gfp

I don't know if the restrictions are different when you fly to Europe, but between here and Australia (and back) they didn't restrict any of my food, only my water.

You might want to see if you can order a raw vegetarian meal, or something similiar. That way you at least have some raw fruits and veggies to go with whatever else you bring. Clif Nectar bars, Alpsnak bars and Organic Food bars can come in handy too.

I spent ages doing this... and noone would give me a firm answer.

I even went through all the stuff your not allowed to import into Oz and again you can't get a straight answer....

Moreover it seemed to depend on who you got... we watched in horror one inspctor guy who seemed to find something in everyone who passed on his line and in the end we got someone else (phew) ... as instructed we declared all leather, wool and then got looked at funny for following the official docs?

We had the same thing with what we could take on flights... its a huge mess because its partly where your flying to, partly the airline and partly the airport security... from where your flying from.

The same goes for gluten-free food on flights.... I just don't know whether to trust it but when I used to the problem was they never really paid attention. They would keep trying to give me the roll etc. even after I explained I couldn't... Im sure it depends on who you happen to get of the flight attendants so its pot-luck even assuming it really is gluten-free to start with.

I just flew to the US this week on Alitalia and I had the gluten free meal.

Yep Alitalia suck for a lot of things (like ever getting your baggage back) but the one thing they do understand is gluten-free....

LOL I've been trying to get her in with one of those too. I tried calling my GI's office so I can beg, but they are at a meeting. Lets hope they agree to take her as a patient!!

My concern is that "if they think you can diagnose celiac with an esophogus endoscopy" then how do I know that they will take the right biopsies and look at them through a microscope when they test my daughter? I don't want to have to put her through a test like this twice because I'm not confident that they performed the test correctly!!

I think its also a problem that even if they do take a good biopsy in a child so young they are notoriously unreliable anyway....

From what you wrote I kinda feel like everyone is passing the buck.. I realise its frustrating but perhaps take a step back and decide based on the expected accuracy of the various tests if its worth putting her through it right now...

If it were me and the biopsy is negative then I still wouldn't want to put my faith in it...

It must be killing you to have to gluten her as well.

In summary there are lots of good folks here, try and find out what is the reliability of the biopsy in a 2 yr old and what would be the accuracy of the skin biopsy for DH.

In some ways a negative biopsy can just be more confusing ...

Great debate. The time and thought put into your posts' have not gone un-noticed. Thanks!

Well, I did a lot of research on this when I was vegetarian.

What I missed doing was in retrospect looking into the other possible problems with wheat and soya proteins, boy did I eat a lot of Soya protein at the time thinking it would be the best replacement... my mom who's also a celaic is actually very soy intolerant, she had some tablets with soy in (actually because of her celiac disease) and was ill until she changed .. in retrospect Im just glad I didn't trigger a soy intolerance in myself.

When I look back my GI probs actually started in this phase. I remember a specific night when I had eaten and the food just sat like a lump of lead ... Im not saying it caused it but I do worry about the amount of TSP I consumed...

Regarding suppliments the big prob for me is they are almost all based on proteins you can develop intolerances for like casein (for non vegans) and soy...

Man I just did a search on the net and there are no other pediatric gastro offices in our state. I'm just so tiered of the charade. How in the heck can they tell me that my son tested negative for Celiac when they were testing for EE. There is no way in heck they would know that. If they think he's negative because they didn't see it during the endoscopy then they have no clue how hard it is to see with the naked eye GRRRRRRRRRR. I could scream right now!!

Is it not possible to take him to a normal GI specialist who has knowledge of celiac disease? I realise you want or prefer a pediatric specialist who knows celiac disease but perhaps it would be better to just find any GI specialist who knows it?

Good question lol!! My daughter has not officially been diagnosed with DH, but I know in my heart that is what she has. One of the reasons I KNEW I was positive for Celiac is because when I first stumbled upon information about the disease my daughter had a rash consistant with DH and we couldn't figure out what it was. There was just way too much of a cooincidence there, and over the years I had all the symptoms and my daughter has many other symptoms as well. The skin specialist was "AGAINST" a skin biopsy because it will only cause her pain that could be avoided if the biopsy comes back positive, so she suggested we have the biopsy first before we subject her to the skin biopsy.

Im not sure of the logic in that, I see the skin specialists point but that's from his perspective. From the perspective of you and your daughter you have to balance long term discomfort vs short term more discomfort for a skin biopsy... and

She's only 2 and her blood tests came back negative, but I have a really hard time getting her to eat gluten because she gets sick. I have been pushing it a lot lately because we have the biopsy on the 20th of this month and she's been so sick the last few days all she does is sleep. She barely eats either, so I had to sprinkle bread crumbs in her beef stew the other day and I'm going to have to do the same thing with her potatoes and other foods to get her to continue to consume gluten until after the biopsy!!

I'm not even sure the biopsy itself is very accurate in toddlers? Nor is it surprising for the blood tests to be positive in such a young child but I would have thought the DH skin bioipsy would be the most likely to give a real result?

