Cross-reacitivity to other food antigens, mimicking gluten proteins.

[JamieRmusic]

This has been a long debate for a while. Cyrex did some tests back in 2012 or 2013, and many claim them to be lacking.

I stumbled across this research paper which was quite interesting and I feel is worth a read. It is, in fact, a big chance that our bodies do react to these foods as if it were gluten. I personally have that reaction to ALL grains like quionoa, teff, but also potatoes (not sweet potato), jasmin rice (high in arsenic etc anyway best to limit), sesame, hemp, eggs, corn...

A good idea to look into these if healing is slow, stagnant or moving backwards.

Research paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271288328_Cross-Reaction_between_Gliadin_and_Different_Food_and_Tissue_Antigens

[Scott Adams]

I've seen this study but am a bit skeptical of it's findings. While I do believe that people with celiac disease are more prone to have additional food intolerance issues, I don't believe that the cause is due to "molecule mimicry" or what this describes as "cross-reactivity." Additional food intolerances are likely separate issues, and they can be temporary and are likely caused by the leaky gut condition. 

After my diagnosis I could not eat chicken eggs, dairy (casein), tomatoes, corn, garlic, etc., but after around two years gluten-free I was able to add those items back to my diet without issues.

I do think more research needs to be done on this because you're correct, many celiacs don't fully recover on a gluten-free diet, and many need to eliminate other foods before they feel better.

[JamieRmusic]

I see your point. It's safe to say at this point it's, like you say, there is simply too little evidence to sway either way. Instead taking a hands on approach and eliminate problematic foods regardless of cause, and try them again later seems to be the best option.

May I ask what you ate while on the road to cure? I can barely eat anything besides 20 vegetables, olive/coconut/mct oil and some chicken. Struggling with maintaining weight etc. Been gluten free for 12 years, but had celiac since age 2.

Makes perfect sense. Thought it was an interesting research paper and wanted to see other peoples opinion on it

[knitty kitty]

Have you tried the Autoimmune Paleo Diet? 

"Efficacy of the Autoimmune Protocol Diet for Inflammatory Bowel Disease"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5647120/#!po=42.1569

This diet really helped me.

Found this explanation of "cross reactivity" for you.....

https://www.thepaleomom.com/gluten-cross-reactivity-update-how-your-body-can-still-think-youre-eating-gluten-even-after-giving-it-up/

Hope this helps!

Edited February 17, 2021 by knitty kitty
Add link and information

[Scott Adams]

I was in my mid-twenties when I was diagnosed, and was also focused on gaining weight after losing some, so the main focus of my diet for around two years became rice, potatoes, meats, soy, as well as most vegetables and fruits. As @knitty kitty points out, there are now more focused diets that tackle many autoimmune issues that can be triggered by foods, and another diet for you to explore might be a low FODMAP diet, as it helps many celiac who continue to have IBS symptoms after going gluten-free.

[CMCM]

On 2/16/2021 at 4:22 PM, Scott Adams said:

I've seen this study but am a bit skeptical of it's findings. While I do believe that people with celiac disease are more prone to have additional food intolerance issues, I don't believe that the cause is due to "molecule mimicry" or what this describes as "cross-reactivity." Additional food intolerances are likely separate issues, and they can be temporary and are likely caused by the leaky gut condition. 

After my diagnosis I could not eat chicken eggs, dairy (casein), tomatoes, corn, garlic, etc., but after around two years gluten-free I was able to add those items back to my diet without issues.

I do think more research needs to be done on this because you're correct, many celiacs don't fully recover on a gluten-free diet, and many need to eliminate other foods before they feel better.

I was just reading about the idea of molecular mimicry in Tom O'Bryan's book "Autoimmune Fix" and I can't decide what I think about it.  Some of what he described makes sense, but overall it seems like it's still more hypothetical rather than settled science.  As one example, he said 50% of those with celiac disease also react to corn....and he claims the reason is molecular mimicry due to how the corn proteins look similar enough to gluten proteins that they provoke an immune system response.  Well, maybe so, but then maybe not.  And how about milk proteins?  I had dairy problems well before I ever ate wheat.

The more I read the more I realize how much is unknown about gluten and its effects.

[Scott Adams]

Just like there are 8 top allergens, there are likely at least 8 foods responsible for the vast majority of food intolerance issues, and the two groups seem to overlap quite a bit.

