Ahearn Book, Vanilla, Vinegar And Booze

[Lisa16]

I just bought Shauna Ahearn's Gluten-free girl cookbook. In it she says that not using vanilla, vinegars and grain alcohols (like Scotch) "smacks of old thinking." She explains that the distillation process eliminates the gluten in the final product and says we can have those things without worrying. She says this has been scientifically tested.

So is she right?

I am seeing so much conflicting information on this point that I feel confused. And it is important because I adore real Mexican vanilla (the best, in my opinion) and I like to cook with extracts and there are certain vinegars that are unique and wonderful. The scotch I could care less about, but some people might really want to know!

Lisa

[Lisa]

I just bought Shauna Ahearn's Gluten-free girl cookbook. In it she says that not using vanilla, vinegars and grain alcohols (like Scotch) "smacks of old thinking." She explains that the distillation process eliminates the gluten in the final product and says we can have those things without worrying. She says this has been scientifically tested.

So is she right?

I am seeing so much conflicting information on this point that I feel confused. And it is important because I adore real Mexican vanilla (the best, in my opinion) and I like to cook with extracts and there are certain vinegars that are unique and wonderful. The scotch I could care less about, but some people might really want to know!

Lisa

Yes, it does "smacks of old thinking". All distilled products are now said to be safe (providing that nothing is added post distillation process). Now, with that said, there are a few people here who will react to all grain based products. I can't vouch for foreign products though. I passed up the Mexican Vanilla the other day, because I was not confident in the labeling, although it may be safe.

[gfp]

I just bought Shauna Ahearn's Gluten-free girl cookbook. In it she says that not using vanilla, vinegars and grain alcohols (like Scotch) "smacks of old thinking." She explains that the distillation process eliminates the gluten in the final product and says we can have those things without worrying. She says this has been scientifically tested.

So is she right?

I am seeing so much conflicting information on this point that I feel confused. And it is important because I adore real Mexican vanilla (the best, in my opinion) and I like to cook with extracts and there are certain vinegars that are unique and wonderful. The scotch I could care less about, but some people might really want to know!

Lisa

Vanilla - Well just get fresh or failing that you can buy the pods shrink wrapped... any unique or wonderful vinegar is pretty much OK unless its a malt vinegar.. i.e. GOOD wine, cider etc. vinegars are not distilled and gluten-free..

However on distillation, Nope .. its not old thinking and she is not correct ... because she is using high school chemistry not post grad chemistry.

Distillation as taught at high school is nothing like what happens in real life, its a huge over simplification that avoids a lot of complex chemistry and math that you don't know as undergrad level ... and suffices for the process of examinations at high school level...

As a really simple way to view it... if distillation of alcohols REALLY produced a pure distillate then all unflavored alcohols would taste the same BUT. tequila, vodka etc. taste different ...

The second assumption is that gluten is too large to pass into a distillate ...

1/ Nothing is too large.. Open Original Shared Link

Theoretically your computer could spontaneously dissapear but the odds against that are billions to one... the odds of a single molecule of gluten achieving the kinetic energy to escape however is way lower and there are millions of them...

However ... this assumes wrongly that gluten is what celiacs react to when it is known it is not... so far as i know noone actually knows EXACTLY what we misidentify but that it is a common protein sequence in gluten, horedin (barley) avenin ... that dosn't occur in other plants. (or at least ones we eat)...

Since 90% of the DNA is identical .. not only to other plants but actually to me and you as well this narrows it down...but we still don't know exactly which chain it is nor its length... (although it must be larger than 8C in order to be unique) ..

The next important point is that the 'mash' doesn't contain water and alcohol ... it contains literally hundreds if not thousands of compounds some from the grain or sugar and other's from yeast etc. and no two fermentations ever produce identical products.

Within distillation this is known as an azeotropic multiphase system... if someone can sucessfully solve this then there is a lot of money waiting ...

Open Original Shared Link

This all assumes for instance that water boils at 212F or 100C ....

