gfp

  CarlaB said:

Gfp is the person I was speaking of ...

Steve, you tried again??? Why? I hope you're feeling better.

Hi Carla

Yep I stupidly tried the UK Codex bread again ...

New job and lots of travel.and very long hours.. (and I mean lots) and I have been trying to get portable food.

I thought I'd try the UK gluten-free bread again... with disastrous results. It does seem cumulative. The first time I thought I was OK then after 1-2 days I just got worse and worse...

@Tranquility .... that person is ME....

Even though the bread is labelled gluten-free it contains wheat starch...

  babygirl1234 said:

well i had turkey without the stuffing in it which is the top of the turkey, but the basing of it i think they use the water from it but im not sure, as far as anything eles goes they dont go out of there way to do what i can have so i just end up with the turky with nothing eles, its like that with my whole family. And they wonder why i dont like to go to family gatherings because they dont do dittle swat for me and my needs, i end up looking at whatever they have after dinner and wishing i could have it, and if i do i pay for it the rest of the night, i had celiac disease since i was 16 years old and yes it does get eazyer but only to a point, its one thing to know you cant have it and its another to see it, you either skip it or if you eat it you end up feeling like crap after you eat it,

Its a funny thing but often its family and close friends who have the hardest time adjusting to our diet.

I think in many ways they saw us eating gluten for years and being relatively OK... especially we have a lot of things we didn't mention (toilet habits) and they just find it hard to accept we need to be THAT strict. Sometimes they even seem to think they are protecting us from ourselves and we are obsessed.

It can be hard, especially for those we love to seem to not care but in many ways they just don't really get it.

  darlindeb25 said:

The nays have it Cari--absolutely not--never eat anything that has gluten on it, in it, under it, on the same plate, etc. I won't touch cheese on the same plate with crackers, who knows if someone dropped a crumb on the cheese when taking a cracker.

Cari, being new, you have not heard this old bread tale as of yet, I'm sure. If you take one piece of bread and you break it into 1000 pieces, one crumb, meaning 1/1000th of that piece of bread can make a celiac sick, so, no, you never really want to take the test that Ridgewalker was just telling us about, unless you want to have the same results!

CC is a very big issue for us and other's truly do not understand. At our support meeting the other night, there were 10 newbies there. At each meeting we ask the newbies to stand, tell their name, when they were diagnosed, and how they are feeling. This lady stood, told that she was diagnosed on her husband's birthday and that his birthday will never be the same again, then she stated how much she hates being celiac, that she has been type 1 diabetic for well over 20 yrs and that sugar is a breeze compared to getting rid of gluten. It gets easier with time, once you realize where it hides, then you get a better grip, then it isn't so tough anymore.

Deb is so right...

From what you said I don't think you will be able to eat safely at all.

Read up on CC on this forum and you will start to see. Even if she makes a seperate bird unless she thorough washes hands and makes sure no crumbs get anywhere you will have a huge chance of CC. Exactly like Deb say's 1/1000th of a slice of bread is more than enough.

  Tranquillity said:

First... Huh?

Well all wheat starch will have some residual gluten.

If its analysis grade or pharmacutical grade then it is likely to contain very little whereas food grade it can contain significant amounts, depending what you call significant.

Wheat starch is basically extracted just by washing flour or the byproducts. Its the most soluble part that comes away however this doesn't mean some of the gluten will not also be washed along.

The purest form is analytic grade...this is what is used for calibrating analytical instruments like mass spectrometers.

If you were to have wheat starch analysed then this is what would be used as the baseline. So basically almost all food grade wheat starch contains appreciable gluten.

In other words the control subjects were probably (almost certainly) also ingesting SOME gluten... you can't just do a 'scientific study and ask... "have you been gluten free" because most people can never be gluten free and I find it incredulous that of these control subjects only two actually slipped over 12 months.

  Quote

Anyway, I guess the sum of all that is: wheat starch bad... Yes?

I'm looking at alternatives, actually. Finding one that is also free of soy isn't very easy. I created a new thread in the other intolerances section regarding soy/casein/corn. It's not pinned yet though.

As nora_n has said many people DO react to the CODEX wheat starch and I am one. I also try and avoid Soy but not to the same extents as gluten.

The actual definition of the codex is itself flawed. It states that for a product to be labelled "gluten free" it MUST contain trace amounts of gluten. If not then it cannot legally be called gluten free but "naturally gluten free".

Well, I'm well and truly lost !!!

Paulina says it all really...

