Can TMJ cause salivary gland pain?

[cristiana]

Hello all

Sorry I've been off this forum for a bit recently - I've been under a lot of pressure with a project so have had to take some time out.

I just wondered if anyone reading this today has suffered from TMJ and salivary pain?  A bit more info

I went to see a dentist about a month ago and got a clean bill of dental/oral health, other than a filling on the right side which took a while to do.

However, he did comment, interestingly, before he did the filling, that the left jowl was quite firm, the right softer.  That didn't surprise me as I tend to clench my jaw that side, and I feel a lot of tension there.  He then asked me to open my mouth and close it again, and noticed that I open my mouth straight but on closing it my jaw doesn't seem to close straight.  I think there's some sort of problem with alignment.

Since that filling, which as I say, was on the right side of the mouth, the left hand side of my jaw has hurt quite a bit on and off.  Sometimes my left gums have burned, or the left side of my tongue. I notice that when using interdens brushes the pain starts in my jaw joint - it's a kind of aching pain, not sharp.  The other time it hurts is when I'm eating.  I'm not so sure it's opening the mouth that is doing it, it is almost when my saliva glands start to work.  

Over the years I've had occasional pain that side when I start to eat something very sweet or very sour.  It doesn't really last for long.  Now it lasts all meal time, and maybe an hour or so after, no matter what I eat.  This pain (it feels a bit like sore muscles after exercise) extends down to my shoulder, and sometimes to my left side temple.  There's no obvious swelling in my mouth or salivary glands, or redness.  

I know from reading this forum that TMJ is often brought up for discussion.  What I'd like to know is can an inflamed jaw joint actually make the salivary glands hurt?

I'm going to have to see a doctor or dentist next week but if anyone can relate, or has any advice about any home remedies, I'd be so grateful.

Thanks!

Cristiana

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by cristiana

[trents]

Makes me wonder if some or all of the new discomfort phenomenon you are experiencing is related to the new filling and the trauma of that procedure. I know that some dental procedures I have done over the years the put spreaders in my mouth that traumatized my jaw bone joints for a time.

[cristiana]

Hi Trents

That's really helpful, thank you, I think you have a very good point there.

It's a kind of burning pain, and it does remind me of the pain I've had in my sacroiliac joints and ribs since around the time of diagnosis.  Musculoskeletal in nature. 

The procedure was on a molar and way back in the mouth, so I guess my mouth had to be wedged wide open!

Cristiana

[trents]

Can you tolerate a temporary course of NSAIDs?

[cristiana]

I can't take them unfortunately because they make my stomach very sore.  That said, I don't find it quite so bad using a topical NSAID like Ibuleve so I suppose I could give that a try.   Thanks so much for this suggestion.  

[knitty kitty]

@cristiana,

I had a filling once that sat too high and misaligned my bite.  Didn't notice until after the numbing wore off.  Sore jaw developed.  Went back to the dentist and had the filling adjusted.  No more problems.

My dentist often commented over the years that I produced a lot of spit.  Only later doing research for Celiac Disease, I found that Niacin deficiency will cause excessive saliva production.  Pretty weird, but true.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/13730507-excessive-saliva-causes/

[cristiana]

Thanks, knitty kitty.   I had odd tooth pain last year and I think you said something about the benefits of Niacin then, so I've just started to supplement again.  It worked last time, I'm very grateful to you.  

Something's definitely wrong with the alignment of my bite, for years I've noticed my front teeth are slightly off centre!

I also wonder if something's up with my salivary gland like a mild infection that I picked up at the dentists.  I did come down with some sort of virus a couple of days after the appointment.  

[knitty kitty]

@cristiana,

Yes, it could be inflammation from the virus you came down with as well.  Increase your Vitamin C and add zinc.  

I have also experienced B12 deficiency after getting any type of anesthesia, local or general, whether inhaled or injected.  

There are nitrogen compounds in injected anesthesia or inhaled as nitrous oxide.  The nitrogen binds irreversibly and permanently with the Cobalt in B12 making the vitamin useless and unavailable to our bodies resulting in B12 deficiency. 

