DH reaction to rice or rice flour?

[Maureen Haley]

I developed DH in middle age and follow a strict gluten-free diet.  Lately, I've been breaking out in dermatitis herpetiformis rash from gluten free foods that I've been eating for the last few years. By process of elimination, I've discovered the culprit is rice and rice flour. I hadn't had any problems with this previously, as a matter of fact rice has been my go to substitute for pasta for several years

Has anyone else experienced this?  I also recently become somewhat lactose intolerant, so it seems I'm developed more food sensitivities as I get older

[Scott Adams]

Grains can be cross-contaminated when shipping them in box cars, or at the mill when they are ground into flour. Perhaps you should look for a rice flour that is labelled "gluten-free"? Normally it would be gluten-free, but just to be sure this is what I would do.

[Maureen Haley]

4 hours ago, Scott Adams said:

Grains can be cross-contaminated when shipping them in box cars, or at the mill when they are ground into flour. Perhaps you should look for a rice flour that is labelled "gluten-free"? Normally it would be gluten-free, but just to be sure this is what I would do.

Thanks! I'll give that a try

[Awol cast iron stomach]

I reacted to store bought rice as well. I found some rice noodles at the international market I am ok with. I also began to order rice from Nuts.com gluten-free specific menu.

I have gluten and corn issues. So I need to watch cc from both.

Good luck 

[Maureen Haley]

1 hour ago, Awol cast iron stomach said:

I reacted to store bought rice as well. I found some rice noodles at the international market I am ok with. I also began to order rice from Nuts.com gluten-free specific menu.

I have gluten and corn issues. So I need to watch cc from both.

Good luck 

Thanks for letting me know!  It's nice to know I'm not being weird.  Or more weird than usual🤪

[Sahamies]

On 9/8/2021 at 12:58 PM, Maureen Haley said:

I developed DH in middle age and follow a strict gluten-free diet.  Lately, I've been breaking out in dermatitis herpetiformis rash from gluten free foods that I've been eating for the last few years. By process of elimination, I've discovered the culprit is rice and rice flour. I hadn't had any problems with this previously, as a matter of fact rice has been my go to substitute for pasta for several years

Has anyone else experienced this?  I also recently become somewhat lactose intolerant, so it seems I'm developed more food sensitivities as I get older

 

[Sahamies]

Yes rice has gluten, so you have to give it up.  It is not as strong as wheat, but still problematic.  People who are gluten intolerant and eat gluten can’t have dairy.  The villi in the small intestine flatten, so they are lactose intolerant.  Some people, who are lactose intolerant can have dairy with more fat in it like ice cream.  Some can tolerate lactose free milk.

[trents]

1 hour ago, Sahamies said:

Yes rice has gluten, so you have to give it up.  It is not as strong as wheat, but still problematic.  People who are gluten intolerant and eat gluten can’t have dairy.  The villi in the small intestine flatten, so they are lactose intolerant.  Some people, who are lactose intolerant can have dairy with more fat in it like ice cream.  Some can tolerate lactose free milk.

The gluten containing grains are wheat (in its several varieties), barley and rye. Strictly speaking, rice does not contain gluten and neither do oats, though I have heard of "oat gluten" used informally. About 10% of celiacs react to the oat protein avenalin like they do gluten. Lots of people with celiac disease (e.g., those who can't tolerate gluten) don't have a problem with dairy but dairy intolerance is not uncommon within the celiac community and for these people the dairy protein "casein" can flatten villi.

No offense intended, my friend, but you are misinformed. More than likely you are having DH and other celiac symptoms because gluten from wheat, barley or rye has crept into your diet. Studies have shown that most people who believe they are eating gluten free are actually eating a low gluten diet. This especially true of those who are still eating out. Food companies can and do change their recipes and things that were once gluten free may no longer be. Also, there is the problem of cross contamination. Gluten can also be found in medications and supplements.

