Oxalates And Nightshades

[Flor]

Judy,

I just bought the book -- I'll let you know when it gets here if it's worth it! :-)

xoxo

Florence

[amanda nc]

Hi all,

My goodness! I don't check this thread for two days and you all have added two pages!!

NOOO--the book should NOT be $50! It is less than $30, I think, directly from the VP Foundation. You can also order it from Wellness Pharmacy, I think, in Alabama. I will look up phone numbers and addresses to post today.

I can't imagine where the website went. I just printed out joining info last week. It looks like it's GONE, though! I will try to call and see. Maybe the person who maintained it got sick of doing it? It's really a small organization; they may not have felt a web presence is worth it.

While I've been on the diet for a year, and a little higher now and then, you have all galvanized me to redouble my efforts and hit it hard again. I remember how GOOD I was feeling for so long; I have backslid somewhat with my efforts. Actually, I felt good enough to be doing other things for the first time in years, as the brain fog and depression had gone away to a good extent! And so I stopped cooking, and did things like hung pictures and cleaned out my laundry and some things I haven't been up to doing since we moved here two years ago. And so we began defaulting to some higher oxalate things. And today, for the first time in a year, I have a kidney infection beginning . Can you believe I have been singing the praises of the diet, and have been so slack myself?? I'm so embarrassed! But it has given me my life back, and SO helped my son...I will get back in the kitchen as soon as I am well!!

A word about testing for metals chelating from the diet. I don't know why this has not been tested. Also, the crystals that appear in many people's stools have not been tested. Nor have the black flecks, though it is suspected they are iron. The Great Plains lab in Kansas (Dr. William Shaw) has been doing LOTS of oxalate related stuff, and they are apparently somewhat at odds with Susan Owens' theories, and the two do not seem to be working together well. You could go to the Great Plains website to read some about oxalates, though I think the info is old. They are the ones doing testing, but I have not seen much about results. BUT I have not been looking, either.

I do recall someone talking about a doctor checking metals levels in urine while a child was on the diet, and the metals levels did increase. I'm sure it was on the LOD forum, but I don't remember when or where. I agree, it is an easy test, and it's hard to believe it hasn't been done.

Also, some of our key foods have not been tested, which makes this all very hard. Potato starch and tapioca are my main gripes; we are not able to do this diet for a whole family including kids without baked goods of some kind. And not coconut/pumpkinseed flatbread either!! I can't do that for two years. My kids are too normal, and out in the world. We have already subjected them to SCD, and severe restrictions--they are already troopers, eating NO CANDY at the fall festival at church last night. I am so proud.

I will look for addresses!!

Amanda

[Judyin Philly]

I all

Thanks for the great info.

I'll be looking into the book and reading the links.

We are heading to Cape May NJ this am so will be off line till the weekend

have a great weeke everyone.

hugs

Judy

[Flor]

Hey you guys!

You know these "functional medicine" people?

Pretty interesting stuff. Here's a list of some of their presentations, also available as downloadable PDF files.

Here's the link:

Open Original Shared Link

I just looked at one about managing IBD -- they include celiac disease in this.

It's a good roundup of research. Including that VSL3 performs pretty well. AND that "prebiotics" (which I didn't know anything about) may be key -- oat bran! I have been completely stopped up for several days and so oat bran is looking pretty good right now.

Anyway, I'll keep looking through their stuff -- one specifically on celiac disease in there. Would love to get other people's reactions.

xoxo

F

[amanda nc]

I mentioned Dr. Semon's "Feast Without Yeast" diet, and how it had helped depression. I didn't tell you why, though. When I began the low oxalate diet, and it was so restricted, I had a hard time changing over. So I plunked down and started combing cookbooks for gluten-free/cf soy-free, corn-free recipes that were low oxalate too. And I had a eureka! moment. Vinegar-based sauces and salads would almost all be low oxalate! So I began making slaws, and barbecues, and deviled eggs, and on and on. And using vinegar to clabber milk for baking. And lots of vanilla extract in baking. Since we have also been on the Feingold diet, I was using white vinegar.

And after awhile my son and I almost stopped having bowel movements. We were going six or seven days between. And then no D, but thick, pasty, yucky stools. I also started into a very deep depression--for about six months.

Now, this was after a period of great stools at the beginning of the LOD.

