Bread That Bites Back

[RiceGuy]

The thing I'm finding trick with gluten-free bread baking, is getting a good crust. I mean, a crispy, crusty texture. Something with "tooth". I especially like this in biscuits. It's a work in progress, and I'm closer than ever. But still not quite there yet. Here's where it stands as of this post:

For biscuits, buns, muffins, etc, I use a pyrex bowl, and make the dough with as little water as possible in the recipe. The more water I've tried using, the softer the results. I suppose this might be a no-brainer, given that we have the term "cake batter", not "cake dough". However, too little moisture, and it'll crack, and tends not to rise as much. Therefore, covering with foil for part of the baking time helps keep it from drying out too much before it has had a chance to rise. I only use baking powder - no yeast.

I recently found, that further reducing the water, and baking at a higher temp helps too. I'm still experimenting with this though.

I've experimented a lot with the flour blend, binders, etc, and most things don't seem to be overriding factors. Though using soy flour tends to result in a particularly soft, moist texture. Far more than any other flour I've tried. Too much xanthan or guar gum will also keep the texture soft, so minimizing this does help.

Tips anyone?

[Jestgar]

My mom used to brush her bread with water, but I found this online:

Open Original Shared Link

[ranger]

I find the French bread on Glutenfreeda.com works well, but it requires yeast Do you have a reason that you can't use yeast? I couldn't bake bread without it. It also needs a stand mixer - I burned up my hand mixer trying to use it.

[Lisa16]

What about Chebe?

In my experience, chebe will produce a nice crust (sometimes to a fault). The only thing about it is that the inside is pretty squishy. It has texture something in between a brioche and bread pudding.

Thanks for the tips riceguy!

[ChemistMama]

in my gluten-baking days, I learned in a bread baking class that placing a pan of boiling water on the bottom rack a few minutes before you put in the bread gives a nice crust...it's how to make authenic italian bread with nice chewy crust.

The new SChar bread mix actually makes a nice chewy crust, I'll have to use the boiling water method to make it chewy inside and crispy outside!

Do you have a favorite recipe with awesome crust you can share?

[RiceGuy]

I'm sure there is something to the water/steam idea. When I cover the bowl or pan with foil, and the dough is soft, it does turn dark. It just doesn't get crispy. Chewy, somewhat. But crispy, no.

I started avoiding yeast when dealing with candida. It's been awhile now, and I guess I can't be sure if I could safely eat it on a regular basis. However, my focus for the crispy crust is baking powder biscuits. If you couldn't get baking powder to work for bread baking, perhaps this will help you.

Chebe is basically tapioca, the texture of which never impressed me. It's mostly all carbs too. However, my gut doesn't seem to be too happy when I eat it now, so for the time being, it's off my list.

Thanks for the tips and links. I just ran out of flour, but will certainly try a few ideas as soon as I get more. I'm optimistic. I'll get that elusive crust if I have to use a heat gun...wait, that just might work...

[Ahorsesoul]

We ate at Victoria's in Rochester, MN this week. They have been making their own homemade gluten free rolls for while. They now serve an excellent gluten free crusty roll. If you e-mail them they might share how this is done.

Open Original Shared Link

[RiceGuy]

I think it's time for an update.

I decided to experiment with yeast-risen breads, just to see what differences there might be, if any. I started with an old (yet still within expiration date) packet of yeast I had from the last round of yeast-risen experiments.

Bingo! I got a crispy, crunchy crust! It was great. Really great! I could even vary the recipe, and still it'd turn out wonderful. But then I used up that last old packet, so of course I got more. Results? Same old soft crust!? What happened?

After much additional experimentation, I have concluded that somehow, the "aged" yeast was the key. I don't know how or why. But I do know that it smelled different than a fresh packet. When I first opened it, and took a whiff, I though "nope, it's half dead". Perhaps as it sits there, it ever-so-slowly produces some kind of substance. One which takes too much time for it to develop in the short period of time that the dough has to rise. And perhaps it is that substance which causes the crust to become crispy. Maybe that's what makes the difference in the smell too. The best way I can describe it, is that the yeast just smelled "stale".

