Should You Thank The Catholic Church?

[Lisa]

This is an interesting article related to this ongoing discussion:

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[ravenwoodglass]

Gosh, it always amazes me how much knowledge we have on this board. Thanks for a very interesting discussion.

[home-based-mom]

CarlaB brings up a point that has long just amazed me and that is how someone can have so much knowledge and so little faith! For me, the more I know about Creation, the more faith I have in The Creator!

[CarlaB]

CarlaB brings up a point that has long just amazed me and that is how someone can have so much knowledge and so little faith! For me, the more I know about Creation, the more faith I have in The Creator!

I have faith that Steve does underneath it all. He's a good guy, tons of knowledge of the Church, the Bible, etc. .... I don't know what it's underneath, but I think it's there .... hidden away ...

[psawyer]

Steve is indeed very knowledgeable. He seems to distrust companies and institutions, including the Church, believing that they are all lying. I don't know how he came to have these beliefs, but my sense is that at some point in the past he has been deeply hurt. He can be blunt at times, but his points are well researched and have merit.

[debmidge]

I just have one comment and one question:

1) I hate the taste of barley

2) what is a "red" cooker?

[Tim-n-VA]

I didn't bring up you being atheist to discredit you ... you know more about this stuff than I do .... and I know a lot, LOL.

It probably gives him more credibility. Most atheists I've encountered, especially the ones who arrive there after being raised in a non-atheists family have given a lot of thought and study to these various issues.

[gfp]

I just have one comment and one question:

2) what is a "red" cooker?

I'm guessing its a real fancy range/auger ... something I'd love. She may well tempt me over for a visit when I get over to the US...

Steve is indeed very knowledgeable. He seems to distrust companies and institutions, including the Church, believing that they are all lying. I don't know how he came to have these beliefs,

Well other than "the Church" basically working for these institutions...

The distrust is more complex though really.... and partly something due to my age and where I was born together...

Back in the good old days () .. or where I come from we say "when I was a lad" ... life seemed a lot simpler and business more honest.

My first trip to North America (actually Canada but the observations are still partly N. America because they are TV based) was quite an eye opener. In brief I was amazed just how much companies set out to deceive and trick in advertising...

This might be weird (if you have had this advertising all your life) .... but up until a decade or so ago UK advertising was subtle yet fundamentally more honest than today and basically less "caveat emptor" than today... I remember seeing an advert (lets say it was tylenol) saying how there product was better than their competitors which might cause (x,y,z) lets say kidney problems...

At the time this sort of advertising would have been completely unacceptable in the UK.... because its a pharmacutical ... it is standard and the tablets function is identical... hence their tylenol has just as bad effect as the 'other brand'. This ad would never have been allowed to run on UK TV a decade or so ago because it sets out to misrepresent and deceive...

Time has passed .... and the UK is now a mirror of North American business practice and the global village becomes ever more encompassing... so now I have for instance my cell phone operator trying to trick me into contracts and extra plans. An example is I received a MMS (a multimedia text message) which was basically a news roundup from the cell operator... I didn't want the service so I deleted it... (as I'm sure many people did) ... 3 months later I get an item on my bill, its only a few

[CarlaB]

I just have one comment and one question:

1) I hate the taste of barley

2) what is a "red" cooker?

1) LOL

2) it was intentionally ambiguous ... but knew Steve would get it since he's from England. Basically, it's a red stove that's fun to cook on.

I'm guessing its a real fancy range/auger ... something I'd love. She may well tempt me over for a visit when I get over to the US...

Ha, my intention .... you are definitely someone from the board I would like to meet.

Well other than "the Church" basically working for these institutions...

I figured it was the "people" factor. The Church has made mistakes ..... no one can deny that. Jesus knew it would be that way from the start .... one of "the twelve" as a traitor to him. To me, that is part of the miracle of it's survival. That is also why when it does change, it does so slowly.

I am coming from a different paradigm than Steve .... first of all, not from Europe .... second of all, I like to look for the good in humanity. I know the bad is there ..... I like to give people the benefit of the doubt .... I see the same negatives.

And I have HOPE .... I HOPE that there is something more than this .... I have suffered almost more than I could handle this past two years with Lyme Disease and it's looking at the Suffering Christ that has gotten me through with a good attitude, never bitter. If he suffered, why shouldn't I? It doesn't mean he's punishing me, it means he's letting me help him carry the cross like he let Simon of Cyrene.

I have hope that there's more after this life. I do not fear death, I look forward to it, to the day I can meet him face to face.

Ultimately for me, it does not come down to whether every single act of every single person in the Church has been right or wrong, it comes down to, do I believe Jesus is God? Do I believe he started the Church? Do I believe he sent the Holy Spirit to guide it to the truth since there was no way he could answer each and every question that would come down through the ages at one point in time?

I am guessing there is a very deep hurt underlying Steve's lack of faith .... I notice you say how you came to have lack of faith in corporations, but not the Church .... I'm thinking one of the bad people in the Church has robbed you of the faith you had. Now I'd bet, you know more than he does .... Oh, and you are a bit stubborn (did I say that? ), which prevents you from the possibility of changing your mind. You don't need to tell me whether that is close or not, but that is my guess.

I have one question, what if you're wrong?

[ravenwoodglass]

.

I have one question, what if you're wrong?

I think St Peter will meet him at the gate, say welcome and all present will get ready for some lively conversations.

[CarlaB]

I think St Peter will meet him at the gate, say welcome and all present will get ready for some lively conversations.

[jerseyangel]

I think St Peter will meet him at the gate, say welcome and all present will get ready for some lively conversations.

Amen Ravenwood

[home-based-mom]

Steve, you may have seen signs in business establishments that say "In God we trust - all others pay cash." Cheeky as that is, it makes a point. God is always worthy of our trust - people and the institutions people run - are often not. They are run by flawed individuals , warts and all.

Don't base your perception of God on what you see in people, . . "for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God."

Look to the source and you will find no fault.

PS: this is quite a heavy discussion for something that started out about (what else) gluten!

[Lisa]

We have people from all walks of life and various religions or even lack of. With all due respect, it is recommended that personal religious statement be avoided.

Thank you.