I don't envy your position but you will have to make your own mind up, perhaps others know if the skin biopsy is reliable in toddlers, my feeling is it would be because well its either DH or not... and if it were positive you could skip the whole gluten challenge and biopsy and save a lot of distress.

Just my 2c...

Are you actually reading my posts???

He said he did fine until the 3 day trip, which I may add, he did not plan for in any way.

When I planned the trip I had planned for food, between planning the trip and going the regulations changed, no food, no drinks except water in 30ml containers or less to be taken on flights.

If you actually read my posts their was no 3 day trip it was a layover on route to Australia. I'm starting to wonder if its worth correcting this at all and that you are not simply being deliberately contrary. Perhaps I should just leave it to others who have read my posts ? I really don't want you to be the first person I ever add to my ignore list, I don't really like the idea of ignore lists but its getting increasingly tempting just for some peace and not being quoted out of context.

Ok here is the scoop. I took my daughter to a pediatric GI last week and it just so happens that it's the same office that my 5 yr. old went to back when he was 2. They tested him for Eosinophilic Esophagitis because he vommitted after every meal for the first two years of his life.

Well they said they could look back in his records to see if he had Celiac and I asked how they would have seen that if testing for EE and they assured me they would have picked it up. They claim they looked and he does not have Celiac.

Well I just looked up EE and they look in the esophogus and if they take biopsies they take them from the esophogus. How in the heck are they going to find Celiac in the esophogus?

What are my daughters chances at a diagnosis when they assure me that my son does not have Celiac but they never even did the appropriate biopsy?

I think you know the answer .. .. but what age is your daughter anyway? It can be very difficult to get reliable tests from very young toddlers anyway but equally they shouldn't then say "he/she doesn't have celiac disease...."

I don't know what I'd do, at one level I'd worry about their overall competance and also worry that as she gets older they will not be looking for celiac disease. If I were in your position I think I'd be looking for another pediatric GI.... who already knows about celiac disease.

Thanks for posting this. I forwarded the link to my local celiac group so that they can get the word out.

I just wonder how many people react at a level of 20ppm. I know I'm very sensitive and every time I have gotten sick it has been from some tiny crumb because I'm very careful, but I don't know how much does make me sick. I would hate for them to say 20ppm is ok and that still be an amount that gets the very sensitive people sick - that would be worse than no labeling at all.

I agree and though this doesn't directly affect me like you guys I'd say the easiest way is pretty obvious....

Gluten Free should always mean gluten-free.... pure and simple and the limit should be if it can be detected by any method then its not gluten-free.

This gives them something to aim for....

Because of CC and mixed product lines and just plain accidents you can just have a catergory for "very low gluten". Because of the way different levels are tested and relative costs in testing then 20ppm is a sensible cut off.

I can warn about what happened in Europe using the 200ppm and perhaps this is useful but basically companies figured they had some "slack" to play with. Many of the gluten-free breads used wheat products (deglutified) etc. and the 200ppm which was sorta designed as a limit the companies could go up to ended up being a limit they aimed for because there was no certification they could aim for that meant 100%....

I know myself I can eat certain gluten-free breads with wheat starch at <20ppm but I can't eat a lot of it... or regularly. The problem seems to be that the effects of even tiny amounts of gluten are cumulative...

Its totally possible to make 100% gluten-free if you have an audit trail on the supplies and don't use additives. but unless the manufacturers are given something to aim for why would they bother??

Like Jersey angel just said....

What I gave found is after going gluten-free and becoming more sensitive I get similar things all neuro-based for no apparent reason

What I think is that we have different thresholds for GI symptoms and neuro symptoms, perhaps in some people the GI is first and in others the neuro??? For me if I get a tiny CC I sometimes skip the GI symptoms or they are very very mild and short but the brain fog and mood regulation gets messed up as does motor control etc.

Typically one pointer for me is speaking French which although I'm OK always represents an effort for me and I go from my usual bad accented French to not being able to make a whole sentence. My English suffers to but not to the same extent, I'm just short or get tongue tied ...

Jerry's original question was about withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal really has nothing to do with being glutened, after you have been gluten-free for some time. Withdrawal is our immediate reaction to going gluten free in the beginning. Just as an alcoholic needs a drink, some of us feel we need gluten.

Both gluten and casein are classed as exorphins (you can just google exorphin) which means they are external products that mimic the bodies own endorphins. The problem being that the gluten although it attaches and blocks the receptor doesn't fit properly and can damage the endorphin receptor. When the brain detects it needs a pick-me-up it releases more endorphins but when the receptors are damaged they are not taken up and the brain signals for more. Its very much like GERD where stomach acid is being continually produced except its releasing endorphins not bile. the result is that these then start floating around the body and cause a state very similar to opiates. Because we can't control our mood properly we get anxious as the adrenal receptors are functioning normally but their counter balance is not.

