Degree Of Sensitivity To Foods Question

[doodle]

Hi all. I am changing over my food business to - mostly - gluten free cooking and baking. However I would appreciate your input to tell me if what I am planning would be of concern to only those of you who are extremely gluten sensitive or all celiacs in general.

Most days I would cook my meals in a dedicated gluten free environment. On certain days however, I would be working with gluten in the form of pasta noodles. I would not be making the noodles but simply boiling them in dedicated pots & only using dedicated utensils. They are made fresh for me in another location and I bring them in.

I also bake gluten meat and fruit pies but again they have already been hand made for me in a different location. So there would be no loose gluten flour in my environment whatsoever but we would be cooking gluten products at my location.

I would then also designate other days as gluten free baking and cooking.

We also run a deli and we make sandwiches. We do not bake our own bread, we simply handle the bread to make the sandwiches.

Would you say that what I plan to do would be acceptable from a sensitivity level to most or all celiacs and if not, why?

The rest of the time we would dedicate our kitchen to gluten free cooking and baking etc.

Also, is it acceptable to cook a number of gluten products and then gluten free poducts in the same oven without causing a reaction to sensitive celiacs?

Does anyone see a problem with this arrangement?

thanks, doodle

[ravenwoodglass]

It sounds like you have a pretty good plan. I don't think sharing the oven would be an issue as long as stuff is not being cooked at the same time.

I would treat gluten foods the same as you do you fresh meats in that I would keep them totally seperate from other items in storage or in your cooler. Do not store your gluten foods above the nongluten ones. Make sure you check your spices and I would just go with the gluten free for everything seasonings wise as it would be easier. I would also consider having a dedicated gluten free work station for sandwiches with employees changing gloves or one employee dedicated to just that station. Seperate prep utensils of course would also be needed and you would need a seperate prep areas for gluten free and gluten foods. With proper training of your employees you shouldn't have any problems. I wish more restaurants thought to check with the safety of their practices as with a little caution it is quite possible to cook for us safely.

[doodle]

It sounds like you have a pretty good plan. I don't think sharing the oven would be an issue as long as stuff is not being cooked at the same time.

Thanks ravenwoodglass. I already run a pretty tight ship as far as food safety is concerned - ie: new gloves for every sandwich, constant hand washing and only made at the correct station

I would designate only certain utensils for gluten use and I wouldn't even think of cross contamination by way of storing gluten and non-gluten products together

My biggest issue and concern is to make sure that I can safely prepare gluten products, like boiling the noodles or cooking premade (offsite) gluten (flour) pies and cakes etc. in the same oven I would also be baking the gluten-free bread in.

looking forward to hearing from other extremely sensitive celiacs to see what they think

doodle

[MaryJones2]

I am pretty sensitive and don't do well with any food made in a shared kitchen so I probably wouldn't visit you but I'll tell you the things that I thought about when reading your posts. The thing I would be most concerned with are the bread crumbs from the deli and the crumbs from the pies, etc. It would be pretty darn hard to clean everything up and keep stray crumbs out. The common areas would also be a potential source for contamination (oven door handles, etc.) and the oven would have to be clean so nothing with gluten falls into something that you're baking (I'm thinking if a pie bubbled over and got on the rack and then you baked on a lower rack).

Do you follow a gluten-free diet? If not, you may consider going through the certifications with the GFCO to make sure you're doing everything properly. Like ravenswood said, I do wish more restaurants thought to ask questions like this. Just because I don't think I could eat there doesn't mean it's not a great idea. I'm sure that the overwhelming majority of gluten-free folks would welcome an establishment like yours!

[raisin]

honestly.. For someone like me, the only way that could work (maybe) is if you had a "gluten area" and " gluten-free" area in the kitchen, and they never touched the same surfaces. "cleaning between item-types" never seems to be enough to keep me fully CC-free. Same oven is potentially a problem, but kind of depends. I'm probably not your ideal customer, though. While I can safely eat out at 2 restaurants and drink starbucks (usually) I'm still terrified of new places that are only "most-gluten-free", partly because even if the owner cares about gluten, the staff may not grasp the concept. I've had a lot of bad experiences, via waitresses/waiters not taking my requests seriously (i.e. Please don't mix my salad with the others, Please don't touch the lid area of my cup, etc.) even at those two restaurants I can theoretically eat safely at, and yes I get sick when they don't listen, and sometimes the chef will CC it. And, for someone like me, you cannot use the same plates, forks, spoons, knives, whatever, for gluten and non-gluten food. When I eat out, I always have to order it in "to go" boxes. On top of all that, I always feel like the semi-educated staff find me irritating for making weird requests, even if the owner likes me and I ask nicely and leave a huge tip, which is not the experience you seek when eating out.

