Could There Ever Be A "safe" Wheat For Celiacs?

[chrissy]

i don't know if there is any hope for safe wheat---but i found this article interesting.

Wheat ancestors lack the gluten immunogenic factors of modern wheat]

Mapping of gluten T-cell epitopes in the bread wheat ancestors: implications for celiac disease [in Process Citation]

Gastroenterology 2005 Feb;128(2):393-401 (ISSN: 0016-5085)

Molberg O; Uhlen AK; Jensen T; Flaete NS; Fleckenstein B; Arentz-Hansen H; Raki M; Lundin KE; Sollid LM

Institute of Immunology, Rikshospitalet, University of Oslo, Oslo, Norway. oyvind.molberg@medisin.uio.no.

BACKGROUND AND AIMS: Celiac disease is a prevalent disorder characterized by a chronic intestinal inflammation driven by HLA-DQ2 or -DQ8-restricted T cells specific for ingested wheat gluten peptides. The dominant T-cell responses are to epitopes that cluster within a stable 33mer fragment formed by physiologic digestion of distinct alpha-gliadins. Celiac disease is treated by excluding all gluten proteins from the diet. Conceivably, a diet based on baking-quality gluten from a wheat species that expresses no or few T-cell stimulatory gluten peptides should be equally well tolerated by the celiac patients and, importantly, also be beneficial for disease prevention. METHODS: To identify baking quality, harmless wheat, we followed the evolution of the wheat back to the species that most likely have contributed the AA, BB, and DD genomes to the bread wheat. Gluten were extracted from a large collection of these ancient wheat species and screened for T-cell stimulatory gluten peptides. RESULTS: Distinct differences in the intestinal T-cell responses to the diploid species were identified. Interestingly, we found that the fragments identical or equivalent to the immunodominant 33mer fragment are encoded by alpha-gliadin genes on the wheat chromosome 6D and thus absent from gluten of diploid einkorn (AA) and even certain cultivars of the tetraploid (AABB) pasta wheat. CONCLUSIONS: These findings have implications for celiac disease because they raise the prospect of identifying or producing by breeding wheat species with low or absent levels of harmful gluten proteins.

(Medscape abstract)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[RiceGuy]

Some time ago, I had run into some information which suggested this might be the case. That the natural species of wheat, before modern hybridization, might not contain the protein fraction which sets off the immune response. The article stated however, that efforts to grow those varieties fail because they soon take on characteristics of the hybrids. Apparently this is due to pollen being carried in from neighboring fields. From what I've read, there are no commercially grown wheat varieties which aren't hybrids.

Here's a related article:

Open Original Shared Link

According to the British publication, The Independent, an official EU study concludes genes will inevitably escape from genetically modified crops, contaminating organic farms, creating superweeds resistant to herbicides, and driving natural wild relatives of the crops to extinction through interbreeding. The report warns that "over time even small amounts of gene flow can have important effects on evolutionary change".

It has been my belief for some time now, that if man had not messed around with the genetic makeup of wheat, it wouldn't be nearly as allergenic as it is today. The same likely goes for everything else IMHO.

[Nancym]

t has been my belief for some time now, that if man had not messed around with the genetic makeup of wheat, it wouldn't be nearly as allergenic as it is today. The same likely goes for everything else IMHO.

It'll take a lot more tinkering with the genetics to make it un-antigenic again.

If early humans didn't find the more modern varients its probably quite likely we'd all still be hunter/gatherers. Those early grains didn't have much going for them.

[RiceGuy]

If early humans didn't find the more modern varients its probably quite likely we'd all still be hunter/gatherers. Those early grains didn't have much going for them.

That doesn't appear to make sense, since wheat was essentially unchanged from the natural occurring varieties until about 2-3 hundred years ago. That's when they started figuring out how to cross species to get hybrids. They didn't occur naturally.

I'm not sure how you equate the hunter/gatherer stuff to how much gluten wheat has, or if it's even relevant to the topic. I mean, there are far more grains without gluten than there are with it, and they have been staples throughout history, and still are today.

[gfp]

That doesn't appear to make sense, since wheat was essentially unchanged from the natural occurring varieties until about 2-3 hundred years ago. That's when they started figuring out how to cross species to get hybrids. They didn't occur naturally.

I'm not sure how you equate the hunter/gatherer stuff to how much gluten wheat has, or if it's even relevant to the topic. I mean, there are far more grains without gluten than there are with it, and they have been staples throughout history, and still are today.

Not really.. man started tampering with wheat 12,000 yrs ago when he started selecting the biggest/fattest etc.

By Roman times many different wheats were common.... and classified...

The whole debate is IMHO pointless anyway because it is the gluten that gives wheat its properties... without the gluten what would be the point for baking etc. ??? it would lack those properties which make it wheat???

[RiceGuy]

Not really.. man started tampering with wheat 12,000 yrs ago when he started selecting the biggest/fattest etc.

By Roman times many different wheats were common.... and classified...

The whole debate is IMHO pointless anyway because it is the gluten that gives wheat its properties... without the gluten what would be the point for baking etc. ??? it would lack those properties which make it wheat???