It seems awkward at first ... but its mainly just not something we are used to doing.

Trying to guess what is gluten-free and what might not be is pretty likely to give bad results.

I was flying the other day just a short domestic hop and not a single item was gluten-free. I hoped the peanuts would be but they even had gluten listed in the allergies part... and these were not some fancy coated peanut, just plain old salted peanuts.

  cyberprof said:

Just so no-one misunderstands me, (and I'm not trying to be argumentative here) I don't eat gluten on purpose and if I get any accidentally, it's because I refuse to quit my job, stay home and never eat anywhere but home- like at my in-law's house (they're saints) or at a business lunch or dinner. I have an executive level job- eating out is required. I usually go through MAJOR efforts to get a gluten-free meal at business dinners and I even run the risk of insulting my host or my business clients. The President of my company knows how to order for me! She instructs her secretary, who also knows how to order for me!

And I don't eat at the homes of casual acquaintances, I don't eat fast food and I don't eat out very often just for the fun of it. Just in the past week, I have had NOTHING to eat at two potlucks I attended for my volunteer activities. I just had water. At my sister-in-law's wedding, I ate nothing and only drank the champagne! Even if the item appears gluten-free, the risk of CC is too high.

So, given these parameters, yes, I may be getting some gluten and that's why I say I hope there is no damage. And while I don't expect a cure, I would welcome a pill (like the one that is in Phase II clinical trials now) to take on those occasions that I HAVE to eat out and am worried that there might be an accident or CC. But don't think that I have my head in the sand.

~Laura

I think we are saying the same thing....

I have the same problem eating out with work b.t.w.

The reality is unless we put ourselves in a bubble we will get some CC and some accidental glutening, its just a reality of the world we live in.

As others have noted, the damage seems to some extent to be cumulative. This makes sense, I don't think all our villi disappear on a single glutening etc. and we are always going to be exposed to background glutening however hard we try. So I think for me that means trying not to take risks unless I have to.

Business dinners are one of those realities. I am presently doing a lot of work in Hotels behind the scenes. I get to meet the Chefs and talk to them and wander through the kitchens. Its really quite frightening the level of knowledge or lack of knowledge to be more accurate. Only the other night I was offered steak and chips and I know that the chips are cooked in the same oil as breaded or battered things. When I mentioned this to chef he just said, "oh you're that sensitive?" I'm in a pretty lucky position in being behind the scenes, I dread to think what it would be like passing the order via the waiting staff. Its not that they not trying or accommodating, they just don't get it.

Just seen Momma Goose's post and my post certainly wasn't directed at anyone particular....

Indeed if the line about believing what we want to believe seemed so... see my signature which has been like this for years.

If you can't figure out the latin it says Man will willingly believe what he wishes to believe.

I think the bottom line is that even if it takes repeated glutenings to get as bad as it was it took most of us over a year of pain to get to this stage.

If you don't get an immediate strong response then keep going the point at which you do is going to be when you have done enough damage.

Even worse, that damage isn't always reversible and the process is a bit of a cascade effect. We get glutened and damage our ability to adsorb nutrients and put a huge stress on our immune system, various organs (like the thyroid) etc. and all of this means it is harder to get back. We basically wear the bodies ability to heal down ...

The idea of a gluten challenge is to me anathema. It is by design to damage the body to a point it can be observed by a fairly chance based procedure (in terms of sampling) .. if we get a negative what to do? Do we keep going and see if we can damage it enough the next endoscopy finds damage?

Also it is worth remembering many 'symptoms' are easily masked. We can put the odd D down to something dodgy, we can explain dark moods or stomach pain various ways and if it is passing dismiss the gluten but it doesn't mean it wasn't gluten. Remember its easy to believe what you WANT to believe.

And the same person just tried again...

With the same results ......

Studies like the one posted are not very helpful.

Firstly it doesn't say if they are using pharmaceutical grade starch or regular stuff bought in a store.

Nor does it list the conditions of the control subjects.

It says they "followed a naturally gluten free diet" .. however what does that mean?

In Finland McDo fries are considered gluten-free but the more sensitive analysis shows that this is not true... In other words the baseline is skewed for the control group.

If you read enough posts on this board you will also see that most people starting a gluten-free diet alone do not really manage a gluten-free diet ... because there are so many gotcha's. These range from cross contamination to those surprise products that you just don't expect to contain gluten.

