Oxalates And Nightshades

[Flor]

Let's hear it for still being a work in progress!

I think testing our "resilience" at any given point is a good idea and gives a real sense of how far down the healing road we have come.

I haven't eaten anything high oxalate and hardly medium oxalate in two and a half weeks. But last night I put a little salsa into the buffalo meet I was making (nachos for the family, over white rice for me). Salsa is both high oxalate and with nightshades!

And this morning my poop was like the old days -- dark and black specks and heading towards diarrhea.

So I guess for me at the moment, I'm not into the resilient zone yet! I almost risked trying one white tortilla chip last night and am glad now that I didn't.

But, I feel motivated to stick with it because I feel SO much better now that I've made it past the first week or so of really bad oxalate dumping symptoms.

Hey, side note: could someone explain to me what herxing is? I see reference to it all over the board but didn't know what it was.

[jerseyangel]

Hey, side note: could someone explain to me what herxing is? I see reference to it all over the board but didn't know what it was.

Others will be able to explain it better, but basically, it's when bacteria and other "bad guys" die off (through antibiotics, or other protocol ) causing toxins to be released faster than the body can handle them. It is also called "healing pain".

It can cause the aches, pains, GI issues, nightsweats and other miserable stuff.

Definately stick with it--you sound like you're really making progress!

[Judyin Philly]

FLORECE AND PATTI................GREAT NEWS BOTH OF YOU

I'VE BEEN DOING SO WELL AND DETOXING SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH URINE AT NITE BUT THE

FOG IS GONE

THAT ALONE IS AMAZING............HAD SOME CHOC SORBET AND RASBERRY MIXED WITH gluten-free RICE CEREAL ON TOP AND THE DARKER 'D' WITH SOME BLACK FLAKES BUT SURE WAS A EASY 'D' NO RUSH............JUST 3 TIMES AND KINDA FORMED SO............................I KNOW I'M HEALING.

AND.................DIDN'T TAKE THE CALTRATE WITH IT WAS GOING TO TAKE LATER AS WE'D EATEN LATE AND THERE WAS ONLY 3 HRS IN BETWEEN.........................SO GUESS 3HRS WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER THAN NOT AT ALL.

IT WAS TO BE A TEST...........BUT FELL ASLEEP WATCHING TV............. THUS THE 4:00 POST. ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

[jerseyangel]

Judy--

That is good progress! I take the Caltrate 3 times a day--usually with meals, but on weekends or something when we don't eat at regular times I just make sure I take it the 3 times.

You sound like me with the falling asleep--Monday night, I fell asleep watching Mystery Diagnosis. I woke up in the middle of the night, and they were re-running that same episode, so I watched for a while--and fell asleep again! I never did find out what happened to that poor woman.

[bluejeangirl]

Gail,

I had that same stomach gas for most of last week. I don't believe that I was CC or ate anything I was intolerant to. (I was CC'd over this past weekend, but this gas feeling was last week)

It bordered on nausea, but I had a sense that it was gas and that if it would just move, I'd feel better. Since it was a different thing than I usually get--and it happened after the achiness began to subside, I think it may have been more dumping of oxalates. Hard to be sure, though.

I didn't think too much of it at the time, but now that I see that you had something similar, maybe it is connected....

That could be Patti, mine bordered on nausea also. Today I decided to lay off the cauliflower, broccoli and apples. Try that for a week. I've been having them because they are low ox. but normally I know they give me gas problems. I need to heal the gut alittle more before I can properly digest some fo these foods. I was just reading that an inadaquate digestive system will steal enzymes from the immune sysgtem to operate , therefore weakening the immune function even more. I don't want to increase the toxic load with my inability to digest these vegetable.

You can't win, I try to eat vegetables for the nutrition but poor digestion leaves the body and the immune sysem in the same predicament that poor nutrition does. So I guess I'll try this and see what happens. I read what you said about thinking nightshades were more of a problem and now your thinking is changing. Mine to,...tomatoes aren't as bad as I once thought to. I just can't eat alot of them or a load of spaghetti sauce on my tinkyada. With tomato sauces I get the problem with acid staying in my stomach because it relaxes the that valve. As does coffee and chocolate. I also read where calcium suppliments can relax that valve also so if anyone notices this happening it could be the extra calcium were taking.

RACHEL!!! That is wonderful! This is such great news. Saying prayers it continues to agree with you.