From what I've read, there where wheat varieties with 2 and 4 sets of chromosomes during the Roman era, but how many varieties/species that comprises I don't know. Apparently, today's varieties have upwards of 12 sets or more.

As for baking without the high amount of gluten, seems to me they where doing it, weren't they? And sorghum has been a staple in Africa since I don't know when, just to name one. Quinoa, teff, and others have been in use throughout history too. Besides, aren't we Celiacs baking without gluten? I know I do. Got one in the oven right now too

Anyway, I don't think the suggestion of a "safe" wheat is synonymous with a one lacking all gluten. Just that the particular protein sequence to which the immune system reacts wouldn't be there. Wheat had gluten all along from what I understand, just not so much of it, and of course the sequences were different.

[gfp]

As for baking without the high amount of gluten, seems to me they where doing it, weren't they? And sorghum has been a staple in Africa since I don't know when, just to name one. Quinoa, teff, and others have been in use throughout history too. Besides, aren't we Celiacs baking without gluten? I know I do. Got one in the oven right now too

Yeah but what I mean is the traditional non-gluten products are not trying to emulate the others...

For example for me a wheat "burrito" is just nasty... I can't understand why anyone would want to eat anything other than a corn one...

The point I'm trying to make is we have developed products that are based on the properties of wheat... so even of we could frankenstein the "new low-no-gluten" wheat... the actual properties depend on the gluten...

Usually when we try and make a product that tries to emulate this it is "far worse" in terms of the expectations...because we have adapted our expectations... to fit that of the commonly avaialable flour...

I prefer a poppadom made of lentil and chick pea flour... I prefer my taco's 100% corn.... (perhaps I decided to tell myself this ) however when you start making cheap poppadoms and cheap tortilla using wheat people get used to it... so that becomes what they expect. The "real thing" actually becomes the nasty product... I've seen people here asking how to make soft tortillas like they are used to... etc. even how to make a Big Mac at home.... but by no stretch of the imagination can I see why anyone would like a Big Mac? I can however understand WHY they might want one... why they might miss them and why they miss the convenience.... but that is all to do with feeling comfortable and comfort foods etc.

Wheat is the basis of many comfort foods... I fully understand why people miss them... (I think) but I also think we are sorta deceiving ourselves that we "like" certain things... ???

[ArtGirl]

It has been my belief for some time now, that if man had not messed around with the genetic makeup of wheat, it wouldn't be nearly as allergenic as it is today. The same likely goes for everything else IMHO.

I find this research information about the early wheat grains to be interesting. It certainly explains why early agricultural civilizations did not have the autoimmune problem we now have with gluten. I had wondered about this before, and why it is only in recent history that there has been so much gluten intolerance. Obviously, we have a higher exposure now than people did "back then".

[RiceGuy]

Yeah but what I mean is the traditional non-gluten products are not trying to emulate the others...

For example for me a wheat "burrito" is just nasty... I can't understand why anyone would want to eat anything other than a corn one...

The point I'm trying to make is we have developed products that are based on the properties of wheat... so even of we could frankenstein the "new low-no-gluten" wheat... the actual properties depend on the gluten...

Usually when we try and make a product that tries to emulate this it is "far worse" in terms of the expectations...because we have adapted our expectations... to fit that of the commonly avaialable flour...

I prefer a poppadom made of lentil and chick pea flour... I prefer my taco's 100% corn.... (perhaps I decided to tell myself this ) however when you start making cheap poppadoms and cheap tortilla using wheat people get used to it... so that becomes what they expect. The "real thing" actually becomes the nasty product... I've seen people here asking how to make soft tortillas like they are used to... etc. even how to make a Big Mac at home.... but by no stretch of the imagination can I see why anyone would like a Big Mac? I can however understand WHY they might want one... why they might miss them and why they miss the convenience.... but that is all to do with feeling comfortable and comfort foods etc.

Wheat is the basis of many comfort foods... I fully understand why people miss them... (I think) but I also think we are sorta deceiving ourselves that we "like" certain things... ???

Well, again I'd point out that the wheat need not have less gluten, only one which doesn't contain the offending sequence.

Not to go off-topic, but I also cannot see how anyone would like wheat burritos and such. Tortillas , tacos, etc should be made with corn IMHO. Interesting you mention lentil flour, as I just purchased some. Thing is, the odor (and I do mean ODOR) is quite similar to that of a barn full of cows. No joke, it stinks. The company insists there's nothing wrong with it. Now, I may have a sensitive sniffer, and I may not have ever used lentil flour before, but there's NO WAY anyone in there right mind would think this is normal. Your opinion please?

[gfp]

Well, again I'd point out that the wheat need not have less gluten, only one which doesn't contain the offending sequence.

Not to go off-topic, but I also cannot see how anyone would like wheat burritos and such. Tortillas , tacos, etc should be made with corn IMHO. Interesting you mention lentil flour, as I just purchased some. Thing is, the odor (and I do mean ODOR) is quite similar to that of a barn full of cows. No joke, it stinks. The company insists there's nothing wrong with it. Now, I may have a sensitive sniffer, and I may not have ever used lentil flour before, but there's NO WAY anyone in there right mind would think this is normal. Your opinion please?

