Many Doctors Are Trained By Big Pharma

[Jestgar]

  mayfaire said:

I wonder why a moderator (whom I thought was on the boards to check for obscenities) would have a quote like this on the bottom of his profile? I thought this forum was for people who don't feel well, that kind of quote is hostile. I don't think people trying to get well need hostility, IMHO.

I don't understand your point. That quote, to me, suggests that people should fully consider their positions before speaking up. Are they only criticizing and complaining? Or do they have something to offer?

[jerseyangel]

  mayfaire said:

I wonder why a moderator (whom I thought was on the boards to check for obscenities) would have a quote like this on the bottom of his profile? I thought this forum was for people who don't feel well, that kind of quote is hostile. I don't think people trying to get well need hostility, IMHO.

Moderators on this board do a heck of a lot more than check for obscenities. As for the quote in question being hostile, well I just don't see it. YMMV

The point is, and I agree, that this discussion has become nothing more than a bickering match that is not in any way productive to the board. At this point, if the discussion is to continue, I would suggest taking it to PM.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

  Jestgar said:

I don't understand your point. That quote, to me, suggests that people should fully consider their positions before speaking up. Are they only criticizing and complaining? Or do they have something to offer?

I do understand Mayfaire's point. I think that the quote strongly implies that people who criticize and complain are fools.

On this board, is there a clear line past which we are not allowed to disagree, argue, and yes, sometimes argue quite heatedly? And are we also prohibited from criticizing and complaining?

Even if someone who criticizes and complains has no solution to offer, it seems to me that there is merit in their criticizing and complaining on this board, as perhaps someone else (or many someone elses!) could offer a solution.

[JNBunnie1]

  jerseyangel said:

Moderators on this board do a heck of a lot more than check for obscenities. As for the quote in question being hostile, well I just don't see it. YMMV

The point is, and I agree, that this discussion has become nothing more than a bickering match that is not in any way productive to the board. At this point, if the discussion is to continue, I would suggest taking it to PM.

Hey, I like arguing!!! Who says we gotta be productive all the time?

Oh, what's YMMV?

[purple]

  JNBunnie1 said:

Hey, I like arguing!!! Who says we gotta be productive all the time?

Oh, what's YMMV?

1. Agree...b/c people like me, that are trying to learn, learn alot from all your info and arguments. I like to research what you guys are talking/arguing about. I think its very productive unless someone is hurt or banned. Debates keep you thinking instead of having a closed mind (in some people anyway). Trial and error are the means to a solution.

2. Agree, what is YMMV?

3. JNBunnie1...you are so funny!

[psawyer]

YMMV? Your mileage may vary.

[mamabear]

I think we are way off topic now, but here goes.

Seems like there is a lot more attention given to all our negativity, rather than to a positive movement to solutions. There is a syndrome called HRC or "help---reject--complain". Someone calls for help;rejects the help and then complained they didn't get help. Of course that's a presumption that the help was what was needed. I'd like to propose a new syndrome called CRC. Complain---reject--complain some more.

Several days ago I posted about a very positive post about a current medical article directed towards PCP's. There were a 100 or so views, but very few responses. Does good news not carry any weight? Have we turned into a mini version of the 6 o' clock news?? Are we turning into a group of "Debbie Downers"?

I well understand the need to rant about medical mistakes/misdiagnoses and disappointments, but the tendency to bold highlight the misery needs some help!

[jerseyangel]

  JNBunnie1 said:

Hey, I like arguing!!!

Board rule #1--

Do not be abusive or otherwise out of line towards other board members. Show respect for each board member, no matter what you think of their views. This is not a place to quarrel.

  psawyer said:

YMMV? Your mileage may vary.

Thank you.

  mamabear said:

I think we are way off topic now, but here goes.

Seems like there is a lot more attention given to all our negativity, rather than to a positive movement to solutions. There is a syndrome called HRC or "help---reject--complain". Someone calls for help;rejects the help and then complained they didn't get help. Of course that's a presumption that the help was what was needed. I'd like to propose a new syndrome called CRC. Complain---reject--complain some more.

Several days ago I posted about a very positive post about a current medical article directed towards PCP's. There were a 100 or so views, but very few responses. Does good news not carry any weight? Have we turned into a mini version of the 6 o' clock news?? Are we turning into a group of "Debbie Downers"?