Dr. Semon says that vinegar is a horrible neurotoxin for some people. It slows the brain function, and slows the nerves in the gut. There are several other neurotoxins in foods (like chocolate) that do the same.

Since going on Dr. Semon's diet, my stools are BACK TO NORMAL. This is huge! I had gotten so scared. And my depression is gone too! And my son's inability to do school, our last big hurdle, is gone. We talk about brain fog--I am thinking that brain fog was what's been tripping up my son.

The low oxalate diet fixes some of the same things Dr. Semon's diet fixed for us. We are trying to do stage 3 of his diet, which is not really so restrictive, at the same time as the LOD. The "rice as our only grain" part is what's toughest, and my son has a slight allergy to rice as well.

So thought I'd post that here--motility has been my biggest life-long issue, alternating with D and constipation. Most of it fixed by going gluten free, at least the D, but then constipation has been our fight since then.

Oh--there is a soluble fiber product, called "Heather's Tummy Fiber," that is oxalate-free. Metamucil, which we used to use, is full of maltodextrin, Dr. Semon's enemy number one (vinegar's enemy number 2!) It's on the net on Heather's IBS website. It dissolves completely in water or juice, and has no taste. You can stir it into food. We love it here, and it's doing the trick. Would that qualify as a pre-biotic? I'll have to learn more about that.

Amanda

[amanda nc]

Here's the link for the cookbook--for $27.00.

Open Original Shared Link

Amanda

[nora-n]

Just thinking about that there used to be something one poured into spinach many years ago to neutralize the oxalates......I lived in Denmark then, and there was this clear liquid that was sold for spinach. What could that have been?

[amanda nc]

Ooooohh! I'd love to know. Also, I had always heard about cooking things well to neutralize oxalates; this apparently doesn't do the trick. I've never heard of the liquid...maybe it would work on other things as well.

Amanda

[oceangirl]

Hello.

I know somewhere in this thread a "die-off" is mentioned after going "oxalate light". Could someone please elaborate on this? Or just explain what it is and what the symptoms of it are? Sorry, I just don't have the time to read this entire thread again.

For what it's worth (thanks for that, Buffalo Springfield...), I have had very litle oxalate for three days and I haven't felt that deep left hip pain at all. Jury is still out, however...could be a coincidence as it seems a rather random pain.

Thank you again,

lisa

[amanda nc]

Hi,

The dumping symptoms seem to be a worsening or reappearance of problems that you have that are caused by oxalate. In my case, I had kidney and I think yeast issues. For years, I would get sick just unexplainably, but the flag that I was getting sick was that I would get back pain, a very puffy face, have to get up to urinate in the night, and feel generally flu-like. After about five days on the diet, I got sick. I was very sick for maybe a week, and somewhat sick for a total of three weeks.

Also, which was very hard for me, I got weepy and very, very depressed. Almost non-functional. That was the hardest thing in the beginning, worse than being sick.

My husband and daughter got respiratory symptoms, coughing and phlegm and congestion. But that's been the root of their health issues--my husband has taken Zyrtec daily for years now.

So I think that "dumping symptoms" will probably be a worsening, for the short-term, of your core issues. Autistic kids "regress" for a couple of weeks.

Also, diarrhea will sometimes appear. Also, for some, cloudy urine, white "rice-like" flecks in the stools (they call them crystals) or black flecks in the stool. If you get the cloudy urine, DRINK WATER. And some people apparently will dump the toxins through their skin in different ways--my skin gets acne-like cysts general facial skin eruptions when I'm dumping. Other people see white powdery stuff on their skin.

So, however you dump your toxins, that's what will show.

Epsom salts baths (1 cup in the bath) help. Sweating helps. Drinking water helps. Calcium citrate helps.

There is something they call the "honeymoon period" that lasts about the first 4 days of the diet, where people and kids do GREAT. Then the dumping begins. The first few days were, for us, a glimpse of how we ended up feeling after some time on the diet.

Good luck!

Amanda

[oceangirl]

Thank you, Amanda- sounds similar to apres gluten-removal.

lisa

[Flor]

Hey you all,

I've had a setback the whole last week -- I don't know if it's dumping or because I ate some bad stuff. I tried to bring corn back in in the form of white corn chips. Maybe that was the problem? I also ran out of VLS3, so maybe that's it.

I got all backed up, if you know what I mean, and I'm not sure on this diet what I can eat to get things moving. Fiber intake may be a problem on LOD, huh?

