I Thought Vodkas Were Gluten-free

[emcmaster]

but I just saw a website that says Stolichnaya vodka is distilled from "winter wheat".

[Mango04]

I think Vodkas are considered gluten-free becasue they are distilled. The distillation process removes the gluten protein. It's kinda like distilled vinegar.

[psawyer]

Distilled beverages are gluten-free. The gluten molecule does not pass into the distillate because it is too large to evaporate during the first phase of the process.

[ehrin]

Stoli is on the Clan-Thompson gluten-free list

[emcmaster]

Phew! I was worried I'd have to give up my beloved Stoli & crans!

Thanks!

[gfp]

Distilled beverages are gluten-free. The gluten molecule does not pass into the distillate because it is too large to evaporate during the first phase of the process.

Size isn't an issue the SLHE is the issue but since this is a multiphase azeotropic mix I don't see how you can make (and keep making) statements based on 19C science. Predicting the eutectic for gliadins and partial chains in the solution is simply not possible as the partial pressure changes.

[elonwy]

I stay away from grain based alcohols even if they are distilled because for some reason they make me sneeze and my nose run. Chopin and other potato based vodkas and other things like tequila and rum don't have the same effect. It's pretty weird.

Elonwy

[Kaycee]

Size isn't an issue the SLHE is the issue but since this is a multiphase azeotropic mix I don't see how you can make (and keep making) statements based on 19C science. Predicting the eutectic for gliadins and partial chains in the solution is simply not possible as the partial pressure changes.

I must be blonde, but I can't understand this. It sounds interesting and quite intelligent, but I can't understand it.

Please explain this in laymans terms.

Ta

[Lister]

yeah what she/he said

sorry dont know what sex u are

[tarnalberry]

Size isn't an issue the SLHE is the issue but since this is a multiphase azeotropic mix I don't see how you can make (and keep making) statements based on 19C science. Predicting the eutectic for gliadins and partial chains in the solution is simply not possible as the partial pressure changes.

Well, assuming they do use distillation columns, size *is* partially the issue, as there is also a physical restriction to get through as well. (There was when I did distillation, though it wasn't alcohol.) I would imagine, however, the precise method of distillation varies from company to company and is a trade secret.

I will make (and keep making) statements based on "19 century science" since physics doesn't go out of date. Gravity hasn't stopped existing. ;-) We're not dealing with "is it 10.01x or 9.99x" we're dealing with "is it 1000x or x", predicting orders of magnitude is done in the hard sciences all the time!

And, if it makes everyone else feel any better, numerous studies have been done *on the finished product* and not found any traces of gluten in a product that didn't have gluten added back to it.

[tarnalberry]

I must be blonde, but I can't understand this. It sounds interesting and quite intelligent, but I can't understand it.

Please explain this in laymans terms.

Ta

You're not blonde. :-) gfp was using sophmore year chem major/minor lingo (specifically, physical chemistry). There's no reason to expect most people to understant it, but if you're interested, there are a number of useful websites out there that can explain the terms that google can help you find. Picking up a Physical Chemistry textbook from the library would do the same.

[penguin]

You're not blonde. :-) gfp was using sophmore year chem major/minor lingo (specifically, physical chemistry). There's no reason to expect most people to understant it, but if you're interested, there are a number of useful websites out there that can explain the terms that google can help you find. Picking up a Physical Chemistry textbook from the library would do the same.

As nearly all of my friends are Chemical Engineers or Chemists, I know that nobody in their right mind picks up a p-chem book without a course requirement. Blech.

And very few of those that pick up the books, with course prequisites completed, understand any of it.

[gfp]

You're not blonde. :-) gfp was using sophmore year chem major/minor lingo (specifically, physical chemistry). There's no reason to expect most people to understant it, but if you're interested, there are a number of useful websites out there that can explain the terms that google can help you find. Picking up a Physical Chemistry textbook from the library would do the same.

I will bold some terms for google or wikipedia. (I recommend wikipedia but I am not checking each term is defined so fall back to google) ... the fact remains many people get sick from grain distilled alcohol.

