200 Bread Okey, Then What?

[kannne]

When will I learn?

I have posted several picture of my bread the last week and I have been so happy. I want to start my own bakery one day. Now I make bread home and give to my friends and they are so happy.

I have made maybe 200 bread the last year or maybe more. I don't know. I have found a recipe that has always worked. And the last month I have told people my recipe only work.

Well... Today and yesterday it did NOT work and I am SO angry. Because I can't understand WHY! :angry: :angry: :angry:

4 weeks ago I ordered 120 lbs flour.

I have made 70 bread so far with no problems. It is a good dough, they rise very good and they have a good texture.

But today I opened a new box of flour (they came 6 bags of flour in 1 box). And I have tried to make 12 bread out of that box and I have failed every time. The dough feels different, the texture of the dough is different. They don't rise as good as the other 70 bread has done.

Just for testing I took a bag of flour from an other box that I have used earlier and made bread with. This had normal texture, normal smell and it felt normal. And the bread did rise and it was very good.

I have been using the exact same recipe. The water has the same temperature (I use a candy thermometer). The bread are in the same oven, at the same temperature. The bread rises in the same temperature. The only different is that I have opened a new box of flour.

Here is a picture of the "normal" bread (the bread to the right side is a new recipe I am working with)

Here is a picture of the slice I made today

I am so angry and frustrated because I can't understand why. I have sent an email to the company where I order the flour and asked then if they have made any changes.

[luvs2eat]

Is that gluten free bread? It sure looks pretty.

Edited to add... I don't know what to say about the flour. I made gorgeous round crusty country loaves of bread for 25 years in a "cloche," a sandstone sort of thing that I got from Williams Sonoma many years ago. I broke that one and got another (at about twice the price I'd spent 25 years earlier) and haven't been successful ONE TIME with it. Same recipe, same everything... but rather than a big, high round loaf, I always get a short, squat round loaf. I can't eat it anyhow... I made it for my husband and friends... I've given up!

[kannne]

Is that gluten free bread? It sure looks pretty.

Edited to add... I don't know what to say about the flour. I made gorgeous round crusty country loaves of bread for 25 years in a "cloche," a sandstone sort of thing that I got from Williams Sonoma many years ago. I broke that one and got another (at about twice the price I'd spent 25 years earlier) and haven't been successful ONE TIME with it. Same recipe, same everything... but rather than a big, high round loaf, I always get a short, squat round loaf. I can't eat it anyhow... I made it for my husband and friends... I've given up!

Its glutenfree.

[RiceGuy]

I've noticed differences in the characteristics of certain flours from time to time. I think it has to do with growing conditions, seed source, etc. If the weather or soil is different, or the seed the crop was started from is different, then the resulting flour will be different as well. Flours from two crops from different regions on the planet will very likely not be the same.

What kind of flour is it, and do the boxes list the same nutrient content? Does one cup of flour from the new box weigh the same as one from the older box?

[luvs2eat]

Its glutenfree.

I guess if you're planning to open your own bakery... you don't want to share the recipe, huh?

[kannne]

I opened a new box of flour and made more bread today:

So there is something wrong with the flour

[RiceGuy]

Is the bread slightly gummy inside? If so, and if you're using xanthan, try reducing it a bit. Like 1/2 or 2/3 of the amount you're currently using.

I have seen the properties of flour change from one season to the next. Sometimes it is changes in weather patterns, or soil conditions, or the seed source.

Is this the lupin flour that has changed?

[kannne]

Is the bread slightly gummy inside? If so, and if you're using xanthan, try reducing it a bit. Like 1/2 or 2/3 of the amount you're currently using.

I have seen the properties of flour change from one season to the next. Sometimes it is changes in weather patterns, or soil conditions, or the seed source.

Is this the lupin flour that has changed?

I don't know which of the flours that has changed..

I did not use xanthan gum in this bread, I use husk.

[jerseyangel]

Could the flour have been exposed to moisture at some point? I wonder if you try weighing it instead of measuring it?

Your bread does look good!

[RiceGuy]

I don't know which of the flours that has changed.

Are the flours already blended in the boxes you buy?

[kannne]

I did a test today...

Its the flour, no doubt about that!

I took 2 cups and added all the ingredients I use in the bread. I was very precise so the dough should be identical. (And they weight the same when before I left them to rise).

I used the same yeast and divided it into to pieces of 24g each.

I went back to my first recipe and added 1 tsp baking powder, thats why it is higher then when I wrote this topic.

Then I mixed all together and let them rise.

Well...

Here is the result:

So there is definitely something wrong with the flour! They are warm now so I cant cut them but I will take more picture later when I they are cold.

[RiceGuy]

If the consistency of the dough appears identical, then what about the pH? Could something be interfering with the yeast?

[kannne]

If the consistency of the dough appears identical, then what about the pH? Could something be interfering with the yeast?

