Reverse-Engineering Udi's Bread

[RiceGuy]

Whipped meringue powder per directions until stiff peaks were formed and folded dry ingredients into egg whites.

Let it rise (until 1 1/2 times it's original size) & baked in a preheated oven.

On one hand, it browned nicely and the inside was baked into a reasonable texture, no gummy layer at the bottom. On the other hand, it did not rise nearly the height of the store-bought bread.

Does it need more yeast? Warmer water? Longer rise time? Any ideas?

So, the only water was for the meringue powder, yes?

Just to be clear, 1 1/2 times the height would be a 50% increase. So if the dough started out at 2 inches high, it would have risen to 3 inches. Is that what you mean? If so, it didn't rise enough. Some suggest to let the dough double in height. While I haven't gotten quite that much without a subsequent fall, I also don't use starches. So it might be possible with this recipe. But I'd think it should be able to get at least 75%-80%.

How much time was it given to rise? At what temp was it kept while rising? How much higher did it rise once baked? Did it shrink back down any, either towards the end of baking or as it cooled?

[Roda]

I'm in no way an accomplished gluten free bread maker. Just recently I have decided to try and make some using different recipes I find. I used the original posted recipe with a reduction in the water and I thew the dough away without baking it. It never did rise. My yeast was fine because I used it to make other bread and it raised nicely. I probably won't try again. I did find a recipe that I liked for toasting though. Good luck to all of you for trying to recreate this!! If it was not for you guys experimenting, someone like me would be clueless.

[Maggie Mermaid]

So, the only water was for the meringue powder, yes?

Just to be clear, 1 1/2 times the height would be a 50% increase. So if the dough started out at 2 inches high, it would have risen to 3 inches. Is that what you mean? If so, it didn't rise enough. Some suggest to let the dough double in height. While I haven't gotten quite that much without a subsequent fall, I also don't use starches. So it might be possible with this recipe. But I'd think it should be able to get at least 75%-80%.

How much time was it given to rise? At what temp was it kept while rising? How much higher did it rise once baked? Did it shrink back down any, either towards the end of baking or as it cooled?

Yes, the only water was for the meringue powder. 10 TBSP = 1/2 C. plus 2 TBPS water. At least volume-wise, it's a bit more than the largest amount of dried ingredient. So, on the label, it would be the first ingredient on the list.

Hmm, I didn't let up double because I was aware that it might fall later. I thought it might rise when it was baking in a pre-heated oven. It seemed to by a bit. But definitely did not shrink down towards the end of baking or cooling. The crust was sturdy & lightly browned, similar to the store-bought.

It rose for about 1.5 hours at about 80 degrees temp, maybe warmer.

Thoughts? More yeast? More rising time? Couple TBSP more water?

[RiceGuy]

Yes, the only water was for the meringue powder. 10 TBSP = 1/2 C. plus 2 TBPS water. At least volume-wise, it's a bit more than the largest amount of dried ingredient. So, on the label, it would be the first ingredient on the list.

Hmm, I didn't let up double because I was aware that it might fall later. I thought it might rise when it was baking in a pre-heated oven. It seemed to by a bit. But definitely did not shrink down towards the end of baking or cooling. The crust was sturdy & lightly browned, similar to the store-bought.

It rose for about 1.5 hours at about 80 degrees temp, maybe warmer.

Thoughts? More yeast? More rising time? Couple TBSP more water?

When I bake bread, it never continues to rise for 1.5 hours. Usually not much over 45-50 minutes. After which, if it rises any more it will be very slow, but usually it doesn't. I guess the yeast run out of sugars and just stop multiplying. If I wait too long after that, it seems to subtract from any rise it might get when baked. I don't add sugar, so perhaps that would give the yeast more time to rise. I will experiment with that. I have noticed that more yeast will give it more rise time, as well as a quicker rise. Too much will make the bread taste too yeasty though.

You could try more yeast - say about 1-1/2 tsp, but I'd think more than that would be too yeasty. At least it would for me.

I do think it needed a higher temp for rising though. While I don't have a thermometer to test it, I think the warm setting of my oven, which I use to raise bread, is about 90-100°F. I read someplace that yeast can tolerate 110-130°F, above which they'll die.