Just thinking about it now, maybe what I should do, is moisten some yeast, and allow it to sit overnight or something. Even if it dies, maybe it will have produced enough of whatever it is that makes crust crispy. Then maybe some fresh yeast for the rise, and the dead yeast for the crust, would finally give the results I'm looking for.

So, I'm off to put some yeast aside to do whatever it'll do. I'll use it later and report whatever happens, if anything.

But if you have some old yeast, it might not be as useless as it seems.

[irish daveyboy]

Riceguy,

try adding 4 Tbls of Milk powder to the mix,

it improves texture, handling and improves crust and crust color.

.

If making a yeast bread, add 1 tsp of lemon juice or vinegar (yeast likes an acidic environment)

also add 1/4 tsp of soda for extra rise.

.

Best Regards,

David

[TrillumHunter]

Did you notice that the loaf with the old yeast took longer to rise? Old yeast isn't always completely dead so it makes a slower, and in my mind tastier, rise. Lots of yeast in recipe, say 1 T to 3 c of flour, makes a quick-rising poofy bread with a mild taste. Cut it to half and allow it to rise in a cooler place and you'll get a much more toothsome loaf with assertive flavor. Like daveyboy said, it needs acid and a bit sweetener to feed it for the longer rise. I, too, am looking for the elusive crackle crust but have yet to have success. I think what makes that crust are the long strands of gluten that you work up when kneading. We need something to replace that "stretch" in our breads. At least that's my own theory!

[RiceGuy]

Riceguy,

try adding 4 Tbls of Milk powder to the mix,

it improves texture, handling and improves crust and crust color.

.

If making a yeast bread, add 1 tsp of lemon juice or vinegar (yeast likes an acidic environment)

also add 1/4 tsp of soda for extra rise.

.

Best Regards,

David

Thanks. Can't do dairy, so the milk powder is out. I have aided the yeast with acid and/or sugars, but that hasn't done the trick. Again, that old packet of yeast worked. I just haven't yet figured out why.

Did you notice that the loaf with the old yeast took longer to rise? Old yeast isn't always completely dead so it makes a slower, and in my mind tastier, rise. Lots of yeast in recipe, say 1 T to 3 c of flour, makes a quick-rising poofy bread with a mild taste. Cut it to half and allow it to rise in a cooler place and you'll get a much more toothsome loaf with assertive flavor. Like daveyboy said, it needs acid and a bit sweetener to feed it for the longer rise. I, too, am looking for the elusive crackle crust but have yet to have success. I think what makes that crust are the long strands of gluten that you work up when kneading. We need something to replace that "stretch" in our breads. At least that's my own theory!

Actually, I don't recall the old yeast taking much longer to rise. Possibly a little. I also tried the RapidRise yeast, and although the same measure will provide a faster rise, it doesn't seem to do anything different for the crust. It did taste different though, I think because of the ascorbic acid which the manufacturer adds to aid the yeast.

Tonight I tried letting yeast stand in water for about 9 hours. All it did was to make the bread taste more yeasty. I have another idea involving O³, though I'm still thinking through the implementation.

I suppose the worst case, would be keeping a package of yeast around for 18 months or more before using it. It's just not so much fun to wait that long.

[ranger]

French Bread

2 c rice flour 2 tbls yeast

1 c tapioca flour 2 tbls melted butter

3 tsp xanthan 3 eggwhites, slightly beaten

1 1/2 tsp salt 1 tsp vinegar

1 tbls sugar 1/3 c melted butter ( for topping)

1 1/2 c warm water

1. Blend flours, salt, and xanthan gum in bowl of stand mixer.

2. Dissolve sugar in water. Add yeast.

3. When yeast foams, blend into dry ingrediants.

4. Add butter, egg whites, and vinegar. Beat on high for 3 min.

5. To form loaves, spoon onto greased and cornmealed bake sheet, in two long French bread shapes.

6. Slash the tops and brush with melted butter.

7. Loosely cover and let rise till doubled.

8. Bake at 400 for 40-45 min.

I like to shape mine using an ice cream scoop dipped in butter, then making a flatter patty shape and baking them as indivual rolls. I get 8 rolls out of the recipe and when the're cooled, I split them and freeze them. It's a pain in the butt, but they are good. I burned up my portable mixer the first time I made them. Take care.

[lpellegr]

Try varying your oven temperature. Sometimes a longer bake at a lower temp will give you more of a crunchy crust.