Firstly it does this at 1 atmosphere ON AVERAGE ... but everyone has seen steam coming right off ice... if water had to get to 100C to evaporate then we would have no rain! This happens because some of the molecules randomly get more kinetic energy ..

However in a mutliphase system the different solutes react with each other ... some cling together and others push away...so if you heat water and heavy oil the water will evaporate faster than without because the oil pushes it away...

In the multiphase system you have hundreds of different things.. some push each other away and some attract others...

Notably water pushes away gluten (which is a prolamine) but there are hundreds of others each interacting ...

So this is like life in a way... imagine that one day you missed a bus or train where you met someone that changed your life...

If just one of these solutes becomes enriched or depleted the whole distillation will become different .. it will still end up with 98% alcohol and 2% water and less than a percent of everything else but the composition of that everything else might be radically different...

Summary

You can't predict the exact distillate even if the fermeted mash was identical each time (and its not) nor do we know exactly which part of gluten causes the reaction....

[Lisa]

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[gfp]

https://www.celiac.com/articles/329/1/Are-D...Safe/Page1.html

Steve, perhaps you analysis is to a much greater level, this is what I base my recommendation upon.

Well, I did actually work on a research project for 2 yrs on modeling pretty much a similar process.

In reality it is one of "those subjects" where a little knowledge can be quite misleading.

Schools have to teach distillation 'somehow' and most kids are not ready for quantum theory .... so its over simplified (like a lot of things) ...

A typical example is how does a TV work.... ???

Sure we have some basic knowledge from school but you certainly are not equipped to go out and buy the parts and make one from scratch ... so although we might think we know how a TV works... we don't really know the detail... and despite me spending 10 yrs studying science at University I doubt I could actually build a TV from scratch....

Shauna Ahearn studied nutrition (if I remember) so I doubt she can build a TV from scratch either... equally however I doubt she studied post-doc chemistry. If you ask any Chemistry professor or research chemist however they will tell you that predicting exactly what is in the distillate is a black art ... and not repeatable.

However from the OP's post ...

She says this has been scientifically tested.

Which can't be strictly true... although she probably believes this.

Various tests say 200ppm is 'safe'..... by which they mean the control group eating 200ppm and the gluten-free group had the same incidences of damage to the villi.

However NONE of these tests i have seen have

1/ Verified the control group are REALLY gluten-free.

2/ Included neurological and other symptoms ...etc.

This is known as biasing the sample....

So what I have to do is compare experience in real life ...

1/ I know I react

2/ I know others on this board who react

The same goes for grain alcohol.... its the same 1 & 2 above....

So worst case ... erm I'm wrong ... I'm missing out knocking back those whisky's and eating cardboard bread.

The flip side ... I don't get ill. I don't do long term damage.

Even if it was purely psychological (and I don't think it is) .. but even if it was it it not worth it just to FEEL well?

However the arguments for it are what I call the "crossing the road without looking" arguments.

Just because you do it once and live doesn't mean you can keep doing it or its safe.

That might sound extreme but really we are talking about something pretty important "our health" ...

I'd rather be wrong and safe than correct and ill and I'm not really giving up much compared to my health.

As I said above... any gourmet vinegar is almost certainly OK so long as its not flavored....

from your link

Distilled vinegar can be distilled from wheat, corn, potatoes, beets, wood, apples and many other things. Most in the USA are not made from wheat, but are instead made from corn, potatoes or wood, which are all safe (Heinz white vinegar is distilled from corn). Distilled vinegars that are made from wheat are probably gluten-free because of the distillation process described in Frederik Willem Janssens article on this site.

1/ We are hardly missing out because we only avoid the MINORITY made from wheat ... honestly, why take a chance when other products probably as good or even better use non wheat derived vinegar? If you compare his to gluten-free breads and stuff we really are missing out... honestly its never AS GOOD as really good fresh (poison) bread

2/ Probably ... doesn't sit well when talking about health.