I well understand the need to rant about medical mistakes/misdiagnoses and disappointments, but the tendency to bold highlight the misery needs some help!

Well said!

[Crystal Brown]

  mamabear said:

I think we are way off topic now, but here goes.

Seems like there is a lot more attention given to all our negativity, rather than to a positive movement to solutions. There is a syndrome called HRC or "help---reject--complain". Someone calls for help;rejects the help and then complained they didn't get help. Of course that's a presumption that the help was what was needed. I'd like to propose a new syndrome called CRC. Complain---reject--complain some more.

Several days ago I posted about a very positive post about a current medical article directed towards PCP's. There were a 100 or so views, but very few responses. Does good news not carry any weight? Have we turned into a mini version of the 6 o' clock news?? Are we turning into a group of "Debbie Downers"?

I well understand the need to rant about medical mistakes/misdiagnoses and disappointments, but the tendency to bold highlight the misery needs some help!

Hey, I enjoyed that article and replied to it... I like to call it the "smack down on the ignorant doctor community article".. I also enjoyed all the abbreviations and acronyms, but that's because I'm weird.

Just going to throw something out there, real quick..

I've had a million some odd doctors, bouncing around till I found the right ones. I noticed something that all of them have in common, they are human and make mistakes. Don't get me wrong, there are a couple that I would like to see working at WalMart instead of being an Orthopedic surgeon, gastroenterolist and so forth, but the general consensus has been they are all human. They see thousands of people, they may or may not remember you, they may or may not know how to diagnose you - but the important part is for you to know when to say no. Once you say no, then you can move on and continue the search to find the doctor that doesn't prescribe pills, but tries to find the root of the problem instead. You are your own advocate.

As I say this, I do know how hard it is for some to move on. Moving on means breaking ties, maybe even breaking sacred code of honoring the medical community, but a person has to decide if that is worth their well-being.

I did not read this entire thread, so I do not know what all has taken place. I just wanted to share what I found to help me over the years. I could have given up so many times, I could have held grudges and blamed all the doctors that did me wrong (trust me, there were plenty) - but I wouldn't be here today. I would be dead. Now, me being six-feet-under for some people would probably be a party in itself (because I know I can be a pain, sometimes) - but I would have missed out on so much, plus I would have died a negative, bitter and angry person.. Not quite how I intend on leaving this world.

Okay, I get off my soap box now. I hope everyone can come to some sort of agreement. All of you provide such helpful advice and I thank each one of you for your suggestions and help over the last year.

Thanks

[Mtndog]

  Zella CE said:

Hey, I enjoyed that article and replied to it... I like to call it the "smack down on the ignorant doctor community article".. I also enjoyed all the abbreviations and acronyms, but that's because I'm weird.

Just going to throw something out there, real quick..

I've had a million some odd doctors, bouncing around till I found the right ones. I noticed something that all of them have in common, they are human and make mistakes....... You are your own advocate.

Speaking as a board member, Amen to that Zella! My best friend from childhood is a doctor and she is sick- absolutely forbidden in the medical community!! She's going throgh chemo for ovarian cancer, she's 41 years old, has two young children- she's human.

If you don't like the answers you are getting, then continue to search until you feel comfortable with a doctor who will work WITH you. They're out there- I've got a primary, a GI, and three other specialists that all work WITH me. But I had to find them! If I had stuck with my original doctor, I'd probably be dead now.

I think that mamabear made an excellent point about the CRC theory. Complain, people give suggestions and other viewpoints, they're rejected and the complaining continues. Fruitless really.

Speaking as a moderator, it is clearly time to move on!

[psawyer]

I'm confused. According to mayfaire, this quotation is "hostile":

  Quote

"Any fool can can criticize, condemn, and complain--and most fools do." ~ Andrew Carnegie

But, I suppose, this one is not?

  mayfaire said:

"Doctors are just the same as lawyers; the only difference is that lawyers merely rob you, whereas doctors rob you and kill you too." Chekhov.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

  psawyer said:

I'm confused. According to mayfaire, this quotation is "hostile":

But, I suppose, this one is not?

I think both quotes have some basis in fact, and also carry at least some connotation of hostility.