The nitrogen compounds can take as long as eighteen months to two years clear.  The B12 deficiency development happens gradually. B12 deficiency can develop or worsen weeks to months later depending on how much B12 you've got stored in your liver.  If you are already low in B12, the nitrogen compounds can push B12 levels lower into deficiency.  

Again, this is something I have personally experienced repeatedly.  I get neuropsychological symptoms of B12 deficiency before megaloblastic anemia shows up.  Blood tests don't accurately reflect B12 stores (or lack thereof).  I could tell horror stories about my experiences.  Doctors and dentists seem oblivious to this and definitely do not recognise B12 deficiency caused by anesthesia.  Please be alert for any changes in your mentality.  Take some extra B12!  

Eat more liver!

P. S.  Here's an article about this...

Neurologic degeneration associated with nitrous oxide anesthesia in patients with vitamin B12 deficiency

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8250714/

And from a medical professional....

The Link between Nitrous Oxide Uptake and Vitamin B12 Deficiency

https://www.todaysrdh.com/the-link-between-nitrous-oxide-uptake-and-vitamin-b12-deficiency/

And one more for good measure...

Negative symptoms presenting as neuropsychiatric manifestation of vitamin B12 deficiency

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267352/

Edited February 27, 2022 by knitty kitty
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[Wheatwacked]

Despite several years of orthodonture as a kid my bite was still off.  I had TMJ that started as an adult. I thought it was due to anxiety clenching. When I was 45 a childhood filling in the middle molar left side came loose (can we say don't chew gum?) and through procrastination the tooth broke apart and had to be extracted. It left a space that against dentist advise I did not get replaced. An M&M Peanut fit perfectly. Over time my teeth shifted so now my bite is perfect and the TMJ is just a memory. I just have to chew nuts on the other side.

For low grade pain I prefer Alka Seltzer. The bicarbonate protects my stomach, and the aspirin inhibits prostaglandin. Alternately you might try Willow Bark Tea. Aspirin is a manufactured replacement of it. Oddly aspirin makes me hungry, but Ibuprofen takes my appetite away.

As I remember the TMJ made everything in my face hurt.

Quote

1828: Joseph Buchner, professor of pharmacy at Munich University, Germany, succeeds in extracting the active ingredient from willow, producing bitter tasting yellow crystals that he names salicin.          2011: A meta-analysis of eight clinical trials finds that, after five years of follow-up, trial participants who took aspirin daily for a mean of four years have a 44% reduced risk of dying from cancer compared with participants who took a placebo (Lancet 2011;377:31).    https://pharmaceutical-journal.com/article/infographics/a-history-of-aspirin

NSAIDs [not aspirin] may cause an increased risk of sudden kidney failure and even progressive kidney damage.   https://www.kidney.org/atoz/content/painmeds_analgesics

[cristiana]

3 minutes ago, Wheatwacked said:

Despite several years of orthodonture as a kid my bite was still off.  I had TMJ that started as an adult. I thought it was due to anxiety clenching. When I was 45 a childhood filling in the middle molar left side came loose (can we say don't chew gum?) and through procrastination the tooth broke apart and had to be extracted. It left a space that against dentist advise I did not get replaced. An M&M Peanut fit perfectly. Over time my teeth shifted so now my bite is perfect and the TMJ is just a memory. I just have to chew nuts on the other side.

For low grade pain I prefer Alka Seltzer. The bicarbonate protects my stomach, and the aspirin inhibits prostaglandin. Alternately you might try Willow Bark Tea. Aspirin is a manufactured replacement of it. Oddly aspirin makes me hungry, but Ibuprofen takes my appetite away.

NSAIDs [not aspirin] may cause an increased risk of sudden kidney failure and even progressive kidney damage.   https://www.kidney.org/atoz/content/painmeds_analgesics

Thanks so much for this, Wheatwacked.   This is all very interesting.   Interesting about aspirin, too, I had no idea about that statistic.

Out of interest, do you ever recall the jaw pain coming on when you ate particular foods - and by that I mean very sweet or sour, rather than hard to chew stuff which would probably hurt anyway!  I just feel it's affecting my salivary glands and I'm wondering if an inflamed joint could do this.