It might have needed a little more water. Only you can say for sure how stiff the dough was. An earlier description was of stiff mashed potatoes, which sounds about right from my experience. I think cream cheese at room temp might be a good description too, though I must admit it's been awhile since I've seen softened cream cheese, and I've never tried mixing it LOL. Solid pack canned pumpkin might be similar as well.

Yesterday I experimented with a higher starch content than I usually do. It did rise double, with some additional height when baked, and didn't seem to shrink much if any. So that suggests to me that a starchy one such as Udi's should rise at least double.

[RiceGuy]

I'm in no way an accomplished gluten free bread maker. Just recently I have decided to try and make some using different recipes I find. I used the original posted recipe with a reduction in the water and I thew the dough away without baking it. It never did rise. My yeast was fine because I used it to make other bread and it raised nicely. I probably won't try again. I did find a recipe that I liked for toasting though. Good luck to all of you for trying to recreate this!! If it was not for you guys experimenting, someone like me would be clueless.

There's no reason to throw out the dough! You might have just added some extra baking powder, and made it a quick-bread. It might have also worked for pizza crust, or just added another tsp of yeast and given it another chance to rise.

My guess is that the dough was too stiff, or the temp while it was supposed to rise wasn't right. Sorry to hear it didn't turn out. But, don't be discouraged. We all have things flop now and then. This is one reason why I decided from the start to test recipe ideas in very small batches. Rather than try baking an entire loaf, only to have it fail, I use just enough for a small roll/bun/biscuit.

[RiceGuy]

Fourth or maybe fifth attempt results based on the above recipe but attempting to use meringue powder instead of dried egg whites with the following changes:

1/2 C Tapioca Flour/Starch

1/4 C + 1/2 Tbsp Rice Flour, brown

3 Tbsp Potato Starch (decreased to 2 1/2 TBSP because meringue powder has cornstarch as it's first ingredient)

1-1/2 Tbsp Vegetable Oil

3 Egg Whites, large (used 10 tsp meringue powder which is equivalent to 5 egg whites)

1-1/2 Tbsp Sugar (left out because meringue powder has sugar listed as it's 3rd ingredient, egg whites were 2nd)

1 tsp Yeast

3/4 tsp Xanthan Gum

1/2 tsp Salt

1/2 tsp Baking Powder

3/4 C Water (used 10 TBSP water because meringue powder required 2 TBSP water per 2 tsp meringue powder to equal 1 egg white)

(Added 1 tsp. apple cider vinegar to replace ascorbic acid which was on bread wrapper label)

Whipped meringue powder per directions until stiff peaks were formed and folded dry ingredients into egg whites.

Let it rise (until 1 1/2 times it's original size) & baked in a preheated oven.

On one hand, it browned nicely and the inside was baked into a reasonable texture, no gummy layer at the bottom. On the other hand, it did not rise nearly the height of the store-bought bread.

Does it need more yeast? Warmer water? Longer rise time? Any ideas?

Hmmm...

It occurs to me that 1 tsp apple cider vinegar is probably too much for this recipe. Too much acidity will inhibit or kill the yeast. Try 1/4 tsp instead, no more than maybe 1/2 tsp.

[Maggie Mermaid]

Hmmm...

It occurs to me that 1 tsp apple cider vinegar is probably too much for this recipe. Too much acidity will inhibit or kill the yeast. Try 1/4 tsp instead, no more than maybe 1/2 tsp.

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing about changing the amount of apple cider vinegar for the next attempt. And also adding water in a TBSP at a time to the suggested consistency.

The texture inside this loaf was more similar to the store-bought than my earlier attempts. At least slicing it horizontally gave me 4 "slices" to use.

[Roda]

There's no reason to throw out the dough! You might have just added some extra baking powder, and made it a quick-bread. It might have also worked for pizza crust, or just added another tsp of yeast and given it another chance to rise.

My guess is that the dough was too stiff, or the temp while it was supposed to rise wasn't right. Sorry to hear it didn't turn out. But, don't be discouraged. We all have things flop now and then. This is one reason why I decided from the start to test recipe ideas in very small batches. Rather than try baking an entire loaf, only to have it fail, I use just enough for a small roll/bun/biscuit.