The EU food industry has a huge excess of wheat waste products and the food manufacturers are always interested in using waste products as food. This itself has an effect on what governments accept as gluten free. For instance things like dextrine and malto dextrine in Europe are often made from any starchy vegetable or grain. It is basically a commodity product ... they buy it by the ton... imagine "normal sugar" which can come from Cane or Beet. When we buy sugar as a "product" we can choose cane sugar and even less processed etc. and even cubes or other fancy stuff.

When a manufacturer buys sugar (sucrose) they just buy 300 tonnes of sucrose ... it can come from any source unles its a real "artisanal" product.

Hence buying malto-dextrine from a specified source is much more expensive ...

Interestingly in the US all domestic dextrines and malto dextrines come from corn. This is more accident than design but its nice for our American friends

This is just because the factories to extract and process this were set up in corn growing areas.

You might notice that sometimes starches are listed and this is becoming increasingly common in the UK. (potato starch, rice starch etc.)

With compound foodstuffs (those containing other products like say mustard or mayo etc.) you find confusing mixes... why did they use 3 types of starch ??? I think usually its just say the mustard used one and the mayo a different one.

Last point... regardless of the metrics they choose ... many of us feel lousy with the wheat starch! This would seem to indicate they are measuring the wrong things!

  Quote

BACKGROUND: The safety of wheat-starch-based gluten-free products in the treatment of coeliac disease is debatable. Prospective studies are lacking. AIM: : To compare the clinical, histological and serological response to a wheat-starch-based or natural gluten-free diet in patients with newly detected coeliac disease. METHODS: Fifty-seven consecutive adults with untreated coeliac disease were randomized to a wheat-starch-based or natural gluten-free diet. Clinical response, small bowel mucosal morphology, CD3+, alphabeta+ and gammadelta+ intra-epithelial lymphocytes, mucosal human leucocyte antigen-DR expression and serum endomysial, transglutaminase and gliadin antibodies were investigated before and 12 months after the introduction of the gluten-free diet. Quality of life measurements were performed by standardized questionnaires and the bone mineral density was analysed. RESULTS: In both groups, abdominal symptoms were alleviated equally by a strict diet. There were no differences between the groups in mucosal morphology, the density of intra-epithelial lymphocytes, serum antibodies, bone mineral density or quality of life tests at the end of the study. Four patients on a natural gluten-free diet and two on a wheat-starch-based gluten-free diet had dietary lapses; as a result, inadequate mucosal, serological and clinical recovery was observed. CONCLUSIONS: The dietary response to a wheat-starch-based gluten-free diet was as good as that to a natural gluten-free diet in patients with newly detected coeliac disease.

Bolding mine....

57 people and only 6 made a mistake in 12 months? This is pretty much impossible, even the most diligent of us make slips and its rare I have never managed a whole year without a single slip, let alone a newly diagnosed patient.

In conclusion I think it more likely NON of the newly diagnosed patients had ZERO gluten and since they lack a control (a set of subjects who only ate food analysed by the most accurate methods, they should by their own methodolgy remove ALL patients that did not eat ONLY food which has been analysed and have lived in a environments where no gluten is present ....

Hence the study is actually LESS THAN worthless, its misleading and valueless scientifically.

A friend who had serious medical issues read a book lately... and he summed it up saying

"If it doesn't look like vegetables, meat don't eat it".

Another nice maxim is "nothing in excess"

Unless you have other dietry restrictions then a little fat is no bad thing...

My personal preference is I try and not eat anything comes in a tin, packet or similar.

I try and base my diet on fresh vegetables, meats and fish and fallback on frozen (peas etc.) and a few tinned items ... (canned tomatoes are a stock item for me).

This seems very difficult for many people but really its not... its only a matter of getting used to it.

The first thing is discover the joy of cooking... for me this is always marred by washing up so I always have to have a dishwasher..

I buy fresh food so I make sure I have enough refrigerator space... to this end especially many Americans are in a habit of storing things in a refrigerator that don't need to be but you can also invest in another one.

The basic rule is if you start with fresh vegetables and meats/fish almost everything will be healthy... some will be healthier than others but almost everything will be healthier than prepared foods.

The more vegetables you can get in the better, obviously. Try not to just eat only meat+ starch item (potatoes/rice) but add selectons of vegetables for the vitamins and minerals.

Just a quick example... take a typical burger meal.

Make your own burger, its just ground beef... just roll it in a ball then flatten it. (You can also buy them but I'm just illustrating how easy it is)

Then lets cut out the fries or only have a few...

Then you can add some vegetables as filler ... forget the bun and instead go for higher quality stuff to fill you.