It's a bit of speculation on my part, but due to my own experience I believe that in many cases of food intolerance and/or celiac disease eating foods which you may be allergic to on some level might later trigger more severe reactions that lead to food intolerance. In my case I had RASP allergy testing done by a board certified immunologist (Dr. Rudolf Kallenbach, MD) way back in the mid-1980's that indicated that I had strong reactions to many of the foods that I later had intolerance issues with (wheat, corn, tomatoes, eggs, cow's milk, etc). He in fact told me that I should not eat wheat more than once per week. Being around 20 and feeling relatively healthy with the exception of chronic nasal clogging issues, I thought that was a crazy idea and ignored him.

Around 5 years after that I developed full blown celiac disease and leaky gut, which triggered not only an issue with gluten, but, for several years, I could also not tolerate many of the things that he had warned me about. After several years I began adding those things back to my diet without any serious issues (except gluten of course). Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't at least be rotating those same foods, and eating them less frequently. I'm in the process of doing an ALCAT test for food intolerances, which is supposed to be far more advanced than the RASP tests that I did way back. I'll be doing an article on my experience, but it may lead me to do some more dietary changes.

On a side note, the fact that (at least from preliminary Internet search results) Dr. Rudolf Kallenbach, MD and his wife may still be alive and practicing allergy treatment (for 67 years!) is a bit mind boggling...I'm not sure if it's true. He seemed like a very old man to me at the time. If it's true perhaps heeding food allergies may one day be linked to longevity.

[CMCM]

The ALCAT test sounds interesting.  Are you doing a home kit that you send in?  If so, which one are you doing?  I was just looking on a site called cerascreen, but they had 3 different tests.  One for food allergy, another for food sensitivity + allergy tests, and a third (most expensive) one called Extensive food sensitivity & allergy (238 foods).

[JamieRmusic]

Just now, CMCM said:

but they had 3 different tests.  One for food allergy, another for food sensitivity + allergy tests, and a third (most expensive) one called Extensive food sensitivity & allergy (238 foods).

I previously did a few of those type of tests. In the end they never were conclusive, didn't change my diet into a direction which caused healing and honestly weren't accurate enough to be worth it.

Many foods which showed up as being problematic weren't a problem at all and it would just narrow down food selection without big reason.

Maybe they are better now, but I'd just be a bit cautious I'm only speaking of sensitivity tests and the extensive tests. Allergy on the other hand have great value.

[CMCM]

Just thinking about allergy and food reactions....my son (now 35) has a very severe reaction to peanuts, in addition to being celiac (which we didn't know until about 8 years ago).  He had his first reaction to peanuts when he was about 3, so we did a lot of allergy testing at that time (skin prick type tests).  I remember the allergist telling us that with the usual allergen suspects, most people should not eat them daily, and rather, rotate on a 4 or 5 day basis.  That was probably wise advice, even today.

[JamieRmusic]

@knitty kitty Thanks I'll take a look at it. Haven't tried AIP, but I know about it. Currently using Fast Tract Diet and it helped me a lot, but have made some poor food choices the past few months due to a lot of life stressors which I couldn't fix.
 

@Scott Adams Thanks for the reply! Yeah, lowFODMAP works for many people. It worked initially 8 years ago, but since things have gotten progressive more complex with the years it isn't enough.

Currently using the Fast Tract Diet designed by Dr. Norman Robillard. You might be familiar with it. If not, TLDR; It limits fermentation, which reduces overgrowth and should improve gut without much else. It's even got a calculator with all foods to figur eout what you can eat. Essentially, enables much broader selection with less issues.

Regarding your story. Funny how we just choose to ignore our problems until the body or universe shuvs it into our faces so we have to deal with it. I did exactly the same thing. I'm glad you figured it all out and got your healing going.

The test you speak of. May I ask which one it is? You got my interest peaked!



@CMCM Regarding the book by dr. Tom O'Bryan. I never got around to read it, but it's like you said... hard to know what's true without substational, repeated, proven, RTC studies with preferablly some meta analysis to tie it all together.

As for food rotation. I believe that's a good idea for everyone to be honest At least a day off, but preferably 2.

[Scott Adams]

The test I just took and am awaiting the result for is the ALCAT test (note that they have been a sponsor of this site in the past, but currently are not, and the only compensation for the article I am doing for them is a free test, which will be disclosed in the article):

https://cellsciencesystems.com/patients/alcat-test/

PS - They do have a lab in Germany too.

[JamieRmusic]

@Scott Adams very interesting. Looking forward to seeing the result of your test and change in diet. And if transcribes into positive health changes down the road.

Btw, if you still have issues with certain foods then I really suggest looking into IGG supplementation and CBD. For me it's been what took me out of being a tough case into feeling normal again (while having access to it).

