who wants the drugs to live these are rather minor issues that are trivial... if IP law says they can't have the drug then why respect it over video's or music?

How does this affect food...??? and gluten-free???

Well the Chinese government is being blackmailed (from thier POV) into accepting the american idea of IP in order to trade with them... hence they are implementing laws and measures they themslves consider downright stupid for the right to trade..

Even talking about human food.... this is a privelidge for many... the thought of us feeding our pets with an intent other than fattening them up to eat .... probably very wasteful.... they are trying hard... to fit in just to trade but that is all.... it doesn't mean they think they way of life where most people spend more on a pet than they give to the needy is a perfect way of life... they would just like to be in that position i guess....

The whole thing about adding melamine to subsitute for N in analysis is understandable..(from their POV). why give dogs perfectly good human food when dogs can scavenge the garbage?

Its somewhat like I said in the Curry thread.... its easy to view the lifestyle and practices in these countires as being similar to our own value systems.. and just modifications of them... the reality is they have complately different value systems and expecting them to think along the same lines is usually a mistake....

we cannot trust food products from China, period!

I agree except its NOT only China.... people repeateadly say "if it has wheat and its old in the US it must be labelled" ...

Sure.. that's the law... but some guy in India, China or any of hundreds of poorer countries has no idea why... its not THEIR law .. its the law of a country that imports a food that some company that they sell raw materials to (possibly with 5 more extra steps) .. has...

and when you think about it that country is one where cash is king and making and accumulating money a religion... an end in itself.

Even for myself as a European I am often puzzled by American advertising....

Much of it is deliberatly misleading... even transparently so... American friends explain to me caveat emptor yet I still find much of the deliberatly false and misleading advertising (from a European perspective) strange... its strange that people accept it and still trust the companies...???

Just so you know what I mean .... its like having brand X tylenol having an advert that brand Y causes kidney problems and omiting to say theirs is EXACTLY the same.... most European consumers would judge that company as dishonest...

Its just different styles of advertising... really... one consumers become accustomed to... European companies are no better they just say it differently...

However this is probably a perception that China and India get when exporting.... they do after all get cable...

If its OK to mislead consumers about a competitors product why not mislead them about your own.. after all its just wheat/dog food etc.

I am in europe too, so what clinic, and are they very good at looking at celiac biopsies, etc?

nora

Nora, for the biopsies I dunno.... blood work yes.... I'd lean towrds no on biopsies simply because they require practice and celiac disease is underdiagnosed so they get less practice... as to the medical system overall... lived in Oslo for a year and Stavanger another and honestly the Norwegian one isn't even close... (although I did get good dental work)

Not sure if you have the same reciprocal health arrangements or not (since its partly EU based)

I believe acetabulaire is referring to the acetabulum, which is where the head of the femur articulates with the pelvis. I am not a native speaker of French but I believe this is what it is and it seems to fit in with the context of the article since the lumbar spine also articulates with the pelvis. I hope I got this right for you.

Ryan

Thanks ... that makes sense... RiceGuy thx too I thought I'd get better naswers here than my Girlfriend who's bilingual (hence doesn't know medical terms in either )