[Lisa16]

I am afraid I am still confused-- perhaps moreso now than before.

I'll tell you what... my father holds a PhD in Chemistry and taught for over 40 years. i am going to run Steve's answers by him and see what he says. I will then post what he tells me here so that we have the opinion of at least two PhDs (I assume.)

Reply coming.....

[happygirl]

Keep in mind that MANY distilled vinegars/alcohols, etc. never even COME from wheat/barley in the first place....so its not a concern for those products.

All of the large Celiac organizations and the ADA, as MG posted, say that distilled alcohols from unsafe sources are safe.

[Lisa16]

Okay-- here is what I understood from my dad (my PhD is not in Chemistry, so i am way out of my depth-- sorry). he has a PhD in P-chem, but publishes a lot on protein chemistry.

We have a mixed bag here.

Steve is right in that ditillation products vary and that the exact contents very from batch to batch. In fact, my dad said that the results are closer to 95% alcohol and 5% alcohol-water with azeotropes. He feels Steve is also correct in saying that we do not know exactly what part of the protein celiacs react too.

With that said, my dad also told me that he believes that consuming distilled products are much safer than out and out eating something containing gluten. Infinitely safer, as he put it because something distilled is really a different category. Also, Steve's response is probably truer for the "booze" category than for, say, the alcohol in the vanilla extract because most of that is probably made from corn mash. Steve's assumes a water-grain mash.

Pop said that if it were him, he would just try something that was questionable to see if there was a reaction or not. Pretty scientific, huh?

I never expected this to become so scientific! But it is really quite interesting to see the disagreement flare even in one post. What is your average person supposed to do?

I guess i will try the mexican vanilla and see what happens! Here goes nothing....

Lisa

[jerseyangel]

Thanks, all, that was most interesting

[happygirl]

Lisa, is the vanilla you want to use made from a gluten containing grain (w, r, b, o?)

Also, we DO know what the problematic part of gluten is. The 33-mer peptide.

"The offending peptide is a chain of 33 amino acids resistant to metabolism by the human gastrointestinal tract." Open Original Shared Link

[Lisa]

"I never expected this to become so scientific! But it is really quite interesting to see the disagreement flare even in one post. What is your average person supposed to do? "

I am not one to debate gfp ( do I look stupid? ) I suppose that the bottom line, as Pop said, is a personal choice. And, it's obvious here that many have different levels of sensitivity; although, I have never seen any Celiac organization that does not consider distilled products safe.

[lovegrov]

I no longer argue about the distillation thing, but I will point out that in the U.S., the vinegar and the vanilla would need to list wheat. Worrying about distillation on those two is pointless.

richard

[JNBunnie1]

I no longer argue about the distillation thing, but I will point out that in the U.S., the vinegar and the vanilla would need to list wheat. Worrying about distillation on those two is pointless.

richard

Good point.

[Lisa16]

Lisa, is the vanilla you want to use made from a gluten containing grain (w, r, b, o?)

Also, we DO know what the problematic part of gluten is. The 33-mer peptide.

"The offending peptide is a chain of 33 amino acids resistant to metabolism by the human gastrointestinal tract." Open Original Shared Link

The label says "alcohol." That's it. I drank a small shot. So far so good. I'll let you know. it is "La vencedora" brand.

--Lisa the human guinea pig

[tarnalberry]

However on distillation, Nope .. its not old thinking and she is not correct ... because she is using high school chemistry not post grad chemistry.

Distillation as taught at high school is nothing like what happens in real life, its a huge over simplification that avoids a lot of complex chemistry and math that you don't know as undergrad level ... and suffices for the process of examinations at high school level...

...

GFP... That was a lovely way to use a lot of detail (accurate though it may be) to confuse people who won't follow it, and in the end, doesn't make for a good, practical, applied answer in the real world. In a lab, maybe, but not in the real world. (I may not have your qualifications, by I think my BS in applied physics with a focus on p-chem allows me to speak with some intelligence on the subject.)