But the "fools" quote has some direct bearing on many of us here on this board. Most of us have complained, criticized, and (gasp!) even whined. Sometimes it's just to vent; sometimes it's a way to look for help and suggestions. Sometimes, I think many of us simply need to be heard, after decades of NOT being heard by doctors, families, colleagues, etc. Reading the "fools" quote certainly feels like an undeserved slap in the face to me.

By contrast, Mayfaire's quote, while unquestionably a slap in the face to doctors, is not (to my point of view) hostile to most people here, as most people here have suffered as a direct result of misdiagnosis/wrong information by said doctors.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

  Mtndog said:

Speaking as a board member, Amen to that Zella! My best friend from childhood is a doctor and she is sick- absolutely forbidden in the medical community!! She's going throgh chemo for ovarian cancer, she's 41 years old, has two young children- she's human.

If you don't like the answers you are getting, then continue to search until you feel comfortable with a doctor who will work WITH you. They're out there- I've got a primary, a GI, and three other specialists that all work WITH me. But I had to find them! If I had stuck with my original doctor, I'd probably be dead now.

I think that mamabear made an excellent point about the CRC theory. Complain, people give suggestions and other viewpoints, they're rejected and the complaining continues. Fruitless really.

Speaking as a moderator, it is clearly time to move on!

First of all, I'm sorry about your friend, and am sending prayers for her recovery.

Second of all, that picture of you is ADORABLE.

Thirdly, it's terribly expensive and time-consuming to search for doctors. Perhaps we could convince Scott to fine-tune things so that we could have an organized way (like, by City/State!) to search for doctors, recommend doctors, or even post our good/bad/hell-on-earth experiences with doctors so that it's easier for the next wave of newbies? Or for oldies who just can't take it any more with their current idiot!

Finally, I disagree about the CRC being applicable here. It's NOT fruitless if even one person learns something. There doesn't have to be an on-thread resolution to an argument for others to read, decide to investigate further on their own, and learn. I think plenty of interesting and valid points were made on both sides. I understand that you want to avoid serious fights on here, but I really think that calling for people to "move on" is unwarranted and over-controlling. As far as I can see, every poster on this thread has tried very hard to keep things in check--even sbj !

No harm, no foul.

[Jestgar]

  Fiddle-Faddle said:

I do understand Mayfaire's point. I think that the quote strongly implies that people who criticize and complain are fools.

  Fiddle-Faddle said:

But the "fools" quote has some direct bearing on many of us here on this board. Most of us have complained, criticized, and (gasp!) even whined. Sometimes it's just to vent; sometimes it's a way to look for help and suggestions. Sometimes, I think many of us simply need to be heard, after decades of NOT being heard by doctors, families, colleagues, etc. Reading the "fools" quote certainly feels like an undeserved slap in the face to me.

I see why I don't find that quote offensive. If I'm going to engage in something as pointless as complaining, without seeking a solution, then I accept that I am acting the fool. Others see it as a righteous expression of their feelings.

And I see why the other quote was acceptable to some:

  Quote

By contrast, Mayfaire's quote, while unquestionably a slap in the face to doctors, is not (to my point of view) hostile to most people here, as most people here have suffered as a direct result of misdiagnosis/wrong information by said doctors.

If it isn't me they're dishing dirt about, then it's ok????

Sorry, but I try to hold myself to higher standards. An insult is still an insult, even if the party to whom it's directed at isn't there.

  Quote

Even if someone who criticizes and complains has no solution to offer, it seems to me that there is merit in their criticizing and complaining on this board, as perhaps someone else (or many someone elses!) could offer a solution.

The appropriate response to this has already been posted.

  mamabear said:

Seems like there is a lot more attention given to all our negativity, rather than to a positive movement to solutions. There is a syndrome called HRC or "help---reject--complain". Someone calls for help;rejects the help and then complained they didn't get help. Of course that's a presumption that the help was what was needed. I'd like to propose a new syndrome called CRC. Complain---reject--complain some more.

[JNBunnie1]

  jerseyangel said:

Board rule #1--

Do not be abusive or otherwise out of line towards other board members. Show respect for each board member, no matter what you think of their views. This is not a place to quarrel.

Thank you.

Well said!

Open Original Shared Link

Arguing can be respectful.