Please forgive me if I sound stupid. I got to looking at the original amounts in the recipe. Is this just enough to make the small roll/bun/biscuit? If so that could explain why the dough did not do much in the loaf pan.

[RiceGuy]

Please forgive me if I sound stupid. I got to looking at the original amounts in the recipe. Is this just enough to make the small roll/bun/biscuit? If so that could explain why the dough did not do much in the loaf pan.

The amounts I worked out for the recipe are only to approximate Udi's recipe, in terms of nutrients. It does seem on the low side for a whole loaf, however, Udi's loaf is pretty small. I think it's supposed to yield 12 slices, which I'd have to guess are rather small. An entire Udi's loaf is 12oz.

When I experiment with a bread recipe, I generally use between 4 and 8 Tbsp of flour, depending on what I'm doing with it. I usually use a small round pyrex dish, which is perfect for rolls and buns. Being able to see the progress without disturbing it or even opening the oven is a real plus.

[RiceGuy]

After some experimentation with a somewhat more starchy recipe than I usually use, I've learned a few things which might be helpful here.

The dough does rise to double without falling later, and it has been taking about 60-70 minutes to reach that height. When baked, it does rise a bit more. And although the finished height is taller, it seems that allowing less rise before baking tends to make it rise more during baking. To put it another way, it appears that the closer the dough gets to its maximum height before baking, the less additional it will gain during baking. I believe this is because the over-stretched structure begins to lose integrity, and the expanding air leaks out. When the dough is denser, it has farther to stretch before that occurs. One constant is that too much rise before baking will cause it to sink a bit while baking. So it seems the key is to let it rise to near the maximum height, but not quite that much, so that it achieves the final amount during baking, without going too far.

I've also observed a small reduction in height as the bread cools, which I suppose is because air condenses as it cools. But if the bread really sinks in as it cools, it has always been because of too much moisture.

I tried adding some agave (I don't use sugar, thus don't have any), but all it did was make the bread sweeter, and cause it to stick to the dish. I didn't see any effect on the rise time, though I can't rule out it might be different with ordinary sugar.

Since the breads I've baked using less starch content would reach maximum height in less than an hour, it stands to reason that the amount of time allowed for rising is related to the percentage of starch. Udi's is even higher in starch than my latest experiments, so I'd not be surprised if more than 70 minutes of rise time is optimum.

[halfrunner]

I tried something to tweak the bread today. DH wanted me to try and do something about the dryness because he likes untoasted bread better for sandwiches. So instead of pitching the egg yolks, I mixed them into the batter before I added the egg whites. DH tasted the bread when I cut it and said it is the closest bread to a homemade wheat bread that I've attempted. (Which for him is a very high compliment, since he still idolizes that awful wonder type bread. I didn't grow up with it, so I find it pretty repulsive.)

The next batch I'm going to try with all 4 egg yolks just to see what it does.

Also, I found that the batter in general is much easier to mix if you beat the egg whites first and THEN mix the rest of the dough. It doesn't have time to "set" and get really, really thick. This seems to have really increased the air bubbly texture of the bread.

[RiceGuy]

I may have to take back what I said about the rise time. I just started using a brand new package of yeast, and wow, it has cut the rise time by nearly half! Same type, same brand. The only difference is that it's newer. So now, what usually would take about 70 minutes, now takes about 35. I suspect that the last few experiments were taking longer only because I was nearing the bottom of the previous container of yeast. Although, I don't recall such a quick rise when that package was new, so perhaps it was already somewhat stale when I got it. In any case, this just emphasizes that the time required to rise the dough can vary quite a lot, and we shouldn't think something is wrong if our experience doesn't match that of someone else.

What this appears to also be effecting, is how far to let it rise before baking. Since it rises so fast, the time it takes for the dough to heat up enough to kill the yeast allows for some additional rise. I should note here that because my oven has a warm setting which I use for rising the dough, I don't preheat the oven before baking. Rather, I just remove the cover from the pan, and start the bake cycle. The time required for the oven to heat up is therefor a factor as well.

The first time I used some yeast from the new package, I was caught by surprise, and the dough rose too high, subsequently falling as it baked. Obviously, I can just use less yeast if I want to extend the rise time. I do notice a bit more yeast taste too, which is only logical I suppose.

[sa1937]

I have found this thread to be really interesting as several of you have experimented with making yeast breads.