Now in a response to gfp (Steve) I thought I could manage 3 days without eating and I was wrong.... but what else should I have done?I feel just as you, I feel you are attacking me for my feelings. You could have prepared for the trip before leaving. You could have had food with you that we can eat. Foreign countries know more about gluten free than the US does, we all know that. The food you needed was available for you to find, it may have taken a little more effort, yet for me, it's worth the effort! You could have taken fruit with you, chips, ricecakes, things we can have. I guess it is determined by how committed you are--I absolutely would not eat gluten, that is my commitment--I would live on water for 3 days first, which can be done. Gluten is arsenic to a celiac and I was poisoned for way too many years to ever intentionally eat it again.

When I planned the trip I had planned for food, between planning the trip and going the regulations changed, no food, no drinks except water in 30ml containers or less to be taken on flights. My intention was to do the 3 days without anything but water and to be able to buy some fruit etc in Vietnam on the 24 hr stopover. The alternative was to try and get a gluten-free meal on the plane which I wouldn't trust anyway.

Foreign countries know more about gluten free than the US does, we all know that.

I'm sorry but that is hardly worth answering. I doubt you have ever been to Vietnam nor most of the 100+ countries I have visited and worked in.

Wow, this really struck a chord with me...

...this will be brief since I've got to get up really early in the mornings so I have to go to bed ASAP.

I just want to encourage you.... I have a 14 yr old son who has only been diagnosed for a few months, and if he was in public school he would have missed SO MANY days by now!

I KNOW he is not faking it because if he doesnt do his schoolwork, he isnt allowed to play his one hour per day of computer games.

Some days, he has such bad brain fog, depression, joint/muscle pain and stomach pain that he cant do his school work or his chores and cant play computer.

He REALLY wants to play computer, and will try really hard to do his list. When he has good days, we double up on the schoolwork to try to catch up on everything he has missed over the past 6 months. When he has bad days he just lays in the living room listening to his history CDs.

I too, was one of those who hated school and exaggerated illnesses to get out of it. Mostly a sore throat, altho I never scrubbed it with a toothbrush!!!!! LOL It did work, my mum let me stay home a lot when I knew I wasnt really sick.

No one can know your kid like you do, and maybe you can find a way to see if he is being honest by using a reward system.

Our reward system (computer time) DOES backfire occasionally.... our son might be REALLY feeling bad, but pushing himself REALLY hard to get those chores done. He'll be fixing to fall over because he is in such pain but insisting he can work. I can always tell how bad it is though by whether or not he can spell. When he is in a brain fog, he forgets how to spell!!

Going to bed!

Wow, I feel a bit less stupid sharing that now, I did wonder but then I thought it best to share) Everyone seems to assume that kids who hate school are being bullied or some other big issue that should be obvious and although these are very important and shouldn't be scoffed at (I have friends who were bullied at school) there can be other deeper reasons. I really don't know exactly why I hated school so much, or why the college was perfectly acceptable (I actually enjoyed it)

Incidentally the comment about the spelling is probably spot on, most of the people I'm close to can spot the changes in my behavior when I'm glutened.

But this is only half the story ... its just as possible he is getting glutened and he has no issue with school other than the "social suicide" of D in class and not feeling well enough to concentrate. So don't get bogged down on this issue its just an alternative ...

Ok, had no idea how totally loaded those 2 little letters were. Crap. So how do you manage not to get CC'd when you are the only one in the family with gluten issues and you still have to cook for the rest of the family??

PS--thanks for letting me in on the secret

The simplest, safest and best is not to cook anything with gluten it it. Many of us find it easiest (for me its just me and my girlfriend usually and I cook 90% of the time anyway, not just the gluten-free thing) to have no gluten in the kitchen at all. On the very rare occasision my girlfreind gets cookies etc. (presents etc.) they are kept ina plastic ziplock inside a special tupperware container that has a big skull and crossbones (well its meant to be I don't draw to good) ...

Really big things to watch are toasters, these are almost a dead cert CC .. but accidentally using the same utensils etc.

When I was first diagnosed I used to try and manage in a mixed kitchen but I had so many accidents and even if you get glutened elsewhere you can never say so I went 100% gluten-free. Seperate conserves and anything that gets a spoon dipped in are really a good start.

Many people have done like I did, some have seperate areas ... etc. its all down to you...

Getting active support of your family is really important in this. When you adapt what you cook and what ingredients you start from its really not so easy to tell its gluten free. Obviously pasta etc. you are using gluten-free pasta but many meals are pretty much gluten free except for things you add that have perfectly good alternatives ... and the more back to basics you go the easier it is and the safer.

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is CC? It's been mentioned several times in this thread (which, by the way, has been a fascinating read).

So what does it mean that I am feeling nothing but great after having been gluten free for--woo hoo--6 whole days (that was a sarcastic woo hoo, by the way)? It took a couple of days, but now that I'm off dairy as well, I feel great. I am having none of my former symptoms to speak of, my energy is endless, my mood almost euphoric...and none of the withdrawl symptoms either. Does it mean anything at all? Does it mean that they will soon come and I just haven't been off gluten long enough to experience any of them?

Oops we switch to a secret language when n00bies are around We can't say its really secret ....

