KC Masterpiece BBQ

[kareng]

Wrote to find out about KC Masterpiece BBQ sauce because they had "Natural flavors" and "smoke flavor". The web site said they would list wheat but barley not mentioned. They are made by Hidden Valley. This is the response I got:

Thank you for contacting us.

The FDA requires that we list the following allergens on our ingredient labels:

1. Egg

2. Soybean (excluding high refined oil)

3. Dairy

4. Peanut

5. Wheat (barley, rye, oats, or any source of gluten)

6. Fish

7. Crustacean

8. Tree Nut

For the most accurate source of information, please check the back of the ingredient panel for every purchase as ingredients may change. Additionally, the term "Natural Flavor" is proprietary to our formula however, if any of the allergens listed above were present in the natural flavors it would be called out specifically on the ingredient panel. Further, none of our products are manufactured on dedicated lines.

Again, thank you for contacting us.

Sincerely,

Sarah Barnett

Consumer Response Representative

Consumer Services

[4boysmom]

This seems to be a standard reply for many companies.

Based on what they said would you eat it?

[DonaldandAlanda Evans]

I was under the impression that the FDA does not require barley, rye or oats to be listed because they are not a major allergen.

[kareng]

I think what they are saying is that if they purposely add wheat, rye or barley they will say so. They don't want to claim gluten-free because they might or might someday make something else at that facility that has gluten. I would probably eat it if I checked all the BBQ sauces to see that the ingredients in all are OK. They probably make them one after the other then clean and make salad dressing the next week. Its not my fav, I like a local kind "Gates" and the daughter of the owner told me the ingredients (no secrets). I asked cause my son, who is not currently Celiac loves it and I wanted to know how careful of it I should be.

I should add this is my opinion and I know others would avoid that isle in the grocery to keep away from the possibility of gluten.

[kareng]

I was under the impression that the FDA does not require barley, rye or oats to be listed because they are not a major allergen.

They don't but a lot of companies include them in thier allergen listing policies (for example Kraft and aparently HV).

[joelmw]

They don't but a lot of companies include them in thier allergen listing policies (for example Kraft and aparently HV).

From what I can tell, the addition of barley and rye are the poster's interpolation and do not reflect any such statement by HV. They could be explicit. They are not. I just called and got the same message (falling back on the FDA and not explicitly including rye or barley). Their statement is unnecessarily lawyerly and vague and, regardless of the contents of their products (which are, as I've implied, in question), motivates me to actively avoid everything they manufacture. I say that sitting here staring--with some frustration--at a large bottle of KC Masterpiece (purchased--before my diagnosis--as part of a two pack; and yes, we have the other bottle too).

I'd be happy to learn that I am wrong. If I'm missing something here, please let me know, but I see no reason to believe that KC Masterpiece is gluten free.

[kareng]

From what I can tell, the addition of barley and rye are the poster's interpolation and do not reflect any such statement by HV. They could be explicit. They are not. I just called and got the same message (falling back on the FDA and not explicitly including rye or barley). Their statement is unnecessarily lawyerly and vague and, regardless of the contents of their products (which are, as I've implied, in question), motivates me to actively avoid everything they manufacture. I say that sitting here staring--with some frustration--at a large bottle of KC Masterpiece (purchased--before my diagnosis--as part of a two pack; and yes, we have the other bottle too).

I'd be happy to learn that I am wrong. If I'm missing something here, please let me know, but I see no reason to believe that KC Masterpiece is gluten free.

I'm not sure what you are saying exactly but it does sound like you are saying I'm lying. I posted the exact letter that I recieved back then. The wheat, rye & barley was in their message. I did not add it.

As of that post which I think was about 1 year ago, I would go by the ingredients as listed.

[lovegrov]

I know plenty of folks with celiac who use KC.

richard

[joelmw]

I'm not sure what you are saying exactly but it does sound like you are saying I'm lying. I posted the exact letter that I recieved back then. The wheat, rye & barley was in their message. I did not add it.

As of that post which I think was about 1 year ago, I would go by the ingredients as listed.