Great day everyone,

Gail

[dlp252]

OMGOSH!!! Rachel eating normal foods! WOW!!! How exciting.

Patti being able to have her tomatoes and potatoes ocassionally...also exciting.

Discoveries left and right....mucho exciting indeed!

I've been overeating chocolate, so I don't have anything exciting to report. I really thought I was in the right frame of mind to be strict, but apparently not yet. I'm still eating mostly low oxalates, with just a few medium.

[Judyin Philly]

DONNA

SO HAPPY YOUR BETTER........I THINK AT LEAST I CAN'T KEEP UP WITH THE OMG I GET SO BEHIND

SO GLAD YOUR COMING HERE TO UPDATE US

I'm still eating mostly low oxalates, with just a few medium. GOT FROM AN ALERT

CRUISE NOT FAR AWAY.

HAVE A HEALTHY TIME

HUGS

JUDY

[rinne]

Ummmm...good point Andrea.

:lol:

Rachel, your post brought tears to my eyes, I am so happy for you.

FLORECE AND PATTI................GREAT NEWS BOTH OF YOU

I'VE BEEN DOING SO WELL AND DETOXING SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH URINE AT NITE BUT THE

FOG IS GONE

......

Judy that is wonderful, I do get your reference to wet nights now, sorry I was a bit slow.

Is anyone having night sweats with oxalate dumping?

[AndreaB]

So I sat there with everyone else...like a normal person....and ate a ton of chips and salsa.

WooHoo!!!!! That is so exciting!!!!!

I've tried adding potato and tomato (sauce) in since the reaction cycle (dumping) has slowed down and have been fine with them. While I still don't think I want to over do on them like I had been doing, I will use tham on a rotating basis for some more variety.

Yay on potatoes and tomatoes occassionally.

I was up til 3:30 playing a trial computer game.

FOG IS GONE

Great news for you too!!!

I've been overeating chocolate, so I don't have anything exciting to report. I really thought I was in the right frame of mind to be strict, but apparently not yet. I'm still eating mostly low oxalates, with just a few medium.

Did you read Carla's post about chocolate and lead?

[dlp252]

I'm still eating mostly low oxalates, with just a few medium. GOT FROM AN ALERT

CRUISE NOT FAR AWAY.

HAVE A HEALTHY TIME

THANKS JUDY!!!

Did you read Carla's post about chocolate and lead?

Yes, and still that doesn't seem to be enough to click that thing in my brain that needs to click. Once it clicks, I can resist even if my favorite chocolate were sitting in front of me all day. It would help if lead came up elevated in my metals test.

[jerseyangel]

Donna--I have that same click thing, too! I would no more eat gluten than I'd jump off a building. It's just not something that even registers with me.

But on the chocolate (and popcorn ), no click yet.

I'm doing my best, though and I think staying in the moderate range.

[jerseyangel]

I was up til 3:30 playing a trial computer game.

I see we have another night-owl in our midst

Lead in chocolate

[Flor]

Hi you all. I was just having a moment of gratitude...

Here I am three weeks into this LOD and I feel better than I have in two years. I am still cautious about making proclamations but this feels like real progress.

I was ELATED about how I felt after I went gluten-free last year, but the benefits only lasted about three weeks, and then soy free (I'd already been dairy free), and those improvements were short-lived too. I think now because I had replaced everything with nightshades and oxalates.

My shins aren't burning as much as they did last week, my energy is better. I'm definitely not 100 percent by any means, but SO much better than I have been.

I am SO glad I stumbled on this nightshade and LOD stuff. I'm trying to remember now where I first read about the LOD on here. Does anyone remember where this first came up on here? Was it Robbin? Something buried in that previous nightshade thread by the guy who wrote that book?

I'm back to feeling like we should post a banner for all newcomers to the celiac.com website warning them about nightshades and oxalates while their wounded guts are trying to heal.

[jerseyangel]

Florence--I'm SO happy for you! I hope this turns out to be the missing puzzle piece for you

[jerseyangel]

I've noticed an interesting thing with the calcium....

I take Caltrate and the tablets are pretty big, so I'd been snapping them in half. Last week, I decided to try and swallow them whole and was able to, easily.

But.....I noticed that when I don't break them in half, they seem to sit in my stomach and it's very uncomfortable. Gail, that high gas we talked about came back when I did this--all I know it that now that I've gone back to breaking them up, they sit better and no more stomach upset. I've tried it both ways several times.

Strange, but true. Just a heads up in case someone is getting stomach upset with the calcium.