Oh go-on then Cross Contamination.... its a short couple of words but encompasses 90% of the risks when you are trying as hard as you can....(take me with a pinch of salt on this, I get all emotional over this subject)

Anyway, its really important but we covered it lots, indeed so much you'll probably only get half a response now try doing a quick search... if I try and tell you now, (at 4AM after a night out) I'm sure to forget some sources....I actually have a webpage just on this subject but board rules prevent me posting it... so .....

You can start it in the field where a few wheat stalks are present in a corn field because they were grown the year before...

You can say the corn was contiminated in the hoppers used to store it or the bulk transport contracted to deliver it.

Then it can be CC'd in the grinding and milling process or CC'd in the mill then CC'd in the next transport to where its made into tortilla...

I call all these up to here "upstream CC" but that's just me so forget it, it'll never catch on but anyway what I call "downstream CC" (nah that'll never catch on either.).. is once the initial prduct is made (in this case a tortilla) after this the tortilla might be handled by a chef who just touched flour = CC , or dropped onto a surface with a trace of flour CC or the filling could have contacted gluten..or it might be oven cooked and touch a wheat one or deepfried (mmmm) as a chimichanga in oil that has contained gluten.... then finally the plate or knife and fork

As you can see we use it like "thing" is used .... when we don't have a special name for getting glutened we say CC, I say it lots ....

but it doesn't mean anything specific ... anyway, its usually a verb but very flexible.... where cross is used as an auxilary verb and contamination as the ...???? ... did I just write that? Wow I should sleep .. but if you have time try searching for CC or cross contamination .... its a big subject and really important.

I do believe that gfp said clearly and boldly that "he does not recommend it".... He is simply stating that when he gets glutened, based on the severity of the glutening and possibly the violent nature of his body's response, IN HIS CASE he has found that the best way HIS body can deal with it is to take a few days to "wean off" of it, so to speak. Kind of like letting his system down gently, instead of with a crash......

He is by no means condoning INTENTIONALLY glutening, he is just telling others how he deals with it in his own way, what works for him. He is not saying "It's okay to do this" or "It's safe to do it this way", he verly clearly had at the very beginning HE DOES NOT RECOMMEND IT.

Perhaps I am thinking from personal experience here: My dad used to be (for most of his life) a binge alcoholic. Alcoholism has pretty well destroyed his life, relationships with his children, marriage to my mother, the list goes on and on....... When my dad was off alcohol, but fell off the wagon and went on a binge, the easiest way for him to get back off alcohol was through the "weaning" process. Cold turkey would put him into the DDT's so bad, he could very easily have died..... Just trying to give an analogy that would put this into perspective.....

Karen

Karen, I agreed with your earlier statement but didn't say so just to try and be diplomatic which isn't my strong point.

However this is so spot on....I was relating my experiences, its not even that I do this every time I accidentally get glutened either, but it has provided me with insights into withdrawal which was the point of my first post on the subject.... and as your point out I started by saying "I don't recommend this but...."

Sorry to everyone but I started out by saying "I don't recommend this but...." because my whole experience is based on this.... I don't think I should have to defend myself for being honest.... I personally would have a huge problem to try and present the information I found and pretend I came by it any other way, and as Karen says I prefaced the whole post by that disclaimer..... "please kids, don't do this at home" ... perhaps I could have bolded it? Perhaps a large font size? 20/20 hindsight is wonderful but I certainly didn't expect to be attacked for just being honest...

I can't help that I discovered or I believe to have discovered certain things about gluten withdrawal from this, but to me presenting it any other way than complate honesty is not possible..... its either that or nothing ....

I guess perhaps I should have said nothing? Perhaps its like the police stuimbling over evidence that can't be presented in court? Whoah we entered the wrong appartment but their's 50 lbs on heroine here.... but lets pretend we didn't find it ? but I am not like that... I can't be like that.... and I think its really mean for people to attack me over just being honest.

and for me its not the alcoholism thiog though I appreciate why... its making the most of the end of my vacation... I dreads to admit but faced with 3 days of not eating on route to Australia I willingly ate gluten too.

I was sick as a pig, I had to deal with it for the whole vacation (I lost about 20lbs I didn't need to) but in this case I went straight back gluten-free.... I thought I could manage 3 days without eating and I was wrong.... but what else should I have done? i was at the point of being hypoglycemic, I thought I could find peanuts but Air Vietname has wheat noodles... and pretzels??? Should I go into a coma, should I ask for the flight to be grounded and pay millions or should I accept I screwed up and deal with it?

Short of not leaving home and preparing ALL my own meals I have to accept I take a risk... I guess no different from presing Add Reply right now?

You are correct, but I'm just trying to do my job as a moderator.

Respectfully, I was attacked in public while posting about gluten withdrawal.

Also I agree with elctra, even if she doesn't agree with my reasoning that we do have some duty to make sure factual evidence is presented.

One of the main reasons for my long absenses is because this was not happening and the first person answering a topic was not contradicted, factual evidence and direct errors were ignored.

Also I'd like to ask Electra if this is DURING or AFTER ... this being because is it a direct consequence or withdrawal consequence?