[Scott Adams]

I forgot to mention that last week we did a summary of older (2018) research which shows that cow's milk protein can also cause elevated Anti-tissue transglutaminase antibodies (tTG) in some people, so it makes me wonder if cow's milk can also cause flattened villi, and if this is a separate condition from celiac disease:

 

[Scott Adams]

This is an interesting new study on the ACLAT test and weight loss that just broke...not sure what it means for celiacs in general, but it does seem to show that chronic inflammation caused by food intolerances could interfere with the body's ability to process calories:

https://news.yahoo.com/cell-science-systems-reports-weight-213700426.html

[JamieRmusic]

On 2/25/2021 at 6:55 PM, Scott Adams said:

This is an interesting new study on the ACLAT test and weight loss that just broke...not sure what it means for celiacs in general, but it does seem to show that chronic inflammation caused by food intolerances could interfere with the body's ability to process calories:

https://news.yahoo.com/cell-science-systems-reports-weight-213700426.html

Late reply... That's interesting for sure. Thanks for sharing! I'll take a look.

I've been having a rough time with a lot of symptoms... hence my vanishing, but stumbled across something in the process.

Oxalates seem to be the cause of histamine intolerance and salicylate issues for many people. Which potentially can contribute towards a "leaky gut", SIBO (because the oxalate crystals make the fungal defend themselves by creating biofilm, as well as scar and damage nerve / tissue in the small and large intestine. Damaging the motor function and creating a stagnant state) and apparently many other factors.

I've done some testing and I can notice a direct correlation while eating foods containing it, or cutting oxalate foods down. Having eaten medium - high oxalate for a long time. Every time stopping I'd get crazy amount of dumping into the blood, which in turn created a host of symptoms. Because the oxalates binds with calcium and other minerals, it can end up being transported to all sites in the body and get swapped in instead of calcium, magnesium etc. This creates a host of problems in every part of the body, not just the kidneys. Aka kidney stones.

It wasn't until now that I finally connected the dots. Did a lot of digging and it can be eased with calcium, magnesium and potassium citrate supplement to bind and flush it out in the urine. Lemon juice and salts will start the bodys process of flushing out these crystals.

With a stubborn case of celiac, which doesn't heal. Food sensitivities, especially towards salicylates and oxalate foods. This is worth digging into. Reduction has to happen gradually as high amounts of oxalate in the body is poisonous and can overload the system.

Here's some info.

Elliot Overton
https://www.eonutrition.co.uk/post/sulfate-v-an-introduction-to-oxalate-toxicity-gut-dysbiosis
(#91: Oxalate Poisoning & Dumping - Why YOU Should Care ~Elliot Overton (part 1))

Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2xF4iWMpqdwoDV26gV2cHS
https://open.spotify.com/episode/72Ba1Xnmoy63hm9ss8rWKV

Youtube

 

Dr. Michael Ruscio
https://drruscio.com/dietary-oxalates-healthy-foods-harm-sally-norton/
https://drruscio.com/tag/low-oxalate-diet/

Dr. Peter Osborne
https://www.glutenfreesociety.org/oxalates-on-a-gluten-free-diet/

Dr. Sally K Norton (her page has a lot of info)
https://sallyknorton.com/oxalate-science/oxalate-basics/

https://sallyknorton.com/interviews-talks/

 

Mastcell360 with Beth O'Hara, also talks about oxalates quite a bit.

[Scott Adams]

I agree with you about oxalates causing many people issues, and we've don't some great articles on this topic:

https://www.celiac.com/search/?&q=oxalate&type=cms_records2&search_and_or=and&search_in=titles 

Thanks for the info and links, it might be time for another article on this topic.

PS - Lectins are another interesting possibility:

https://www.celiac.com/celiac-disease/lectins-are-toxins-r3533/ 

[JamieRmusic]

Awsome! Thank you for the link. Will do some digging as I see there are a lot of articles on the subject. 

Yeah, lectins are also a big one. I cut that out a few years back. Seems like plant foods do cause a lot of people issues. Makes one wonder.

[Blue-Sky]

Here is a link about the limits of these types of tests:

https://www.glutenfreewatchdog.org/news/gluten-and-cross-reactivity/

[Scott Adams]

On 2/19/2021 at 1:43 PM, JamieRmusic said:

@Scott Adams very interesting. Looking forward to seeing the result of your test and change in diet. And if transcribes into positive health changes down the road.

Btw, if you still have issues with certain foods then I really suggest looking into IGG supplementation and CBD. For me it's been what took me out of being a tough case into feeling normal again (while having access to it).

FYI: Here is the article on my ALCAT experience: