What About Phenol Foods?

[skikat]

Our son 11 mo old has a gluten intolerance....now on gluten-free diet.....now we are suspecting our dtr probably has problems too....Here is a description of my 3 y.o. dtr....Pale, Pale, Pale with dark circles, temper tantrums frequently....overly sensitive....we have done everything right (we thought) with consistent schedules, time outs, etc. and managing her behavior right now is tough. The dark circles and pale skin is beginning to bother me and I suspect something else is going on. I see many describe this on this forum in their kids...is this malnutrition symptoms? What kind of blood test looks at her nutritional health? Is it called anything? What causes this...what happens with gluten intolerance to cause her to be malnourished?

I also read about foods containing Phenol (apples, bananas, cocoa, milk, peanut butter) causing behavioral problems. They say you need a certain enzyme to process the phenol in these foods.... Sulfatase (?) Transenzyme or PST....and if your child has a deficiency and cannot break this down, it can cause manic-type behaviors...it also says they will crave these foods because they produce an opiod-like effect in brain....one day she asked for 4 apples in a row! Does anyone know if there is a test out there to find out if someone has a deficiency in this enzyme?

Also- she is very smart, social, funny, active....but, starting to look "sicker". She had a tough year with lots of nasal drainage and allergy type symptoms that eventually led to pneumonia.....does she have an immune disorder too? What type of testing do they do to check immune function?

I know these are a lot of questions and I am all over the place, but we have an appt at the ped allergist on wed and I want to be sure I ask all the right questions and get all the right tests there.

Thank you for any advice you can offer. I am so grateful for this forum.

ALS

[Juliebove]

Could be a dairy allergy. My daughter had lots of ear and sinus infections before we learned of her dairy allergy. If I were you, I'd have an allergy test done and make sure they test for food allergies. I can't tell you how many Drs. we went to who did not test for food allergies.

[skikat]

  Juliebove said:

Could be a dairy allergy. My daughter had lots of ear and sinus infections before we learned of her dairy allergy. If I were you, I'd have an allergy test done and make sure they test for food allergies. I can't tell you how many Drs. we went to who did not test for food allergies.

[skikat]

thanks for your input....she started soy milk about 2 weeks ago and we have seen an improvement with her nose running issue....but, i was wondering....are other "intolerances" or allergies likely to show up all the time with blood work? can they be like gluten and not always show up on a blood test?

[momof2sn]

  skikat said:

thanks for your input....she started soy milk about 2 weeks ago and we have seen an improvement with her nose running issue....but, i was wondering....are other "intolerances" or allergies likely to show up all the time with blood work? can they be like gluten and not always show up on a blood test?

Hi

I just wanted to say I have a book called "The Kid-Friendly ADHD & Autism Cookbook" by: Pamela J. Compart, M.D. & Dana Laake, I got mine on Amazon. I know your child is not autistic or have ADHD, but it talks about what you are asking. I have been researching some of this myself. The books tells how phenols are beneficial to the system; it is the PST deficiency that is the problem. It gives the symptoms of a phenol sensitivity.

I have wanted to have my son who has PDD, on the autism spectrum tested for gluten sensitivity, because I have heard the same thing such as your body craving the things that are causing you harm. Most Dr's do the RAST testing which is the blood test for food allergies or they do the IgE which is the fast-acting immune respone done by blood or sking testing. I think the one your are interested in is the food IgG sensitivites, this is the test related to behavioral symptoms. I would recommend getting this book, because it has tons of info as well as recipes, but it will answer all the questions you have.

If you have anything else specific you want to know PM me and I will look it up in this book for you!!

[keepinthefaith]

I have a child who reacts to phenol foods.

We have examples of how the child's handwriting changes before and after apple juice.

Before-- fine, after -- a complete mess, with an emotional breakdown in the middle of writing that included breaking the pencil and rubbing a hole in the paper with the eraser. Plus it looked like it was scribble from a preschooler.

No more apple juice -- in fact by now, we drink no fruit juice at all.

Pineapple is the worst, banana is addictive, apples make him spin, and since we don't do dairy either, we do chocolate rarely.

I can give you more info if you want it.

[skikat]

  keepinthefaith said:

I have a child who reacts to phenol foods.

We have examples of how the child's handwriting changes before and after apple juice.

Before-- fine, after -- a complete mess, with an emotional breakdown in the middle of writing that included breaking the pencil and rubbing a hole in the paper with the eraser. Plus it looked like it was scribble from a preschooler.

No more apple juice -- in fact by now, we drink no fruit juice at all.

Pineapple is the worst, banana is addictive, apples make him spin, and since we don't do dairy either, we do chocolate rarely.

I can give you more info if you want it.

[skikat]

thank you kindly for your reply. Just curious....how did you find out your child had problems with high phenol foods? Is there some sort of testing you can do? I read about them having low levels of sulfate in their systems. The docs look at me like I have two heads when I ask them about this. How can we know for sure? Also- could this inefficiency do break down the phenols be causing her to have malabsorbtion issues? She looks very pale and dark circles. Just wondering if this process is similar to gluten.

[Celena]

I am listening in on this thread. i am very interested in PST issues because my DDs both seem to react to salicylates, amines, and glutamate.

To throw in my two bits, as far as i know the only good test to check for sensitivity is an elimination and challenge of the particular foods.

if anyone wants a LONG and pretty scientific look at the PST issue there is an article linked on Danasview.net. you would have to search under phenol to find it. the article talks about how an inability to process phenols will cause leaky gut issues. and that would def lead (like celiacs) to malabsorption, multiple food allergies, and eventually malnutrition. That said, i have also read that the reverse is true...that leaky gut (from celiacs or whatever) can cause phenol issues. so perhaps it depends on the root cause of everything...?

if anyone has any good links about the issue please share.

So here is my take on a possible connection between gluten and phenol problems. my DD is def sensitive to glutamate. and gluten grains are crammed full of incredibly high levels of GA (glutamic acid or free glutamate; an exitatory amino acid). so it got me to wondering whether people that have behaviour and cognitive changes from gluten might actually be sensitive to the high levels of GA. the reason i came to this idea is because my DD seems to react even worse to oats as she does to true gluten grains. and i reasoned that being that oats have less gluten in them that perhaps she was reacting to some other compound that is found in both gluten grains and oats. well...GA and aspartic acid (another exitatory amino acid and also part of aspartame)

are both very high in oats and gluten grains.

anywho....if anyone can add to this or make any sense of it i would be very grateful

[keepinthefaith]

I just took all phenol foods out of the child's diet for a month, then introduced them in one by one. Kind of like an allergy rotation diet. We used an enzyme for a while that worked quite well.

For this child -- pineapple is the WORST -- was like a drunken monkey, and it was so awful that I just don't give that anymore.

It is a methionine transsulfuration problem, from what I (barely) understand.

Try this link that explains it:

Open Original Shared Link

Then here is a link on enzymes: Open Original Shared Link

Also, epsom salts work wonders for many. This explains why.

Open Original Shared Link

I hope this helps.

[keepinthefaith]

I doubt your doc would be up on this stuff, by the way. Most of the garden variety MDs are not, sadly.

I have some links of stuff you could print out, and lots more info on this stuff. W/ behavioral things like your daughter has, it sounds like you are barking up the RIGHT tree.

Was she on antibiotics when she was sick?

[skikat]

  keepinthefaith said:

I doubt your doc would be up on this stuff, by the way. Most of the garden variety MDs are not, sadly.

I have some links of stuff you could print out, and lots more info on this stuff. W/ behavioral things like your daughter has, it sounds like you are barking up the RIGHT tree.

Was she on antibiotics when she was sick?

[skikat]

  Celena said:

I am listening in on this thread. i am very interested in PST issues because my DDs both seem to react to salicylates, amines, and glutamate.

To throw in my two bits, as far as i know the only good test to check for sensitivity is an elimination and challenge of the particular foods.

if anyone wants a LONG and pretty scientific look at the PST issue there is an article linked on Danasview.net. you would have to search under phenol to find it. the article talks about how an inability to process phenols will cause leaky gut issues. and that would def lead (like celiacs) to malabsorption, multiple food allergies, and eventually malnutrition. That said, i have also read that the reverse is true...that leaky gut (from celiacs or whatever) can cause phenol issues. so perhaps it depends on the root cause of everything...?

if anyone has any good links about the issue please share.

So here is my take on a possible connection between gluten and phenol problems. my DD is def sensitive to glutamate. and gluten grains are crammed full of incredibly high levels of GA (glutamic acid or free glutamate; an exitatory amino acid). so it got me to wondering whether people that have behaviour and cognitive changes from gluten might actually be sensitive to the high levels of GA. the reason i came to this idea is because my DD seems to react even worse to oats as she does to true gluten grains. and i reasoned that being that oats have less gluten in them that perhaps she was reacting to some other compound that is found in both gluten grains and oats. well...GA and aspartic acid (another exitatory amino acid and also part of aspartame)

are both very high in oats and gluten grains.

anywho....if anyone can add to this or make any sense of it i would be very grateful

[skikat]

WOW! This is fascinating stuff...and so complex. Thank you for your input. No wonder docs don't know anything about this, because they obviously do not have the time to invest in this up to date research....yikes! I am grateful for your knowledge and sharing your experience.