Oh well, I've spent way too much time on this. I'm procrastinating from doing something much less enjoyable that having a friendly debate. We may need to agree to disagree and move on.

Its up to you, I am more than happy to debate with anyone who is polite as you are....I'm also happy to provide information and I would appreciate you take time to read it but that's up to you but you should not feel under any obligation to respond if you prefer not.

But you offer nothing to look at.

True, but I do that for a reason...

If you trawl the internet we can both find articles and arguaments in both directions and we can achive nothing.

My first degree is actually organic geochemistry and a very large part of organic geochemistry revolves around amino acids and associated lipids so I take my view of this from the basic definition of amino acids...

Secondly the majority of hard scientific data on protein formation are not available on the internet.

Much of my research on this I did while with access to a university library and scientific journals AND I was a vegetarian (not Vegan) at the time. I am however first and foremost a scientist.

Thirdly the articles you link to make some good points, its the justification behind them which is flawed...and the interpretation of data from previous papers which are not cited nor in context.

Just one example... if you take the atheletes who switched diet and bettered their times...

The article does not mention what their diet was before... nor what the control atheletes were eating, indeed it fails to mention any control at all.

A similar thing can be said about the Carl Lewis article....and what it fail to mention is two fold, firstly Lewis was later found guilty of taking banned substances in 1991 a year after the article was written and secondly and perhaps more importantly than this ...

He told me he was frustrated because all previous eating plans had either caused him to become overweight or left him too weak to compete and win (these were mostly low-calorie, portion-control diets). Shortly afterwards he began eating our recommended low-fat, pure-vegetarian diet and his dilemma was resolved. Yes, he discovered there IS a diet that would allow him to look, feel, function, and perform at his best without ever being hungry

I say why risk it?? Throw the old containers in the trash, garage sale box, or goodwill and forget it. Buy some new ones and then you will not be wondering if "that old flour container" glutened you.

-Jessica

I can't agree more.....

Going gluten-free is not so easy as we think, then once we get used to it its not so hard as we thought

Getting into the routine is hardest and this takes practice and almost everyone makes a few mistakes....

If you can eliminate as many risks as possible then you are more likely to identify the mistakes ...

Financially ... if you wash them in a dishwasher you just contaminated the dishwasher and anything else in there... so then you need to do a few extra runs to be certain? When you compare this to the cost of tupperware its cheaper to replace the tupperware?

If you had a container with some emotional content like a present from your mom or a container you had used in childhood and carries memories then that's a different matter... but for tupperware why take any risk?

it is simply not possible to spend 3 weeks on vacation eating out without taking risks. We most certainly can go on a 3 week vacation and eat without taking risks.

The only way to not take risks is to go self catering and take or buy new your own pots, pans and utensils...

I actually do this but its not possible everywhere so I have to either limit WHERE I vacation or whay I do.

My last trip to Italy we camped half of the time simply so I could be safe... I ate exclusively in gluten-free resto's which were certified by the Italian Celiac society for the 1st two weeks or cooked all my own food in my own pans washed with my own stuff and cooked using my own utensils all flown into Italy or purchased locally specifically.

I still got glutened ...... just as many people here have been glutened using food labelled gluten-free because there is no such thing as zero risk other than eating naturally packaged guaranteed gluten-free food. By naturally packaged I mean for instance a carrot has peel and so even if its been CC'd somehow if you wash it then peel it the risk is so near nothing as to not matter but even meat bought from a butcher etc. can be CC'd.

It's up to you to feed yourself. I have been gluten free for 5 1/2 years and have never been anywhere that I could not find something to eat that would not gluten me. To be honest, if I was to get glutened while on vacation, it would ruin my vacation. The decision is yours to make, you either choose to eat gluten free or you choose not to worry about it.

I did not choose to be glutened, I took every possible precaution not to get glutened and probably a lot more precautions than most people here take on a daily basis.

I suspect I know where it happened but I couldn't say for sure... I react to the smallest amount of CC violently..

It could have been a salad in a tratoria but it could equally have been a gluten-free pizza that somehow touched a non gluten-free one while being carried....or the bottom of a plate which had touched some non gluten-free flour????

At this point I could have chosen many things, I could have cut short my vacation and flown home, I could have not eaten anything at all for 3 days until I got home or I could try and pull something positive out of the holiday...

I have had gluten free pizza that is every bit as good as a pizza full of gluten.

With respect I take it you have never eaten a real Napolitan Pizza in Naples....

You actually sound like you are going through withdrawal, just as an alcoholic WANTS to drink, you want to eat gluten. When you decide you truly want to be healthy, then you will realize you can go through life without being glutened. Accidental glutening is something we must be careful of, yet eating it on purpose is up to us.

"Eating it on purpose" can encompass many things... many many people here are willing to risk prepared gluten-free food but I don't see you telling them they shouldn't eat prepared food? Many people chose to eat for instance McDo fries and again I don't see you telling them they should not say this... whenever I comment on McDo's fries I say that its a risk and people have to make up thier own mind, personally I would not take the risk.

