Alcohol, Vinegar & The Distillation Process

[Lillyth]

I went to the Stanford Celiac Conference today, and asked the folks there about the distillation process and how that works with alcohol made from grain.

I won't bore you all with the lengthy answer, but the long and short of it is that this debate may never be put to bed: the distillation process should remove all of the gluten, but depending on the process, it may not.

So how's that for a difinitive answer?

I will say in defense of all the people on the "other" side of the debate, Dr. Grey did say he had never had anyone report such symptoms.

I did have one of the other fellow conference goers suggest that perhaps it is a sensitivity to something else in the grain alcohol - does anyone know of anything else that might mimic the symptoms of celiac so exactly? If so, I'd be happy to look into that as a possible cause. After all, if there is something else out there causing the same stuff, I'd like to figure it out. The thing is my symptoms of a glutening are so steady and consistant, that that is the only thing I can come up with when I have the same exact same, to a tee, reactions when drinking distilled alcohol...

Now for the good news:

According to Ann Whelan, of Gluten Free Living - ALL VINIGARS (in the US) ARE ABSOLUTLY, POSSITIVELY, GLUTEN FREE!!!!! (With the possible exception of malt vinegar).

I know there was some concern during the "great alcohol distillation" debate as to whether or not we needed to worry about vinegar. Unless it is malt vinegar, all US vinegars are 100% SAFE!!!

Yay!!!!!!

Just thought you all might like to know...

Lil

[Nantzie]

I don't think I've ever posted about this here before, but in my previous, gluten-filled life, my favorite drink was Absolut Mandarin and cranberry juice. I didn't drink it very often, but it was what I ordered if we went out. Since going gluten-free, the few times I've had it, I got a weird reaction on my hands. Not itchy or painful like DH, but a weird drying/thickening/reddening of the skin on my hands and it would split and I'd end up with little tiny cut-type sores on my knuckles especially. It would take three weeks for it to heal. I retested it twice to make sure that it was the vodka doing it, and it's for sure that it is. It didn't give me any other glutening symptoms; not even a headache. Just the weird skin thing.

A couple weeks ago, I bought another mandarin flavored vodka that said that it was distilled six times. Hence the name; Six Vodka. I gave it a shot and it seems to be much better. My hands still react slightly in that they feel slightly dry, but more like I need some lotion and not looking like lizard skin.

So if anyone else feels like they may be having issues, try a different brand that has more distillation cycles and it may help.

Nancy

[Matilda]

..

[Lillyth]

All vinegar (except malt) is completely safe in the same way that distilled alcohol is completely safe (!!!). I think if you believe one you believe the other.

I'm not sure myself, and haven't tested distilled alcohol. For me I think there's something in common between wine and vinegar that troubles me. I've tried giving up the wine and that doesn't seem to benefit me much.

Yeast is my next target. Hey-ho. What fun.

I heard today that the distillation process is slightly different for vinegar vs. alcohol. Dunno if it's true or not.

Funny, for me, it seems to be something in common between distilled alcohol & vinegar - wine is okay for me.

If you don't mind my asking, what are your symptoms?

(Maybe we can find a common thread here)...

[steveindenver]

A couple weeks ago, I bought another mandarin flavored vodka that said that it was distilled six times. Hence the name; Six Vodka. I gave it a shot and it seems to be much better. My hands still react slightly in that they feel slightly dry, but more like I need some lotion and not looking like lizard skin.

You have to be careful on the flavorings in vodka/gin/rum. That's what could contain gluten.

[Matilda]

..

[LqrMan]

Seems like this will always be debated. Anyhow, I know my body and I can't drink gluten containing grain vodkas even though they are distilled. Even though everyone says they don't affect you, I get glutening symptoms every time I try to drink a little liquor distilled from gluten. I think basically everyone's body is different and some people can tolerate it and some can't. I just happen to be on the latter end.