[RiceGuy]

Try varying your oven temperature. Sometimes a longer bake at a lower temp will give you more of a crunchy crust.

Yeah, tried that. There is some influence on the crust, but mostly in terms of how browned it'll get before the inside of the bread is done.

[JNBunnie1]

Yeah, tried that. There is some influence on the crust, but mostly in terms of how browned it'll get before the inside of the bread is done.

Egg wash?

[Juliet]

One trick that bakers use is also having steam in the oven. About 10 minutes before placing the bread in the oven, put an oven proof dish filled with ice at the bottom of your oven. Any time I make rolls, yeast or otherwise, the crust is nice and crunchy when I do this.

[irish daveyboy]

Thanks. Can't do dairy, so the milk powder is out.

.

Try better than milk in place of milk powder!

.

Open Original Shared Link

.

Best Regards,

David

[RiceGuy]

Egg wash?

Can't do eggs either. But judging by past experience, that wouldn't produce the results I'm looking for anyway.

One trick that bakers use is also having steam in the oven. About 10 minutes before placing the bread in the oven, put an oven proof dish filled with ice at the bottom of your oven. Any time I make rolls, yeast or otherwise, the crust is nice and crunchy when I do this.

You know, that's along the lines of what I had been doing when I started using the old yeast. I place a piece of foil over the dish, trapping in the steam. So I thought that was doing it, but now it actually seems to do just the opposite. I guess I'll have to try the ice idea, just to make sure. Thanks.

.

Try better than milk in place of milk powder!

Thanks. I'll look into that. But does it really make a crunchy crust? Even before I went gluten-free, I never liked adding milk to biscuits or other breads, because it makes them soft. How does using powdered milk in gluten-free bread differ?

[TrillumHunter]

I think the milk adds protein which helps the bread have structure. Dry milk especially does this without the added liquid and fat. You are right about fluid milk. It makes a very tender soft dough.

If you look at a gluten french bread you'll see it uses a high protein flour, little yeast and no fat. Our trouble is finding a lightweight source of protein. All the bean and nut flours are just too heavy to lift up and be crisp.

See, I think I understand WHY it isn't working, but I haven't figured out how to fix it yet.

We need a fluffy, airy high-protein flour. And, oh yeah, gluten free as well.

[RiceGuy]

I think the milk adds protein which helps the bread have structure. Dry milk especially does this without the added liquid and fat. You are right about fluid milk. It makes a very tender soft dough.

If you look at a gluten french bread you'll see it uses a high protein flour, little yeast and no fat. Our trouble is finding a lightweight source of protein. All the bean and nut flours are just too heavy to lift up and be crisp.

See, I think I understand WHY it isn't working, but I haven't figured out how to fix it yet.

We need a fluffy, airy high-protein flour. And, oh yeah, gluten free as well.

Sounds like you're talking about casein. I did some searches for the nutrient content of dry milk powder and rice milk powder, but didn't find such details. Regular rice milk doesn't have a lot of protein, so if the powdered stuff helps the crust, then I'd say protein isn't the key. I have been kicking around an idea of using a protein powder, so I may give that a try.

I don't know if your theory is correct, but I do know that protein helps a bread to get browned. I use high-protein flours, and they rise and brown well. The tricky part for me seems to be the type of crust I'm looking for.

But, the question of why the old yeast worked still remains. I thought it was the method of baking, until I got fresh yeast. Then it was back to the spineless crust

Here's a fascinating and informative look at the science of leavening:

Open Original Shared Link

Incidentally, soy flour is a very fluffy, high-protein flour, but it results in super-soft bread. More like cake if you ask me. It browns fast, actually too fast I think, but it doesn't get crispy.

[ranger]

Have you thaught about quinoa flour? I've cooked quinoa, but never used the flour. But, it is high in protien.

[Missgoodbeer]

I've found egg replacer to add a good amount of protein for good rise to my breads. I don't know how healthy egg replacer is but it sure helps me make good bread and doesn't add eggy flavor. Also Shauna ahern (glutenfreegirl) and a couple of my cookbooks recommended millet flour. I haven't tried millet flour yet but they tout it as having good texture.

[RiceGuy]

Have you thaught about quinoa flour? I've cooked quinoa, but never used the flour. But, it is high in protien.