Once glutened you have a whole set of choices.... one of which is no change .. but as you got glutened you were already taking a finite risk. People on average eat 3 meals a day, 365 days a year ... which is 1095 meals a year excluding snacks, beverages etc. Even if each meal only has a 1:1000 chance of glutening you on average this means on average you will still be glutened once a year. If you include beverages like a cup of coffee then this is even higher.(on my recent Australia visit I ordered a latte and a friend actually spotted the spoon was resting on a cookie behind my cup I hadn't seen (this was after verifying it was real milk and not contaminated) - how close was that! I actually just ordered another coffee "without cookie" and left the other cup).. short of being a hermit you can't escape these risks completely.... however ....

What I see NO EVIDENCE for whatsoever is that 2-3 days of glutening does ANYMORE damage than being accidentally glutened by a single breadcrumb, some CC or accidentally sipping someones beer on a regular basis.

Yes there is ... of the parts of celiac we do understand and its peripheral diseases the actual mechanisms of the damage point to long term glutening. The first evidence shopuld be self evident... that is that you can't get a positive biopsy after being gluten-free for 3 years by eating any amount of gluten for 1 day.... you could stuff yourself until you burst for a day and you would not get enough villous atrophy to show up on a biopsy... even 1 week is unlikely and the commonly accepted "safe" (I use that term in a bad sense) minimum to get a positive biopsy is 3 months.

Of all of the related peripheral diseases which are much more life threatening/shortening than celiac disease itself I can't think of any which are not due to the prolonged effects. The only immediately life threatening aspect of a glutening is dedydration from D.... and this is easily preventable.

This is very true but at the same time I choose to go skiing... further to this I chose to ski off-piste and further to this I chose to ski off-piste in areas where there is officially no rescue service.

I wear the correct equipment including a locator, I avoid avalanche risks yet it is not without risks.

I make decisions to minimise these risks but balance this with my enjoyment of the vacation.

I get no pleasure from skiing on-piste its pointless to me except to develop technique...

This is what I call living... not skiing some run I don't even need to fasten my boots.

Skiing is inherently risky but so is driving, working as a lumberjack or power worker ... and most of the jobs I have done my entire life. I enjoy skiing ... I'm not going to stop because its risky.

I also enjoy eating out, especially when in other countries and tasting the best they can offer. It is inherently risky but I love Italy, genuine Italian food and wines etc. Much as its entirely possible to live off fresh uncooked vegetables and tinned tuna for a month it is not my idea of a vacation....

When I am on my death bed considering what I did in life I do not want it to be full of regrets for things I wanted to do but didn't.

We have to judge each thing seperately.....

When I was younger I used to do competitive mountain biking, after loosing friends I decided the risk was too high. It became apparent that if I continued to race and practice competitively I was going to kill myself sooner or later. I gave up semi-pro kick boxing for similar reasons although being able to actually sit a final without a whole lot of broken bones and fractured hand played a part too. I had a friend in my MSc. who skied before her finals and broke her back and had to take her finals in traction...

The reason I gave up my job was two fold, firstly I lost too many friends and was shot at too many times but an equal reason was that it wasn't possible to avoid being glutened while working in the field and that this was happening on a regular basis without recovery inbetween.

I have thought about and considered the condition and risks very carefully....

I am not gluten free because I get C or D, I am not gluten-free because I am worried about what are actually quite trivial cramps - I am gluten-free because of the long term health risks associated with celiac disease.

If celiac disease was just some mild cramps (I consider anything less than the pain of breaking an arm or leg trivial) and D then I would probably not be gluten-free....

I am gluten-free because of the long term health risks....

Let me make it quite clear ... I would not under ANY circumstances do a gluten challenge.... the only exception might be for research but that would be very carefully considered as to any direct benefits of that research and me for some reason or another being a good candidate.

However from all the research into peripheral diseases associated with celiac disease I have looked into long term exposure presents a far far greater risk than 2-3 days of glutening. Not by a factor of 1 or 10 but by factors of thousands...

The best thing to do if you are glutened is obviously to try and get gluten-free as soon as possible however the finite risks associated with 2-3 days compared to a single meal are far far less than those associated with taking a small dose over a long time... they are not zero but they are trivial compared to long term exposure...

I spent nearly 30 yrs eating gluten on a daily basis, my long term prognosis is going to be far more influenced by this than 1-2 episodes a year....

sigh ..

A different perspective on protein and other dietary needs for athletes:

Open Original Shared Link

The idea that plant proteins are incomplete or lacking in quality, while oft-repeated, is untrue. An exploration of the history of protein recommendations, the studies and observations they were based on, etc.:

Open Original Shared Link

Also see The China Study, which found that disease prevalence in China is in proportion to the amount of animal products consumed, the studies by Ornish and Esselstyn on heart disease, by Barnard on diabetes, etc. Lower in quality in what sense, I wonder? The idea that one needs to carefully match plant foods to get "complete" protein has been discredited, but continues to get repeated by folks who haven't explored the actual research -- even by some vegetarians! Sigh ... I can hardly blame anyone here for repeating what they've heard; I just wanted to provide the rebuttal.

