Sensitivity To Other Foods After gluten-free

[lbd]

I am moving a piece of a post I wrote from the Dr. Fine/Enterolab thread (aye-yi-yi). So many people seem to develop other sensitivities after going gluten-free. Here are some thoughts on this:

I notice so many people develop additional reactions to foods after going gluten-free. I have a hypothesis about this. Could it be that as your intestinal villi heal from years of gluten toxicity, that the villi absorb more of these other nutrients? If you have not been absorbing them properly for years, it is possible that the enzymes needed to digest these nutrients have subsided, similar to what lactase does when a person does not drink milk for years. I wonder if the reaction to other foods is just the body reacting to foods it no longer knows how to handle?

I wonder if a gradual reintroduction/rotation of foods could help. The worst scenario is that the enzyme codes are turned off permanently. My hope would be that they could be turned back on again with gradual/small introductions of problem foods. Any thoughts?

Laurie

[darlindeb25]

Your theory makes sense in some way. I have spent so long figuring out which foods bother me, I have nearly come to the conclusion that I will never eat them again. It's difficult to stay optimistic when you have lost so many foods. I worry more about losing the foods I can still have. I know that isn't the way to look at it, yet I do.

[lbd]

This is one of the reasons I have not given up dairy completely despite a casein sensitivity. I am afraid that if I gave it up completely, I would lose any tolerance for it. I have been sticking to goat/sheep milk products and that seems to be fine. I have the occasional cheese and try to use it sparingly. I did drink some kefir the other day and had a mild headache the next day, though more like the precursor to a migraine that I used to get. So I think kefir is out. I don't mind almond milk at all and use that and coconut milk for most milk replacement. I used to drink raw milk, but that is totally out now, which is sad, because it tastes so much better than pasteurized.

I think this might be why gluten becomes more of a problem in small amounts too. If your villi heal, more nutrients are absorbed, more surface area is exposed to the gluten, etc. So the reaction is greater.

I don't know that adding enzymes would help, because that might inhibit your own enzymes from kicking in again (I'm not talking about gluten enzymes here - I still think gluten is a toxin and shouldn't be eaten). I wonder if a careful reintroduction of foods (non-gluten) would help. That seems to be successful with the SCD type of diet.

I don't have any terribly bothersome sensitivities. Beans are definitely more of a problem now than before gluten-free and onions seem to be slightly troublesome. I have tried to keep these things in my diet, but on a very low and infrequent level. Oddly enough, the things I did not like as a child (beans, peanuts, onions, carrots) seem to be the most problem. I think my body knew then that I didn't do well with those things.

Laurie

[LuvMoosic4life]

I think the gradual reintroduction does work. I know that soy and dairy are a problem for me, along with nightshades, but I didnt completely give them up. Small qauntities seem to be O.K. Corn was one thing that really bothered me just after going gluten-free but now I dont have a problem. Soy seems to be much better with me also...its just concentrated amounts of dairy, like in cheese that get me..

[Judyin Philly]

Laurie,

I can over the see what answers will pop up here.

I'm always eager to hear what others experiences are.

You've read my posts on the Fine thread so won't repeat myself.

Thanks for the new thread

Judy

[lbd]

Hey, Judy, you don't live very far from me! I live in southeastern York County, PA.

I noticed that when I first cut out most of the casein-containing foods (especially milk, which I drank every day), there was an immediate relief of many symptoms. I seem to be able to handle tiny amounts now - the amounts in chocolate (thank God!), goat and sheep cheeses in small amounts, incidental amounts in mixed foods. I cannot handle large amounts of cow's milk cheeses, milk, whipped cream, etc. But I can live with that. Over use of any casein food results in breakouts, really itchy scalp, flaky skin on my face, and the ultimate migraine headache, though milder than pre-gluten-free days.

I never had problems with beans - probably because I wasn't absorbing them very well! Now, there is the obvious bean reaction. Same with onions. Again, I have been trying to use tiny amounts, in the hopes that I will find some tolerance to them again. Onions seem to be better. I'll work on the beans - kind of hard to find bean dishes with few beans

Does anyone find that some foods just no longer have the appeal they once did since going gluten-free? I have noticed that even the sight of beans makes me kind of blah. Same with yogurt - no appeal at all. Even bread and gluteny things are fast losing appeal. I still like a gluten-free cake, but I don't crave the gluteny-goodness (as my college daughter refers to them) items like I did before gluten-free.

