gfp

Totally!!! When I have been gluten-free for a longer period w/o accidents and I actually feel like a normal human being I always start thinking "hey this is all in your head" - weird!! I thought it gets better over time, but since you have been off it for 3 years I guess it won't

I think this goes through phases.

We start off and often have doubts and sometiomes a rocky start ... then we hit a honeymoon period, we suddenly discover howe ill we were and discover illnesses dissapearing we didn't think we had, they had crept up so slowly and we thought everyone was like that...

After a while we clean ourselves out and we have no or few residual problems ... we start getting slight doubts and we have actually forgotten what real pizza or pasta or real artisanale bread tastes like ....

We slip.. we are ill and we reaffirm our faith so to speak.

Its already been said very well by the previous 2 posters, chill out, its gets much easier.

What you have is an affirmation ... your doubts

Miso is available in a variety of non gluten types as well, including cycad miso or meri, used extensively by Japanese bhuddist monks. but also sobamugi fropm buckwheat (not a gluten) taima, hempseed (should be avialable on the Island ) and most commonly genmai from brown rice.

We have all done this ... early on like you and later on eating something we doubt etc.

Roger and Lyndsay do a great job.... and all for free.

We have mutual links on our websites and I have a sample that takes you to their French one.

my one cat was actually dx'ed with bulimia! Once we switched his food, the binging and purging stopped! The brand we use is One Earth Naturals... I switched his food because he was losing his fur in patches, he was also losing weight and was very lethargic and throwing up A LOT... the vet actually suggested gluten intolerance!

I couldn't remember the name of the food earlier, but we had to get more yesterday, so there ya go. within a week of switching his food, the vomiting stopped and he started gaining weight again and got his energy back.

Many commercial cat foods are laced with addictive items for cats... which explains the eating to vomiting.

If they weren't most cats would not eat when expected or catch their own food etc. and not choose the right bowl in 9/10 cat's preferred it tests

I find withdrawal as bad as the glutening in many ways.

You could try keeping it ticking over with a nibble in the morning etc.

I'm all for hugs

However also respect his space, some of us get a bit funny about being touched or too much attention when glutened.

My fav comfort food is homemade chicken soup with cabbage, leek and celery gradually getting thicker over 3 days.

Just in general I would take a hard stance anyway that health is NOT debatable.

Secondly you can't debate it unless they have the background knowledge and it sounds like they are unlikely to read up ....

Thirdly congrats with Dr.

Mongoose - After reading your post, I decided to post in the Support Group forum to see if there are any other Celiacs in our area who want to do dinner.

Kim - I think my boyfriend's fear of going out is part feeling it is a "weakness" and part fear over being glutened. He did come to visit me at my work this past week though (I waitress in an Italian restaurant). I told my boss about him and had him clean the grill and make a plain chicken breast for him and I made him a salad with fresh, safe ingredients from the back refrigerator and then hid it so there would be no danger of CC. We are also going to the beach this Sunday and he said he is willing to try PF Changs, so I'm crossing my fingers that everything goes okay. Wish me luck!

Just a compromise suggestion....

How about going out for romantic picnic's.

You prepare the food, its risk free, its summer

I can see where both of you are coming from and honestly it can be very scary to eat out somewhere you have little confidence in. Also make 101% sure ... if he gets ill after PF changs then you are really going to find it hard to get him out a second time.

Just so you realise, he will be sitting there the whole meal worrying ... don't expect his full attention.

Another thing to combat the "weakness feeling" is that you go the day before and talk to the manager and say how much he is worried and how you would love to come regularly but .....

Thanks! Maybe I'll try that! Has it made a difference with your animals? The problem we have with my cat is that he throws up a lot. We joke around and call him a "bulimic kitty" because he gorges himself on his food and then vomits, but it may be that the food is just not agreeing with his little kitty stomach.

Other than making sure you change slowly I think any cat is better off on an all meat diet, its just not equiped to digest anything else. Human, dogs and pigs are all omniverous and have problems with gluten, pigs also have a disease very similar to celiac disease with soy protein, of course there is far more money avaialble to research this than celiac disease! If omnivores have problems then I'm sure its far more of a problem in something with a digestive system as specialised as a cat.

A bit of throwing up is OK, it could be he's not getting any fibre outside his food (does he have access to grass?)