Anyway, there are dangers from consuming excess protein:

Open Original Shared Link

There is no "protein deficiency" disease out there among vegetarians.

You build muscle by eating sufficient calories and working your muscles. I am unaware of any study showing that protein powders have any beneficial effect beyond providing additional calories.

Its really not worth picking points through all the quasi-science but I'll do 1 paragraph....

Its the one that corresponds best to your post and you were so polite about it that I owe you an answer for you to either beleive, research yourself or disbelieve as you like. (see my signature)

Studies completed in the early 1940's by Dr. William Rose of the University of Illinois found that l0 amino acids were essential for a rat

I also have to disagree with gfp (sorry, Steve, but good to see you again) that it is not a healthy sport. Most bodybuilders incorporate cardio into their regimen. Also, they are more aware of their diet than the typical person (avoiding junk food). My dad had his prostate out last year and the doctor thought his age on the chart was wrong. My dad was 69 at the time and the doctor thought he was 59. The doctor also said his bones were as strong as someone 20 years younger than him. He's been a weight lifter since he was 15.

Personally, I think Arnold looks very good for his age, much younger than he is, and very healthy.

I'm not saying its not healthy, I just said compared to some other sports

Ahem, boxers do a lot of CV work too, probably more than any other sport except cycling but getting repeatedly hit in the head isn't good for you

The governator looks great... no arguament but then he also freely admits to taking a lof of recreational drugs and I'm sure if you can get him off record he'd admit to taking steroids too....

The problem with serious weight lifting/body building is it wrecks you... its hard for me to put everything down to one thing... since I did semi pro kick boxing while paying my way through college this has left its marks as well but on many occaisions doing serious weights I ripped ligaments and torn muscle beyond what is healthy... and also considerably stressed my joints which has caused other problems as I got older.

Lifting a few weights is healthy but trying to compete even at a level below steroids seriously wrecks your body... the problem is there comes a point where the only way to get bigger is pushing harder and harder but Im not talking about casual lifting in the gym, Im talking about seriously going for it... to the point where when you train you are so past it is no longer an issue....

Incidentally at the same time I was doing this I also damaged myself just doing sit-ups... you'd think they were safe but one day I decided to do 5,000 and the crazy guys at the gym took it in turns to hold my legs... for the several hours it took... as it turned out I damaged slightly my spine just from the continuous rubbing of my coccyx ...

However even if its not the healthiest in terms of the damage you do yourself at "serious" levels moderate weight training is fine... however I think when you start calling it "weight lifting" for those of uis that did this competitively we consider "body building" or "weight lifting" a different level .. its not a sport or passtime but a way of life...

If your whole week is not planned around eating, gym and eating then I'd say that's not this level,.... so perhaps we are talking about different things

If the lab is onsite then there is no reason I can think of its not the same day....I don't think there is any time dependant sample prep though i could be wrong... but I know Aga, AgG and tGa can be done the same day anyway..

just remembered your doing dgenetic stuff which I think will take overnight...

You know as a non parent it never ceases to amaze me how parents try and be perfect....

I think you loose something when you become a parent although you obviously gain much more more...

Anyway my own dear mom laments this and that, she apoligises for this that and the other... accusing me of being a hypochondriac when I was undiagnosed was actually the only one that hurt!

I was was such a complete ***tard she flipped and through a cardboard salt pot at me... then made me clean it up...

and she apologised for me being a complete idiot...

You know all that matters is your LOVE....

If the worst had happened and she had lost a toe.... missed a vacation etc. it all heals with time and you are already giving her the most important gift a mother can give...

So everyone, yes be careful out there but if the unexpected happens it happens and i still maintain the biggest thing you have is your unconditional LOVE ! Now you just made me phone my MOM.... I don't do it half often enough!

The single most important thing is is it red or dark brown....

Bright red means its fresh.... this is usaully no cause for concern but still something to mention to a MD....

If you have D its not unusual, but its just overuse.... (ahem)... but it should still be mentioned !! A one off few days while you have D is no big shakes... its the sort of thing you can phone about if its infrequent and your not ill enough to feel you need an appointment... let the MD decide...

Brown means its come from internally... and is definately something to see a GP about....in a serious way like soonest possible appointment....

In my experience this is a double sided thing.....

Its probably just as important that you exclude foods that prevent sleep as ones that help....

For instance what would you have if not the rice?

Does anyone have any sleep secrets?

This isn't a secret, indeed any serious sleep problem clinic will tell you it.... leastwise of they aren't making money prescribing drugs etc.

The single most important thing for sleeping is establishing a regualr pattern .... since going to bed early doesn't help rather hinders since you just get frustrated at not going to sleep after you made an effort to turn in early this only leaves waking at the same hour everyday regardless of how much you slept.

This is the single most effective way I know and was given to me by someone who had such severe sleep problems she was a special study case in a national instiute for sleep studies. I have since passed it on to several people and used it myself and so long as you stick to it and get up no matter how tired you are its the best and most natural way....and most sustainable long term.

Once you get into a cycle you can after a while play about with an extra hour here or there and I recently managed a Australia trip without much hassle whereas before I would have been sufferig sleeplessness for weeks after.

