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Gemini

There's that inflammation issue again!

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30 minutes ago, Gemini said:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/09/27/new-drug-beats-heart-disease-by-reducing-inflammation.html

More proof that inflammation is the key to so many diseases.  Systemic inflammation is like a disease magnet! 

Sounds promising, except for this part. I wonder how reducing inflammation increases infections? Or rather, fatal infections?

In this study, the reduction in cancer deaths was balanced out by an increase in fatal infections among those taking Canakinumab

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Right. Look up the drug. It's an immunosuppressant (the article doesn't say that, FDA info does).  The risk for immonosuppressants is greater likelyhood of an infection your body can't fight. 

Of course, the interesting thing is that no one mentions the role of diet in inflammation. Drug money rules. 

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1 hour ago, Feeneyja said:

Right. Look up the drug. It's an immunosuppressant (the article doesn't say that, FDA info does).  The risk for immonosuppressants is greater likelyhood of an infection your body can't fight. 

Of course, the interesting thing is that no one mentions the role of diet in inflammation. Drug money rules. 

Yep, drug money rules.  The drug used, canakinumab, has been reserved for very sick people with fever syndromes or juvenile arthritis.  It does suppress your immune system.  In the study, inflammation was reduced, but people died from infection.  Not a good trade off.   Plus, this drug costs big big bucks.  

Best to stick to a healthy diet (stay away from bad fats, sugar and too much salt (think processed foods), eat less,  and exercise to reduce inflammation.   The good news that I think Gemini was pointing out is that reducing your cholesterol, which has long been the "bad guy" in heart disease, is not really the culprit.  It may be too much inflammation.  (Correct me if I am wrong, Gemini.)  My hubby's doctor keeps pushing statins and we decline for this very reason.  

I wonder what the statin manufacturers are going to do?  What about all the horrible side effects from statins?  

You can read more from the link below about the study from a different perspective.  You can see how journalists can pick and choose what they want you to know about a study.  

https://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21727888-it-does-point-right-direction-wonder-drug-heart-disease-isnt

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cyclinglady,

you are right to resist statins for your hubby.  I went from fatty liver to pre-diabetes taking statins and have managed as you say "eating to my meter" my blood sugar with good results every since.

Statins are especially bad/worse (or at least they admit for women) for women and they might be  the same for men if they studied "this safest of all drugs" for this condition/side effect of possibly increasing the (pre)diabetes it meant to stop by making the fatty liver better but people get diabetes at a higher rate when taking statins.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170315094520.htm

quoting

"UQ (University of Queensland) School of Public Health researcher Dr Mark Jones said women over 75 faced a 33 per cent higher chance of developing diabetes if they were taking statins.

The risk increased to over 50 per cent for women taking higher doses of statins."

I told my friend about this same issue  who went diabetic from taking stains and developed UC from taking metformin.

She has horrible diarrhea especially when she misses doses of metformin being diagnosed as UC instead of a side effect of this "most safe" of front line medicines for diabetes.

She developed diabetes after two years of taking statins.

Inflammation is a killer the problem is it is often from medicine meant (thought) to help often one thing while making some other condition worse like her GI problems.

posterboy,

 

 

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15 hours ago, cyclinglady said:

Yep, drug money rules.  The drug used, canakinumab, has been reserved for very sick people with fever syndromes or juvenile arthritis.  It does suppress your immune system.  In the study, inflammation was reduced, but people died from infection.  Not a good trade off.   Plus, this drug costs big big bucks.  

Best to stick to a healthy diet (stay away from bad fats, sugar and too much salt (think processed foods), eat less,  and exercise to reduce inflammation.   The good news that I think Gemini was pointing out is that reducing your cholesterol, which has long been the "bad guy" in heart disease, is not really the culprit.  It may be too much inflammation.  (Correct me if I am wrong, Gemini.)  My hubby's doctor keeps pushing statins and we decline for this very reason.  

I wonder what the statin manufacturers are going to do?  What about all the horrible side effects from statins?  

You can read more from the link below about the study from a different perspective.  You can see how journalists can pick and choose what they want you to know about a study.  

https://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21727888-it-does-point-right-direction-wonder-drug-heart-disease-isnt

Yes, the point I was trying to make was about inflammation being the root cause of many disease states and yes, diet is paramount above drugs in almost all cases.  Half of all people who have heart attacks do not have elevated cholesterol.  It just seems silly that the medical profession and so called journalists print these articles like they have just discovered the fountain of youth.  Ask anyone with AI diseases about inflammation and you'll learn that we already know this.  Look what happens to many with Celiac who go long undiagnosed......they end up with multiple AI diseases. 