On the opposite scale if he's hunting for himself then it could be he swallowed a whole head or something, our cat did this a couple of times and bird heads with sharp beaks seem to be particualrly painfull when the stomach fills up so they try and vomit it out. We went through a lot of panic until the vet stuck her finger in his stomach and said he'd be fine and would digest the bones over time. (also blood in stool so we were really panicking)

hi,

hope this isn't too obvious, i have only been gluten free since the end of march. my salsa has "natural flavorings". is gluten ever/often a natural flavoring? the salsa kind is pace chunky salsa. i would love to eat some right now but i'm increasingly wary of accidently glutening myself since i see how much small things like cross contamination have affected me lately.

thanks,

Sara

Regardless of what others have said for this particular manufacturer I think you are very wise to question everything.

Im always naturally suspicious of "natural flavoring" but obviously so many veterans here giving it the OK on Pace it must be. so no panic there.

In general though the problem I have is exactly what you say... you know you got contaminated and its damned hard to pin down if you have eaten a few things in the last few days that are suspicious.

Anyway, Salsa is really easy to make ... and I prefer fresh with no preservatives so :

My quick "Mexican style" salsa

Tin of tomatoes (half sized is OK)

1/2 cup chopped onion;

1/2 cup fresh cilantro, chopped;

4 to 6 chiles verdes (chile serrano), finely chopped;

2 teaspoons salt;

2 teaspoons lemon juice.

Variations are great... I like adding roasted red peppers, skin removed and a mix of 50/50 ground cilantro and cumin seeds and a pinch celery salt.

101 cheat are available... I usually have chillis soaked in oil and add a bit or you can add some pre-made chilli sauce etc. If you have fresh chilli's then habereno are my favorite ... scotch bonnet if you want to blow your head off etc. The more chilli the longer it keeps - either way leave it i the fridge for a while first... fresh tomatoes are of course better but you need to leave it longer and they should strictly speaking be jitomate tomatoes but I doubt most commercial salsa's bother.

Instructions: chop by hand is best ... stick in food processor is quickest 90% of the time I use a food processer or pre-chopped tomatoes.

My doctor gave me a lab slip for "celiac disease diagnostic" blood tests. There is nothing more specific on it than that, so I don't know what type of test this is but considering my insurance I'm sure it's the most basic, cheapest, standard initial test for celiac disease.

Problem is, I've been on a gluten-free diet for 2 months. He never bothered mentioning to me (probably because he doesn't realize exactly HOW gluten-free I am) that I need to be fully glutened up before getting my blood tested. When I found this out yesterday, I promptly went to Starbucks and bought a croissant (which wasn't that good, dammit!)

I don't mind doing a few days or weeks of gluten before the test - I get sick from it but not as bad as a lot of people whose posts I read on this board. But I've heard conflicting things.

Some websites say 2 weeks of 2-3 servings of gluten a day should be enough to make the antibodies act up (if in fact I have celiac disease). Other people have told me I have to be eating gluten for 3 months before I take the test.

What do you think?

(PS I know that the blood test is not very reliable - I fully plan, when I have the $$, to send away for the EnteroLab stool test. But my doc will probably not take it seriously so I want to maximize my chances of this blood test being accurate.)

First off many of us don't recognise a huge difference with the amount of gluten we eat. My reaction is no different from a crumb to a pizza. If you are going to do the test then I would want to make sure it is accurate.

As for the tests, if you get a full panel it is VERY accurate if positive.

The only doubt is something like 2% of positives don't have positive biopsies but IMHO and most people a clean biopsy and +ve blood tests these people go on to have damage if they don't go gluten-free.

On the other hand a false negative can happen because of the timing if you have been gluten-free. You also need to check TgA which will show if you are naturally deficient in IgA which is possible and not uncommon, this just means you have a lower IgA normally so the normal range is not applicible.

On the other hand biopsies can give false negatives much more easily for reasons from bad sampling to inexperienced people interpreting the slides.

If I was in your position I would see the doctor again and mention you have been gluten-free and hence want to make sure the tests are definitive. You mightest well make sure on quantity ... what is debatable is the length of time.

The last thing you want is a false negative or you have to go through it all again.

If you do go for a biopsy then you should have it scheduled straight after the blood test results otherwise you need to go through the whole eating gluten AGAIN.

The enterolab testing is more sensitive which means less chance of a false negative and also picks things up earlier but I don't see the advantage of this AFTER a positive diagnosis but I am not as knowledgeable about the enterolab tests so perhaps wait for someone elses reply.

Cat's can be really fussy so I see your problem for 2 weeks.

If its wet food its less of a problem IMHO than the dry food but its still a risk.