By no means did I mean to explicitly say or imply that you were lying. I apologize for not being clearer--and that I was a little caught up in my crankiness and frustration. I did not in fact understand that the parenthetical was in the original message from them (and not a note from you) and I appreciate the clarification. I do (and did) see that you specifically mentioned "barley"; that argues against your putting it in the parenthetical explanation but not categorically. I notice too that I must have somewhere not made (or made and lost) the connection that you (the person clarifying) were the original poster of the information (I can't account otherwise for why I would have referred to you in the third person when I replied to your comment or for my level of confusion).

And if they say that their products are not "manufactured on dedicated lines" doesn't that imply that they are subject to contamination? If so then why are they not required to indicate--as I have seen on many other labels--that the product was produced in facilities where wheat, etc. are also handled?

Much of my frustration is with the variety and inconsistency of labeling practices--not to mention the variety of ways those practices can be interpreted. I'm also a little fuzzy on the current law and when each piece of it went into effect. I've tried to pin this down but haven't been able to do so to my satisfaction. As I said, I'd appreciate being pointed to anything that makes this clear, preferably something from the FDA itself. I admit that I did not fully understand what I've been able to find at the FDA--and, from my perspective, they spend a lot of time explaining things I could find elsewhere (and that I am not looking to the FDA to explain) and little spelling out the details of regulation. In other words, I don't need for them to explain what celiac disease is or what's so bad about gluten; I need them to tell me what I can and cannot count on in food and pharmaceutical labeling.

It's also deeply frustrating--and somewhat puzzling--that manufacturers seem generally unwilling to be explicit about allergen information online. It's the lack of clarity that makes me distrust them. If they will tell you in an email that "wheat" includes "barley, rye, oats, or any source of gluten" why wouldn't they want us to be able to find that--and a little peace of mind--online? It would seem that they are equally liable for the information wherever it's posted; why not post it somewhere that's easier to find?

Also, I apologize for not responding earlier. I am new to this board and had wrongly assumed that I would be notified of comments on topics I replied to. I am in setting up my notifications right now and will hopefully learn earlier when there's activity on the topics I've commented on.

Thanks.

[kareng]

In the US, there are no real laws about gluten labeling. They do have to label wheat if it is an ingredient of a product. They do not have to tell you if it is a shared facility or shared machines. There is a proposed law that has been lurking for years but is still not approved or completely discarded. Laws and common practices vary by country.

If a food was labelled gluten free but the company knows it is not - that would be false labelling. They could be liable for that. For instance, a company saying the soup contained beef but they used horse meat, would be sanctioned for that. A man who sold " gluten free" bread with gluten-free flours listed as ingredients, was jailed for that.

[Lisa]

All of Sweet Baby Ray's are gluten free and the best!

[joelmw]

All of Sweet Baby Ray's are gluten free and the best!

I'm pretty sure that not all of them are, but several certainly are. And we prefer them to KC Masterpiece anyway. I only recently discovered that preference. So, um, thanks KC Masterpiece--for leading me to Sweet Baby Ray's.

[psawyer]

I'm pretty sure that not all of them are, but several certainly are.

Please provide your source for the allegation that not all Sweet Baby Ray's BBQ sauces are gluten-free. Which ones contain gluten, and how do you know?

[joelmw]

Please provide your source for the allegation that not all Sweet Baby Ray's BBQ sauces are gluten-free. Which ones contain gluten, and how do you know?

Eek. I didn't mean to be making an "allegation." But I do recognize (and what's sadder, did recognize) that I kinda was making an allegation. FWIW, my "pretty sure" isn't an understatement (that is, I don't claim certainty) and, as I think I indicated, I'm a big fan of the SBR so I don't mean to in any way disparage. I was just, uh, pretty sure that they weren't all safe and wanted to throw out that warning, 'cause, as you well know, the super market is not a safe place for folks like us.

As it turns out, I did try to verify this online and was unable. In fact, what I Open Original Shared Link indicates that all of their bbq meat products (except the meatballs) are gluten-free. I'm holding out based on the fact the the FAQ cited seems to most specifically address their "barbecued meats," which "feature" their original sauce, and it does not explicitly address their other sauces.

So, um, may it please the court, I submit the disclaimer that my statement is anecdotal, based merely on my recollection of a couple of trips to a couple of different Wal-Marts. At last I'm pretty sure they were Wal-Marts . . . and that they were different. I'm more sure that one of the stores was a Wal-Mart. I realize that the stores in question might be mostly irrelevant, but can't help having fun with the fuzziness of my memory of them.