Lactose is the sugar component in milk and is the problem in lactose intolerance. Milk fat does not cause lactose intolerance. Some people mistakenly think they are lactose intolerant when the problem is really the dairy protein, casein.

[Sahamies]

Yes rice has gluten called Orzenin.  Rice is a grain.  I am very much allergic to rice.  For a long time, I was only allergic to the traditional gluten grains such as wheat,rye, oats, and barley.  In the last few years, I was also became allergic to corn and rice.  At first it was difficult, but as long as you feel well.  If you don’t believe me, look up Dr. Osborne on YouTube.  He is an expert on gluten.

Also, I can eat ice cream, but not yoghurt which is low in fat.  I said fat in dairy is not the problem.  I don’t eat gluten or grains of any kind.  I don’t take medication either.

[Scott Adams]

Just to clarify, Orzenin is not an issue for the vast majority of those with celiac disease, but may be an issue for some. Anyone can have a food intolerance to almost anything, but rice and corn are considered safe for celiacs.

[trents]

Gluten is a specific protein found only in wheat, barley and rye. It goes by no other name. There are somewhat similar proteins found in other cereal grains but technically speaking, they are not gluten.

https://www.beyondceliac.org/gluten-free-diet/is-it-gluten-free/rice/ "Yes, all rice (in its natural form) is gluten-free. This includes brown rice, white rice and wild rice. Even Asian or Sticky rice, also called “glutinous rice,” is gluten-free, despite its name. In this case, the “glutinous” term refers to the sticky nature of the rice and not the gluten protein found in wheat, barley and rye."

There is only one cause for DH and that is celiac disease. Celiac disease is not an allergy but an autoimmune response to the ingestion of gluten. You say you have allergies to various grains. This is not a celiac reaction and would not cause DH. And I'm not sure why you get a rash when eating various grains besides wheat, barley and rye but it's not from gluten. You must be reacting to something else in those grains.

Yogurt is generally lower in fat than ice cream but you can buy it with different amounts of fat or no fat at all. We buy Fage brand yogurt that has 5% milk fat, 1% more than whole milk. There is fermenting process done by bacteria that breaks down much of the lactose in yogurt and also the protein casein. Therefore it can be a healthier choice for those with dairy allergies:

"With regard to digestion, yogurt is really the healthier dairy product as compared to milk because it is digested easier and faster within the body. This is achieved with the help of yogurt’s special culturing process. The culture mechanism artificially creates the enzyme lactase. This enzyme is said to be the ones lacking among lactose intolerant individuals. Another not so heard enzyme, beta-galactosidase is also created in the culture process. This aids in better absorbing lactose, which is practically useful for those who are lactose intolerant. Not sure why you can eat ice cream but not yogurt. It doesn't make sense . . . The rest of the bacterial enzymes resulting from the culture are able to break down casein, a milk protein, which makes the yogurt less allergenic." http://www.differencebetween.net/object/comparisons-of-food-items/difference-between-milk-and-yogurt/

I have two questions for you:

1. Have you been officially diagnosed with celiac disease?

2. Have you been officially diagnosed with DH?

 

[knitty kitty]

39 minutes ago, Sahamies said:

Yes rice has gluten called Orzenin.  Rice is a grain.  I am very much allergic to rice.  For a long time, I was only allergic to the traditional gluten grains such as wheat,rye, oats, and barley.  In the last few years, I was also became allergic to corn and rice.  At first it was difficult, but as long as you feel well.  If you don’t believe me, look up Dr. Osborne on YouTube.  He is an expert on gluten.

Also, I can eat ice cream, but not yoghurt which is low in fat.  I said fat in dairy is not the problem.  I don’t eat gluten or grains of any kind.  I don’t take medication either.

 

@Sahamies,

Welcome to the forum!  

We like to get our terminology correct here, so let's explore this further.  

Rice DOES NOT contain GLUTEN.  