In Elizabeth Barbone's book Easy Gluten Free Baking, she recommends using a digital instant read thermometer to check the doneness of yeast breads...it should reach an internal temperature of 208

[Black Sheep]

OK, loaf number 5 today. I did the white bread again, used a little less water than called for, let it rise to the top of the pan, baked at 350 for 35 minutes. It fell in the middle again It was however, delicious, and my son devoured the whole loaf.

NOTE TO ALL: I am not an accomplished baker! I've tried the recipe with more egg whites and more water, but I can't get this one not to fall. It comes out of the oven beautiful, then it falls. Any tips would be appreciated!

Well, since this looks like a fairly old thread, maybe by now you've perfected it. If so, then disregard! But if not....o.k., I'm not sure this will help, since it appears you're not using yeast in this bread. But baking powder is a leavening agent, so maybe the theory would work...just have to try it and see, I guess, unless we have any chemistry wiz's out there!

See, even before going g.f., the last several loaves of reg. bread I baked all had the same weird "falling" problem you've had. I'd peek at them in the oven and they were beautiful; then when it was time to take them out, forget it. Fallen. And no one seemed to know why, not even my Super Bread Making aunt! So, when my doc first told me to go g.f., just over a month ago, I got out a g.f. baking cookbook I had bought at a yard sale, "just out of curiosity". Yeah, right, I think I've suspected for a long, long time I have a problem with gluten! Anyway, the book was, "The Gluten-Free Gourmet Bakes Bread" or something, by Bette Hagman. I never did use any of her recipes, as it's an old book and all her recipes call for bean flour, but in the beginning of the book was a lot of good advice and info re. baking with g.f. flours. And there it was, the answer to my dilemma--I was letting the bread rise too much.

Wow, how simple was that? And yet, no one suspected it. According to the author, when you let your bread rise, it should only about double--no more--before you toss it in the oven (and make sure your oven has come to temp. first). The reason, she says, is because if you let it sit there and rise and rise, like city high-rise architects competing with one another (my words there, not hers), then the yeast will have done all it's work before the loaf even makes it to the oven. And once it's done working, that's it--so there's no leavening power there to keep the top up, so to speak, once it's popped into the oven. So the top falls. I'm telling you, my jaw hit the floor when I read that! A few days later, I baked my first loaf of g.f. bread from scratch, no mixes--and it was perfect. I've baked several others since then, all perfect.

Now again, she is talking about yeast breads here. So I don't know if the same holds true for other types of leavening, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try.

[Black Sheep]

I'm such a dork! I just now noticed Rice Guy's post, don't know how I missed it!

Sorry Rice Guy, you basically said the same thing, I think. Didn't mean to parrot you.

[Black Sheep]

I have found this thread to be really interesting as several of you have experimented with making yeast breads.

In Elizabeth Barbone's book Easy Gluten Free Baking, she recommends using a digital instant read thermometer to check the doneness of yeast breads...it should reach an internal temperature of 208

[RiceGuy]

I'm certain that the optimal internal temperature will vary depending on the recipe. Not all flours function the same way, and the amount of water in the dough also effects baking time and temp. There are some recipes for more rustic loaves which call for the loaf pan to be inside a large pot, with some water in it, and a cover, and baked at over 400 degrees.

[sa1937]

Referring back to Elizabeth Barbone's book, all her yeast bread recipes suggest baking to an internal temp of 208

[Maggie Mermaid]

Referring back to Elizabeth Barbone's book, all her yeast bread recipes suggest baking to an internal temp of 208

[Ginsou]

Last summer I picked up a Taylor digital instant thermometer in Lowe's, which I found in the section where they sell grills and various grill accessories. Don't know if it would work for bread but I'll give it a shot. I think it cost around $15 and I looked several times before I could commit to spending the money...alas, like so many other things I have, it has not yet been used.

In the next few days I hope to try her recipe for Easy Sandwich Bread, which I think is the only yeast bread recipe for which I have all of the ingredients. If it doesn't turn out, I need some bread crumbs.