You can have a fresh salad or you could have some steamed or boiled vegetables ... frozen peas or green beans or even broccoli or spinach

This sounds quite boring... so you can actually boil the brocolli and then you can fry it with a little bacon for 2 mins ... and you can cook the spinich like this from scratch. Throw in some fried onions or garlic etc.

Now instead of the burger you can have a steak, or take chicken breasts and just grill them. Add some variety.

Its winter here in the Northern hemisphere. Try taking carrots and boil them (I like to ad 30% Swede) then just mash or puree them with some butter, sour cream and salt and pepper.

Most things can be spiced up with a sauce... learning to knock these up is a good investment.

You can also make marinades and coatings.

A simple example is taking chicken legs, pull the skin back and put in some butter, mixed herbs and garlic then just put them in the oven for 30 mins.

Take the juice that comes off and you can make a sauce really easily... mostly you can add a few items and corn starch for a basic sauce.

I tend to keep wine I don't drink... and you can add a half cup to a sauce and let it boil for 2-3 mins before taking off the heat and ading cornstarch already dissolved in water.

For a bit of variety you can place some bacon or proccutio over the checking when cooking and the flavor will mingle.

Its a bit of extra fat BUT overall its healthy...

Anyway, this is what works for me....

It is hard if you have no external symptoms to know just how well you are adjusting to the diet.

Many of us started off thinking we were 100% gluten-free then later found the gotchas.

Also although you think you have no symptoms doesn't mean you don't have ... we as humans are very adaptive and we get used to coping and our bodies used to handling toxins. Think of a non smoker smoking 40 cigarettes a day or a non drinker drinking what a regular heavy drinker drinks. Even though these people handle the toxins better and don't feel they have external symptoms if they quit altogether they often suddenly find they have "symptoms" they never believed they had. Many of us have found if we go REALLY strictly gluten-free (prepare all your own food from scratch) that our reactions when we slip are more severe.

Plenty of us here put symptoms down to "getting older" or "everyone has that" etc. and these can be really diverse. I am much more sensitive to traditional "allergies" (IgE) when I have been glutened. I get hay fever etc. , migraines and numerous other niggles. I doubt these will be the same for you but there is a good chance things you have accepted as normal or getting older etc. are in fact partly linked to celiac and that you can use these as metrics.

On being gluten-free vs on being gluten-free -lite .. if you share a kitchen you are undoutedly getting small amounts.... if you eat out in all but a handful of places the same problem. Sometimes these amounts are just enough to give some symptoms and not others... I seem to get neurological symptoms before others for instance.

The easiest shortcut is basically to go the whole hog.(not everyone can do this).. for at least 1-2 months don't eat out, remove all gluten from the kitchen completely, remove any old kitchen appliances (especially toasters) ... hopefully like many others you will find your health improves in ways you never thought possible. Once you are certain you have a handle on it you can start introducing new items one by one, the odd meal out then wait 3-4 days just to be sure... then you add that place to your SAFE list. The same for convenience foods etc. .. one by one ad them back...

Do a search on cross contamination on this board and read up... there are so many gotcha's.. and it takes practice as well.

  Quote

Here on Celiac.com the GIG said they are gluten-free.

Its really as matter of how much...

The bottom line is that the FULL report of the analysis McDonalds did found them to contain BOTH gluten and casein ... you have to read it all through because the intro discusses the less sensitive ELISA testing but of you read down to the more enstive RAST testing then they tested positive then the report was written to make it SEEM they don't contain gluten unless you read it all the way through (and most people don't because the intro part has a big technical section after it which most people don't want to read once they figure the into which says the ELISA was negative means they don't contain gluten or casein.

Having said this its a small amount but then some people react to smaller amounts than others...

I also believe that little bits build up... and we all get exposed to tiny amounts (picking someones pen up after they have touched gluten then eating something) etc. so the less you introduce even in tiny amounts is always better ... I have on occasion eaten them out of desperation but usually get caught out either by these or some other desperation meal (due to being in a situation where I'm eating stuff I don't normally) or perhaps a combination of the two ...

The bottom line... they take a huge amount of effort to hide the positive RAST testing in the report... and I don't trust them coupled by the

chance something fell into the friers ... do you really think they will drain them, clean them etc. if a gluten item falls in?

It depends how sensitive you are ....

The UK has a decent amount of awareness but it stops short of really understanding (IMHO)

Equally the supermarkets stock things labelled "Suitable for coeliacs" which frequently conform to "CODEX gluten free" but are not actually gluten free.

I have presently got myself in a bit of a mess with this.