It feels like when the food gets backed up in my gut for days that I start to just feel poisoned. One of the best things about going on this LOD was that I stopped being bloated all the time, but now it's back and I'm frustrated. Seems like there are always too many variable to figure out what the cause is.

Some signs of inflammation too -- my tongue sore. And my joints are creaking in a way they never do. Almost like I've lost whatever lubricates the joints.

Anyway...I wanted to mention that there's a useful thread that started up over at the trying low oxalates yahoo group about sample daily diets.

I'm pasting one of them here just to give you a sense -- it's also gluten-free, but not DF.

I'm finding I'm getting into a rut in this LOD and need to try some new ingredients.

"Hi.

I figured I would jot down what I eat on a typical day if anyone wanted to get

any ideas.

I eat pretty much the same things ever day, and I estimate the amount of oxalate

to be

between 20-30.

I am an adult female and probably get about 1800 calories.

I am also gluten free, but not avoiding dairy (although all the dairy I eat is

cultured.)

I don't eat sugar or anything processed.

I don't measure or count anymore because I have been doing it for so long.

Breakfast.

Egg Omlette fried in butter or ghee.

Shallots, capers or bits of apple chopped into omlette.

Lunch.

Turkey breast (Skytop Farms)(2-3oz) wrapped around avocado slices.

Yogurt with mango slices.

Rice crackers with homemade yogurt cream cheese and cucumber slices.

Turnip fritters (turnip, chopped onion, egg, olive oil.)

Dinner.

Broiled Fish (Trout or Salmon), acorn squash, cauliflower - steamed.

Olive oil, lemon juice, chopped onions.

Duck breast marinated with peaches, cherries and shallots, served over wild rice

(soaked

over night).

Sockeye salmon cakes made with duck egg, and chestnut flour, cultured cabbage or

daikon radish, summer and winter squash ratitoulle.

Shrimp Breaded in coconut flour fried in coconut oil, served over white rice

noodles.

Chicken marinated in honey, with boiled, then grilled brussel sprouts with

onions.

Snacks.

Peeled apples.

Macaroons (coconut, egg white, vanilla, honey.)

Cottage cheese with cultured pinapple.

Fresh coconut chunks.

Roasted chestnuts with honey.

Yogurt with honey or applebutter.

Condiments I use are olive oil, coconut oil, honey, and himalayan salt.

Sometimes I get fancy and make chesnut flour crepes, (chestnut flour, egg,

water, vanilla,

butter in pan), and stuff them with baked apples and honey but mostly it's all

really

simple."

[amanda nc]

Hi all,

Susan Owens has put up a website for the oxalate project,

www.lowoxalate.info

I have not really looked it over yet, but it is supposed to be more accessible and user-friendly for the beginners, and also should present information in a better manner. The forum had become pretty cumbersome for a number of reasons. Too much chatter there to follow well unless you spent time there daily, I think. So might be worth a look!

Amanda

[nora-n]

How intersting.

About the liquid to neutralize the oxalate in spinach, I remember distinctly it was calcium. Would be nice and handy to have it for other things too....maybe a chemist can answer what it is, and how to find it/make it.

[Yellow Rose]

Is anyone here taking MSM? I bought some a couple months ago for joint pain but never took it. I've read some amazing stories about it, though.

My husband started taking it about a month and a half ago and his knee pain and finger pain and feet pain has all but dissappeared. I started taking it about 3 weeks ago and am still in pain but am doing much better. Swelling has been reduced, redness and stiffness is about 1/2 of what it was. Over all muscle pain is also much better. DH was only taking one pill a day I am taking 3 a day.

Yellow Rose

[amanda nc]

This is a reprint of a post on the LOD board. We have been talking a lot about vitamin D, with many people taking between 4,000 and 10,000 IU D3 with really amazing results. We have been taking D3 as well for awhile now.

I am on the Low Oxalate Diet with great results, as is my son. He tested low for vitamin D, even though he spends GREAT amounts of time in the son year-round; loves it when it

[Yellow Rose]

MSM - I don't remember what it stands for and the bottle is downstairs. But you'll find it in the joint/bone health section of any health food store, along with the glucosamine and chondriton and stuff like that.