Anyway, yeah, what I remember is that we looked at several bottles of different SBR's sauce and some of them explicitly said they were gluten-free while others did not. I freely admit that I might be wrong about that. I also acknowledge that the absence of a claim of sweet gluten-freedom does not necessarily indicate gluteny-dom.

As a direct attack on my credibility as a witness I further submit that all of my trips to the grocery store since my diagnosis are a jumbled mass of mostly frustration and confusion and a desperate grasping after some sort of certainty, sanity and gastric security--all of which are mostly elusive these days, even while my general health does seem, by some grace and good fortune, to be improving.

Even now I'm wondering if I somehow attached uncertainty about gluten-free-ness to uncertainty about whether I'd like different variations (e.g., if they had jalapenos or something). I'm still thinking I at least noted the absence of a statement of gluten-free-ness on one or more of the bottles.

I do intend to follow up on this though. And I hope my potentially pathetic attempts at humor aren't irritating. It's just a major coping mechanism. Trust me: you'd rather me being sarcastic and/or goofy than cranky. And, well, as for the verbosity, that's just me--whatever my mood.

P.S. Eek again, I am seeing further indication that in fact all of their sauces are gluten free. I mostly retract my hasty expression of incredulity. Now I want to go to the store mostly to reconstruct the chain of events that led to my misunderstanding and try to convince myself that I haven't completely lost my mind. Sigh.

[kareng]

We have 500+ people on here this hour. They see a statement like "Kg's BBQ sauce is not gluten-free" They don't realize the person posting this is new to gluten-free or unreliable or angry at the company for some reason or stating an opinion or trolling for a fight.

We only have 5 rules. One of them is:

Any claims you make here should be based on legitimate sources, or be expressed as opinion, experience, or inquiry

[IrishHeart]

I was just, uh, pretty sure that they weren't all safe and wanted to throw out that warning, 'cause, as you well know, the super market is not a safe place for folks like us.

As it turns out, I did try to verify this online and was unable. In fact, what I Open Original Shared Link indicates that all of their bbq meat products (except the meatballs) are gluten-free. I'm holding out based on the fact the the FAQ cited seems to most specifically address their "barbecued meats," which "feature" their original sauce, and it does not explicitly address their other sauces.

That's because it is found under Ken's Foods. The parent company.

Open Original Shared Link

Their Gluten Statement states:

"List of Products in Retail that do NOT have Gluten present in their recipes"..... (and there is a long list) concluding with:

"All Sweet Baby Rays Barbeque Sauces have NO Gluten present in the recipes."

Product inquiry, website valid and proof of statement.

and that's how we roll on here.

When I was newly diagnosed, I made many mistakes on my own while learning the ropes. But one thing I learned early on while contributing info to other celiacs is: NEVER say something is a fact, unless you are SURE and have solid proof to back it up --because people rely on that information.

Okay? okay!

[joelmw]

Okay? okay!

[most humbly and sheepishly, and somewhat askeered] okay

[big sigh]

Thank you for tracking down the source and reporting the information.

And thank you for the winky. It means a lot to me. Seriously. And seriously smiling too.

I might have more to say (ha, that's funny: "I might have more to say"; I kill me) later. I feel that I owe an apology or two but I want to make sure that what I say is both accurate (sheesh, that for sure ) and sincere and that any qualification is appropriate. I think I need some alone time first.

{And then I almost did what I said I was going to do later. I just tripped into it without even thinking. It was a mess. You can't see it because I erased it. And I was going to attempt to reproduce the internal dialog in which I was arguing with myself about the premature, over-qualified, highly-susceptible-to-misinterpretation, etc. etc. apology.}

But certainly to the extent that I contributed to misinformation, confusion, anxiety, frustration, despair, etc., I am truly sorry. At the very least I could have been clearer. And, as Karen alluded to, my initial entry into this thread reeked of anger and frustration. That one I think I would probably retract. It's probably more humbling to just leave it though; I do so in hopes that it will temper my future posts and perhaps be instructive to others. I'm willing to be the DON'T picture. Someone has to do it, right?

Okay, I think I've had enough space now to say that I was inappropriately careless in not contextualizing my statements. I see that that's important here. Indeed I'd be okay if we were stricter about that or perhaps established places where information is verified (because, I don't mind telling ya, there's a lot of stuff out here that isn't verified and it's not all contextualized . . . and it's not all coming from me ). I believe that technically I did contextualize, but I might have to, in my words, get "lawyerly" to make that argument and, well, at the very least, that's not very nice and it works against usefulness. Anyway, I apologize for not contextualizing more clearly too.

