Looking For Help

[Mike]

Looking for advice on curing consistent "falling" of my loaves when I take them out of the oven.

[mommida]

Have you tried turning the loaf pan on its side when you take it out of the oven to cool?

[Mike]

I've had limited succes with that. They're better but the darn things will draw in on the bottom, instead of collapsing on top, even laying on their side. I'm trying to cut down on the xanthan because I know it causes shrinkage. Have you, or anyone been trying pectin, whey, gelatin, etc. in lieu of xanthan, or guar, and had luck with them?

[love2travel]

I've had limited succes with that. They're better but the darn things will draw in on the bottom, instead of collapsing on top, even laying on their side. I'm trying to cut down on the xanthan because I know it causes shrinkage. Have you, or anyone been trying pectin, whey, gelatin, etc. in lieu of xanthan, or guar, and had luck with them?

I use some psyllium fibre and gelatin in my bread and have not had any loaves fall. Are you using the proper size of pan? Some recipes call for 8x4, some 9x4. That one inch makes a big difference. Do you bake the bread to an internal temperature of about 190-200?

[Mike]

I have heard of psyllium fiber, but didn't know it was a baking ingredient. Are you using no xanthan, or guar gum? I do bake to 200. Pretty careful about that. I'll have to check the pan size closer, but I'm doubling the recipe, and one or the other is always a tad larger. Seems like one would work regardless.

[mommida]

I haven't been making bread since we can't use eggs anymore.

When you mix the "batter" do mix until the the beater leaves a groove? It can be the sign that the dough can hold it's own shape.

Let me know how the gelatin or fiber works out.

[ciamarie]

I've had the same issue, though mine falls down while it's baking. The one time it didn't was when I used a mini-loaf pan. They were perfect little loaves. I use guar gum, and I've had them collapse both with and without psyllium, but I've not mixed the batter for a very long time. I may have to try that, though I don't have a stand mixer, but a hand-held kitchen aid one. I recently started using sorghum flour instead of rice flour, still collapses in the middle, but not by as much I think.

[Mike]

Turns out my pans are 8.5"! Not 8, or 9, as is usual. Figures. I've had them fall while baking also, up to, and including, one that literally collapsed to almost flat. I've been trying combinations with tapioca flour, and glutinous rice flour, (Yes it really does say that on the bag!), and like the texture. A little spongy, but I think the rice flour definitely has a binding effect similar to wheat gluten. Debating whether to buy some 8" pans. Does psyllium have an effect on flavor?

[lizard00]

Mommida-- have you tried olive oil instead of the eggs? I do it all the time for my vegan or egg-allergic people.

To the OP- my first inclination is too much moisture. Finding the right amount of liquid to put in is a fine balance, and I do mean fine. I have recently cut back by 1/2 t of xanthan in my bread, and there is no appreciable difference as to it's stability. But, when there's too much liquid in it, I can actually hear it falling.

[lizard00]

I've had the same issue, though mine falls down while it's baking. The one time it didn't was when I used a mini-loaf pan. They were perfect little loaves. I use guar gum, and I've had them collapse both with and without psyllium, but I've not mixed the batter for a very long time. I may have to try that, though I don't have a stand mixer, but a hand-held kitchen aid one. I recently started using sorghum flour instead of rice flour, still collapses in the middle, but not by as much I think.

Try doing half guar, half gelatin. Guar is not as 'strong' for lack of a better word. It's tough to make a bread with it. Check you water levels, too.

[Takala]

No, you won't taste the psyllium very much, but the mouth texture will be a bit different. It will stiffen up the loaf a bit, make it seem drier. You have to pre soak it first in a little bit of water, then add it to the recipe.

What recipe are you using for this falling bread ? Do you have a link ? Is it a yeast risen recipe ? Some recipes just don't work well because the author "forgot" something in the technique or ingredients. I tend to use baking soda and apple cider vinegar leavening, instead, and small pans, because at least I know how it will react.

True story, funny. One gluten free blogger came up with a bread recipe that worked if you tweaked it, and it had to be tweaked for a lot of people because of the slight vagueness of the ingredients, and how everybody is allergic to one thing or the other. But it was a popular recipe, and it made the rounds. Another gluten free blogger took it, modified it to her particular needs, and posted it on her blog.... and it fell. And it fell. And it fell.... The comments were all puzzled as dozens of people tried to make this thing work. They did this, they did that, the author did this, did that... I read thru it, again, thought, that sure sounds like "recipe A" and compared them side by side, and lo and behold, blogger B had copped it, changed one flour, used an egg substitute, and used about 3/4 of a cup LESS FLOUR while keeping the liquid volume the same. Otherwise, there it was. And NOBODY was just decreasing the amount of liquid to repair it. They kept baking it at different temperatures for different times or blaming the yeast !