I don't know about the PH.

I used the same yeast today, just divided it into 24g each (it is 48g).

[RiceGuy]

Does the dough rise but fall, or not rise as high either before or during baking?

What I might try is to make two loaves from the new flour, but add 1/2 tsp baking soda to one loaf, and one tsp vinegar to the other loaf. Then observe if one rises better than it would without the addition. If the one with baking soda does better, then the dough is too acidic. If the one with vinegar does better, then the dough is too alkaline. If neither does better, then the pH is not the problem.

[kannne]

Does the dough rise but fall, or not rise as high either before or during baking?

What I might try is to make two loaves from the new flour, but add 1/2 tsp baking soda to one loaf, and one tsp vinegar to the other loaf. Then observe if one rises better than it would without the addition. If the one with baking soda does better, then the dough is too acidic. If the one with vinegar does better, then the dough is too alkaline. If neither does better, then the pH is not the problem.

The dough from the bad flour rise. Not as much as the good flour but then fell together when I bake it.

Isn't it a better idea to try it with the bad flour then the good flour?

[RiceGuy]

The dough from the bad flour rise. Not as much as the good flour but then fell together when I bake it.

In my experience, when the dough falls during baking, using less water can help. I've also found that high protein flours can cause the dough to fall during baking. So I wonder if maybe the lupin flour has a different protein profile, which would not be unusual given changes in growing conditions from season to season. Perhaps it would work better to blend the mix with some other flour.

Isn't it a better idea to try it with the bad flour then the good flour?

Yes, that is what I mean. The bad flour is the newer one, right?

[kannne]

In my experience, when the dough falls during baking, using less water can help. I've also found that high protein flours can cause the dough to fall during baking. So I wonder if maybe the lupin flour has a different protein profile, which would not be unusual given changes in growing conditions from season to season. Perhaps it would work better to blend the mix with some other flour.

Yes, that is what I mean. The bad flour is the newer one, right?

I can try adding less water next time and then add baking soda and see what happens.

The old flour is the bad one, the new flour is the good one. The "bad" flour has "best before december 2010) and the good has march 2011.

[RiceGuy]

The old flour is the bad one, the new flour is the good one. The "bad" flour has "best before december 2010) and the good has march 2011.

I don't understand. I thought the bread was turning out good until you bought more flour. Then with that recently purchased flour, the bread doesn't turn out good.

When I say "new" flour, I mean the one you most recently purchased, whereas the "old" flour is the one you had been using, and made 200 good loaves. So in that case it is the older flour which is the better one, because the bread turns out better. Is that correct?

[kannne]

I bought 120 lbs of flour.

Some of the boxes has best before march 2011, some of then december 2010.

I didn't think of it and just started to use the boxes that was on the top. And all of them was march 2011. Then I opened a box with december 2010 and it went wrong.

So I bought the good and the bad flour at the same time.

[RiceGuy]

I bought 120 lbs of flour.

Some of the boxes has best before march 2011, some of then december 2010.

I didn't think of it and just started to use the boxes that was on the top. And all of them was march 2011. Then I opened a box with december 2010 and it went wrong.

So I bought the good and the bad flour at the same time.

Ah! OK, now I understand.

It seems that the flour which is nearer to the expiration date doesn't work as well. So I wonder if perhaps the flour has begun to spoil. Does the Dec 2010 flour smell different than the March 2011 flour? Legume flours do tend to turn rancid faster than other types, due to the higher protein content. Lupin is a legume, so I suspect that may have begun to spoil. I'd let my nose be my guide.

[kannne]

I will need to check when I come home. Now I am on holiday untill juli 11.

[kannne]

here is an update..

I don't have any words

I have made about 70 bread after this started.. I have bought new flour with another experience date. It fails.. Its even worse then the "bad" picture above..

Yesterday I made cinnamon rolls. I have use that recipe so many times.. The dough was okey, it did rise very well. But when I put them into the oven they did not continue to rise (as they normally do..) they stayed the same hight before they fell together. They where 6 cm after rising, after baking they where 3 cm...

The bread falls in the middle and sometimes they are raw even after 1 hour at 400F.

The company that makes the flour mix says nothing is wrong with the flour that they haven't changed anything.

But I did make one interesting experience when I made cinnamon rolls. After adding the normal amount water and flour the dough was very very very sticky.. Normally I just use a small amount of oil on the table when I roll out the dough. Yesterday I needed to use lots of flour.

So it seems like the dough absorb less water then before.

Today I made 6 new breads. They are better. They did not fall in the middle but they are not as high as I like them. And they are still a bit raw...

I also used less fat in the bread since the recipe on the internet use very little fat. Just to see if it makes a difference.

Any idea on whats wrong?

Is it normal that flour just suddenly starts to absorb less water?

[MelindaLee]

It looks darker, too...wonder if it got mislabled at the factory...