Laurie

[Judyin Philly]

Hey, Judy, you don't live very far from me! I live in southeastern York County, PA.

I noticed that when I first cut out most of the casein-containing foods (especially milk, which I drank every day), there was an immediate relief of many symptoms.

Does anyone find that some foods just no longer have the appeal they once did since going gluten-free?

Laurie

Laurie

Pm me your town and I'll see on the map how far you really are

Patti is about 45 min but we've never hooked up yet.

yep, i can add a little cheese...........TINY AMOUNT AND SEEM TO DO OK

but casein and cheese make my fibro flare.

have you looked into the high oxalate foods?

i Know since I've been low to medium on some of those foods, I can do better and feel better.

the pumpkin in the pie this year was telling me..........."I don't like that put into my gut"

what the heck........pumpkin pie once a year.........I did it.

I still am so much better and can tolerate more foods if I've been off them for maybe 5 months.

Chocolate is still not something i can't do without consequences. Did ok with it for awhile.

seems the food journal and moderation is the key for me.

thanks for the note.

Judy

[darlindeb25]

Does anyone find that some foods just no longer have the appeal they once did since going gluten-free? I have noticed that even the sight of beans makes me kind of blah. Same with yogurt - no appeal at all. Even bread and gluteny things are fast losing appeal. I still like a gluten-free cake, but I don't crave the gluteny-goodness (as my college daughter refers to them) items like I did before gluten-free.

I never could stand the taste of yogurt. Yet, a few years ago, I decided I would try it, because it is good for us. There was a time when I couldn't stand to smell it, let alone let it touch my lips. I liked Columbo White Choc and Raspberry (when I was still in Mich), but they do not sell that brand here on Long Island. So I settled for peach, which was ok. Then cottage cheese made me sick a month or so ago, and now I can't stand yogurt again, not even the smell.

I will not give up dairy either. I do not need to eat cottage cheese, or yogurt, not even ice cream. I do add milk to my coffee, and I eat cheese every day with my apple. I bought a treat for myself of Dove Ice Cream Bars. Four in a box, and I had one each day for 4 days, and finally realized why my tummy just didn't seem right. Duh Deb!!! Last night I took a Dairy Relief tablet. Dairy is the one thing that never gave me a true problem. I did notice that I would get all stuffed up when I ate a bowl of ice cream. When I got so sick from being glutened in January, and was still sick in March, I stopped eating ice cream.

There are foods that I do not care about anymore. Then there are the ones I want so bad!!! Like mashed potaotes, I would love a plate of them, or a baked potato. Weird thing is, I can eat potato chips without a problem. I would love a hamburger, no red meat. A hot dog over an open fire! This time if year, with all the holiday foods on tv, is the hardest.

[Judyin Philly]

I stopped eating ice cream.

There are foods that I do not care about anymore. Then there are the ones I want so bad!!! Like mashed potatoes, I would love a plate of them, or a baked potato. Weird thing is, I can eat potato chips without a problem. I would love a hamburger, no red meat. A hot dog over an open fire! This time if year, with all the holiday foods on TV, is the hardest.

Deb,

Have you tried the Breyers lactose free ice cream.

i can tolerate it in tiny spaced out amounts

i use almond milk for cereal and cooking.

oh, i miss the mashed potatoes.......the white at high oxalate's..........

i can now tolerate a few now and then

i found Cascadian Farms...... ? something like that in a FF. I bake in the oven with olive oil spray on garlic/pepper on them. black pepper is H oxalate too for gods sake.

But I'll tell you 3 months of deleting HO foods, tho it left not much to eat........seemed to help me heal i THINK.

i seem to be able to add a few things back BUT.........must be the one thing a day or really spaced apart.

does this make any sense to you?

I think my daily probiotic and yeast defense supplements have helped a lot too.

Judy

[darlindeb25]

Well, if I eat one Dove bar, once in a while, they don't bother me. I haven't tried lactose free yet. I honestly fear trying anything new anymore, now does that make sense???

i seem to be able to add a few things back BUT.........must be the one thing a day or really spaced apart.

does this make any sense to you?

Yeah, it makes sense. Too much at one time would definitely cause a reaction.

I think my daily probiotic and yeast defense supplements have helped a lot too.

Probiotics always mess with me. I tried them more than once, with the same results.