[trents]

I wouldn't worry about kidney failure when using NSAID's unless you are using heavy doses on a long term basis:

"Heavy or long-term use of some of these medicines, such as ibuprofen, naproxen, and higher dose aspirin, can cause chronic kidney disease known as chronic interstitial nephritis."

https://www.kidney.org/atoz/content/painmeds_analgesics

3 minutes ago, cristiana said:

Thanks so much for this, Wheatwacked.   This is all very interesting.   Interesting about aspirin, too, I had no idea about that statistic.

Out of interest, do you ever recall the jaw pain coming on when you ate particular foods - and by that I mean very sweet or sour, rather than hard to chew stuff which would probably hurt anyway!  I just feel it's affecting my salivary glands and I'm wondering if an inflamed joint could do this.

You could have an infected or traumatized salivary gland from the dental work.

[Wheatwacked]

I do get a weird feeling in that area sometimes if there is vinegar in what I eat. Also sometimes with sour candies. Can't say if it was my vitamin regimen or if I am better at avoiding vinegar but it hasn't bothered me in a while.

19 minutes ago, trents said:

kidney failure when using NSAID

I have stage 2 CKD and in January got worse to stage 3. I am hoping it was the weight loss and will prove temporary. I lost 5 pounds from September to January because I increased choline intake. I There is a u-curve with weight loss vs. eGFR (CKD marker). Normal BMI and lose weight it gets worse. Overweight and lose weight it gets better. Time will tell.

[knitty kitty]

4 hours ago, Wheatwacked said:

 

I have stage 2 CKD and in January got worse to stage 3. I am hoping it was the weight loss and will prove temporary. I lost 5 pounds from September to January because I increased choline intake. I There is a u-curve with weight loss vs. eGFR (CKD marker). Normal BMI and lose weight it gets worse. Overweight and lose weight it gets better. Time will tell.

Hopefully these will be beneficial...

Thiamine status in end-stage chronic kidney disease patients: a single-center study

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30182293/

Functional thiamine deficiency in end-stage renal disease: malnutrition despite ample nutrients

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5518601/

Thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide: a little known therapeutic agent

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15328496/

 

[Wheatwacked]

Quote

Yet in the field of nutrition, there is increasing realization that the serum/environmental presence of vitamins and micronutrients does not necessarily reflect adequacy and content at the tissue and cellular levels.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5518601/ 

Good article. I found this little gem buried in the middle.  I am a long way from ESRD.

5 hours ago, cristiana said:

I just feel it's affecting my salivary glands

I remembered that in addition to the vinegar and sour candies I would sometimes get an itchy feeling in my glands from canned tuna. I think it was only water packed tuna, not oil packed.

[Hannah E]

Hi there. This is the first thing I have found that somewhat describes what I am going through right now. It has been absolutely miserable. I was curious, did you ever figure out what was going on? Thank you. 

[cristiana]

17 hours ago, Hannah E said:

Hi there. This is the first thing I have found that somewhat describes what I am going through right now. It has been absolutely miserable. I was curious, did you ever figure out what was going on? Thank you. 

Hi Hannah

I think grinding my teeth at night, stress and and dentistry (having to keep my jaw open for a few minutes for a filling, for example) all contribute.   

However ... there may be another reason.  On a trip to the dentist I was told I do have a wisdom tooth on the lower left jaw that might be causing issues.  It hasn't come through the gum yet, but I wonder?  I also have a tiny bit of gingivitis that flares on my upper gum between my last two molars.

If my jaw joint hurts I massage it, but bizarrely I find the pain is then there in my salivary gland a few hours afterwards.

I haven't really pinned it down to any one thing but I think these could all be contributing factors.

Sorry if this isn't very helpful.... but it might give you a few things to consider? 

C.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by cristiana

[Wheatwacked]

On 10/25/2022 at 8:35 AM, cristiana said:

wisdom tooth on the lower left jaw that might be causing issues.

I lost a molar (coincidentally lower left jaw) from ignoring an old loose filling. After having it extracted my teeth shifted, and my bite became even, finishing the job the orthodontist started when I was a kid. Right about that time my TMJ got better.