The simple answer is water doesn't boil at 100C at stp ... it averages 100C. Some molecules come of earlier and some come of later depending upon the (thermodynamic) energy of that molecule.

If this were the case then we wouldn't have any clouds because very few places on earth does the temperature reach 100C (active volcanic vents?) but yet the water evaporates ...it even evaporates directly from ice. Simply the water molecule must escpape and in an ideal gas, once it does then it no longer has mutual attraction. The liquid must by definition have mutual attraction to be a liquid.

The average temperature depends on pressure so water boils at a lower temperature on the top of a mountain to at sea level and in a pressure cooker it boils at a higher temperature. The relationship depends how close water is to being an "ideal gas".

partial pressure is the co-dependance of the two components on each other ... in other words how the presence of one effects the other.

Many mixtures of two liquids have a boiling point which is higher than the two of them together ... if you plot the ratio of the two in the gaseous solution for a single pressure and temperature then at endpoint 1 you will get 100% of 1 and endpoint 2 100% of 2 and inbetween you get a mixture the ratio depending on the temperature (or pressure of temp is kept constant) You can calcualte this by taking A by itself and plotting the amount and the same with B then you add both and this gives the partial pressure at each point.

Basically if you boil the liquid you will get a vapour which is composed of a mixture of the two starting at the low end and going to the high end and the bioling temperature of the liquid will start at the lowest and progress to the highest. Usually there is a mid point where A+B have a higher BP than either pure A or pure B this is known as a eutectic point.

If you plot the graph you end up with the graph arching upwards but some mixtures act differently when mixed than seperate. In these the partial pressure has a codependance. and the graph goes downwards.

If you boil this mixture it will boil at this point (average) and you will always end up with a mixture which is a fixed ratio of A and B.

Alcohol(ethanol)/water is one of these. However much you distill them you will always end up with a mix of approximately 96% alcohol from memory. However much you distill you end up with the same mixture.

However this is a very simple case, it assumes that fermentation produces only alcohol and water which is a gross simplification.

As soon as you add a third substance you complicate this ... and if the two main products are highly soluble in each other (like alcohol/water) and also mutually soluble with the third substance then it gets horribly complicated and the 2D graph becomes a 3D graph...

Fermentation of grain produces literally hundreds of compounds...and mostof them are mutually attracted so to visualise this you need a graph with hundreds of axes and modelling how it proceeds is very much like modelling the weather. The exact fermentation is never quite the same, the yeast are living beings after all

but equally important is fermentation of grain is pretty much inefficient because the starches which are needed by the yeasts are locked inside the protective proteins so ... we have to break them down first.

Luckily nature provides the exact methods we need .. germination and roasting.

this breaks down the protective barrier (the proteins)...

To my knowledge noone has completely isolated the exact amino acid chains responsible for celiac disease or the exact lengths. What we know is by lookijng at common chains between wheat, barley and rye and knowing it must be in there somewhere.

Moreover noone has studied delivery methods for these chains on the human body.

For instance if it is dissolved in alcohol or not. What we do know is that they are very soluble in alcohol (part of the definition of a prolamine) and what is the effect of deliverying a smaller pre-broken down part of the amino acid chain. In other words if we ate raw grain vs the exact part which casuses the problem already dissolved in a substance (alcohol) which crosses the bodies own barriers. ...

In other words say 20 ppm is OK for a gluten molecule is 20 ppm of the pure (presently unknown) substance OK? and if that is dissolved in alcohol does this affect the body more or less?

Lets face it we are still in the phase where oats are "uncertain" and "inconclusive"

I have googled for accurate quantitative analyses of different alcohols in terms of impurities but not found them but what I do know from personal experience is that large molecules show up unexpectedly in the most unexpected places if you do not apply quantum mechanics. Specifically large pesticide molecules or derivatives have a habit of somehow finding there way into a distillate and clogging a GC column and this is sufficiently expensive that this is well documented. (usually starting at $80+ a column and $200/hr machine downtime)

so for me this subject is like oats ... I have seen no firm evidence that amino acid chains cannot be part of the distillate nor their affect on the human body, I am merely postulating how.