[mushroom]

I wonder if a gradual reintroduction/rotation of foods could help. The worst scenario is that the enzyme codes are turned off permanently. My hope would be that they could be turned back on again with gradual/small introductions of problem foods. Any thoughts?

Laurie

My DiagnosTech results showed a very low output of pancreatic enzymes. My Nevada ND prescribed enzyme supplements, but my ND here wants me to take Dipan-9, a supplement from pig pancreas to help kick-start my own enzyme production. I have bought it but not started it yet because I seem to have problems with most supplements, and am starting (against my will, but because I have to do it before I can take Humira for my RA) a new rather nasty antibiotic regime. I will see how I go with that and probiotics and let you know how it turns out.

[lbd]

My DiagnosTech results showed a very low output of pancreatic enzymes. My Nevada ND prescribed enzyme supplements, but my ND here wants me to take Dipan-9, a supplement from pig pancreas to help kick-start my own enzyme production.

It would be interesting to do some research about whether taking enzymes kickstarts your own body's production or actually does the opposite. Your enzymes are produced in your cells. They are proteins directly coded by your DNA. From what I understand, enzyme production codes can be turned off (in the case of lactase for digesting dairy lactose, the production is coded to turn off at about the age of weaning for many people - we are not really supposed to be ingesting milk after weaning). Anyway, the question is if the enzymes have turned off because of non-use because of malabsorption, can the code be changed to turn on the production again? Does this happen with gradual reintroduction? It doesn't seem to in regards to lactose, but lactose is a nutrient we are not supposed to be ingesting later in life anyway, so may not be indicative of what happens with other nutrients.

I ate some ice cream last night (I really don't like the stuff that much, but this was chocolate fig goat's milk ice cream and it was really good). I woke up this morning with the typical shoulder/neck ache I get with ingesting casein these days. So ice cream seems to be out for now. However, my reaction to it was less so than in previous tries, so maybe gradual reintroduction will work eventually. Since casein is so similar in structure to gluten, it may be that my body will never be able to tolerate large amounts of casein again.

I'll keep experimenting and let you all know!

Laurie

[darlindeb25]

On the other hand, are we assuming that everyone's villi heals? I hate assuming anything. Doctors can't tell us that everyone heals, they don't know. Even Dr. Green says there are people that heal very quickly, some that take longer, and some may not heal properly. They average the healing time to be around 2 years.

I have to wonder, when some of us keep getting additional intolerance's, are we healing? Each intolerance must be causing damage. I find the theory that all these intolerance's were hiding behind the gluten intolerance for all those years, only to show up after the gluten is gone. That theory just does not make sense to me.

I honestly do not know anything about enzymes, no help from me there!

[lbd]

On the other hand, are we assuming that everyone's villi heals? I hate assuming anything. Doctors can't tell us that everyone heals, they don't know. Even Dr. Green says there are people that heal very quickly, some that take longer, and some may not heal properly. They average the healing time to be around 2 years.

I have to wonder, when some of us keep getting additional intolerance's, are we healing? Each intolerance must be causing damage. I find the theory that all these intolerance's were hiding behind the gluten intolerance for all those years, only to show up after the gluten is gone. That theory just does not make sense to me.

I honestly do not know anything about enzymes, no help from me there!

The whole thing is an assumption at this point, since none of us have endoscopes lying around to check what is going on. This is just a broad guess on my part. I don't think the intolerances were hiding around, but that instead, if you had a good degree of malabsorption, then you were not exposing your cells to certain nutrients/chemicals in food. With disuse, some enzymes cease production, like lactase does for lactose. Then, when the villi begin absorbing again, your cells are exposed to nutrients/chemicals they haven't been exposed to in a long time. It might take a while for the enzyme production to kick in again (best scenario) or they might never kick in again (worst scenario). Or I might be all wrong There are probably other explanations for the sensitivities, but this seems like a possibility.

I had a pretty high malabsorption score on the Enterolab tests (which I do think are valid), but according to my genetics, I am not a standard candidate for celiac disease, just gluten isensitivity, which some people think means that I could not have villi damage. I only know from my personal experiences that I seem to be healthier now, that B12 has done a lot of good, and that I react stronger to gluten and casein than I did before, so I am assuming (there's that word again) that I am absorbing nutrients better than before.

It's all a hypothesis, and I have no way to test it out other than personal experiences, which in science don't count for much.