[Judyin Philly]

Hi you all. I was just having a moment of gratitude...

Here I am three weeks into this LOD and I feel better than I have in two years. I am still cautious about making proclamations but this feels like real progress.

I was ELATED about how I felt after I went gluten-free last year, but the benefits only lasted about three weeks, and then soy free (I'd already been dairy free), and those improvements were short-lived too. I think now because I had replaced everything with nightshades and oxalates.

My shins aren't burning as much as they did last week, my energy is better. I'm definitely not 100 percent by any means, but SO much better than I have been.

I am SO glad I stumbled on this nightshade and LOD stuff. I'm trying to remember now where I first read about the LOD on here. Does anyone remember where this first came up on here? Was it Robbin? Something buried in that previous nightshade thread by the guy who wrote that book?

I'm back to feeling like we should post a banner for all newcomers to the celiac.com website warning them about nightshades and oxalates while their wounded guts are trying to heal.

FLORENCE

I'M SO GLAD THAT YOUR DOING SO WELL

I FOUND A ALERT ON LIST SERV FROM A VALERIE WELLS WHO POSTED ABOUT THE DRAMATIC RESULTS WHEN NOT HEALING ON THE 'CELIAC' DIET AND ALL THE OTHER INTOLERANCES...AND SHE PUT UP A 1-2-3- SUMMARY OF THE RESULTS SHE'D GOTTEN FROM RESPONCES.

I READ IT AND FORWARDED IT TO ROBBIN AND SHE WENT TO TOWN WITH THE REASEARCH.

I THINK I FORWARD SOME INFO OF THE 1-2-3 SUMMARY TO YOU ALSO.

IT'S JUST ALL OF US SHARING KNOWLEDGE............AND WE'LL KEEP DOING IT RIGHT.

JUDY

[Rachel--24]

I will mention in case it applies to anyone here that melatonin has been shown to aggravate rheumatoid arthritis inflammation. I had been taking it every night for sleep and when I stumbled on the studies about melatonin and RA, I stopped taking it. Within a week or two my joint pain decreased by at least half. It was really quite striking. Though now I'm taking ativan or klonopin (very low dose, but still) to sleep.

I thought I would mention that I have learned that melatonin displaces mercury in the body....which causes symptoms similar to what you're describing. It can also cause a "hang-over" type feeling in the morning.

If thats what you experience with melatonin...it could be that you have a problem with mercury.

This is some of the stuff I read..

Mercury attaches to the ligand sites of hormone producing cells.

Heavy Metals Can Disrupt Sleep The Cycle

The Melatonin hormone controls the sleep/no sleep states. If Melatonin is on in the day, one will feels tired. If it is off at night, one cannot sleep (it should be the other way around).

Too much noradrenaline (NA) at night can also inhibit the sleep state. A chemical called SAMe reduces the level of NA at night; yet mercury, lead, arsenic, cadmium and a variety of other chemicals can bind to SAMe and make it less affective at reducing the night-time NA.

If this is the case, supplementing with SAMe, available from health food stores, can help one sleep.

Those with mercury induced autoimmune problems can worsen from Melatonin supplements, and therefore Melatonin supplementation is not recommended for people with mercury issues.

If it is displaced mercury and if part of the displacement is due to melatonin, you should make sure that you have the right support agents on board, i.e. mop-up agents, such as chlorella, pectin, Destroxin, cholestyramine, chitoson, etc., to get the toxins all the out of the body via stool. Make sure no constipation.

If you don't use these agents, most of the displaced mercury will be reabsorbed (leaky gut) and redistributed somewhere else in the body.

I.e. instead of a sore knee, you end up having a pain in the neck, or get foggy, etc.

Melatonin is also often dysregulated in Autism as well as Lyme...and heavy metals are always a part of the picture.

Another protein eaten by lyme is melatonin, which may account for levels

of serotonin, prolactin and the ability to detox heavy metals. In autism,

melatonin levels are dysregulated, causing sleep disorders, and antibodies are

found against serotonin.

Both melatonin but also methylcobolamin are effective in neuronal damage repair. Children suffering from autism are also treated with these; of course, alongside many other different agents and therapies. The damage is caused by heavy metal toxicity and other neurotoxins (pesticides, insecticides, microbial, etc.)

[dlp252]

OMGosh on the Melatonin...I had no idea it was connected to the mercury. I'm taking 6mg of it every night and my neurotransmitters are all out of whack.