MSM stands for Methylsulfonylmethane it is a dietary supplement for bones and joints. It is an organic source of sulfur, a mineral that is vital in the formation of collagen, connective tissue, and healthy joint cartilage. MSM helps support your joints. The recommended dosage is 1000 mg three x a day with meals. It can be found in the pharmacy section at Wal-Mart or at health food stores. It really works well for pain. My husband and I have been using it after hearing about it on Larry King Live and reading about it on the internet. He was taking Aleeve for pain in his feet and knees and had recently injured his finger at work. I read in an alternative med book that Aleeve had a side affect of heart attacks and strokes and MSM was a natural alternative. He got relief within a week of taking MSM and he was only taking one pill a day. I started taking it about a month later and and have had significant pain reduction in my muscles and joints. It still hurts but is getting better by the day. I have been able to reduce the amount of prednisone and ibuprophen I have been taking and the effects seem to be cumalative. I am taking the 3 a day dose. I did check with my Dr. before adding it to my meds.

Hi everyone I am back from my elemination diet started a month ago and when I finish reading the last couple of pages will tell you what I have discovered. It was pretty eye opening for me.

Yellow Rose

[Yellow Rose]

Ok I've finished reading all 27 pages and to think there was only 15 when I started the e diet a month ago. I haven't been back to read what has been going on since starting. This is what I have found out for me. My e diet was geared toward releaving muscle and joint pain and I found it by looking at the paleo diet. There was a link on a pain free e diet for people with athritus symptoms. But along the way I ran into posts about MSG, processed foods, yeast, oxalates, and nightshades. So I did the diet but made a bunch of posters so I could track what was really going on. I just thought I was having gluten problems. HA!! that was only the tip of the iceburg.

I reacted to cheese both white and yellow, butter, and chocolate that had milk in it so milk or casin is out. Corn in any form such as cornsyrup, corn tortillias, corn chips, corn in general so corn is out. Soy in any form is also out. Rice as well. Red and white potatoes, tomatoes, bell peppers, never got around to eggplant but I am pretty sure that with all the other nightshades reacting that the eggplant will too. The only oxalate I reacted to was peaches and that is a medium one. All of the reactions were related to my muscle or joint pain. I had swelling, reddness, stiffness, and pain. Some was slight but most reactions were severe and lasted 2 to 3 days. I was an idiot by not checking my meds for corn. I was still getting it from the ibuprophen and the soy I was getting from vit E. I switched to liquid IB and stopped the Vit E. Does anyone know of vitimans without corn or soy? When on the diet I was supposed to clear completely of symptoms by the first week and that didn't happen. There was a note that if you don't clear you probably have a yeast overgrowth or bacterial overgrowth. I am pretty sure after reading all of this on yeast that I have issues with it and and the bacteria. So I have improved but not enough. I will now be eleminating the offending things out of my diet, cut out the sugars to kill the yeast and do the bacteria cure that was suggested on the site and see if that helps. I have noticed that my mood has improved. I am not as tired and don't need naps anymore. I have started to stretch and will add some strengthening exercise to my daily routine. It is very frustrating knowing that before going gluten free I was eating all these things and not having any problems with them so I thought. I guess since my gut is healing up I am now absorbing more so the reactions are increasing and showing up with a vengence. But I am ever optomistic that I can become a healthy person again. What is that old saying, "You are what you eat!!"

Yellow Rose

[Judyin Philly]

Ok I've finished reading all 27 pages and to think there was only 15 when I started the e diet a month ago.

It is very frustrating knowing that before going gluten free I was eating all these things and not having any problems with them so I thought. I guess since my gut is healing up I am now absorbing more so the reactions are increasing and showing up with a vengence. But I am ever optomistic that I can become a healthy person again. What is that old saying, "You are what you eat!!"

Yellow Rose

Dear Yellow Rose....

congratulations on the 27 page read..............

It is amazing isn't it.

I'm so glad your joining us on this 'journey'

What you said about going gluten-free and healing...............and then..................all the foods we were eating our bodies are not liking.................

I also am finding so many positives and am optomistic also.........time will tell won't it.

For now, I'm so blessed to have found some relief...........but...............there sure aren't many food choices that I like left

so glad your here and please keep posting.......we're all learning so much from each other.

Judy in PHilly

[truthsearcher]

I enjoyed your post Yellow Rose. You definitely have persistence in your blood.

BTW, I always have arthritis symptoms/Fibro flares when I eat nightshades.