Exercise and eating really healthy makes a HUGE difference.  My ANA didn't go from 1:2580 to 1:320 over 10 years from doing nothing.  That was the impact the gluten-free diet and gym work has done. Of course, I still will always have elevated numbers from having autoimmune disease but things are much better!

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Inflammation is the critical point, I think. I keep wondering if inflammation is stopped early enough in the disease process (pick any disease, really), if there can be complete recovery without drugs. In many ways, celiac disease is a great example of this. We know what causes the immune response and subsequent inflammation and look what happens when you remove it!  I also think of Dr. Wahls and her improvement in MS from a lifestyle the lowers inflammation and promotes cellular healing. 

My daughter is not positive for celiac, but she is clearly gluten intolerant. Her symptoms, while there are some GI, are mostly neurological.  Nerve pain, heaviness of limbs, tingling of extremities, balance problems, double vision.  We recently also removed dairy, eggs, and nightshades and the rash she has had is going away and the joint pain and stiffness she experienced is now gone. So is the lingering fatigue. It makes me wonder if she is early MS, but no tests to back it up. She is perfectly healthy at physicals and the neurologist I consulted didn't believe that food could cause her issues (he also questioned that there WERE any issues since she was asymptomatic by then.)

so I think about all of us with NCGS. Is it an inflammation problem that sets the stage for future autoimmune conditions?  

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1 hour ago, Feeneyja said:

 

My daughter is not positive for celiac, but she is clearly gluten intolerant. Her symptoms, while there are some GI, are mostly neurological.  Nerve pain, heaviness of limbs, tingling of extremities, balance problems, double vision.  We recently also removed dairy, eggs, and nightshades and the rash she has had is going away and the joint pain and stiffness she experienced is now gone. So is the lingering fatigue. It makes me wonder if she is early MS, but no tests to back it up. She is perfectly healthy at physicals and the neurologist I consulted didn't believe that food could cause her issues (he also questioned that there WERE any issues since she was asymptomatic by then.)

so I think about all of us with NCGS. Is it an inflammation problem that sets the stage for future autoimmune conditions?  

I was thought to have MS prediagnosis but a spinal tap ruled it out and I was told my brain lesions (UBO's) were normal. They aren't normal they are seen with celiac that is attacking the brain and nervous system. It sounds like your daughters presentation is about the same as mine was early on before the horrible daily and nightly gut wrenching D set in.  You mention a rash that is clearing. Perhaps DH? I think folks with DH and those with mostly neuro symptoms are more likely to have false negatives with blood tests. She may actually be celiac, not that it really matters since the treatment is the same. It sounds like you are doing a good job at helping her heal. She is young and being gluten free strictly should help lessen her chances of developing another AI problem down the road.

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2 hours ago, Feeneyja said:

Inflammation is the critical point, I think. I keep wondering if inflammation is stopped early enough in the disease process (pick any disease, really), if there can be complete recovery without drugs. In many ways, celiac disease is a great example of this. We know what causes the immune response and subsequent inflammation and look what happens when you remove it!  I also think of Dr. Wahls and her improvement in MS from a lifestyle the lowers inflammation and promotes cellular healing. 

My daughter is not positive for celiac, but she is clearly gluten intolerant. Her symptoms, while there are some GI, are mostly neurological.  Nerve pain, heaviness of limbs, tingling of extremities, balance problems, double vision.  We recently also removed dairy, eggs, and nightshades and the rash she has had is going away and the joint pain and stiffness she experienced is now gone. So is the lingering fatigue. It makes me wonder if she is early MS, but no tests to back it up. She is perfectly healthy at physicals and the neurologist I consulted didn't believe that food could cause her issues (he also questioned that there WERE any issues since she was asymptomatic by then.)

so I think about all of us with NCGS. Is it an inflammation problem that sets the stage for future autoimmune conditions?  

Until doctors recognize that food causes a lot of physical problems and disease, they won't be much help to anyone...except if you like being on 10 different meds.  Great post and I agree with what you have said!