This is when I stopped measuring the amount of liquid I add to any sort of "bread," and just go by what it looks like when I add it slowly and stir. I have a general idea, but I never dump the higher end amount in all at once. Each kind of flour, and flour mixture behaves differently. If you read the blog the Gluten Free Girl and the Chef, she says how there needs to be a proportion of starches to proteins to get the best result.

[sa1937]

I've had the same problem with bread caving in at the sides and/or bottom. I think it's the amount of liquid. Here's the recipe I've had a problem with. Open Original Shared Link from Jules Shepard's blog. I've pretty well solved that problem by cutting back the liquid by a couple of tablespoons (in my case ginger ale as I doubt I'd find gluten-free beer anywhere around here). Last time I made it, I added 2 tbsp. almond meal and 2 tbsp. potato flour figuring it would slurp up any excess moisture. I think I also added 2 tbsp. of flaxseed meal.

It also depends on the size of the pan. I like the 9x4x4" USA pan, which has higher sides than most bread pans. If I make hamburger buns, the smaller size seems to work well. It's all such a puzzle.

Mike, I'd like to know what recipe you're using, too. I'm sure someone far more skilled than me can give you some suggestions.

One cookbook I like is Gluten-Free Baking Classics by Annalise Roberts. I don't think I've ever had her bread collapse. She uses a minimum of xanthan gum and tends to use a tsp. of gelatin in some of her bread recipes.

[lpellegr]

Bread caving in is a very common problem. Try: add less liquid than the recipe calls for. Lower the oven temperature by 25 - 50, e.g. bake at 375 instead of 400. When the timer goes off, check the top - if it sinks in easily when you tap it, give it another 5 minutes, and another 5 if necessary until the top feels firm.

[sa1937]

A digital instant read thermometer is helpful, too. I usually let my bread bake until it at least reaches an internal temp of 208

[RiceGuy]

Since gelatin melts at a fairly low temp, I doubt it'd work as a binder such as guar gum or xanthan. I've tried agar agar, which has a higher melting point than gelatin, and it doesn't act as a binder. It does, however, add some moisture, so I think that's what the gelatin in gluten-free bread recipes is actually doing.

I've had success with both guar gum and xanthan, but NOT with the same blend of flours. I detailed some basic characteristics of the two here. Adding ground psyllium husk can help prevent collapsing, but it can also limit the amount of possible rise. It depends on various factors, such as the flours your use and the amount of water. So you may need to commence baking at a different point in the rise. I've never pre-soaked the psyllium, but I suppose the mixing time might be a factor there, as would the amount of water.

As others have suggested, too much water might lead to collapsing, or the bottom pulling in. Too little water will limit the maximum rise. I agree that it is a delicate balance. The specific flours and their ratios do have an effect as well. And yes, the size of the pan does matter, if for no other reason than that a smaller pan will mean less allowable rise.

The amount of rise allowed is extremely important. Too much will result in collapse. I judge the rise not by comparing the rising dough to the hight of the pan (which will vary depending on your pan), but to the original height before any rise takes place. More specifically, the height of the dry ingredients. The rise you allow is dependent on the recipe too of course. Some recipes can be risen more than others.

Also, when it comes to delicate breads, it can help to leave the bread in the oven once it is done, with the door either closed or only open just a tad. Think delicate cake - cooling slowly helps it stay up.

As for eggs, I've never baked gluten-free bread with eggs nor egg replacer, so I have to believe the requirement is recipe-dependent.

Lastly, if the recipe calls for oil, try reducing it, or leaving it out altogether. Especially if the original recipe calls for eggs, but you're using egg replacer instead. In my experience, oil will defeat the binding properties of the dough, and it will collapse if there's too much oil, or not enough of an ingredient which makes the addition of oil possible, such as eggs.

[xjrosie]

This might seem like a silly suggestion this far in, but what temperature are the ingredients when you mix them?

I have found - and this applies to everything gluten or gluten-free - that when all the ingredients are room temperature when you start to make it, the bread comes out better.

Take the eggs and all your flours out of the fridge/freezer about two hours before you start to make the bread.