You could try making something or switch to a gluten-free one.. a lot depends on how varied the cats diet is already.

If its wet food then if it eats a few brands you might find one gluten-free, if not you can make your own.

If you try then things like chicken with gravy and gelatine (can be made from the chicken bones) are a best bet but make sure to add some rice or something because if the cat is used to stuff with padded out fillers like gluten stuff it's digestive system (such as it is in a cat*) is likley to get confused and cause D.

You can with practice stick your finger up a cat's bum straight into its stomach..I've watched a vet do it! its intestine is just a straight tube and not in any way designed for digesting anything but meat so almost anything that's not meat is fibre for a cat.

That is the best idea ever!!! I never want another person to go through what I did. I'll shell out her name like you wouldn't believe.

Irony at it's best, though...I googled the woman's name (this was after my visit) and there was actually a woman that wrote this huge article on celiac disease. Turns out, it was a completely different woman in a completely different part of the country, but same name, first and last, same spelling and all. Weird.

Better to ask Scott first.... might be legal reasons why not. They don't need to be good legal reasons to cause a lot of hassle and shut down the board just potentially expensive ones.

However you can get webspace hosted elsewhere than the US really cheaply and easily. ($5/mon) or if anyone wanted you could use my server which is in France.

I was rewarded for that by being the only person she never told she was dx'd with diabetes.

I think that just confirms your suspicions.

The reason is probably because you were the one went to the Dr's with her and she is embarassed but the way she is dealing with it is obviously deeply inapproapriate.

You presently represent sucess in everything she has failed at.

It is very sad that she can't accept this and I can understand why you can't accept watching her kill herself slowly.

I have a friend doing this though his poision of choice is alcohol and there comes a time when you can't bear to stand by and condone it and you daren't mention it.

I have to admit I had a second friend who I cut off for similar reasons, she was grossly obese (problems walking 50' but a whole hoast of other serious medical problems caused or exagerated by her weight and eating) and I couldn't condone it or say anything ... then 3-4 years later she is awarded a slimmer of the year award and is running marathons and dropped to less than half her former weight.

However in her case she was never nasty to me, I just couldn't cope watching her kill herself and moving away meant we dropped out of touch. She did come to visit and the entire visit was ruined by her being unable to actually go out.

You have to think of yourself first here. She sounds a very destructive person to be around.

Very good advice! In fact, the bread is one of the defining ingredients of the authentic recipe. But I always have preferred it without & without as much oil as the traditional recipe... one of the things I like about it is that it can be so light & refreshing when it's "too hot to eat". I love the tomato & cucumber version best, but cantaloupe is also sensational!

Leah

This is quite funny... one of the sites on my Paris Gluten free site has a great gazpacho so I asked of he could make one specially for me ... he said it was OK and I was "but...." then worked out I was actually arguing with him about doing it right .... and adding bread crumbs...???? What was i thinking? We actually argue and tease all the time so its not adnormal ... but to argue with the owner over leaving out gluten?

I would just like to point out I am most definately NOT Marjorie Gyurus even if she lists the exact same things and reasons and arguaments, its simply common sense.

On the other hand the blog owner is just a self appointed ignorant busybody.

She should probably (or maybe does) work for CUK.

One of the questions I have been asked is about which alcoholic drinks are gluten free. Wine, spirits, sherry and port are all suitable for Celiacs. Beer is quite a different matter.

Really... forget for the moment the possibility (yet to be disproven) possbility of gluten or gliadins ending up in the distillate I can name several sherries and ports which use caramel color for port and the manufactuerers do not even say are gluten-free. Same goes for several spirits such as Cognacs...

Some people just go through life thinking if they are going to be ill then they should encourage others to join them.

If the autheress wants to be sick that is her perogative, she can eat a pizza everyday for lunch for all I care and hopefully sooner or later she will be too ill to spout her BS on the web.

However making blanket statements based on nothing but hot air is irresponsible and selfish.

Everyone has the right to determine their own risks... if people wanna smoke I say let them... if people wanna do deep sea diving that is there decision.

When I ski I take a lot of risks in places which are not covered by rescue, I don't expect rescue... or other people to come to my aid except those I ski with. However it would be irresponsible to say hey I can ski any off piste and I spot a potential avalanche and outrun most so its safe for everyone.

gfp - I agree with you but in fairness I was talking about my own mother being an emotional eater, not accusing friend of doing the same and I honestly don't know if she even knows she eats for all the wrong reasons or not. So she may take offense or not. All I know is that I've bit my lip and ignored hurtful things for too long and I guess I'm just over it now. I'm not as sad as I thought I would be since I don't have to continue ignoring her behaviour anymore. I actually feel relief but the sadness will come later. Thank you for reading!