[skikat]

  keepinthefaith said:

I doubt your doc would be up on this stuff, by the way. Most of the garden variety MDs are not, sadly.

I have some links of stuff you could print out, and lots more info on this stuff. W/ behavioral things like your daughter has, it sounds like you are barking up the RIGHT tree.

Was she on antibiotics when she was sick?

[skikat]

Yes- first she was on a "z-pac" that didn't work on her congestion in her chest....then when it progressed to pneumonia they put her on a 2-week heavy duty anti-biotic. In hind-site, I wish I had known about using an anti-fungal then. It is my understanding, that if you have "leaky-gut" for whatever reason, the bad yeast can have overgrowth and toxins go into the bloodstream when on antibiotics. This is a whole other issue I guess. Thank you so much for all your help!

[keepinthefaith]

I am not a doc, but I do have experience w/ a child who had serious illnesses as a toddler, and multiple rounds of antibiotics, with resulting behavioral changes.

We did end up treating for yeast infection for a while, and for us, a lot of the yeast symptoms, which we did have success getting rid of, were similar to later phenol issues. When I got proficient at figuring out what was what, there were subtle behavioral differences between the two reactions, so I am wondering if you don't have a yeast thing going on. For my kid, yeast was spacey, strange repeating behaviors ( stims), bed wetting, sugar cravings, bowel changes sometimes, and very low tolerance to frustration. Phenol was similar, but with hyperactivity and a drugged-like state, staggered around, deteriorated cognitively ( think about trying to do homework after drinking four beers!) plus cheek flushing and other temporary skin changes, plus chronic dark circles. Phenol reactions went away fairly quickly, while yeast behaviors lasted until we treated the yeast.

Have you considered yeast?

I know if you are getting used to gluten-free, you may not want to deal with another dietary thing, but it is largely dietary, and for us, worked very well.

I would second the www.danasview.net info. I know it is mostly for autism, but just root around for the dietary stuff and apply info logically to your situation. It is a wealth of information.

Does your child have signs of autism spectrum disorder, by the way?

[Rachel--24]

  Celena said:

if anyone wants a LONG and pretty scientific look at the PST issue there is an article linked on Danasview.net. you would have to search under phenol to find it. the article talks about how an inability to process phenols will cause leaky gut issues. and that would def lead (like celiacs) to malabsorption, multiple food allergies, and eventually malnutrition. That said, i have also read that the reverse is true...that leaky gut (from celiacs or whatever) can cause phenol issues. so perhaps it depends on the root cause of everything...?

In my opinion when all of these issues are present it is most often mercury at the root cause of everything.

I have been dealing with most of the same issues seen in Autism for 5 years now. I cant tolerate phenols....I've been avoiding salicylates, amines, glutamates, gluten, casein, soy, high sulfur foods, high oxalate foods, sugar, molds, etc.

Basically I stick to only a few safe foods because everything else causes problems...physical symptoms, behavioral changes, brainfog, etc.

Prior to dietary changes I was barely functioning, had very bad malabsorption issues, depression, crying spells, poor memory and a long list of additional symptoms. Following the diets I function very well and dont suffer too many symptoms...malabsorption is still an issue but not as severe. I've gained 15 lbs. back.

I have a major problem with yeast as well....this has improved but is still a problem to a lesser degree. At one time one of my practitioners considered me to be one of the worst she'd seen with regards to yeast.

All of this occurred after some dental work in which a couple of my amalgams were drilled out and replaced. A few years prior I had 2 vaccines containing thimerosal. My mom also had 11 fillings while pregnant with me.

I had no obvious symptoms and was very healthy up until the dental work tipped the scales. About 3 months after the dental work I was no longer able to work. It took me about a year to make a connection between my symptoms and the dental work. Then another 3 years to have all kinds of other things ruled out and to finally get sick of being treated horribly by conventional Dr.'s. Mainstream doctors simply know nothing about these issues.

The past year I've worked with Dr.'s who specialize in heavy metal toxicity and ASD's....as well as other chronic conditions involving toxicity.