Because of all the horrible experiences I've had with shared kitchens, I also would not go to any place like yours. I also react to gluten residue on my skin, and gluten dust in the air, which any deli inevitably has. The two restaurants I go to now are bad enough, and I wouldn't go there if I wasn't begged by others who want to eat out with me.

Most genuinely super sensitive celiacs do not eat out. Ever. It was a nice sentiment you had, though.

[SGWhiskers]

I'm in the super sentitive group. It's been 6 months, and after several reactions, I've quit eating out. It would be a hard sell to get me to come to your restaraunt, but there are 2 places I've had success, and might be willing to give it another try if I had the right vibe after a conversation with the chef and knew he was personally cooking it.

I've learned that smelling hot gluten will give me the neuro reaction. When my oven is opened, (I've not self cleaned it yet) to pull a dish out, I instantly start mild neuro symptoms. I've also learned that crumbs and/or flour in the air knock me out for the day. I gave up the grocery store last week.

For me, if cross contamination was properly managed and the staff was consistent, I would want fresh air forced into the dining area and forced out the kitchen and...

Oh forget it. I can't ever eat out again.

I wish you the best and many customers who are not quite as sensitive as me. You are doing a good thing trying to offer celiacs someplace to eat. I would have loved to have gone out for dinner last Friday.

[doodle]

thank you for your replies, I can see 2 things,

a) I am sorry, I did not explain myself thoroughly enough for you to fully understand my question and

based on SGW's reply, some celiacs are so sensitive that even the smell of gluten cooking is enough to cause a reaction

please be so kind as to re-address my question based on the following, more detailed information

I am not a restaurant, I am a small family business that makes all of our meals from scratch & then packages them to sell to our customers in our retail store--many of the meals we make right now are done without glutenbut we make it clear to our customers that we are not a dedicated gluten free kitchen so they can decide for themselves

the kitchen is separated from the retail area and we do not do any sandwich prep in the kitchen, it is all done "out front" in the designated deli area

the gluten bread that we use to make the sandwiches never comes back into the kitchen, it is always kept at the deli and everyone that works in my store wears a clean pair of disposable gloves each time a sandwich is made -

- my first inquiry is to ask : in your opinion or experience would the continual opening of the bread container & the constant removal of the gloves cause some (or many) to have a reaction?

next: gluten and gluten-free products would be made on different days so as to avoid as much air borne CC as possible--

on the days that we would work with gluten, it would only be the boiling of gluten pastas and gluten egg noodles ( not the making of them) that would cause the aroma of gluten to be present- there would never be any loose flour being used- and it would only be done in designated pots using dedicated utensils and these items would be washed separately

and lastly, while there would be no crumbs from gluten pies falling onto non gluten cookies, muffins or bread because we cook on baking sheets, and we would not be cooking the 2 options at the same time, in your opinion or experience would there be a problem if if gluten and non-gluten items were baked in the same oven but at different times?

and as a matter of interest, my goal would be to convert entirely to a gluten-free environment as soon as it is feasible but that is just not possible for now

but once we did become entirely gluten free, do you feel is is also necessary for my staff to avoid bringing any gluten products into work to eat (for their lunches) even if they abide by my strick rules of hand washing and only eat in a designated area away from the "action"

thanks again- doodle

[raisin]

Almost nothing in your new post seems different from the first (aside from explaining the placement and that it's more of a "to-go" kind of deal) You were pretty clear.

The thing about very sensitive celiacs.. As you have noticed, we aren't enthusiastic about eating out in general, after so many bad experiences it's easy to become cynical. Having a shared kitchen/equipment in any context is almost always a problem. I assumed you weren't cooking them at the same time (scary thought). Looking at it from an SS point of view.. it's like saying "I use poisons in my kitchen, but in separate pans, on separate days from the food. We keep most of the poison outside and never have powdered poison in the kitchen." - And if you serve both on the same days it's like adding in "Oh we keep the poison by the food out front, but we change gloves in between." (and if you serve both in the same areas or on the same days, yes. CC becomes a huge, almost unavoidable issue.) - Would you really eat a place with that setup if just the slightest bit of residue from said poison coming in contact with anything that comes in contact with your food would make you flue-like for a week?

Until you're 100% gluten-free, your better off targeting the more "normal" celiacs. We are a difficult group, and while it's always nice when an eatery wants to be accommodating, it's rarely realistic. For example, I can't even order soap that isn't made on a dedicated line.. and it's soap, you'd think it was self-cleaning! Oh and, the smell of gluten makes me feel sick, too. I can't even approach an outdoor stand in the general vicinity of hot gluten. The wind can carry it.

Despite my whole post being kind of a downer, it is genuinely refreshing to see someone in the food industry paying so much attention to a subgroup most seem to ignore.

[Jestgar]

I'm somewhere between normal and sensitive.

I can tell whithin minutes if I've eaten gluten, but my reactions are mild, so I'm more willing to risk CC than someone with a long, painful reaction.