I know that but if she wants to take it the wrong way she will. I'm not saying you were wrong, I'm just trying to put it in a different perspective that you can't see from because you are in the middle.

Other than that I think tarnalberry is also correct in that people are trying, they just don't know what to do.

We've been talking about this on another thread, I think it's called Flour & Soy... short answer, it's pretty risky.

The problem is mainly the possibility of ingesting airborne flour. I postulated that possibly a dust mask of the sort you can find in hardware stores might be protective, but we don't really know.

Sorry for the bad news... this is a major issue for some culinary professionals on the board. Hope you can work out a safe way to take the class.

Leah

Gotta agree.. sorry.

Gloves might prevent under the nails but the airborne particles are pretty much unavoidable short of wearing a mask before you enter the room ... one person doing it is bad enough but you will be in a class of people 'throwing' flour about and however careful you are they won't be.

I could literally fill pages with my observations and conclusions on this.

Personally I think long term low concentration glutening is FAR worse than eating a pizza.

One aspect is i beleive in celaics we tend to store up gluten like many other toxins and 'hide' it .. sometimes it comes out as spots and other times its hidden in celulite etc.

Eat a whole pizza and most of it goes straight through.... we expell it and only so much can attach to villi at any one time. However a constant drip of gluten means it can be hidden away and that the villi are being continually challenged to divide leading to increased cancer risks.

One of the worst aspects for me is fall-back foods. Of course you didn't want to blame the bread.. who would?

I think one of the worst dangers for celiac disease is when we get comfort foods that can be CC'd... sometimes its immediate others delayed and we don't want to loose that comfort food and when we tested it it was OK....

About the accidents and the extra panties...a long time ago--about 13-14 years ago this happened to me. I was on my work lunch break and had to go back commando. I told my then-husband about it and he was disgusted. I think it was one of the things that led to our divorce. Silly, I know. But just one of those things that he was completely grossed out by.

As a result I've gotten really good at holding things in. TMI, I know, but I imagine you know what I mean. I can get from most restaurants back to my home clenching and rushing into the house. It's a serious event when I have to use a public bathroom for the explosive incidents and then I am incredibly embarassed.

I never thought to mention any of this to my doctor before now. I just thought it was "normal" and all people did it!

Perhaps he had a hidden reason?

I tell a story about my ex but to be fair it has a caveat.

I contracted a very (more virulent than normal) strain of typhoid when living in Africa and my wife actually locked me in the bathroom for 3 days. I wasn't strong enough to actually walk, let alone get out but it only occured to her on the third day it wasn't a hangover.

Caveats.... OK I projectile vomited over most all the bedroom but the real reason is she had watched her mother die from stomach cancer. She just couldn't handle it.

Brocolli is very good for you and contains some of the best anti-carcinogens ... on balance the chance is you are not allergic to it and your missing out. If you are not sensitive to other brassica's (cabbages and Cauliflower) chances are your not .. and if they make you gassy, that's also normal.

If anyone read, thanks but if not - I feel better admitting finally what has happened to myself.

Well I did!

It sounds like her own issues are the cause behind this in combination with her own inability to control her diet.

friend invites me to a dinner party and said she'd like me to come even though I have my 'dining restrictions'. She did not proceed to ask what I could eat (if anything) from the menu which she already has planned.

I'm not a psychologist or anything but this sounds very like she is trying to make excuses for her own inability to keep to a diet by proving its all in your head. She is trying to project her own guilt to herself onto you.

I replied to her note saying she was sweet but in case she forgot I had grieved a lot and I knew I was lucky because I'm not an emotional eater

My honest opinion? Not the most diplomatic thing to say.

I'm not saying she doesn't deserve it ! Just if she is sensitive (and she certainly sounds like it) then this would be a bit of a dig.

IMHO.. your friend is in a mess, a far bigger one than you. She needs some support but you might not be in a position to give it.

Gluten is most often a delayed reaction. Check not just what you ate right before you felt ill check the foods from 1 to 3 days before also. The delay from an intolerance reaction can make pinpointing what 'got' you a bit tough at times. I hope you feel better soon.

This is #1

Soy isn't something I think is great in general but I don't avoid it like gluten.

Most of the negative things about soy do not apply to fermented products such as tamari.