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On 9/28/2017 at 12:12 PM, Feeneyja said:

Inflammation is the critical point, I think. I keep wondering if inflammation is stopped early enough in the disease process (pick any disease, really), if there can be complete recovery without drugs. In many ways, celiac disease is a great example of this. We know what causes the immune response and subsequent inflammation and look what happens when you remove it!  I also think of Dr. Wahls and her improvement in MS from a lifestyle the lowers inflammation and promotes cellular healing. 

My daughter is not positive for celiac, but she is clearly gluten intolerant. Her symptoms, while there are some GI, are mostly neurological.  Nerve pain, heaviness of limbs, tingling of extremities, balance problems, double vision.  We recently also removed dairy, eggs, and nightshades and the rash she has had is going away and the joint pain and stiffness she experienced is now gone. So is the lingering fatigue. It makes me wonder if she is early MS, but no tests to back it up. She is perfectly healthy at physicals and the neurologist I consulted didn't believe that food could cause her issues (he also questioned that there WERE any issues since she was asymptomatic by then.)

so I think about all of us with NCGS. Is it an inflammation problem that sets the stage for future autoimmune conditions?  

Feenyja,

Have you tried B-12 for the tingling in the extremities.

I used to have the same problem.

see this link "Multiple sclerosis and vitamin B12 metabolism."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1430153

but I found when I addressed my Vitamin(s) deficiencies my condition (nerve inflammation) got better and why I love Vitamin(s).  It is the natural way for us to manage stress which leads to inflammation . . . thus disease in time.

*** this in not medical advice but I found it helped my tingling (especially at night) when it would wake me from my sleep a classic sign of Pernicious Anemia.

the way I see it (my own opinion) if after taking a vitamin/mineral the condition that remains (if it remains) is the true disease.

For example Magnesium Citrate helped my fatigue to the point I no longer have Chronic Fatigue syndrome symptom's thus I deduce I had low Magnesium levels.

The same way B-12 helped my tingling (though I tested low for it) and was officially diagnosed for Pernicious Anemia but no longer have that diagnosis now that the symptom's have gone away.

And pernicious anemia if not properly diagnosed might could be considered MS in some patients.

I hope this is helpful.

2 Timothy 2: 7 “Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things”

posterboy,

 

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4 hours ago, Posterboy said:

but I found when I addressed my Vitamin(s) deficiencies my condition (nerve inflammation) got better and why I love Vitamin(s).  It is the natural way for us to manage stress which leads to inflammation . . . thus disease in time.

Posterboy, I’m currently interested in vitamin and mineral deficiencies and their impact on proper nerve function. So, if you don’t mind me asking: which vitamins or minerals helped you with the nerve inflammation?

You mentioned B12 and magnesium – is there anything else you found useful? Also, it would be great if you could say how exactly you were taking these vitamins or minerals, i.e. the dose, the time of the day, for how many weeks/months..

The reason I’m asking is that I don’t know much about supplements and how to use them properly - so that I don’t overdose or combine them in the wrong way, for instance. (I haven't had any blood tests to check for deficiencies.)  

E.g. I’m taking a very strong B-complex* now, there are 100 tablets, and I don’t know for how long I can use it safely.. 100 days in a row wouldn't be a good idea, right?

Thank you.

*B3 50mg, B5 25mg, B1 15mg, B2 15mg, B6 10mg, B7 500 micrograms.

4 hours ago, Posterboy said:

the way I see it (my own opinion) if after taking a vitamin/mineral the condition that remains (if it remains) is the true disease.

Exactly, I agree.

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2 hours ago, Gluten_free_01 said:

The reason I’m asking is that I don’t know much about supplements and how to use them properly - so that I don’t overdose or combine them in the wrong way, for instance. (I haven't had any blood tests to check for deficiencies.)  

E.g. I’m taking a very strong B-complex* now, there are 100 tablets, and I don’t know for how long I can use it safely.. 100 days in a row wouldn't be a good idea, right?

Thank you.

*B3 50mg, B5 25mg, B1 15mg, B2 15mg, B6 10mg, B7 500 micrograms.

 

The B vitamins are water soluable so your body will excrete anything you don't need. You can take the Stress level Bs as long as you feel you need them. However until your gut heals you won't be able to properly absorb and utilize the B12 from a tablet. Add in a Sublingual B12 daily. These are dissolved under your tongue and enter your bloodstream through the oral mucosa. Don't be scared off by the high mgs. Your body will get rid of any it doesn't need with no harm to any of your organs. I took high doses of the B's for many years. The B12 in particular because of severe neuro impact. Even before diagnosis it was helpful with the parathesias (tingling in extremeties).