I've done mostly Biomedical treatments to correct imbalances, strengthen my immune system, treat infections, correct disturbances in pathway function (particularly sulfation pathway), promote detoxification, etc. I finally started chelation last month.

For 31 years I had no problems with any foods or chemicals...I never suffered allergies or any chronic symptoms. I ate whatever I wanted. After the dental work the yeast became a huge issue...leaky gut and all of the intolerances as well as multiple chemical sensitivities followed.

I only had alternative testing (different methods) to try to determine how much mercury was playing a role. Every test showed it to be a problem. Hair analysis did not show elevated mercury but instead showed very elevated calcium and most essential minerals out of whack. This is typical of mercury toxicity in a person who's body is not excreting very well....or when all mercury is stored away in the body. It will not show up in hair.

I was not given a chelator to access metals in a provoked urine challenge until last month when my Dr. felt I was ready to handle it. I was given the smallest dose available....only 1/5th of a full dose. With that tiny dose I excreted 9 toxic metals....with mercury being the second highest. Needless to say everyone who has worked with me the past year is very excited to see me excreting mercury so well. Its better than what anyone had anticipated for me.

There is no way to determine the total body burden...based on their experience with these tests they estimate my body burden to be very high. They expect ALOT more mercury will be coming out as we continue my treatments.

I was told from the start that the intolerances were a direct result of toxicity and most likely mercury's interference with enzymes and normal metabolic processes in the body. In my case every body system has been affected. Every Dr. has said that once the mercury is cleared out my body will function as it once did.

I am very optimistic about these food intolerances clearing up as I proceed with the chelation treatments. The yeast should also clear up as the mercury burden is reduced. The yeast is directly linked to mercury...they go hand in hand.

I still have to work on correcting dysbiosis and healing my gut.

Mercury is known to be capable of blocking any enzyme in the body....even in small amounts. The DPPIV enzyme is particularly sensitive to mercury. This is the enzyme necessary for the digestion of gluten and casein.

I do not think its only the extreme cases and those on the Spectrum who are having problems related to mercury exposure from dental amalgam and vaccines.

  Quote

Mercury is involved in defeating so many pathways. Mercury may lead to the problems with phenol intolerance too. The mercury disrupts the cysteine pathway, so sulfate is limited and is not supplied for detoxing the phenol compounds (or other compounds).

Open Original Shared Link

  Quote

Enzymes are proteins, and like all proteins they consist of chains of amino acids. These chains have to be faulted in a specific way to give the enzyme its activity. In many enzymes, the structure of the enzyme is ensured by cross-bonding of the amino-acid chains. These cross-bonds consist of double sulfur bonds.

Sulfur-bridges are covalent S-S bonds between two cysteine amino acids, which tend to be quite strong. These sulfur bonds are damaged when poisonous substances that are not naturally present have been added to the local environment. Mercury binds to the -SH (sulfhydryl) groups, resulting in inactivation of sulfur and blocking of enzyme functions while producing sulfur metabolites with high toxicity that the body has difficulty dealing with.

Sulfur is essential in enzymes, hormones, nerve tissue, and red blood cells. These sulfur bonds are crucial to human biology.

Mercury is the most potent enzyme inhibitor that exists; it is in a class of its own and well deserves its title as the most toxic non-radioactive element.

It is because mercury and lead attach themselves at these highly vulnerable junctures of proteins that they find their great capacity to provoke biochemical shifts and then morphological changes in the body.

Transsulfuration pathways in the body are fundamental for life. When mercury blocks thiol groups cellular proteins lose their reactive properties, lose their ability to carry out their routine function.

Open Original Shared Link

  Quote

It is quite clear that enough mercury will inactivate any enzyme or process which depends on sulfhydryl groups for its function, e.g. the energy production in the cell.

Open Original Shared Link

I do have obvious worsening of leaky gut/malabsorption issues when consuming phenols or other food chemicals which my body is unable to break down. I think someone asked about dark circles and pale skin with phenols....I do get those symptoms as well as weight loss and alot of other problems....including increased sensitivity to chemicals and environmental allergens.

I dont believe my symptoms are only brought on by phenols though....as I do have alot of other intolerances. Its not always easy for me to link specific reactions to a specific food. Most of the foods can fall into more than one category....some foods are high amine, high salicylate and also high oxalate. It becomes difficult to figure out what is causing the problem. For me it seems like all of the chemical groups cause problems.

Food dyes (esp. red dye 40) and other synthetic chemicals are more obvious.