All tamari should be 100% fermented soy.

I think soy is one of those foods that if you have autoimmune disorders and you are not allergic/sensitive should be taken in moderation. Most far eastern cultures eat far less soy than we Westeners imagine.

There are NOT many types of cans or packaged tuna that does NOT contain SOY.

I believe you but Europe is way different. I am reasonably sure in this because I just got back from a tuna expedition !! What I wanted was either tuna in water or olive oil so I went through the lot, I also wanted albacore steaks not bits n pieces.

Not a single can had soy except perhaps the Tuna in mayo which I didn't bother to read and the tuna salad cans, again didn't even pick up.

In the end I found tuna in olive oil and also some in sunflower but non in water without added salt.

I don’t think I generally feel bad in the first place, so it’s hard to see how I can be different –but then I wonder sometimes if everyone feels like I do, with bloating etc and it’s normaly, or its just me and that cos it’s all the time I think it’s normal

That is how it usually manifests.

Your comment is almost classic, only a minority go from 100% healthy to full blown overnight and even in these cases we usually look back and see with 20/20 hindsight.

Anyway, so there are a few questions! First off, is there anything important I should ask the people where I did the test?

Yes these seem to be IgE tests for allergy not IgA or IgG ....

(I'm presuming I don't nee to explain the difference)

Your symptoms are pretty classic coelaic, which is itself rather rare to have so many!

On one level it doesn't matter if you eliminate gluten ... but then you need to research the right things.

I know I keep hammering this but you sound just like me when I was pre-diagnosis..... I was convinced my symptoms were too mild ... no family history etc. etc.

Well the family history reversed itself... and when I look back the symptoms are not mild and NO ... most people don't have those symptoms. Because we cover up some of the most embarassing things we presume other's must be and we are normal, its not true.

The only person who may have brought this up from washing my smalls as a child was my mom... and she thought it was normal too.

After my mum was diagnosed she still resisted and said she never had symptoms etc. etc. and I brought up a few embarassing episodes. Most people I know are more forthcoming on sexual habits than bowel ones!

A while ago I "shared" a little story here about my emergency kit. It includes a 1" swiss army knife which can be used in the worst case scenario to cut away underwear .. then quite a few people piped in about their emergency kits. I have been in a pharmacy getting drugs and spotted another potential coelaic and one day in a bar some guy approached me seeing my antacids, acid inhibitors and immodium... its actually not the nicest bar (equal numbers seem to leave via windows as the doors) and I was only there because a friend was playing live but it turned out he knew a barman friend of mine and knowing I was a friend of the musician tracked me down.

He took what I said and his mother got tested back in Ireland and came out +ve... and this was just from the medication I carried after a glutening incident. Over 50% of coelaics get GERD but its absense it not diagnostic.

As an aside, an emergency room doc tried to convince me one night that I had suddenly developed an allergy to shellfish. And most interestingly, was convinced I had eaten shellfish recently - no matter how many times my husband and I swore that we hadn't had shellfish in more than 2 weeks. Who knows how some of these ideas get stuck in their head sometimes. And it seems like there is certainly a (possibly big) subset of medical professionals who get stuck on their first idea and cannot waiver no matter how much contrary evidence there may be!

Catherine

When i was 15 my mother was on disability after a hysterectomy and something happened to her cheque.

The police got involved and I was accused of faking her sig and cashing the cheque... the police officer sounded so plausible I almost beleived it... he suggested way's I might have done it and perhaps a friend egged me on etc. etc.

After about 1 hour of this, illegally without my mother present I suddenly asked for the date.

As it happened I had been out of the country with my father and being my first time I had asked for my passport stamping at every border so I informed him it was impossible, I had proof I was in Germany at the time.

(Unfortunately he beleived me and took the opportunity in the 10 mins it took me to find the passport to convince my mother he had me and unless she confessed to accidentally doing it I was going to be charged! )

Anyway.. I was all but convinced I had done it....

Nantzie:

That's very cool and also I think its good to post it because it shows it can be done.

What you have to consider is unless you increase your energy intake you will keep loosing weight .....

.. and herein lies the kicker....

Now you need to find the right balance and its an endless task. I find it really hard to keep a weight, Im either gaining or loosing and most changes take weeks to swing around the body from one to the other... its a bit like steering a long barge... you tend to over correct then over correct the over correction.

Sorry.. this sounds negative.... its not mean to be but Im rushed right now...

Its great you have done this and an inspiration for others too and im just adding a note of caution don't let it spoil your well deserved feel-good factor over this.