I have tried it, and did not notice any real difference, though that was with baking powder. But it is so bitter I just cannot use it.

However, it seems the protein value of quinoa is sometimes over-emphasized. Here's some nutrient info on various flours according to the Bob's Red Mill website (all values are for 1/4 cup):

Amaranth Flour = Carbs: 20g, Fiber: 3g, Protein: 4g

Buckwheat Flour = Carbs: 21g, Fiber: 4g, Protein: 4g

Coconut Flour = Carbs: 10g, Fiber: 6g, Protein: 2g

Fava Bean Flour = Carbs: 19g, Fiber: 8g, Protein: 9g

Garbanzo Bean Flour = Carbs: 18g, Fiber: 5g, Protein: 6g

Quinoa Flour = Carbs: 18g, Fiber: 2g, Protein: 4g

Brown Rice Flour = Carbs: 31g, Fiber: 1g, Protein: 3g

Sorghum Flour = Carbs: 25g, Fiber: 3g, Protein: 4g

Teff Flour = Carbs: 22g, Fiber: 4g, Protein: 4g

White Bean Flour = Carbs: 20g, Fiber: 8g, Protein: 7g

So, I don't see what the big deal is about quinoa. While I guess it's not all that bad for protein content by percentage, it doesn't really stand out much amongst the others either. Especially since it has comparatively low fiber content. Total carbs includes the fiber, so the lower the fiber, the more of those carbs are starch. The exact values do vary slightly depending on the company, but usually not by much.

[JNBunnie1]

I have tried it, and did not notice any real difference, though that was with baking powder. But it is so bitter I just cannot use it.

However, it seems the protein value of quinoa is sometimes over-emphasized. Here's some nutrient info on various flours according to the Bob's Red Mill website (all values are for 1/4 cup):

Amaranth Flour = Carbs: 20g, Fiber: 3g, Protein: 4g

Buckwheat Flour = Carbs: 21g, Fiber: 4g, Protein: 4g

Coconut Flour = Carbs: 10g, Fiber: 6g, Protein: 2g

Fava Bean Flour = Carbs: 19g, Fiber: 8g, Protein: 9g

Garbanzo Bean Flour = Carbs: 18g, Fiber: 5g, Protein: 6g

Quinoa Flour = Carbs: 18g, Fiber: 2g, Protein: 4g

Brown Rice Flour = Carbs: 31g, Fiber: 1g, Protein: 3g

Sorghum Flour = Carbs: 25g, Fiber: 3g, Protein: 4g

Teff Flour = Carbs: 22g, Fiber: 4g, Protein: 4g

White Bean Flour = Carbs: 20g, Fiber: 8g, Protein: 7g

So, I don't see what the big deal is about quinoa. While I guess it's not all that bad for protein content by percentage, it doesn't really stand out much amongst the others either. Especially since it has comparatively low fiber content. Total carbs includes the fiber, so the lower the fiber, the more of those carbs are starch. The exact values do vary slightly depending on the company, but usually not by much.

I think it's that it's a complete protein, so has all the essential amoino acids necessary for digestion. I find it too bitter as well.

Another though for crispy crust- try melting one tbsp honey with one tbsp water and when hot brush over crust. Will be sweet, but it makes the top crust on my honey bread fairly crispy.

[RiceGuy]

I think it's that it's a complete protein, so has all the essential amoino acids necessary for digestion. I find it too bitter as well.

Another though for crispy crust- try melting one tbsp honey with one tbsp water and when hot brush over crust. Will be sweet, but it makes the top crust on my honey bread fairly crispy.

Maybe. I also suppose it's because many gluten-free flour mixes and suggested blends are mostly starch, and quinoa happens to be lighter in color than many whole grain flours. Thus, adding quinoa would be a way to add protein without darkening the bread, in pursuit of a gluten-free "white bread".

Thanks for the tip. I've been considering various things like that, but, as you've pointed out, it makes the crust sweet. The other thing is that whatever I put on the top only effects the top.

When I had been getting that crispy crust, it was the entire crust, and deeper than what a thin coating would seem capable of achieving. It was most definitely a property of the outermost portion of the bread, rather than a surface effect. The inside had good texture too.

I will figure this out. I will not give up.