LOL... its what you're used to ... several hundred million Indians find it homely

Its not really just the single sequence, barely and rye don't have EXACTLY the same sequence just one close enough... and they are problably further away (genetically) from wheat than wheat is from its wilder forebears...

Its not that its not interesting .... its just that the whole thing about wheat is what people "expect" ....

I find this research information about the early wheat grains to be interesting. It certainly explains why early agricultural civilizations did not have the autoimmune problem we now have with gluten. I had wondered about this before, and why it is only in recent history that there has been so much gluten intolerance. Obviously, we have a higher exposure now than people did "back then".

Unfortunately we don't have written records of pre-history... however within recent history gluten intolerance is documented for over 2000 years.... however its not classified as an autoimmune disease until after we discover the immune system and auto immune diseases...??? What exactly do you mean by recent? 10,000 years or 100,000 years?

[RiceGuy]

LOL... its what you're used to ... several hundred million Indians find it homely

Its not really just the single sequence, barely and rye don't have EXACTLY the same sequence just one close enough... and they are problably further away (genetically) from wheat than wheat is from its wilder forebears...

Its not that its not interesting .... its just that the whole thing about wheat is what people "expect" ....

Right. People have their expectations, comfort zones, etc. But if a "safe" wheat were developed, those who'd be using it would be the gluten intolerant, and next to flours with zero sticky stuff, even a diminished amount would likely be a big hit.

About the lentil flour; I'll reply via PM, if you don't mind, so as to not pull the thread off-topic.

[gfp]

Right. People have their expectations, comfort zones, etc. But if a "safe" wheat were developed, those who'd be using it would be the gluten intolerant, and next to flours with zero sticky stuff, even a diminished amount would likely be a big hit.

About the lentil flour; I'll reply via PM, if you don't mind, so as to not pull the thread off-topic.

I see what your saying, its just that we already have reduced gluten "wheat" in terms of rye for instance...

I think the other half of my retiscence is I just don't feel comfy with more frankenstein type crops....

In other words trying to do this semi-naturally I don't see we will get the sequence we need to be sticky enough yet not trigger autoimmune response and using GM techniques.... I'm just terribly resistant against.... largely because most of our food intolerances are the results of the last 2000 years of artificially changing the genetics of our food and not knowing the long term consequences...

In effect what you describe earlier... we are now seeing the long term consequences of 2000 yrs of selective breeding and planting... most of which accelerated over the last century.... the idea of doing 2000 yrs of mutations in a single GM experiment is a bit scary to me.... I don't mind them removing thorns off roses but something I'm going to eat different matter IMHO???

just got your pm so... off to answer

[chrissy]

the one thing about the article that i find kind of funny, is that they are thinking they could breed this safe wheat----isn't this what caused the problems in the first place? we might breed the wheat to be safe for a celiac, but in the process, we might create some other problem. why do we always think we can improve on mother nature?????

[gfp]

the one thing about the article that i find kind of funny, is that they are thinking they could breed this safe wheat----isn't this what caused the problems in the first place? we might breed the wheat to be safe for a celiac, but in the process, we might create some other problem. why do we always think we can improve on mother nature?????

Chrissy, that exactly my concern....

that and I don't see the point... even if they did how could they stop it cross pollenating?

It reminds me of Jurassic Park and the "Its OK the dinosaurs can't breed" line!

[RiceGuy]

I see what your saying, its just that we already have reduced gluten "wheat" in terms of rye for instance...

I think the other half of my retiscence is I just don't feel comfy with more frankenstein type crops....

In other words trying to do this semi-naturally I don't see we will get the sequence we need to be sticky enough yet not trigger autoimmune response and using GM techniques.... I'm just terribly resistant against.... largely because most of our food intolerances are the results of the last 2000 years of artificially changing the genetics of our food and not knowing the long term consequences...

In effect what you describe earlier... we are now seeing the long term consequences of 2000 yrs of selective breeding and planting... most of which accelerated over the last century.... the idea of doing 2000 yrs of mutations in a single GM experiment is a bit scary to me.... I don't mind them removing thorns off roses but something I'm going to eat different matter IMHO???

Yes, agreed 100%. Though the solution I was thinking of would not be yet another GM crop, but the return of the original wheat varieties, which apparently cannot be grown commercially due to all the hybrid pollen floating around. It still may not be safe for a Celiac, but I'd bet far fewer people would develop Celiac from it. In other words, perhaps it's the hybrids which more often pushes the immune system "over the edge". And once that can of worms is opened, there's no going back.

the one thing about the article that i find kind of funny, is that they are thinking they could breed this safe wheat----isn't this what caused the problems in the first place? we might breed the wheat to be safe for a celiac, but in the process, we might create some other problem. why do we always think we can improve on mother nature?????

Yep. Man always thinks he's "improving" stuff. But it's just like antibiotics giving rise to "super bugs". Solve one problem, create a myriad more. To quote from Jurassic Park: "Nature finds a way". Everybody thought plastics were great at one time too. Maybe today's wheat is just like that, and one day we finally see enough of the bigger picture that the dawn strikes.