Laurie

[Cinnamon]

This is an interesting question and one I've been wondering about as well. But I was wondering what the role inflammatory cytokines play in the development of other intolerances. I was thinking that after years of being on high alert, our immune systems can't just relax and go back to normal when we finally take gluten out of our diets. I don't think the inflammatory cytokines go away. There are many kinds of cytokines and they're necessary for modulating the immune system, but some cause problems and inflammation.

I was thinking if there was some way to decrease the inflammatory cytokines but keep the good ones, that might be the way to go. I read that N-acetyl-cysteine is supposed to upregulate the good guys but lower some of the bad guys, so I tried it to see what would happen. But it gave me really bad heartburn and indigestion, so I had to stop, so don't know if it would help.

I don't think I explained this very well and I'm not very knowledgeable about these things. It's tough slogging through some of these research papers, too. But it's really fascinating to me. What do you think?

[lbd]

This is an interesting question and one I've been wondering about as well. But I was wondering what the role inflammatory cytokines play in the development of other intolerances. I was thinking that after years of being on high alert, our immune systems can't just relax and go back to normal when we finally take gluten out of our diets. I don't think the inflammatory cytokines go away. There are many kinds of cytokines and they're necessary for modulating the immune system, but some cause problems and inflammation.

I was thinking if there was some way to decrease the inflammatory cytokines but keep the good ones, that might be the way to go. I read that N-acetyl-cysteine is supposed to upregulate the good guys but lower some of the bad guys, so I tried it to see what would happen. But it gave me really bad heartburn and indigestion, so I had to stop, so don't know if it would help.

I don't think I explained this very well and I'm not very knowledgeable about these things. It's tough slogging through some of these research papers, too. But it's really fascinating to me. What do you think?

You may well be right, Cinnamon. The immune system is so complex. I took a grad course in Infection and Immunity and all of the players in the system are so interconnected - cytokines, antibodies, antigens, immune cells. I don't think even the best informed immunologist researchers know everything about how the immune system works.

I think that you may be right that in our systems exposed to the toxin gluten, we are on high alert. That alone may explain the reactions to other foods once gluten is removed. So the question might be how to calm the immune system like you said. Is it the cytokines which communicate and "rally the troops" to respond, or the responder antibodies themselves, or the enzymes coded to help digest the nutrients, or the receptors in the cell membranes that receive the signals from all of these?

Laurie

[Cinnamon]

They have a variety of functions. Here's a chart that shows what each one does:

Open Original Shared Link

You're right, it's very complicated, and it's probably foolish to play the armchair scientist. But it's very interesting!

[mftnchn]

I have to wonder, when some of us keep getting additional intolerance's, are we healing? Each intolerance must be causing damage. I find the theory that all these intolerance's were hiding behind the gluten intolerance for all those years, only to show up after the gluten is gone. That theory just does not make sense to me.

Interesting discussion here. I do think there is the potential of "hiding" though, Deb. Over time since going gluten-free what I have realized is that my immune system was repressed, and it has been waking up so to speak.

Years ago I had lots of allergic reactions to foods and environmental allergens. Then it got better, and was easier to live with for many years. I treated too, so still take 5 allergy shots a week (environmental stuff). During this time, other symptoms got worse; fatigue, brain fog, weight gain, muscle and joint pain (lyme related), etc.

This last year since gluten-free, I have had a lot more strong reactions. Reactions to my shots every season change, for example. The last two days huge reactions to the bad atmosphere in the city I am in for 2 weeks (where before I would get fatigued but not strong reactions). So I think the immune response can get repressed so that the reactions don't show up, and that now my system is reacting much more clearly, like it used to when I first got ill. (I'm doing other things for healing various issues besides gluten-free, by the way.)

There's an example of this with immuno-repressed patients (like after a transplant). They get colds or infections, and don't show much symptoms. Also, being a lyme patient, I have noticed other lyme patients talking about "not getting colds", and I have been that way too. They talk about getting colds as a sign of improvement.

[Amber M]

The whole thing is an assumption at this point, since none of us have endoscopes lying around to check what is going on. This is just a broad guess on my part. I don't think the intolerances were hiding around, but that instead, if you had a good degree of malabsorption, then you were not exposing your cells to certain nutrients/chemicals in food. With disuse, some enzymes cease production, like lactase does for lactose. Then, when the villi begin absorbing again, your cells are exposed to nutrients/chemicals they haven't been exposed to in a long time. It might take a while for the enzyme production to kick in again (best scenario) or they might never kick in again (worst scenario). Or I might be all wrong There are probably other explanations for the sensitivities, but this seems like a possibility.

