New Twist On The Vinegar Debate.

[WheatChef]

Well, possibly new. Turns out that many types of wine are not gluten free. Oak barrel wines from europe often use a cask that has a piece of it sealed in with wheat flour. In America a different sort of seal is used on the barrels made here, however many upscale brands of wine will purchase an old used cask from europe to gain the benefit of the different flavor it imparts (preseasoned and using different wood). Now with something like white vinegar it's distilled and we don't worry about the gluten in it. But with something like red wine vinegar it's simply a form of aged red wine.

If the manufacturer uses red wine that has been produced in a european cask to create their red wine vinegar, does this not mean it's potentially contaminated?

Additionally traditional balsamic vinegar is aged in many different european casks during production. Does this mean only the super cheap balsamic vinegar is safe?

Most of the stuff I've read claiming that both of these products are safe only say so because they don't contain any added gluten ingredients. Are they simply not understanding the production process?

[mushroom]

Wheatcchef, we had a discussion on the wheat paste/oak barrel issue a ways back. You will find it here:

[Lisa]

I would like to know what wines are NOT gluten free? What balsamic vinegars are not gluten free?

If you have supportive evidence, please post it.

It's always hard to deal with this diet, but no need to make it harder than it is already.

[JNBunnie1]

  On 5/1/2010 at 1:05 AM, Lisa said:

I would like to know what wines are NOT gluten free? What balsamic vinegars are not gluten free?

If you have supportive evidence, please post it.

It's always hard to deal with this diet, but no need to make it harder than it is already.

I suppose the supportive evidence would be that we know for a fact some wines are aged in flour sealed barrels, and that we don't know where the wine in red wine vinegar is aged. It seems to me that each person would have to check each brand of wine vinegar, the same way we check brands of wine.

I watched an episode of Dirty Jobs with Mike Rowe a while back, and he was at a barrel-making facility where they did indeed use flour paste to seal the barrels. So it's not only done in France, it's not only old barrels. It is a current, common thing, that we need to be aware of.

[Lisa]

  On 5/2/2010 at 4:33 PM, JNBunnie1 said:

I suppose the supportive evidence would be that we know for a fact some wines are aged in flour sealed barrels, and that we don't know where the wine in red wine vinegar is aged. It seems to me that each person would have to check each brand of wine vinegar, the same way we check brands of wine.

I watched an episode of Dirty Jobs with Mike Rowe a while back, and he was at a barrel-making facility where they did indeed use flour paste to seal the barrels. So it's not only done in France, it's not only old barrels. It is a current, common thing, that we need to be aware of.

BUT, after the sealing process, they are rinsed and rinsed and rinsed. Most likely to the point that minuscule, if any, residual gluten remains in the barrel. (according to what I have read, and it's been an active topic here in the past.)

Don't you think if wine were a danger to those with Celiac or a gluten intolerance, the support associations would indicate so. I have never seen documented evidence that shows otherwise.

Some people have difficulties with particular wines, but I doubt you could trace it back to gluten.

But, on the other hand, if you don't get pleasure out of wine, don't drink it. Pretty simple.

[Jestgar]

I would think that any residual flour in the barrels would ferment, thereby changing the taste of the wine. I can't imagine that expensive winemakers would be willing to compromise their product by allowing insufficiently rinsed barrels. Has nothing to do with gluten, it's all about the money......

[Gemini]

  On 5/2/2010 at 7:41 PM, Lisa said:

BUT, after the sealing process, they are rinsed and rinsed and rinsed. Most likely to the point that minuscule, if any, residual gluten remains in the barrel. (according to what I have read, and it's been an active topic here in the past.)

Don't you think if wine were a danger to those with Celiac or a gluten intolerance, the support associations would indicate so. I have never seen documented evidence that shows otherwise.

Some people have difficulties with particular wines, but I doubt you could trace it back to gluten.

But, on the other hand, if you don't get pleasure out of wine, don't drink it. Pretty simple.

I agree completely, Lisa, but then I would as we share the same name!

I drink a glass of red wine every night with my dinner and use balsamic vinegar every day in salads....and I mean every day. As one of those severe Celiac cases, I would not be at the point of recovery I am today if the rumor of the contaminated barrels had any merit. If something is rinsed well enough, there should be no problem for a Celiac and if there were, it would be stated as such on any of the health sites regarding Celiac Disease. I know it's hard to sift through the truth vs. urban legend with regards to this disease but if you use multiple, reputable sources and add in personal experience, you can figure it out.

[RideAllWays]

This is interesting to me... last night I had my stabbing pains, throwing up with simultaneous D (pleasant, I know..) and all the other symptoms. I tracked my food back for the last couple days and the only thing new I had introduced what a red wine. I'll have to check the bottle again and see where it was from, but I do recall bloating after drinking it, but then the rest of the symptoms came hours later. I read last night that all wines were gluten free, but maybe that is not the case?