[gfp]

I went to the Stanford Celiac Conference today, and asked the folks there about the distillation process and how that works with alcohol made from grain.

I won't bore you all with the lengthy answer, but the long and short of it is that this debate may never be put to bed: the distillation process should remove all of the gluten, but depending on the process, it may not.

So how's that for a difinitive answer?

I will say in defense of all the people on the "other" side of the debate, Dr. Grey did say he had never had anyone report such symptoms.

I did have one of the other fellow conference goers suggest that perhaps it is a sensitivity to something else in the grain alcohol - does anyone know of anything else that might mimic the symptoms of celiac so exactly? If so, I'd be happy to look into that as a possible cause. After all, if there is something else out there causing the same stuff, I'd like to figure it out. The thing is my symptoms of a glutening are so steady and consistant, that that is the only thing I can come up with when I have the same exact same, to a tee, reactions when drinking distilled alcohol...

Now for the good news:

According to Ann Whelan, of Gluten Free Living - ALL VINIGARS (in the US) ARE ABSOLUTLY, POSSITIVELY, GLUTEN FREE!!!!! (With the possible exception of malt vinegar).

I know there was some concern during the "great alcohol distillation" debate as to whether or not we needed to worry about vinegar. Unless it is malt vinegar, all US vinegars are 100% SAFE!!!

Yay!!!!!!

Just thought you all might like to know...

Lil

Lilyth:

I don't know if anyone knows too much about the fermented mash goes into spirits, largely because for the end product its not so critical but I do know quite a bit about wine fermentation and I have a friend knows even more.

What I know about fermenting wines is that the process is pretty complex and that it is highly variable which is why wines are so complex to study.

On a medical side there is this

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Obviously esters are going to give you headaches but .... the common byproducts have been isolated since 1905 i

PRIMARY BYPRODUCTS

pyruvic acid, acetaldehyde, ketoglutaric acid (binding partners for SO2!)

glycerol (4-14g/L)

dihycroxyacetone-P + NADH2 ---> a-glycero-P + NAD ---> glycerol + Pi

lactic acid (0.1-0.2 g/L) (lack of thiamin to decarboxylate pyruvate to

acetaldehyde)

CH3COCOOH ---> CH3CHOHCOOH

pyruvic acid + NADH2 --> lactic acid + NAD

acetic acid (0.2-0.5 g/L):

CH3COH + H2O + NAD ---> CH3COOH + NADH2

oxidation of acetaldehyde to acetic acid

The two prinicple study groups for this are Cornell and Montpellier. My friend went to Cornell but knows most of the viniculture dept in Montpellier so I can probably track down more but.....

From what I already know its not a constant, so many factors influence this and literally thousands of byproducts are produced.

Most wines undergo 2 stage fermentation (Lambrusco types being an exception) even if the second (Mallo-Lactic) fermentation is in the bottle...

The principal bacteria responsible for ML fermentation in wine belong to the Leuconostoc, Pediococcus and Lactobacillus genera. Each genus contains several different species, so the term “malolactic bacteria” refers to a group of microorganisms. When wine undergoes spontaneous ML fermentation, several different kinds of bacteria may be involved, and these different microbes react in the wine in different ways. Depending upon conditions, the microbes produce a variety of byproducts.

These processes are all essentially biological hence its not the same as a controlled chemical reaction... it has that magic spark added ... life!

In other words each fermentation is essentially unique....and unrepeatable.

My personal feeling is that a part of the process breaks down the gluten and that this then seemingly randomly (obviously not quite) proceeds to a certain extent.... the final stage being the complete breakdown into harmless (for most) amino acids.

An average wine contains between .15% and .3% protein or nitrogenous materials...

Youlk can often see this in an unfiltered very dry white wine that has been bottled early or in larger (magnum plus) bottles as a dendritic growth.

Anyway... I can probably find some technical stuff on wine because it is much studied but on the actual grain fermentation ??

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