I eat salads from the work cafeteria almost everyday. Everything else made there has gluten.

Rarely do I get zapped.

So it seems to me, if you do things as you say, and take care not to drip pasta water in unexpected places, maybe 85% of Celiacs would be willing to try your food. Those that wouldn't just have to much to lose if it isn't separated enough.

[doodle]

I'm somewhere between normal and sensitive.

I eat salads from the work cafeteria almost everyday. Everything else made there has gluten.

So it seems to me, if you do things as you say, and take care not to drip pasta water in unexpected places, maybe 85% of Celiacs would be willing to try your food. Those that wouldn't just have to much to lose if it isn't separated enough.

Oh raisin, you have given me a confirmation (by metaphor) of what I was concerned about. Thank you so much for giving me your perspective from the level of sensitivity you have.

At the moment, I have a section of gluten-free food that has been made in a completely dedicated gluten-free environment and we are also making a number of meals gluten-free.

My staff and I ask every celiac that comes in to purchase how severe there sensitivity level is. Some say they can tolerate small amounts of CC without any ill effects but many also say they are extrememly sensitive so we tell them only to buy from the section that is labeled (dedicated) gluten-free. I have not had anyone to date come in & express concern that they may be affected just by being in our dual service food environment. That is exactly what I wasn't sure of

Because I am not celiac I did not know to what degree a person with accute sensitivity is affected. So I hope I can say, based on Jestgar's reply, that for now, under the regime I spoke about, at least 75% of my customers will be able to enjoy our food without any ill effects and my goal is to become completely gluten-free to serve people that have the level of sensitiviy that the other 25% of you have.

I am also motivated for personal reasons as my 1 year old grandson is severely (epi-pen required) allergic to eggs and dairy so my SIL and I will be developing products to help others in that situation as well.

doodle

[MaryJones2]

I have not had anyone to date come in & express concern that they may be affected just by being in our dual service food environment.

The ultra sensitives are a tough bunch. Most of us would take one look at the deli counter and not go in so that might explain why you haven't had someone ask. Perhaps if you put up a sign detailing your processes for preventing cross contamination you could put our minds at ease.

As I said earlier the overwhelming majority of celiacs will love you.

[ravenwoodglass]

So it seems to me, if you do things as you say, and take care not to drip pasta water in unexpected places, maybe 85% of Celiacs would be willing to try your food. Those that wouldn't just have to much to lose if it isn't separated enough.

I agree with Jestgar.

I am also an extremely senstitive celiac. I was also a professional chef in a restaurant that catered to folks with food sensitivities. The precautions that you mention taking would be sufficient for me to be comfortable eating your food.

[Lisa16]

Hi doodle!

I am in the "don't at out" group, but there are times when you are forced into it-- if you are traveling, for example. I am glad you are investigating this so thoroughly! Thank you.l

I think you are taking reasonable precuations for a mixed kitchen.

One thing I wasn't sure about was if you were aware about the baking sheets. I have learned from experience that I cannot use a baking sheet that was previously used for gluten-- especially if it has teflon. But I imagine you have dedicated sheets too. You proposition is so expensive-- you have to get all new equipment! In many ways it is like running a kosher kitchen, with two sets of everything.

I have asked on the forum about microwaves and regular ovens and the feeling seems to be that sharing them is okay for most people. I feel that is probably the case if you are extra careful to clean them well. I know in a kosher kitchen they actually blow torch the ovens.

Some people react to teeny tiny amounts in stuff that legally would be considered "gluten free."

It is so hard-- you have to treat the gluten as if it were a poison for some people.

I wish you the best of luck in your venture!

Lisa

[raisin]

I am in the "don't at out" group, but there are times when you are forced into it-- if you are traveling, for example.

I have asked on the forum about microwaves and regular ovens and the feeling seems to be that sharing them is okay for most people. I feel that is probably the case if you are extra careful to clean them well. I know in a kosher kitchen they actually blow torch the ovens.

Oh that's a great point! I can at least say, despite CC worries, if I were in the area and needed food, I'd eat at doodle's place in a heartbeat. The chance of being glutened is very minor in a place like that, compared to the standard "getting a salad" at any similar eatery. If it went well, I'd eat there again. The hard part is getting me to believe it's safe enough to try.

I had to replace my microwave (mixer, blender, toaster oven, steamer, etc), as they were making me sick, even after multiple cleanings. I hadn't been able to get my actual oven clean enough not to CC me, and learned to cope with just using the surface to cook.

Also - Glad if the metaphor helped, doodles.

[WW340]

I am a sensitive celiac, and I would give you a try. I would ask a lot of questions first, and then try out your food. I would be a loyal customer as long as I didn't get sick. If I ever got sick from eating there, that would be the end of it.

Good luck with your endeavor.