[Lisa]

  On 5/3/2010 at 4:02 PM, Gemini said:

I agree completely, Lisa, but then I would as we share the same name!

Nice to finally know that!

[Gemini]

  On 5/3/2010 at 4:07 PM, RideAllWays said:

This is interesting to me... last night I had my stabbing pains, throwing up with simultaneous D (pleasant, I know..) and all the other symptoms. I tracked my food back for the last couple days and the only thing new I had introduced what a red wine. I'll have to check the bottle again and see where it was from, but I do recall bloating after drinking it, but then the rest of the symptoms came hours later. I read last night that all wines were gluten free, but maybe that is not the case?

Wine can be a source of GI distress for reasons other than gluten. Sulfites can cause nasty reactions or just the fact it's alcohol and has a high sugar content can cause bloating. It would create problems for those with candida overgrowth, which is common with Celiac Disease. Sugar feeds yeast and in turn, nasty bloating can occur.

I am a daily wine drinker with dinner and have zero issues with it. I was pretty bad as far as this disease goes and my GI tract was completely trashed. Yet, a glass of red wine at night has no effects at all and I am highly sensitive to gluten. I just have a hard time believing that it's something we have to worry about when I tolerate it so well. I am not showing any gluten ingestion in my most recent blood work so I have to go with that. Plus, I believe that the medical community and Celiac organizations would have this as a huge red flag for us it it were true.

Not all reactions are caused by gluten but that can be hard to remember at first. I had one of my nastiest reactions ever from guar gum after a dental procedure. Absolutely no gluten in the product but it was loaded with gums, which are gluten-free but hard for some to digest. I found out the hard way!

[JNBunnie1]

You know, it's easy to say, "Well that can't possibly be a gluten reaction". My reactions are completely definitive, because I get dermatitis herpetiformis and nothing but gluten causes that. There's no way to say it was a reaction to something else. I have most certainly reacted to things other people have said I couldn't possibly react to, which includes food made in shared facilities, wine, and make-up. Personally, I'd like to avoid any wine that's been fermented in a gluten sealed cask, just in case. There's no reason not to avoid it. There's plenty of other wine out there.

By necessity, a great deal of the info we get on this disease has to be anecdotal, and of course some things are different for everyone. If you don't react to something, great! Enjoy. But if someone else does, then they are doing the proper thing by sharing that information.

RideAllways, would you be willing to tell me if you've had wine before that you didn't react to, and if so, what the brand of the wine that made you react is? (should that be pm'd?....)

[Gemini]

  On 5/7/2010 at 10:45 AM, JNBunnie1 said:

You know, it's easy to say, "Well that can't possibly be a gluten reaction". My reactions are completely definitive, because I get dermatitis herpetiformis and nothing but gluten causes that. There's no way to say it was a reaction to something else. I have most certainly reacted to things other people have said I couldn't possibly react to, which includes food made in shared facilities, wine, and make-up. Personally, I'd like to avoid any wine that's been fermented in a gluten sealed cask, just in case. There's no reason not to avoid it. There's plenty of other wine out there.

By necessity, a great deal of the info we get on this disease has to be anecdotal, and of course some things are different for everyone. If you don't react to something, great! Enjoy. But if someone else does, then they are doing the proper thing by sharing that information.

RideAllways, would you be willing to tell me if you've had wine before that you didn't react to, and if so, what the brand of the wine that made you react is? (should that be pm'd?....)

When I reacted to the gums in the dental product, it was exactly the same reaction I get from gluten....no gluten in the product, though. I am sure you react but again, and I stand behind what I have said, if this were a problem for Celiacs, doctors and Celiac foundations/groups would clearly list that wine is not safe. They don't. I also know a few people with DH, who drink red wine, and have never had a reaction to any wine they have drunk. So, it still could be from something else in the wine. Celiacs are so sensitive to many other products that sometimes, you cannot be entirely sure where a reaction has come from.

It is always interesting to hear others experiences but information given to newbies should be as correct as possible. I don't think it serves anyone well to state that wine is not gluten-free when every Celiac site that you reference states it is not a problem, unless you have an allergy to another ingredient in wine.

I also react to shared facility foods and probably would react to make-up if I ate it but I don't. If there were any gluten in red wine, there is no question it would get me.

[JNBunnie1]

"The experts would have warned us" isn't really a valid argument, especially in the US.

Too many experienced, intelligent Celiacs have reported a verifiable glutening from a winemaker who CONFIRMED the use of flour paste in their barrels for this to be a non-issue.

Apparently, the winemaker Claiborne and Churchill uses barrels with rye flour paste. Here's the thread where nasalady tells us this wine glutened her and her husband. This probably only happened because the wine they got was aged in a new barrel. Old barrels that had flour paste probably don't release any more particles into the wine, making this a rare issue with newer barrels.

Maybe we could start a list, this is the only brand anyone has referenced specifically yet as having gotten them glutened. Anyone else have a specific brand?