While we can talk about the fact that there are probabilities for proteins to come out of the liquid in a distillation process (and let's not use sublimation to confuse the process which is what "seeing steam off an ice cube" is), we can talk about probabilities for tennis balls to fall right through a table (hey, it's the same principle lasers are built on) too. And yet we don't really worry about dropping our pencils or tennis balls *through* our desks. Not even really light ones.

Is there ever a single molecule of gluten in product of distillation? Sure. But we know that, as much as we bandy about "zero-tolerance", that toxicity really is dose dependent. I might be a little more worried if we were talking about VX, but we're not. Truly having a handful of molecules - and I'm not talking about a single crumb here, I literally mean a handful of molecules - may or may not be noticed by our system. And if it is, I'd point out that our bodies are designed to handle fluctuation in small degrees - even internal damages (which we're subjected to constantly from a barrage of sources).

I'd equate it to the noise level of cosmic radiation. I might worry about the effect of cosmic radiation in the lab on some experiments, but I don't worry about it's effects on my body unless I'm putting it in extreme circumstances (high-altitude plane flights ever week, for instance). And if you finish extending that analogy to distilled alcohol, you'd be having some serious liver issues (and life issues) before gluten was a problem.

[Lisa16]

I did NOT get sick (I would have by now with certainty. I react fast.) Grateful point to Ahearn!

Therefore I am going to consider this vanilla safe for me. I will try the vinegars too-- one shot at a time. They taste better to me than scotch any old day anyway! I guess that is all I can say. Maybe that shot of vanilla would have done somebody else in.... maybe the next bottle from a different batch will get me.

But it begs the question, how much do we really know about this disease if all of us have different experiences and the medical literature is contradictory? Perhaps there is more to this than blindly following strict laundry lists. Perhaps every once in awhile you have to take that experimental leap of faith and take the proverbial shot of vanilla.

[lovegrov]

Tiffany,

Nice summation. Better than I could have done. Basically, I look at it like everybody should absolutely make their own choices, but some choices involve heavy, heavy amounts of consternation. I'm more concerned about my 40 mile daily trip to work and back, and even more concerned about eating out anywhere.

richard

[BRUMI1968]

Distillation debate aside - you should consider only eating apple cider vinegar, raw, unpasturized with mother in it. This is a good for you vinegar, as opposed to other vinegars which are probably not too good for you anyway,and are acidifying. Make sure to get it in a black bottle or some other colored bottle as the mother gets killed off by light.

[Lisa16]

Richard--

For me cooking ingredientes are as basic as driving to work. Moreso in fact. I will cook every day, whereas I will only walk to work only 4 or 5 days a week (strategic house buying). Sorry you have a consternating commute-- I have seen the traffic in VA. I do not envy you.

As for restaurants, well that is exactly the "shot of vanilla" I am talking about. It extends to everything.

May you find a good one with a sympathetic chef! Or even better, may your food at home be so good you don't want to eat out!

Lisa (aka Tiffany?)

PS I did not know vinegars had mothers! Wow. You do learn something everyday. That and it is still early!

[happygirl]

Tiffany = member name "tarnalberry" who posted earlier in this thread.

[gfp]

GFP... That was a lovely way to use a lot of detail (accurate though it may be) to confuse people who won't follow it, and in the end, doesn't make for a good, practical, applied answer in the real world. In a lab, maybe, but not in the real world. (I may not have your qualifications, by I think my BS in applied physics with a focus on p-chem allows me to speak with some intelligence on the subject.)

That's really the problem because its one of those subjects that unless you want to dive all the way in makes it real hard to explain... from a applied physics POV like wave vs photon theory...

The thing is wave theory actually works in a lot of cases to give a reasonable approximation of observation yet we know its not correct and in some areas it just doesn't work at all.. say single photon diffraction.

The bottom line is we are left with either a simple model or the "current most realistic model" .. but as with everything even close to quantum theory the "current most realistic model" has so little to do with the simple model as to make it inaccessible to anyone without the math and a good deal of study.