I'd apologize for not being wordy but I'm very sure that 1) my apology wouldn't be properly repentant and 2) it would further exacerbate its own hypocrisy.

[IrishHeart]

Oh boy. Trust me, you do not want to be the "don't picture".

You may want to follow the KISS idea --you know, "keep it simple"--if you want to be taken seriously as a contributor. Interior monologues are too difficult to follow as is stream-of-consciousness writing.

(I read James Joyce's Ulysses already and had to teach it to students who loathed it--- and I hated it, too. )

IMHO

That's also how we roll. We say.... "in my opinion".

I can see you have a good sense of humor in there, but not many will "get it". Some people reading this forum have been very ill. Take it down a notch.

Seriously.

If you are sorry, just say "I'm sorry" and move on.

Otherwise, you are just going around in circles.

IMHO

[joelmw]

Oh boy. Trust me, you do not want to be the "don't picture".

You may want to follow the KISS idea --you know, "keep it simple"--if you want to be taken seriously as a contributor. Interior monologues are too difficult to follow as is stream-of-consciousness writing.

(I read James Joyce's Ulysses already and had to teach it to students who loathed it--- and I hated it, too. )

IMHO

That's also how we roll. We say.... "in my opinion".

I can see you have a good sense of humor in there, but not many will "get it". Some people reading this forum have been very ill. Take it down a notch.

Seriously.

If you are sorry, just say "I'm sorry" and move on.

Otherwise, you are just going around in circles.

IMHO

I see you have a sense of humor so it is much easier for me to accept your advice. So, um, there.

I love Joyce and Faulkner and have long been a Blake freak. This should come as no surprise. And I get way to caught up in words and whatnot.

Anyways, point taken. KISS is good policy. I obviously need to direct more of this pent up verbal energy elsewhere. Seriously. I will work on taking it down a notch here.

Thanks again.

[kareng]

I obviously need to direct more of this pent up verbal energy elsewhere

Perhaps rapping at open mike nights? I think its time for some rap music about gluten.

If you get a mega recording contract, remember us little people.

[joelmw]

Perhaps rapping at open mike nights? I think its time for some rap music about gluten.

If you get a mega recording contract, remember us little people.

That would be awesome. It's long past time.

It's not really my thing, but I've often wished it were. I like to think I could do beat poet (like Mike Meyers in "So I Married an Axe Murderer") or some Shatneresque pale-man-speaking-words-over-music abomination. But I have a neglected blog. I won't advertise it, 'cause I just read that's uncool (which, btw, makes sense). Not that it would be hard for someone to find if they wanted to--yaknow, anyone I haven't sufficiently offended so far.

And, hey, I'm the little people (not literally--I'm 6'7"--but definitely metaphorically).

[IrishHeart]

That would be awesome. It's long past time.

It's not really my thing, but I've often wished it were. I like to think I could do beat poet (like Mike Meyers in "So I Married an Axe Murderer") or some Shatneresque pale-man-speaking-words-over-music abomination. But I have a neglected blog. I won't advertise it, 'cause I just read that's uncool (which, btw, makes sense). Not that it would be hard for someone to find if they wanted to--yaknow, anyone I haven't sufficiently offended so far.

And, hey, I'm the little people (not literally--I'm 6'7"--but definitely metaphorically).

Okay, now we are doing what's called "thread-hijacking" and it means we are going waaaaaay off the original topic and it's unfair to the original poster (OP).

But since we did it WITH you, we'll let it slide this time.

okay....back to the basic issue:

Sweet Baby Ray's is SAFE!!

BBQ frenzy may commence!

And really, find some way to channel that energy (aside from verbose, wandering posts.)

Besides, I am the long poster on here and there's only room for one.

[Lisa]

Besides, I am the long poster on here and there's only room for one.

YES SHE IS and needs NO competition....no, no, no....

[kareng]

Okay, now we are doing what's called "thread-hijacking" and it means we are going waaaaaay off the original topic and it's unfair to the original poster (OP).

I'm the OP! I hijacked my own thread!

[Lisa]

I'm the OP! I hijacked my own thread!

....THE END