I haven't delved deep into the LOD yet, but may have too. Right now trying to steer clear of gluten as I'm waiting for the Entero lab gene test and have avoided sugar, processed food for the fibro and candida diagnosis.

I have enjoyed reading here. Thanks for all the great info.

TS

[Yellow Rose]

For now, I'm so blessed to have found some relief...........but...............there sure aren't many food choices that I like left

Judy in PHilly

Judy I am hearing you about not many food choices left. I was doing better just doing veggies, fruit, and meats. George Forman Grill has become our favorite way to cook. I got a magazine in the mail the other day that had seasoning mixes you could make yourself. I am going to try them and see how they taste. If they are any good I will post them.

BTW, I always have arthritis symptoms/Fibro flares when I eat nightshades.

and have avoided sugar, processed food for the fibro and candida diagnosis.

TS

TS the nightshades are the things I cooked with the most. I love them and don't know how I am going to adjust to this one. It is for me tougher than giving up wheat.

How has avoiding sugar and processed food worked for you on the fibro symptoms? What are your candida symptoms? I am just generally itchy if I eat too much sugar I don't have yeast problems with the folds of my skin like some others but do itch all over especially my scalp and arms. I have been noticing since I am finally paying attention to what is going on in my body that the only time I seem to itch is when I am having a sugar binge.

Yellow Rose

[Flor]

Amanda, thank you for the Vit D post. That's VERY interesting.

I've been out of town the last week and therefore backsliding all over the place on the diet. Now home and time to get back to it and try to regain the ground lost in the last couple of weeks.

LOD cookbook arrived and I am reading.

Am going downstairs to swallow some more Vit D!

Florence

[Flor]

Hi again.

I've just been reading the new edition of the Low Oxalate Cookbook and saw in the

research review in there that in addition to timed calcium citrate that their research cohort has

had success with NAG and HTO.

I have no idea where one gets these or in what doses.

NAG is N-acetyl-glucosamine. HTO is hexadecyl tetradecenoyl octodecanoate. They both are related to helping heal connective tissue. The first helps hyaluronic acid synthesize and the second inhibits the enzyme that breaks it down. HTO also generates linolenic acid which is supposed to ease inflammation and support tissue healing. The research they presents indicates that their cohort had lower levels of hyaluronic acid than the general population.

Do any of you have experience with either of these supplements?

A couple other interesting tidbits from the LO cookbook:

1. They've retested and newly tested a lot of foods. Some previously thought to be high oxalate turned out not be. And vice versa. I had the impression reading it that I could be eating a wider variety of foods than I am. I think it's worth having this book on hand.

2. The symptoms they list as oxalate-related are eye-opening. There's a cluster of seemingly unrelated symptoms many of which I have been having and it didn't occur to me they would be connected. Like jaw clicking, anal itching, diarrhea, burning palms, and joint inflammation. I mean, I gathered it was all connected somehow, but their focus on damage to connective tissue and this hyaluronic acid seems pretty interesting.

3. They say we should be taking our calcium citrate on an empty stomach 20 minutes before eating. And then Susan Owens reiterated in a posting today that we should NOT take Vit D with the calcium but at a different time because Vit D inhibits calcium's ability to bind the oxalates.

Thanks,

Florence

[Flor]

Hi me again.

Well, I've figured out what NAG is:

Open Original Shared Link

Seems like might be useful! The healthfood store we have only carries NAC -- which is N-acetyl-cisteine (I think) -- and not the same thing. In the joint health section you can find Glucosamine Sulfate, but apparently it's not so easily absorbed for people with sulfur sensitivities -- which I may be because MSM doesn't seem to agree with me.

Anyway, I'm gonna order some of this, especially since the Low Oxalate Cookbook folks recommend it. Will keep you posted.

[Judyin Philly]

HI All

Back from 'girls nites in Cape May'. It was wonderful.

BUT THE EVEN BETTER WONDERFUL NEWS IS........................

I just got off the phone with Valerie W from the Susan Owesn Low Oxalate diet site who turned Robbin and I onto this this whole issue.

She was just amazing to talk to and gave me lots of tips and support. I asked her to stop by our thread and take a look at it..............She's a busy lady so don't know if she will join to post .........but if she does.................we'll be lucky to have her imput.

Wanted to bump this site up front so she can find it.

Florence...............are you still enjoying the book #vol 2?

Hugs to you all

Missed you and will catch up soon.

Judy in Philly