The digital thermometers are pricey, I also hesitated before buying one......it was worth every cent, and I will buy another one to keep in the motorhome. I have the one that has a metal probe with a wire attached, and is connected to the case that has the digital printout and has an alarm that goes off when the correct temp is reached. There are also remote units available. Mine was purchased at Bed Bath and Beyond, and I used a coupon to bring the price down a bit. I use it mainly for cooking roasts to perfection. Our local Walmart has a less expensive one, but at the time I needed it, WM did not carry it. I wish I had purchased one years ago.I used it once to bake a loaf of bread (190 degrees was recommended) and the bread was a success.

[karin]

Hey, I have never replied to anything like this, but we just started eating Udis (we're on our second box of 8) Okay, I can bake anything with wheat, but i think you all know that celiac baking is not really baking, it's more like mixed up science with harry potter thrown in. But I have really been thinking about this "udi" success and I think they use powdered egg whites. Also, about the rising falling pouff! I've had that happen on occasion and I think that it is the ratio of starch/rice. What about less starch and more rice. Finally, I agree about the dough comment, it's not a batter.

[Krystyn41]

Hi! I was very happy to see there was a post concerning Udi's bread. I had it for the first time 2 days ago at a place called "Jason's Deli" in Lafayette, LA. I couldn't believe it! Great gluten-free bread on a sandwich! I read all the postings and attempted my own Udi's bread. Of course, no luck so far, but we have to keep trying!!

This is what I did:

1 cup brown rice flour

1/2 cup of corn starch

1/2 cup tapioco flour

1/3 cup buckwheat

1/3 cup flaxseed

1/3 cup whole millet

2/3 cup of water

1 tsp apple cider vinegar

1 tablespoon of baking powder

1 1/2 tsp of xantham

1 tsp of salt

3 whole eggs

2 tsps of yeast

1 1/2 tablespoon's of sugar

1/2 tsp of creme of tartar

1 1/2 tablesp of olive oil

350 degrees for 35 minutes

The finished product came out about 3 1/2" high. It didn't "fall" but I noticed that it didn't rise much either after I placed it in the oven. I placed all the flours in a bowl, the baking powder, xantham gum and mixed with portable mixer. In a 2 cup container I placed the warmed water, the yeast and the sugar and let it rise. In another bowl i beat the eggwhites till stiff then added the creme of tartare and beat a bit more. I then turned on the oven and waited till the bread rose. 40 minutes later I then added the egg yokes, the salt, the vinegar and the oil and the water and yeast and incorporated it all into the flour. I folded in the eggwhites last. I plopped it all into the bread container and placed it into the oven (it was an hour at this point). 35 minutes later I took it out after checking the inside temp, it was 210 degrees.

Assessment:

Udi's bread has a lot of holes in it!! I think I will attempt to use 4 tsps of yeast the next time!! Also my bread was a small loaf (ya'lls must have been smaller) and I generally use 2 cups of flour to 1 cup of starch. The bread had a nice crust on top, but was dense and yellow. So, Udi's bread doesn't use the egg yellow (or maybe just one yellow. Udi's bread looks like it is plopped down on a flat board but manages to keep it's shape without flattening out. I definitely needed a bread pan because it was kinda runny. This is why I think I will use less water next time because the egg whites gave it a lot of liquid. However, Udi's bread is not dense like mine is. The denseness of the bread is the main thing I am trying to fix! Also, ya'll don't use 1 tablespoon of baking powder (or maybe use less salt) because both together were too salty! I just toasted my bread and it stays together nicely. I found that interesting that Udi's bread cannot be toasted, it falls apart! I definitely believe the reason it falls apart is because of the numerous holes. Also, I thought I might "beat" the finished product also (before folding in the egg whites).

Kris

[karenhockley]

Has anyone tried making the bagels? My son and I miss them terribly. I have noticed that everyone has commented that there is too much water in the bread recipe, should I just assume it's the same with the bagels? Well I'll be trying them out tomorrow.

[Krystyn41]

Hi! I was very happy to see there was a post concerning Udi's bread. I had it for the first time 2 days ago at a place called "Jason's Deli" in Lafayette, LA. I couldn't believe it! Great gluten-free bread on a sandwich! I read all the postings and attempted my own Udi's bread. Of course, no luck so far, but we have to keep trying!!