I AM taking chlorella and pectin, but I'm not sure it's enough now.

I've ordered some supplements that hopefully will let me get off this stuff.

[bluejeangirl]

I've noticed an interesting thing with the calcium...

But.....I noticed that when I don't break them in half, they seem to sit in my stomach and it's very uncomfortable. Gail, that high gas we talked about came back when I did this--all I know it that now that I've gone back to breaking them up, they sit better and no more stomach upset. I've tried it both ways several times.

I've been thinking about this calcium thing but I haven't had time to google it yet. These are my thoughts on it. I'm taking calcuim with every meal and I've never done that before. Its actually a calcium/magnesium tablet in the form of calcium lactate and magnesium citrate. I take this because its the most absorbable of all the cals. out there whereas calcium carbonate is the worse. I have calcium citrate coming in the mail and I'll start taking that next.

So I'm taking three tablets every meal and the recommendation is two. I already have little to no stomach acid and digestion is poor. Thats is why I can't consume cabbage cauliflower and broccoli. This is common as we grow older but because I've taken so many acid reducers in the past I've made the problem worse.

The food in my stomach is delayed because of this (again common) because it has to wait for a certain ph for it to pass on the the small intestine and move on down the line. I'm taking the cal. suppliments and being calcium it's neutrilizing what little acid I have. So even longer time is required to get the ph more acid to work on digesting process.

So I'm going to start to take my calcium inbetween meals. I think they recommend before which would be worse in my case. But I think alot of this research is for young people with autism then for older people which is why its hard for me to even read the boards talked about in the beginning of this thread. Its mostly mothers talking about their kids.

So other then that I'm in less pain muscle and joint wise then I've been in a long time. I would have to say the worse I felt was the second week of this diet. I think I did the most dumping then. It was a week long of very sore leg and joint pain. Along with being very tired and flu like. Then is cleared and I've been good ever since with the exception of the stomach/digestive troubles.

But I feel like I'm getting to the bottom of this and hopefully I'lll get the improvement needed for the lining of my gut and stomach that I've had for most of my life. What a miracle that would be. Don't know if that will happen but I'm giving this a fair chance even though I've wanted to quit several times.

I'm eating more then required for the med. ox. vegetables because there are to few for me to eat in the all you can eat kind. Other then that I've stayed away from all highs. I eat brown rice instead of white because I'll get to blood sugar issues with white. In fact if I keep the carbs on the low side when possible.

So that's my weeks progress report. Next week maybe I'll have something to say about taking the other suppliments that they suggested for all those following the diet. They should be here today since I've ordered them online. They are calcium citrate, Arginine, Taurine, Lipoic Acid, NAC (N-acetyl cysteine). I forget why I'll have to review and I'll probably add just a few at a time. I'm already taking the A, E, B6, Biotin, and zinc.

Judy and Florence, its so nice to hear your doing good as well. I'm glad we can all collaberate and knock around ideas and silly notions (speaking for myself of course) You all make this fun coming here. I love your humor Judy and I'll be so estatic if you get better on this.

Gail

[Judyin Philly]

I love your humor Judy and I'll be so estatic if you get better on this. Gail

Thanks so much Gail............I find this and gardening the one thing that keeps be sane.

I must say that i just really read your post fast as i need to keep moving this am and I'M TRYING NOT BE ALLOW BUT 1/2 COMUTER TIME A DAY....... BUT IT'S HARD FOR ME.

The only thing i can say about what you wrote was..........If you start adding alot of supplements at one time if MIGHT be hard to figure out if you react............which was the offender....maybe add one at a time in addition to what you are doing.

good luck and PLEASE KEEP POSTING.....WE ARE REALLY LEARNING FROM EACH OTHER HERE.

JUDY

[jerseyangel]

Gail,

I used to take calcium lactate, as it was recommended to me by a Kinesiologist. At the time, I researched it and found that it was the most readily absorbed (as you said). The problem with it for me was that it (Standard Process) contained the magnesium. Any time I take magnesium alone, or combined with other things, I get worsening D.

I actually stopped all suppliments for a while because there was not one that I tried that did not make me sick.

When I read about the success Robbin had with the citrate, I used that for a while. I had no dumping at all with it, although it was not combined with the LOD at that point. I also did not notice that it affeced my D and lower abdominal discomfort (which was what interested me about calcium at first)

I had read on an IBS board about calcium carbonate, and how many patients went off the Rx meds for D when they took the carbonate. I switched to the Caltrate with vit. D, and that combined with the LOD has stopped my D, and cleared my head. There was the inital dumping that I talked about already that came and went in cycles. Flu-like aches, joint pains, stomach gas, indigestion, etc.