[Mtndog]

  Fiddle-Faddle said:

Finally, I disagree about the CRC being applicable here. It's NOT fruitless if even one person learns something. There doesn't have to be an on-thread resolution to an argument for others to read, decide to investigate further on their own, and learn. I think plenty of interesting and valid points were made on both sides. I understand that you want to avoid serious fights on here, but I really think that calling for people to "move on" is unwarranted and over-controlling. As far as I can see, every poster on this thread has tried very hard to keep things in check--even sbj !

No harm, no foul.

Thanks (about my friend and the picture).

Moving on doesn't mean the thread has to end. It just means that insulting, trolling and arguing should stop. You absolutely can respectfully disgaree. And critique. And analyze. In fact- being critical does not mean being negative, it means looking at what works and what doesn't. These are ALL good things when done respectfully.

As far as Scott starting another section- there is one: Doctors! I have posted both my good and bad experiences there along with information about how to find the doctor.

[jerseyangel]

  JNBunnie1 said:

Open Original Shared Link

Arguing can be respectful.

Yes, it certainly can, only I didn't see it here as this thread went on.

Knock yourselves out--I'm done here.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

  Jestgar said:

I see why I don't find that quote offensive. If I'm going to engage in something as pointless as complaining, without seeking a solution, then I accept that I am acting the fool. Others see it as a righteous expression of their feelings.

Aren't you jumping to conclusions? You assume firstly that others might not be actively seeking a solution, first of all, and secondly, you assume that venting is pointless.

As I said before, venting --or complaining-- is not pointless, even without taking into consideration that someone reading the thread might learn something, either from the vent or from any suggestions that might follow it. If it helps someone to complain about an injustice, even if they've given up hope that anything might help them, then I don't think you have the right to call it pointless.

And who are you to judge how foolish someone is to express their feelings, on this board of all places? Are condescending, judgmental comments appropriate coming from a moderator?

  Jestgar said:

And I see why the other quote was acceptable to some:

If it isn't me they're dishing dirt about, then it's ok????

I never said nor implied that. As I said, PEOPLE SUFFERED as a direct result of going to and trusting their doctors. I'm sure we all know someone who died due to a medical error. On this board, where so many have lost years of health, I don't consider that quote to be "dishing dirt." It's not kind and sweet; but it has enough basis in truth to be grimly funny (like most sarcasm).

  Jestgar said:

Sorry, but I try to hold myself to higher standards. An insult is still an insult, even if the party to whom it's directed at isn't there.

But you have been equally insulting, if not more so. Even saying that you hold yourself to higher standards is a kind of reverse name-calling (what, we have lower standards than you? Who is the judge of these "standards?").

You have, in effect, called people who complain without seeking a solution, fools. You wrote, "If I'm going to engage in something as pointless as complaining, without seeking a solution, then I accept that I am acting the fool."

How is this kind of judgmental, condescending comment helpful to anyone? Are we all supposed to change who we are, based on our backgrounds and our experience, to try to be like you??? WHY?

[Fiddle-Faddle]

  Mtndog said:

As far as Scott starting another section- there is one: Doctors! I have posted both my good and bad experiences there along with information about how to find the doctor.

What I meant was a somewhat more organized, interactive section on doctors, where you could perhaps click on a city, then on a specialty (GI, endocrinologist, dermatologist, etc.) and find names of doctors, and if you clicked on those, you could find comments. Maybe there could also be a section rating the doctors by number of positive vs negative comments.

I suppose you could do a search by city and specialty, except that spelling errors are common for both cities and specialties, which adds some difficulty.

[Jestgar]

  Fiddle-Faddle said:

But you have been equally insulting, if not more so. Even saying that you hold yourself to higher standards is a kind of reverse name-calling (what, we have lower standards than you? Who is the judge of these "standards?").

You have, in effect, called people who complain without seeking a solution, fools. You wrote, "If I'm going to engage in something as pointless as complaining, without seeking a solution, then I accept that I am acting the fool."

How is this kind of judgmental, condescending comment helpful to anyone? Are we all supposed to change who we are, based on our backgrounds and our experience, to try to be like you??? WHY?

Kindly note that my comments were a reflection of my emotional responses to comments and quotes, and did not in any way interpret anyone else's response. If you choose to put some other interpretation on them, that is your prerogative, but I would thank you not to directly attempt to insult me while you are doing it.