Is there ever a single molecule of gluten in product of distillation? Sure. But we know that, as much as we bandy about "zero-tolerance", that toxicity really is dose dependent. ...

My problem here is just that it does not fit observation. I'm quite happy to use wave theory for conventional optics (as you know I'm a keen photographer) .. because it fits observation. However when talking about digital sensors I have to think in terms of photons ... because it fits observations.

The distilled wheat alcohol debate is just that it doesn't fit observation. I know I have reacted on occasion to what I could only pin down to grain distilled alcohol (and it could be something else) .. and others here have had similar reactions ... (and others not) Was it not for this observation then I'd be happy with the simple theory... but at the moment we have two alternatives..

1/ Myself and several others are getting false positives (that is each time we tried we had CC from somewhere else)

2/ We don't know that glutened feeling (but I think we do)

3/ Sometimes it might be possible it is actually the grain alcohol.

So in a way its a matter of what we bet.... I'd put $10 that testing a random bottle would be negative but would I bet my health? The problem from my perspective is perhaps the way I classify foods and drinks.

I tend to be far more a creature of habit post diagnosis than pre. That is I stick to the same brands (mostly) and products that I feel safe with. Reading this board I get the impression others tend towards the same....

So from my perspective, if I allow myself to think all distilled alcohol is safe then I'll probably end up drinking the same thing 2-3 times a week... I already did this with quite a few foods and medicines... that is prior to new labelling laws I already had a bunch of stuff which should have been safe but after the new laws actually disclosed gluten...

Truly having a handful of molecules - and I'm not talking about a single crumb here, I literally mean a handful of molecules - may or may not be noticed by our system.

True but this is what I mean above... if we consume these foods/drinks as habits then a small amount MAY be something that builds up...

Secondly though is the affinity of prolamines for alcohol over water and how this might affect "delivery" ...

I did NOT get sick (I would have by now with certainty. I react fast.) Grateful point to Ahearn!

Therefore I am going to consider this vanilla safe for me. I will try the vinegars too-- one shot at a time. They taste better to me than scotch any old day anyway! rolleyes.gif I guess that is all I can say. Maybe that shot of vanilla would have done somebody else in.... maybe the next bottle from a different batch will get me.

But it begs the question, how much do we really know about this disease if all of us have different experiences and the medical literature is contradictory? Perhaps there is more to this than blindly following strict laundry lists. Perhaps every once in awhile you have to take that experimental leap of faith and take the proverbial shot of vanilla.

Your father did give you the scientific method.... much as you might think 'suck n see' is not scientific that is really the basis of the scientific method.... 1/ observe .. 2/ test ...

The only point to consider (and I'm sure your father will give feedback specifically on distillation) is if the process is consistent. Or in really simple terms does the Mexican vanilla always use the same source of alcohol.

Some of this stuff is easier than others to quantify...

For instance take dextrine and malto dextrine ... In the US 100% are made from corn... no other facilities exist to make them so unless they buy from abroad these are always going to be safe in the US.

In Europe however lots are made from wheat.... (and lots are not) ... so a manufacturer may use one source in one facility and another in a different one or may switch sources as prices fluctuate. Thus quite simply the US stuff is safe because their are no other domestic suppliers and one isn't likely to just spring up or imports suddenly become economically more attractive (as we are basically talking about the waste product anyway)

medical literature is contradictory

Well it often is for quite a few reasons ...

1/ We are all individuals ... two people can react completely differently to the same thing....

Back in my early gluten-free days I still had really bad acid reflux... and I got esomeprazole (Nexium) it worked really well except I was the damned poster child for side effects ... the leaflet lists em.. I got em .. then I got given the generic omeprazole and the side effects were minimal ??? My mom was exactly the same ... but then hardly surprising if its genetic...

2/ Who is funding the study.... we mightest well continue with Nexium since AstraZenaca then funded studies saying its previous (but now unprotected by patent) omeprazole was less effective...