I'm so totlly frustrated and at my wits end. My diet choices are getting narrower and narrower. Holiday was great when away, no problems, no stomach complaints, but now they are returning as in stomach discomfort and diahrea.

Just a few questions

1 Do you use cups etc from dishawashers at work? Beginning to wonder whether the work one could have gluten floating around, or else it could be the detergeants used in it that could be annoying me. What do you think? Is this a valid comment, or am I being a bit paranoid.

Almost definately if people dunk....

2. If you lived in clean green New Zealand like me, would you drink the water in a metropolitan area? Or should I be like everyone else in the world and drink bottled water? I am a bit slow in bottled water area, only drink it when I can't find a tap. But if it is better for my health than the so called treated water, I will do it. Has treated water got additives that could be harmful. Bottled water is starting to sound great.

This depends entirely on YOUR water.

In most cases there is little difference (if any) between bottled and tap. In some cases bottled water is tap water.

In the case of flouride, its only a problem if people add extra flouride in toothpaste or other suppliments.

3. What about an aluminium tea pot at work? Would that pose a threat? It is filled with water from a zip that is constantly hot, could that be a problem? I don't personally like that, and would rather a fresh kettle of water to boil as needed.

Again ... I think this is on the excessive side but if the water is not hot enough and being stored at that temp its a possible breeding ground for bacteria, presuming the water going in is not chlorinated.

4. What about iodized salt, is this a problem for us?

Well I have a different view on this.

Most commercial mineral salt is 500 million years old. From my POV would you choose a product that was refined before man started polluting the planet or one that is extracted from concentrated polluted sea water today.

I eat only sea salt or himalayan crystal salt. Iodized salt has been processed and is not particularly good for you.

But all salt is 'processed', this is how it is made. Either it is put in lagoons and left to evaporate OR it does it naturally.

When sea water evaporates naturally it makes a whole series of salts. Commercial lagoons produce very thin deposits wheras nature can make deposits kilometers thick... over millions of years. Each of these goes through cycles as the salts crystalise out in a pretty much fixed order.

Because the Zechstein roduced such thick salt deposits the parts of these relating to common salt are very thick and pure so contain a very high NaCl concentration. Somewhere else in the deposit it the NaI, KI and CaI2 not to mention others like strontium salts and at the other end barium salts.

Iodized mineral salt is just adding a little of the iodized layers back in ... whereas iodized sea salt I don't know how they do it? I presume they just add some iodized mineral salt.

I am really scraping the bottom of the barrell to find out what is bugging me. I should be scraping a barrell of wine!

I have for the last few weeks given up all legumes, apart from frozen peas, all peanuts, most additives and preservatives and colours. Still have dairy, so maybe that is next to cross off. My diet seems to be totally natural, so it could be something to do with the water which has been treated.

I would from others experience say diary is probably the top culprit but the dishwasher comes pretty high as well.

Processed water is really only a problem on a different level. I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference just that the difference is a different order of magnitude to gluten. In many ways I am on the semi-paleo bandwagon but what strikes me is the number of 'paleo' people who don't eat raw meat, eggs or fish etc.

Probiotics are one answer but then again most of these are actually found in unprocessed food anyway.

First link I found here Open Original Shared Link

I just wanted to quote

Ruminants are strict vegetarians and have evolved a specialised intestinal compartment containing bacteria capable of breaking down otherwise indigestible plant materials such as cellulose.

Some of these are becoming very popular, one normal way humans get them is unpasturised non vegetarian cheeses transferred via the rennet of the stomach of the ruminant.

Again its the natural or processed route: you can buy the probiotics and swallow capsules to replace what was killed in the pasturisation and sterilisation process or eat the natural product. The same goes for live yogourt cultures etc.

The problem is if you eat mass raised products filled with drugs you don't... and many of the modern farming practices are making this worse and providing breeding grounds for the bad bacteria.

Obviously cattle raised with antibiotics will have less or no good bacteria left to donate.and their organs like liver and kidneys will be concentrates of the toxins they have ingested... chickens raised in batteries are in filthy conditions often the eggs are covered in their own urine and excrement.. and the traditional eggs for breakfast meant new laid eggs collected that morning from free range hens. Even things like fruit are usually covered in yeasts many of which are good ones but we disinfect them, irrradiate them and then coat them in insect protein (in the case of apples)

I think a sensible 'paleo like' diet should contain free range produce with minimal processing ...if this is your leaning.