I believe that the reason the carbonate works for the D is because it is the worst absorbed! The part that is not absorbed is eliminated through the intestinal tract where it binds with excess fluids and prevents D. This was the crux of the matter for me, so it's what is working best in my case. I take 600 mg with each meal, or 3 times a day.

I don't have the slow digestive issues--if anything, I would say my digestion is too fast.

The great thing about this is that it seems to be possible for all of us to customize it according to our own needs. The one thing we all seem to have in common is that we detected change right away, and a lot of those symptoms are similar. It's just a matter, I think, of tweaking the foods and the calcium for ourselves. The basic premise, though, which is to get rid of the excess oxalates really looks to be the key.

I'm excited about your progress and will be anxious to hear about how you do with the additional suppliments. Judy made a good point about trying them slowly so if there is a problem, you can pinpoint.

[Judyin Philly]

PATTI

THIS IS THE BEST EXPLINATION OF THE DIFFERENCES IN THE CALCIUM..............I THINK WE SHOULD KEY NOTE THIS SOME HOW AS IT'S JUST SO CLEAR............AND MIGHT HELP NEW PEOPLE COMING ON

PATTI SUMARY............................WISH I HAD THE POST # HERE.

When I read about the success Robbin had with the citrate, I used that for a while. I had no dumping at all with it, although it was not combined with the LOD at that point. I also did not notice that it affeced my D and lower abdominal discomfort (which was what interested me about calcium at first)

I had read on an IBS board about calcium carbonate, and how many patients went off the Rx meds for D when they took the carbonate. I switched to the Caltrate with vit. D, and that combined with the LOD has stopped my D, and cleared my head. There was the inital dumping that I talked about already that came and went in cycles. Flu-like aches, joint pains, stomach gas, indigestion, etc.

I believe that the reason the carbonate works for the D is because it is the worst absorbed! The part that is not absorbed is eliminated through the intestinal tract where it binds with excess fluids and prevents D. This was the crux of the matter for me, so it's what is working best in my case. I take 600 mg with each meal, or 3 times a day.

GO BACK THE THE ABOVE PATTI POST FOR FURTHER INFO #296

[jerseyangel]

Thanks Judy

You know, it's amazing what we find out when we keep digging

[Judyin Philly]

YOU WELCOME PRETTY LADY

WONDER HOW MANY SHOVELS WE'VE WORN OUT '''DIGGING FOR INFO'''

WHERE IS THE HAIR CUT.............???????????????? SORRY.........KNOW YOU BUSY PACKING..I KEEP SEEING THESE HAIRCUTS NOW ALL THE TIME.

GETTING OFF TO WATCH OUR DWTS...........J

[bluejeangirl]

Gail,

I used to take calcium lactate, as it was recommended to me by a Kinesiologist. At the time, I researched it and found that it was the most readily absorbed (as you said). The problem with it for me was that it (Standard Process) contained the magnesium. Any time I take magnesium alone, or combined with other things, I get worsening D.

This is what I'm taking Standard Process calcium lactate with the magniesm and I'm almost done with the bottle. It's expensive and I didn't want to throw it out. Interesting about the calcium carbonate helping D and I agree. If I take it, it'll cause constipation.

I didn't get my suppliments delivered yet but when I do I'll go one at a time for maybe a week at a time before I start with a new one. I'm alittle anxious about taking these. I've had bad experiences with taking vitamins. I still can't get a B complex that agrees with me and I've bought many. I used to eat the model diet because I couldn't take vitamins. Little did a know the blueberries for breakfast and spinach salads for lunch were also making me worse.

I remember reading small red beans had the highest antioxidant and trying to eat them as much as I could while feeling like I was dying. I was eating berries, drinking a glass of wine every night and taking a baby aspirin daily. My blood got so thin I had 7 bruises on my legs. It felt like my stomach was bleeding because I could taste blood. Crazy. I don't know how to do anything halfway, I go full force.

I had pea soup last night and it didn't agree with me this morning. I guess its in the moderate column but I had more then a half a cup. I'd say a cup and a half. I might try it again because it was soooo goood, but only having the half cup. I'm starting to lose some of my resolve I had in the beginning.

take care,

Gail