Almost all scientific study tends towards a bias.. if the same water is analysed for a consumer or the supplier the tests can be quite different depending if you want to find something or not find something but equally in the wording of the results.

A 'classic' celiac disease one is the MacDonalds statement (print it and show your pop) which starts off saying that the ELISA tests proved negative for gluten and casein.... though this may be true if you read the WHOLE document it later says the RAST tests were both positive.... (just one line near the bottom). Most people reading it will take the "executive summary" to mean it has no measurable gluten...

However ..what do the results mean? Well its probably a tiny amount as as Tarnalberry said earlier.about grain alcohol.is it anywhere near enough to cause a reaction??? (I don't know) ... and as others point out its pretty moot anyway ... since as with most fast food places the chance of CC is probably much higher than the chance of reacting to the traces of gluten...

What I find interesting is the fact the previous statement said they were destroyed by the process ... and obviously that's not quite true???

We also have global politics and all sorts of other economic influences. The EU accepts 200ppm as gluten free, Australia has zero tolerance... I'm sure there is a reason or several but obviously its confusing. Australia is one of the toughest countries for exporting food to.... and doubtless there is an element of protectionism... (and I don't blame em) ...

Much as I sympathise with Richards commute (I have a 15 min walk) .. I would quite honestly prefer to do his commute without worrying about my pants and car seat!

I am not one to debate gfp ( blink.gif do I look stupid? wink.gif ) I suppose that the bottom line, as Pop said, is a personal choice. And, it's obvious here that many have different levels of sensitivity; although,

It is a subject I worked on specifically in a research lab... I hardly expect Joe and Jane Doe to know this...

I have never seen any Celiac organization that does not consider distilled products safe.

Australia I believe...

[Lisa16]

Here's to you GFP!

I raise the next shot of vanilla to you in a toast. May both your pants and your car seat remain unsullied! And may you always have a bathroom close at hand! And may you never need it desperately.

Somehow I think you won't.

And here's to caution and here's to taking chances for time to time. And here's to not eating cardborad bread every damn day.

I really do appreciate the information from all of you. I have learned a lot-- and not just about distillation.

Sincerest thanks.

[gfp]

Here's to you GFP!

I raise the next shot of vanilla to you in a toast. May both your pants and your car seat remain unsullied! And may you always have a bathroom close at hand! And may you never need it desperately.

Somehow I think you won't.

And here's to caution and here's to taking chances for time to time. And here's to not eating cardborad bread every damn day.

I really do appreciate the information from all of you. I have learned a lot-- and not just about distillation.

Sincerest thanks.

ooh no toast ..

Actually, try as I might to be 100% gluten-free I often find the need to rush to a loo, though far less frequently than before.

And the reason is every so often I do take chances, be it a new product or eating out ...

The most valuable thing I can pass on about this is I have a 100% gluten-free home (with the exception of when I try a new product). The upshot is if I do test something and react I can pretty much isolate what caused it..

I wish I could say I did this from the beginning because I lost a year of my life (effectively).

The problem is often CC. Even though an individual chance is small we are in an environment filled with a toxin. Sandwiches and other toxin carrying foods are ... pretty popular so we are always in environments where people drop crumbs, touch objects we touch etc. Of course each chance is very small but we take hundreds each day...

This is where I find being 100% gluten-free at home most useful. One of the most stressful parts of that year plus was not knowing WHERE/WHEN/HOW. Always give yourself 2-3 days really sure before testing something new. (It took me a while to learn this)

One mistake I made is that I find after a glutening I can be sick for a few weeks... Not all the time .. more in waves so on my bodies timescale 4-5 hrs later I get the 1st signs and 8-12 I'm stuck in a loo.. but after this I get the odd needing the loo quick for the week... then 2nd week and 3rd week I get occasional needing the loo etc. Until i realised this I had great problems identifying the actual cause...because it all got mixed up. This made it hard to know if it was the new food or just a random episode from an older glutening.