I don't know a lot about magnesium but do know that large doses can cause loose stools.  We have some members much more knowledgeable on that one.

Lastly if you do intend to have a vitamin and mineral panel done do talk to your doctor as you will need to stop supplements for a bit to get an accurate blood level.

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6 hours ago, ravenwoodglass said:

The B vitamins are water soluable so your body will excrete anything you don't need. You can take the Stress level Bs as long as you feel you need them. However until your gut heals you won't be able to properly absorb and utilize the B12 from a tablet. Add in a Sublingual B12 daily. These are dissolved under your tongue and enter your bloodstream through the oral mucosa. Don't be scared off by the high mgs. Your body will get rid of any it doesn't need with no harm to any of your organs. I took high doses of the B's for many years. The B12 in particular because of severe neuro impact. Even before diagnosis it was helpful with the parathesias (tingling in extremeties).

Thank you, ravenwoodglass. I feel more calm after reading your reply :) My own experience with supplements is very limited, so seeing the high doses on the B-complex label freaked me out a bit.

I will definitely purchase the sublingual B12 next week. Another B vitamin that is not included in the B-complex is B9 (folate) so I guess I’ll get that as well.

6 hours ago, ravenwoodglass said:

I don't know a lot about magnesium but do know that large doses can cause loose stools.  We have some members much more knowledgeable on that one.

I’m taking a magn. lactate now, it’s 500mg magnesii lactas dihydricus per one tablet. The recommended daily dose is 2-3 per day. The producer doesn’t say how much elemental magn. there is. I’ve googled it and 12% seems to be the usual amount for magn. lactate – so it would be 60mg/tablet.  

Next time I’d like to buy magn.+zinc+calcium supplement instead of magn. alone.

6 hours ago, ravenwoodglass said:

Lastly if you do intend to have a vitamin and mineral panel done do talk to your doctor as you will need to stop supplements for a bit to get an accurate blood level.

Well, she wouldn’t listen to me unfortunately :( she’s the type of a doctor who prefers to give people a million drug prescriptions a year rather than discuss and test for deficiencies. Even if a person is underweight - she doesn't care. That’s why I have to research it myself. I do have an option to get the tests in a private lab though.

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On 9/30/2017 at 2:39 AM, Gluten_free_01 said:

Posterboy, I’m currently interested in vitamin and mineral deficiencies and their impact on proper nerve function. So, if you don’t mind me asking: which vitamins or minerals helped you with the nerve inflammation?

You mentioned B12 and magnesium – is there anything else you found useful? Also, it would be great if you could say how exactly you were taking these vitamins or minerals, i.e. the dose, the time of the day, for how many weeks/months..

The reason I’m asking is that I don’t know much about supplements and how to use them properly - so that I don’t overdose or combine them in the wrong way, for instance. (I haven't had any blood tests to check for deficiencies.)  

E.g. I’m taking a very strong B-complex* now, there are 100 tablets, and I don’t know for how long I can use it safely.. 100 days in a row wouldn't be a good idea, right?

Thank you.

*B3 50mg, B5 25mg, B1 15mg, B2 15mg, B6 10mg, B7 500 micrograms.

Exactly, I agree.

Gluten_free_01,

I have been out of pocket for a few days due to all my time being taken up doing some harvesting.

But I wanted to respond to your question.

For B-complex's it is not so much the amount b-50, b-100 etc as much as the frequency think with each meal or twice a day if that is not convenient.

see this link

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4772032/

entitled "B Vitamins and the Brain: Mechanisms, Dose and Efficacy—A Review".  Read it all (the links) when you get a chance.

see section 2.1. Brain Specific Roles of B Vitamins

quoting  section 2.1

"The brain is by far the most metabolically active organ in the body, representing only 2% of body weight but accounting for over 20% of the body’s total energy expenditure [38]. The B vitamins’ general metabolic functions, alongside their roles in neurochemical synthesis, may therefore be conceived as having a particular impact on brain function. Indeed, the importance of the B vitamins for brain function is illustrated by the fact that each vitamin is actively transported across the blood brain barrier and/or choroid plexus by dedicated transport mechanisms. Once in the brain, specific cellular uptake mechanisms dictate distribution, and, whilst the B vitamins all have high turnovers, ranging from 8% to 100% per day, their levels are tightly regulated by multiple homeostatic mechanisms in the brain [39,40]. This guarantees that brain concentrations remain comparatively high. For example, the concentration of methyltetrahydrofolate (the principal circulating form of folate) in the brain is four times that seen in plasma [39], whereas biotin and pantothenic acid exist in the brain at concentrations of up to 50 times that seen in plasma [41]."