Since we are talking about health then my opinion is to err onthe side of caution until its proven. but I cannot support a blanket statement that distilled grains are safe while we have so many unknowns especially whilst so many people do experience problems specifically with them.

While we are on it asking the manufactuerer is a bit catch-22: If this were a toxin then there would be a minimum reporting limit (MRL) and a Minimum Detection Limit (MDL) but neither of thee are available for gluten with a method except ones which look at 20ppm or 200ppm.

Since we don't know the effect of either the concentrated offender (the amino acid sequence) when its isolated nor the delivery into the body if it is dissolved in alcohol then blanket statements are IMHO not applicible. Afterall its not long ago that 200ppm was completely safe for all celiacs.

[debmidge]

I'm a natural blonde; I hope there isn't a test later.

[gfp]

I'm a natural blonde; I hope there isn't a test later. wink.gif

My girlfriend's best UNI friend is Belgian (the main stay of French jokes if you call them jokes), blonde and Jewish... and she is the person she calls everytime to explain something to her, a natural brunette!

However lucky she also has a sense of humor or it would be almost impossible to to tell any joke in her presence!

edits: had to change 'Gluten-free' to girlfriend else she was my gluten-free

[debmidge]

I usually tell people that there are no dumb blondes, only brunettes who bleach their hair blonde are the source of dumb blondes and give us real blondes a bad rep. (no offense to bleached blondes meant, just kidding).

(by the way, "Winter Wheat" is a Clairol haircolor name")

[Guest cassidy]

I finally had stoli vanilla (my favorite) and plain grey groose and I didn't get sick.

It was really weird. I don't usually drink very much, except when I go to business conventions. This last trip I had 4 drinks, which is a lot for me and I didn't feel drunk and I woke up feeling great. Since going gluten-free it seems like I can handle more alcohol than before and not get hungover. I guess that will come in handy for my next convention.

[eKatherine]

I'm a natural blonde; I hope there isn't a test later.

What gfp is saying is that when you boil a liquid mixture (like mash, containing a variety of proteins that have formed from the breakup of gluten during fermentation), you cannot assume that the alcohol will evaporate without taking some of the gluten with it.

[gfp]

What gfp is saying is that when you boil a liquid mixture (like mash, containing a variety of proteins that have formed from the breakup of gluten during fermentation), you cannot assume that the alcohol will evaporate without taking some of the gluten with it.

Pretty much .. the important word is assume because in my book its better not to take a risk until you are sure.

There is a difference with CC because its something you perhaps risk from time to time and you can assess the risks each and everytime (though fast food by its nature tends to remove the time to think it over fully, especially when your hungry) wheras if you are like me and divide the world into haarem and hallal or forbidden and permitted then you add it to your fallback's...

I have my own mental lists of safe and unsafe, wine is safe beer is not.

Given the nature of alcohol and its ability to affect judgement and take risks I believe it is even more important with alcoholic beverages. Most Cider is gluten-free but some are not so I take it off the safe list ... and i do the same with spirits ... if its debabtable I put it on the forbidden list because i know my ability to assess this is going to be imparied after a few drinks.

[Guest barbara3675]

Sooooooooo, is Absolut Vodka, which is made from grain, gluten-free? I need to know.

[Daxin]

SO I guess to be totally safe, find a potato vodka. From what I can decipher from all this chem lingo is MAYBE gluten will not survive the distillation process.

However, as a rye drinker (canadian whiskey to most) I do not have a reaction. It is made out of its namesake, and it should make me VERY sick....so I have to assume it's okay. I am still waiting for a response from two distillers, so we shall see.

[gfp]

SO I guess to be totally safe, find a potato vodka. From what I can decipher from all this chem lingo is MAYBE gluten will not survive the distillation process.