The main problems seems to be that familiarity breeds contempt combined with "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" combined with a reasonable (by European standards) service attitude.

So you can be assured that something is gluten-free then the next thing they are putting bread on your plate or the fries have bits on and then you ask and you find they have been cooked in the same oil as battered shrimps or something... and the familiarity means they don't expect you to drop dead immediately in the resto ....

Having lived in France for 5 years I had the opposite experience. Lack of familiarity meant they had no preconceptions so they don't take it for granted if you are in a decent place... and can explain fully.

Specifically reasonably priced food in the UK tends towards coming from tins, packets and frozen (not everywhere but pretty much) .. so you might be given frozen fries containing gluten because they don't check because fries are potato (or are they).

To my knowledge Italy is the only place TESTS food.... The UK etc. just accept the manufacturers word and give very wide lassitude to gluten-free. Additionally they also have training for chefs and catering staff and they can be certified etc.

Personally I can't eat much of the UK gluten-free food... I tried again and I have been sick since I got here... and the pace of life seems to be forcing me to eat things I'd never consider in France where I cooked mainly my own food from fresh meat and vegetables.

If I had the choice then Italy would be number 1... by a long way... and I found Finland pretty much like the UK in allowing CODEX etc. and a decent familiarity breeding contempt... On top of this the food is really disgusting anyway... (even by UK standards which is pretty bad already) on top of which Italy has real skiing as well as sun.... and you won't be commiting suicide in the winter when its dark for 3 months minimum.

Ireland is quite nice and by all accounts quite coeliac friendly (haven't been there since diagnosis) but outside of Dublin people have more time ... (another problem in London is just everyone is constantly in a rush... and this is never good for getting SAFE food IMHO)

  Quote

The allergy labelling laws in the UK are strick so all process foods will list what is inside their product that cause food allergies.

Unfortunately they are allowed to sneak it in ... so long as it is below the Codex limits ... and noone actually checks anyway... and if you did pay for analysis then you couldn't actually do anything, the company would just claim it was an accident or a poor batch... no manufacturer has EVER been prosecuted for this in the UK ... they have nothing to lose really..

I'll get back to posting but things are really hectic right now...

Just a hello.... I just took a job in London and have been commuting and stuff... to those in the know I'm doing better and will get back as time permits...

gfp/steve

  Quote

I am taking nexium for the ulcers. Does anyone else have this problem with the sore and tight muscles.

Nexium does exactly that to me.... headaches (dull) and muscle pain...

I found out there are two types, the Esomeprazole which is the AstraZenaca version and plain generic omeparazole.

I read somewhere that the Esomeprazole version is not any better, it was a modification for patent purposes, this might or might not be true. What is true is many people seem to get ide effects with only one fo them. I don't take a lot or often but I can take the generic and it works just as well.

Muscle pain is listed in the product sheet ...

  Quote

Did I see Steve some pages back???

No, I'm just a ghost

I'm in London next week for a weeks contracting ....

  Quote

Ok, I don't often go uptown

Well, you might perhaps make an exception....

ah go on go on go on... (Father Ted)...

  Jestgar said:

There are responsibilities inherent in being the token male. And it was the plural "you", meaning all lascivious males. It's up to you to decide if you fit in there or not.

And I wear nothing low cut (I'm a scientist, with all the stereotypical frumpiness), but they stick out. I can't change that.

Hmm white coat and thick rimmed glasses .... sexy ....

On a slightly more serious note .... and something <b>you</b> of all people should realise.

That's what boobs are for ... with the exception of some bovines no other mammal seems to have need for boobs (as opposed to glands and nipples) ... and boobs developed once we were no longer in a position (literally) to sniff each other's bums. (depending when the move from arboreal to semi upright occurred)

Hence men look at boobs in the same way a rabbit is programmed to flee when it sees a white triangle on the bum of another rabbit running. Its part of our programming....

To be honest I'm more of a legs/bum kinda guy... but even so I often find I'm having a conversation TRYING not to look at some womans boobs... Being as I'm a bit weird and ME looking into people's eyes will often freak them out anyway I end up concentrating on someones shoulder....I even know gay guys who find themselves looking at womens boobs...

So bear in mind there are two types of guys... those who admit they look at boobs and those who don't admit.

  Quote

Umm, I asked my hubby about VPL, he doesn't particularly like them, UNLESS they are from a sexy pair of lacy little things ... but the typical VPL's aren't great. So, there's a clear difference of opinion here.