The protein in rice, Orzenin, resembles the gluten molecule.  In some people, their antibodies identify that section of Orzenin that resembles the gluten molecule, thereby further stimulating the immune system to react to this similar protein.  

It's the same situation with Corn (maize) protein called zeins.  

And, Casein, the protein in dairy, can trigger the immune system because parts of it resembles gluten.  

Yeasts have protein sections that resemble gluten and can cause immune reactions in some people.  

Chicken meat also has protein sections that will cause an immune response like gluten will. 

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3820067/

So, proteins in chicken meat, rice, corn, yeast and dairy don't contain gluten, but proteins similar to gluten, which can elicit an immune response in sensitive Celiacs.

Another reason many Celiac patients cannot tolerate dairy is microbial transglutaminase. 

Microbial transglutaminase is  added to dairy products like ice cream and yogurt to improve texture and shelf life.  It's also added to gluten free baked goods. 

Microbial transglutaminase is produced by bacteria and acts the same as  tissue transglutaminase that Celiac people produce when exposed to gluten.  (Tissue transglutaminase in the blood is measured as part of the diagnostic criteria in Celiac Disease.)  

Microbial transglutaminase causes leaky gut and stimulates an immune response the same as human tissue transglutaminase.  

Transglutaminases in Dysbiosis As Potential Environmental Drivers of Autoimmunity

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5258703/

 

[Sahamies]

I don’t need a doctor to tell me that gluten makes me ill.  If gluten makes you ill, then you are gluten intolerant.  I see you haven’t read anything about Dr. Osborne.  He wrote a book called:  No grain, no pain.  It is very good.

[trents]

27 minutes ago, Sahamies said:

I don’t need a doctor to tell me that gluten makes me ill.  If gluten makes you ill, then you are gluten intolerant.  I see you haven’t read anything about Dr. Osborne.  He wrote a book called:  No grain, no pain.  It is very good.

I are not doubting that various grains cause you physical distress but what I and others on this forum are challenging you on is your indiscriminate use of the term "gluten" in connection with other cereal grains besides wheat, barley and rye. And if Dr. Peter Osborne says these other grains contain gluten he is wrong. By the way, Dr. Osborne is not a medical doctor. He is a nutritionalist and his "doctorate" is in chiropractic medicine. If rice makes you ill then it's not from gluten.

I have concern about your self-diagnosis of a gluten-related disorder and particularly your self diagnosis of DH. That rash could be something else besides DH and the distress that various grains cause you could be due to something else. You say you don't need a doctor to tell you that gluten makes you ill yet you rely on a doctor of chiropractic medicine who has a misconception about gluten to inform your self-diagnosis. I think it is time for you to go to some real doctors and request a celiac screen and a DH biopsy.

[Sahamies]

I don’t have a rash and I never did.  Doctors don’t know much about nutrition in my experience. Dr Osborne’s book has helped. The diet I am on now I think is fine.  I don’t need a celiac screen.  But thanks anyways.

[trents]

5 minutes ago, Sahamies said:

I don’t have a rash and I never did.  Doctors don’t know much about nutrition in my experience. Dr Osborne’s book has helped. The diet I am on now I think is fine.  I don’t need a celiac screen.  But thanks anyways.

No rash? But you say you have DH which is a rash.

[Sahamies]

I never said I have DH.  I don’t know what that is.

[trents]

9 minutes ago, Sahamies said:

I never said I have DH.  I don’t know what that is.

Sorry, my mistake about the DH. It was included in another post you quoted that was made by someone who does have DH.

My concern is that you may be missing a health issue that is not related to gluten. Have you looked into SIBO? It is true not many medical doctors know much about nutrition but it is possible the distress you feel when eating grains is not a nutritional problem per se. Are you anti traditional medicine?

Edited January 2, 2022 by trents

[Sahamies]

No I don’t have sibo or ibs.  Since I don’t eat grains of any kind, I am fine.  I think my gluten intolerance was caused by pernicious anemia.  I have treated that by eating liver every day for the rest of my life.  Still I will never be able to eat grains.   I treated all this on my own.  Doctors were no help.