However, as a rye drinker (canadian whiskey to most) I do not have a reaction. It is made out of its namesake, and it should make me VERY sick....so I have to assume it's okay. I am still waiting for a response from two distillers, so we shall see.

I guess like everything else everyone has different tolerances.

i actually have a vodka myself from time to time (like 1-2 a year) and sometimes im ill and sometimes not but on the whole i stick it on the bad list.

The thing is yes its a definate maybee

What I object to is blanket statements ... unless someone can actually prove it because its not a case of "oh i had one and was OK"

i mean somedays I can drink an amount of something gluten-free like wine and feel like xxxx the next day and sometimes I can drink double and not feel a thing... largely it depends on the wine ... but it also depends on me, what Ive eaten and my metabolism etc. etc.

Does gluten survive fermentation, probably a lot does and this is unlikely to go into the distillate but not completely impossible, but fopr the stuff that has broken down .. are the chains long enough to contain the sequences that celiacs react to probably... are they likely to be part of the distillate I honestly don't know ... and it probably varies batch to batch and it depends what you call some and some ....

i.e. 20 ppm is pretty hard to visualise .. throw 1 million grains of sand on a football field and then take 20 out and throw in 20 onion seeds or something a simlar size.... I mean we are talking about very small amounts but it is proven that in some celaics 20ppm is too much ...

Imagine gluten as a big daisy chain with 25 daisies. The gluten surrounds the starches and is composed of two proteins, gliadin and glutenin in roughly equal amounts ...so for the purpose of this lets say the petals are gliadin (bad) and the other part glutenin (not bad)

Each gliadin is composed of sequences of 4-6 amino acids and it is beleived it is the order they are connected that causes the problem ...... so the individual petals could be the amino acids. ...

During the process we take millions of these chains and throw them together and bake then and stick in yeast and the yeast eats the starches and the things start to fall apart....

If they break down to individual petals then we are OK because these are just normal amino acids but they all degrade at different rates and there are millions....of them so the chance is some will stop in just the right state of 4-6 petals still clumped together .. is it 1 in a million or 1000 in a million ????

However from the original daisy chain of 25 daisies we now have some petals in clumps... do these go through the distillation ??? Again really complex because as well as daisy chains we have hundreds of other ingredients in varying amounts and varying proportions ... and these all affect each other but are very much smaller than the original daisy chain...

Does that make any sense?

In some ways industrial ones might be better, they don't need to use the whole grain .. they can just rinse the starch out of flour and purify this but then it wouldn't TASTE like vodka it would taste like industrial alcohol diluted with water.

[Lillyth]

Since we are talking about health then my opinion is to err onthe side of caution until its proven. but I cannot support a blanket statement that distilled grains are safe while we have so many unknowns especially whilst so many people do experience problems specifically with them.

AMEN!!!!

I react to Stoli. (Though I will admit it is less of a reaction than other vodkas). But then again, I also reacted to the "zero" trace in Sojo's Fish & Chips.

I happen to be a VERY sensitive individual. I know there are plenty of folks who have not reaction to distilled things.

I'm with you. The distilation process "should" remove the gluten - but if that is the case, how come I have an allergic reaction every time I have grain alcohol?

[gfp]

AMEN!!!!

I react to Stoli. (Though I will admit it is less of a reaction than other vodkas). But then again, I also reacted to the "zero" trace in Sojo's Fish & Chips.

I happen to be a VERY sensitive individual. I know there are plenty of folks who have not reaction to distilled things.

I'm with you. The distilation process "should" remove the gluten - but if that is the case, how come I have an allergic reaction every time I have grain alcohol?

Yep and I can quote all the science I want but it doesn't change this fact indeed a fundamental precept is Occam's razor .. the simplest explanation is usually true...

Considering I react (sometimes), you do and several others there must be something in the grain vodka...

My explanation might not be correct, because basically there are so many unknowns and uncontrolable things which go on in the process and its simply just there because people with scientific explanations keep posting that its impossible .. nope this is just one way it is possible.

[debmidge]

Thanks for the explanation...I understood gfp first time, but I still don't want a test on it