The second most effective is reducing stimulants especaily after lunch....coffee is obvious but its really true, if you are having problems and you drink it after lunchtime it will make thenm worse ... however there are quite a few other stimulants which are less widely known such as Rosemary... indeed looking through an aromatherpy reference manual will be the best... and you will also find the ones which help you sleep.

Sage springs to mind.... but you can also start drinking stuff like Sleepytime tea... my girlfriend imports this from America so

hope that helps....

This splits up into two neat categories....

This is probably not what you want to hear but my guess would be either he is still getting gluten from somewhere, possibly in cross contamination or shampoo or other products, or he has another intolerance as well as gluten.

....

I couldn't agree more including the part not quoted....

The second one ... I even hesitate to say but considering your dilemna I am going to say it anyway and everyone will think I'm a complete idiot... my only defense being I was really young!

As a kid I suffered from tonsillites ... but really not that badly... however I hated school completely and utterly.

I can't really express how much I hated it except to say as a 5-6 year old I would rather do household chores than go to school by a very long margin and boy did I hate chores.

However tonsilites developed into a pattern and got me off school much quicker than belly ache which looking back I suffered more completely (hardly surprising now I look back) but mom was much less likely to pack me off to school if I had a sore throat than belly ache...

In most of the caees the tonsilites wasn't even genuine or if it was it was over exagerated.... whereas the belly ache was but even when I exagerated the belly ache by deliberatly making myself sick I still got packed off to school.... I guess because once or twice the Dr. had confirmed tonsilites.

Well my frequent tonsilites was cause for concern, even though in many cases it magically cleared up before the Dr. saw it... and neither ws I against rubbing my throat with a toothbrush until it bled... so from my mothers perspective she would make an appointment because I was spitting out blood then by the time I got to the Dr. all he would see was a really inflamed throat... it worked far better than I expected (I told you I was stupid) with me having a tonsilectomy... of course by this time it was no good protesting and I had furnished the evidence myself.... but now I needed another excuse....

Just to demonstrate how much I hated school our neighbours but one had a daughter my age and I remember one time getting her to spit and cough over my toast so I could be ill. The thing is I wasn't bullied or anything at school, indeed for the most part I was just ignored and if anything bullied less than anyone because people were genuinely terrified of me because on the occaisions people did try and bully me I totally freaked out (and I mean totally and utterly) I still hate being touched at all by people I am not very close to .... but anyone actually shoving me around or hitting me got much much worse than they deserved pretty much regardless of size or how much I got hurt in the process.

Whenever I tried to bring up not going to school it was a non-debatable subject unless I had my magic tonsilites. I nver actually had it in me to pick on anyone else but I used my freaking out as another way to get sent home and suspended and if anyone ever did pick on me I made sure the damage I did was enough to get me sent home for as long as possible.

If as Mtndog says something is happening at school (or in my case I just detested school full stop) you could be getting yourself worked up over the wrong thing.... However since I was already doing this at 5-6 and he's now 14 he's going to be a lot more difficult to get this out of unless you are really transparently upfront and willing to deal with the issue which is hardly going to be easy....regardless of how much you care!

However one thing is at this age they can see and end... I never actually got to liking school ever.... when I was in my early 20's I had to go into a school (summer work for a playground equipment manufacturing company) and I was upset (shaking, nausia and cold seats) from stepping close to the school so much I physically vomited. I guess this could be a hangover from what I used to feel everyday... who knows... (and I really don't want to find out, somethings are best left alone)

Its actually distressing for me to write this post... but considering your dilemna I'll push on... Im a big boy now...

Anyway ... the solution was two fold... firstly I had a nasty experience working part time which made me worry. Up to this point I had deliberatly screwed my grades in the hope I would get sent to a different school (I had lots of friends where I lived which wa quite a distance from my school and the only one of this group whom went to this school)

The second thing was my father (who had been absent more or less from 11-14) made me a deal.

The deal was I got my grades anyway I could.... I had to attend school the minimum but so long as I was in the top 5% of the school on average I was allowed to skip school ...

I never worked so freakin hard in my life! and my entire motivation was keeping out of school.

I went from the very bottom set out of 9 to top in my year in several subjects in a single semester in all exams.

I am academically quite good but that what wasn't made me top of the year..... I literally worked my ass off I did more study and revision in the first semester than I had in the entire time up to that semester.

When I got to 16 we take the exams to continue education or work ... I got straight A's in everything but history when I got a B+ (largely down to me changing to European economic history of the 18C to British social history of the 16-17C at the last minute (because I had been in lower sets the exams were different and the timetabling didn't fit)....

At 16 most people who continue education in the UK stay in school in what is termed 6 form to take "A" levels but again I managed a bargain and studied mine in a college for adult education ... most of the people were much older and returning to study after working and this fitted me fine... although it was a bit of a shock being dumped back in my age group at Uni...

I have no idea what options are open to you on this.... or if it is the problem not just CC ... only you can find that out but I think at 14 you are going to have to come up with a genuine deal....