  Quote

I love what the Brits do with our language

That's fighting talk ... we don't take kindly to .....

Actually given the present state of English you're welcome to it...

Please; take my language...no really, take my language.

  2BOYSMOM said:

Hi,

I now that weight gain is a symptom that is rarely mentioned and that severe weight loss is the much more common symptom, but I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced the weight gain? Thanks so much for your imput.

Its not even uncommon... the mechanism works something like...

Your body is not adsorbing nutrients

Your body only really knows it need nutrients so you feel hungry... that's how the body tells you..

However when you eat you only digest the easiest part and you still miss nutrients and hence still hungry

Equally because of this you can end up relying on snack foods and empty calories and same thing... your body still misses nutrients so you still feel hungry.

  Jestgar said:

:lol:

I thought you pick the wine based on what you're eating, not the other way 'round!

Rather depends on several factors....

(seriously even on this thread!)

1/ How serious you are about the wine...

2/ How serious those you are dining with are about the wine

3/ The actual wine available

e.g. If I see a really good wine at a reasonable price (which I consider reasonable and depending on the wine this might exceptionally be $200) then I will chose the food depending on that wine...

However this needs a really good wine list... and for that wine to be a good buy for THAT exact wine/producer and year and also for me to have confidence in the storage of that wine.

As a hint... and you can watch this look at the US price of a Bandol Rose Domaine Ott this year... look at the 06 because that is what you should be drinking because it looses the fragrance very quickly, even when well stored...

Next year prices will have increased by 20-50% (I doubt you'll believe me just write it down and check next summer on the 2007) both will be fine examples...

This has been the premium French Rose for a while but consumption is quite small and exports not that high a percentage but this year as some may have noticed Rose has become a little more popular...

Its one of the most expensive Rose's but then Rose's never command a great price... retail price in France is

  Mtndog said:

laura- You didn't hijack the thread at all. I TOTALLY agree with you. It's NOT all about money. In fact, my doctor prefers to prescribe as little as possible. He told me the statistics after my second episode, not as a way to scare me, but to educate me. I know he was not trying to instill fear in me at all and yes, medication DID give me my life back.

Statistics are just that- statistics. Within a general population there is a 95% chance that something will occur, but individual anomalies are always present and this doesn't take into account other factors that may affect a predisposition towards depression or any other disease.

Just one of my 'alternative' scientific head views on this....

Drugs certainly work ... and I think a lot faster than a proper psychiatric treatment ...

Just my 2c but because their are SOME doctors who will just prescribe drugs this offers a quick fix... and because of the nature of the problem and almost catch-22 nature of being able to do anything positive in life when people are severely depressed then many patients who are either scared of the psychiatric sessions and/or do not have the will and energy to go through them this introduces a large leaning towards the generalist and anti-depression drug treatments.

In other words the statistics are biased in terms of what the question is (well stats always are)

In this case drug treatment offers an escape from dealing with a situation of getting longer term help and this is the choice most people with severe and chronic depression are going to find easiest...

Just my 2c ...

<<<<------ HUGS ------>>>>

For the record, noone on this thread even contributed ..... and I read the lovely comments as well...

I have been going through some "stuff" and my life has fallen apart a bit...

Ursula sweetest HUGS.... I possibly just missed your eMail...sorry.

  Byte Me said:

The site will work with Firefox 2 (I'm using version 2.0.0.3) as long as you have the flash plugin. Spyware is virtually a non-issue with FF, plus if you install the Adblock Plus extension and subscribe to their filter service (all free), you're not gonna see those ads, or tons of ads all over the web for that matter. love it!

You don't have user agent switcher installed too do you?

I'm on a late FF build and flash is definately installed (if I go to the link I provided)....then I can see the site.... and use it so I obviously do have a suitable flash version...

very weird?

aha,,, just read the page source.. it works for FF so long as you are running Windows.

  chrissy said:

susan---catesfolley was correct in her spelling of the generic name of wellbutrine. it is BUDEPRION, not BUPROPRION. i'm glad you shared your story about the problem with the meds. i know they help so many people, but people need to be aware that when the meds aren't working, or the symptoms are getting worse, that maybe the meds could be part of the problem. sometimes a switch in meds can make a world of difference---we just forget to consider that sometimes.

The other problem is of course we just want to feel better!

The MD and shrinks however are more worried about being sued....

If they change a med after you have a bad reaction then .. well it looks like their meds are to blame...and indeed they might be but they might be retiscent to change them immediately ....

If YOU suggest the change then at least they are not playing CYA so much!