This is what I did:

1 cup brown rice flour

1/2 cup of corn starch

1/2 cup tapioco flour

1/3 cup buckwheat

1/3 cup flaxseed

1/3 cup whole millet

2/3 cup of water

1 tsp apple cider vinegar

1 tablespoon of baking powder

1 1/2 tsp of xantham

1 tsp of salt

3 whole eggs

2 tsps of yeast

1 1/2 tablespoon's of sugar

1/2 tsp of creme of tartar

1 1/2 tablesp of olive oil

350 degrees for 35 minutes

The finished product came out about 3 1/2" high. It didn't "fall" but I noticed that it didn't rise much either after I placed it in the oven. I placed all the flours in a bowl, the baking powder, xantham gum and mixed with portable mixer. In a 2 cup container I placed the warmed water, the yeast and the sugar and let it rise. In another bowl i beat the eggwhites till stiff then added the creme of tartare and beat a bit more. I then turned on the oven and waited till the bread rose. 40 minutes later I then added the egg yokes, the salt, the vinegar and the oil and the water and yeast and incorporated it all into the flour. I folded in the eggwhites last. I plopped it all into the bread container and placed it into the oven (it was an hour at this point). 35 minutes later I took it out after checking the inside temp, it was 210 degrees.

Assessment:

Udi's bread has a lot of holes in it!! I think I will attempt to use 4 tsps of yeast the next time!! Also my bread was a small loaf (ya'lls must have been smaller) and I generally use 2 cups of flour to 1 cup of starch. The bread had a nice crust on top, but was dense and yellow. So, Udi's bread doesn't use the egg yellow (or maybe just one yellow. Udi's bread looks like it is plopped down on a flat board but manages to keep it's shape without flattening out. I definitely needed a bread pan because it was kinda runny. This is why I think I will use less water next time because the egg whites gave it a lot of liquid. However, Udi's bread is not dense like mine is. The denseness of the bread is the main thing I am trying to fix! Also, ya'll don't use 1 tablespoon of baking powder (or maybe use less salt) because both together were too salty! I just toasted my bread and it stays together nicely. I found that interesting that Udi's bread cannot be toasted, it falls apart! I definitely believe the reason it falls apart is because of the numerous holes. Also, I thought I might "beat" the finished product also (before folding in the egg whites).

Kris

I ended up baking it again but I didn't keep track of the time and it came out very well baked and plopped right out of the pan. Trying to emulate UDI's is not gonna be easy..

[halfrunner]

I'm starting to think that I'm a glutton for punishment. I was thinking about the mock udi's bread recipe that I came up with after toying with my german puffy pancake recipe. So I pulled out my gluten-free bread supplies and my recipe.

Here's the latest version, which created more air holes than my previous version. When placed next to the real Udi's the air holes are very comparable in size, and the bread's texture is pretty close to the original. My version is a tad more dense/gummy than the original, but tastes pretty close. I'm about 1000 ft. above sea level.

I used a 50/50 combination of rice flour and buckwheat. You can't tell that there is buckwheat in the bread, and I replaced a half a tablespoon of oil with one egg yolk in the second test batch just to see what happened. It didn't alter the texture any, but the loaf did get a tad bit more golden brown than the other batch.

Revised Mock Udi's bread:

3 c. rice flour (or a combination of buckwheat and rice flour)

3/4 c. (potato, corn, or tapioca) starch

4 tsp. xanthan gum

4 tsp. salt

6 tsp. yeast

4 tbsp. oil

3 tbsp. sugar

4 tsp. baking powder

2 1/2 tsp. dough enhancer or vinegar

approximately 3 c. water (divided into 1 and 2 cups)

8 egg whites

1 tsp cream of tartar

First, let yeast dissolve with sugar and 1 cup of water, let sit while you whip the egg whites.

Whip the egg white to stiff peaks, adding the cream of tartar as the egg whites begin to turn white. Set aside.

Combine dry ingredients and add to the yeast mixture, oil, and about 1 1/2 cups of the remaining water. Stir well to combine, add in a bit more water as needed to make the dough soft enough to resemble cookie dough.

Fold in egg whites a quarter at a time, gently folding until well combined, then adding more egg whites. Once all the egg whites are incorporated, gently scoop/"pour" batter into 2 well greased loaf pans.

Let rise in a warm place for 30 minutes, then bake at 350 degrees for 30-35 minutes until golden brown all over.