[knitty kitty]

@Sahamies,

Would you tell us more about your gluten intolerance and pernicious anemia?  

[Sahamies]

18 minutes ago, knitty kitty said:

@Sahamies,

Would you tell us more about your gluten intolerance and pernicious anemia?  

I got pernicious anemia because I didn’t eat enough animal protein for a few months.  I treated this by eating liver four times a week.  A year later, I got gluten intolerance.  It started with rye bread, then got worse with all bread.  I could eat pasta made of corn.  This all went well for many years. When I was pregnant, I couldn’t eat meat, so I ate herring, the only fish I like.  After the baby was born, I could eat meat again.

I hated eating liver so much, so I decided to have high doses of cobalamin B12 instead.  I still ate liver twice a week.  I slowly developed an intolerance for other grains such as rice and corn.  I didn’t notice it at the time.  I became very sick from rice and corn.  Then I couldn’t eat vegetables either.  Soon I couldn’t eat anything but meat.  I started to eat liver all the time.  It got better.  I still can’t eat grains.  I tried eating a taco last week and I became sick from it.

[Sahamies]

8 minutes ago, Sahamies said:

I got pernicious anemia because I didn’t eat enough animal protein for a few months.  I treated this by eating liver four times a week.  A year later, I got gluten intolerance.  It started with rye bread, then got worse with all bread.  I could eat pasta made of corn.  This all went well for many years. When I was pregnant, I couldn’t eat meat, so I ate herring, the only fish I like.  After the baby was born, I could eat meat again.

I hated eating liver so much, so I decided to have high doses of cobalamin B12 instead.  I still ate liver twice a week.  I slowly developed an intolerance for other grains such as rice and corn.  I didn’t notice it at the time.  I became very sick from rice and corn.  Then I couldn’t eat vegetables either.  Soon I couldn’t eat anything but meat.  I started to eat liver all the time.  It got better.  I still can’t eat grains.  I tried eating a taco last week and I became sick from it.

Also Dr Osborne says you are gluten intolerant if you can’t eat gluten.  If you eat gluten, then get sick from it, then you have celiac disease.

[trents]

Pernicious anemia is not caused by not eating enough animal protein. Pernicious anemia is caused by the death of parietal cells in the stomach that secrete an enzyme known as intrinsic factor. Intrinsic factor is necessary for the absorption of B12 which in turn is necessary for the assimilation of iron in the diet. I'm guessing the death of the parietal cells is an autoimmune problem.

There are two kinds of gluten intolerance. One is called celiac disease in which gluten triggers an autoimmune inflammatory response in the small bowel that damages the villi that line the small bowel. The other is called non celiac gluten sensitivity (NCGS) that produces many of the same symptoms but does not damage the villi. Having either one can make you feel ill, despite what Dr. Osborne says. If in fact you are accurately representing what he actually says.

Edited January 2, 2022 by trents

[Sahamies]

No not eating animal protein can cause pernicious anemia.  Pernicious anemia can cause blindness, nerve damage, tingling in hands and feet.  Vegans and vegetarians are very much in danger of getting it because taking pills don’t work that well.

It doesn’t always cause gluten intolerance.  I think I had a bit of a predisposition to having it.  I could never eat very much flour like in cake.   My grandfather was a master baker.  My mother really liked to bake and she was good at it.  Everyone loved her baking. Too bad I would sometimes get sick from pancakes or noodles in soup.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Sahamies

[trents]

Please provide a research link that not eating enough animal protein can cause pernicious anemia. You make a lot of assertions that you provide no evidence for except referencing this Dr. Osborne.

Not eating enough red meat can contribute to normal anemia because it may result in insufficient dietary intake of iron. But pernicious anemia is a different animal. Pernicious anemia does not respond to increased iron in the diet or through supplementation. It can only be addressed through B12 injections.