I had a pretty high malabsorption score on the Enterolab tests (which I do think are valid), but according to my genetics, I am not a standard candidate for celiac disease, just gluten isensitivity, which some people think means that I could not have villi damage. I only know from my personal experiences that I seem to be healthier now, that B12 has done a lot of good, and that I react stronger to gluten and casein than I did before, so I am assuming (there's that word again) that I am absorbing nutrients better than before.

It's all a hypothesis, and I have no way to test it out other than personal experiences, which in science don't count for much.

Laurie

Wow! This whole page was very interesting. I have been wondering about this all myself. I have been reading so much research on all of this, I can not recall everything but the one thing that sticks every time is the fact that, way back, once upon a time, our human bodies were not meant to eat gluten or cow's milk. I have read the whole evolution of these things and many others in our diet and it makes sense. I have the gluten sensitive genes and have gluten ataxia and lower colon problems. I have been gluten free since end of July of this year. My lactose test says I am okay, but if it hadn't I was going to keep dairy is less amounts and take enzymes for that too.

I have been allergic to soy for years, so that was out already, and if I slip now I pay dearly. It is much worse a reaction. Beans are out, have been for years. All of the sudden I have a problem from peanut butter, never had before. Basically, to much of anything seems to put me over the edge. I am also afraid to try anything new too. I am feeling like I can't eat much with out a problem right now. I did start "Digest" enzymes a few months ago because I had read that "Acid Reducer" pills taken long term (had taken for over 5 years) were what caused the production of needed enzymes to dissappear. I went off the stomach pills "cold turkey" right after starting the enzymes and suffered with heart burn off and on for about 2 weeks, then suddenly, I hardly have that anymore. I read that you do not have to stay on the enzymes forever, and something about your own coming back. It seemed to be related to the acid reducers used though.

I can not digest any grains right now except rice, (flour) and Pamala's Pancake mix. I also find that I do not crave gluten stuff like I did before. I found out that chocolate is totally out. What I have discovered this last few months is these instant reactions when I eat something my body does not accept. This had occured for years and I never made the connection:

I get instant cancer sores while I am eating, or a very sore mouth. On each side of my neck, like down the arteries, glands, ear tubes, what ever it is I'm not sure, but its a funny kind of pain almost like I ate a lemon in the neck. Does that make sense to anyone? Then of course it turns into a week long bout of neurological and physical symptoms afterwards. I am learning to pay very close attention to this and stop eating it immedietly.

Another thing I noticed is soy seems to give me a "gluten" reaction now. This is all so confusing sometimes. I find myself reading the same labels 50 times because I am constantly trying to pinpoint "what now" has caused a reaction.

One thing that irks me all to death is the fact that if you are gluten sensitive (me) and your celiac test come back negative, some people do not understand that it is just as serious and causes many forms of damage the same way as celiacs including gluten ataxia (very serious). Had I gone by my celiacs test and not had the gene testing or done the "challenge diet" through my allergist, I would have continued to poison myself. So many doctors do not deal with it unless it is Celiacs as a diagnosis. There isn't any test other than the gene test for that, and Insurances don't pay (most) for it.

There is a family near by me that has one diagnosed celiac and several sick members that had celiac negative tests and think they are okay. I feel like there is just not enough information on the sensitivity out there.

We will see in the end that all auto-immune diseases and many other health problems are coming from the food we eat. I believe, (maybe not in our lives) that gene testing will be the key to all preventative medicine and insurance companys will come to realize they will save billions by doing it. If we knew ahead of time what our "map" was, just think of what we could avoid! Like the old saying goes., "We are what we eat!!!"

Well thanks for hearing my input on this. Amber

[CMCM]

At the point where I got diagnosed, I felt like there was NOTHING I could eat without digestive upset, headaches or both. After 6 or so months gluten and dairy free, I realized most of the other things didn't affect me much, if at all, but only if I ate them occasionally and not daily. I am also casein sensitive, but I can tolerate a small amount of dairy every other day or so. Nightshades can be a problem, so they are also occasional. Ditto corn, also beans. Overall, I just rotate most foods as much as I can, keeping 3 or 4 days or more between eating a certain item. This works fairly well for me now.