The point I want you take out of this is the bold. B-Vitamins as ravenwoodglass mentioned are water soluble and as such we "leak" out or consume/use up them every day at a 100% rate.  Technically every 2 to 3 hours you can absorb more B-Vitamins and why it is best to take them with each meal to overcome a deficiency (if possible) if not twice a day will do.  Especially if you use up a lot of energy (have a lot o stress) in your life.

see also this link

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477807

entitled  "Vitamin supplementation for 1 year improves mood".

which is a little misleading if you don't read the whole abstract.

quoted here for context.

Vitamin supplementation for 1 year improves mood.

Benton D1, Haller J, Fordy J.

Author information

Abstract

"The possibility that the taking of vitamin supplements may influence mood was explored. One hundred and twenty-nine young healthy adults took either 10 times the recommended daily dose of 9 vitamins, or a placebo, under a double-blind procedure, for a year. Males taking the vitamins differed from those taking the placebo in that they reported themselves as feeling more 'agreeable' after 12 months. After 12 months the mood of females taking the vitamin supplement was significantly improved in that they felt more 'agreeable', more composed and reported better mental health. These changes in mood after a year occurred even though the blood status of 9 vitamins reached a plateau after 3 months: this improvement in mood was associated in particular with improved riboflavin and pyridoxine status. In females baseline thiamin status was associated with poor mood and an improvement in thiamin status after 3 months was associated with improved mood."

again see the bold.

Taking B-Vitamins improves mood. . . . in only 3 months time.

Coincidentally  That is the approximate time/length our body can store our B-Vitamin's mostly in the liver.

Notice though B-Vitamin levels peaked at 3 months (store in liver repleated) mood continue to improve for a year with supplementation meaning the body continued to benefit by B-Vitamin supplementation.

I also point to dr.heaney's piece on things that control vitamin absorption.

http://blogs.creighton.edu/heaney/2013/06/25/some-rules-for-studies-evaluating-nutrient-effects/

he has a great and illustrative piece where he brakes down Vitamin D and calcium interactions in the body.

where he points very effectively quoting " Diets inadequate in one nutrient are almost always inadequate in several others as well."

and how quoting  where  he mentions co-agents of absorption "Finally, studies may be null because of failure to optimize co-nutrient status."  and why often (my words) we find studies (but he summarizes well) that "healthy individuals" do not benefit from supplementation.

In his (Dr. Heaney's) words "Above that point more vitamin D does not produce more absorption. It has further been shown that even maximal vitamin D status will not compensate for calcium intakes below a certain level, i.e., even maximal absorption of not very much ingested calcium will result in not very much absorbed calcium."

This explains why B-Vitamins are best taken as complexes because the low status of one vitamin can effect the status of the other vitamin's absorption.

This one of the reason Folic acid levels are capped at 400mcg or 800 mcg because it can mask the effects of a B-12 deficiency.

I know this is a lot to digest.

But I hope this is helpful.

*****this is not medical advice only my own experience and research with vitamin/minerals.

I no longer take a b-complex but did 2 or 3/day for 3 or 4 months because after 3 months my liver had filled up it's reserve but I still benefit from repleting my B-Vitamin deficiencies. (I think year(s) later IMHO).

If you want to read more about my experience with taking the B-Vitamin Niacin as the non-flushing Niacinamide form you can read my blog post on celiac.com

People really shouldn't be afraid of/a B-Vitamin(s) but many people still are!

OH I have had similar luck with Magnesium and I do still take Magnesium Glycinate 200mg 3/day and probably always will.

see  this link here how Magnesium helps with depression.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16542786/

I only know it helped me.

And I pray to God it helps you too!

I really believe God helped me to understand these things for myself 2 Tim 2:7 and I am just trying to help others’ as I have received help of God 2 Cor 1: 3,4 . the Lord being my help.

posterboy by the grace of God,

 

 

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Posterboy, thank you very much for your reply - it’s very helpful to me. I’ll read the studies and blog posts you have recommended.

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