Bread Help

[Neutney]

I am new to the whole baking without gluten thing, and I need some help. I am using a recipe for bread from Allergy proof kids recipes but I cannot seem to get the loaf to rise properly. I have tried it as the recipe call for except my bread machine doesn't have an 80 minute setting. I have tried it on the basic, rapid, and cake and NOTHING. I have also tried it in the oven. Just let it rise, poured it into the loaf pan and baked. It always turns out only 1 -2 inches high and doughy in the middle. I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada so I am not sure if altitude has anything to do with it. I have tried Bob's Red Mill wonderful bread mix exactly as the directions said and it rose to twice the side of the loaf pan during cooking, burnt the top and then fell in on itself when cooling! I love the Udi's bread but cannot afford $7 a loaf when there are three of us eating it!

Here is the recipe for the bread (it seems more like a batter than a dough)

1 T active dry yeast

2 t unflavored gelatin

1 T honey

1 1/2 c warm water

1 c rice flour

1/4 c tapioca flour

1/2 c cor/arrowroot/or tapioca starch

1/4 c flax meal

1 t salt

1 1/2 t veg oil

1 t cider vinegar

1. combine yest gelatin and honey in a small bowl. Add the water while gently stirring the yeast mixture. Set aside.

2. in a large bowl mix the flours, starches, flax meal and salt. Stir well

3. Pour the yeast mixture into the flour blend. Add the oil and vinegar. Stir well and pour the "dough" into the pan of a bread machine. Follow manufacturer's direction to bake on a 80 minute setting.

So...if you can help me figure this out I would appreciate it. The loaf tastes ok so we would like to solve the issue.

Thanks!

[mushroom]

I assume your bread machine is one of the newer ones with the gluten free setting??

Yes, gluten free bread mixes up more as a batter than as a dough. If you are baking it in the oven it goes through only one rise (in the pan, not in the bowl). That would be why that one didn't work. I bake at altitude at Lake Tahoe and often have to let things bake a little longer.

Anything that rises to twice the size of the pan is over-risen and will fall when taken out of the oven. Put it in the oven when it has risen to the top of the pan. If it happened in the bread machine I can only think it is not a machine with a gluten free setting.

[AzizaRivers]

Try using 1 teaspoon of xanthan gum in place of the gelatin. I don't know if you haven xanthan gum yet...if you plan on doing a lot of baking rather than buying already-made things, you'll want some xanthan gum. It will cost $10-14 for a bag of it, but that single bag will last you a long, long time.

[Neutney]

I assume your bread machine is one of the newer ones with the gluten free setting??

Yes, gluten free bread mixes up more as a batter than as a dough. If you are baking it in the oven it goes through only one rise (in the pan, not in the bowl). That would be why that one didn't work. I bake at altitude at Lake Tahoe and often have to let things bake a little longer.

Anything that rises to twice the size of the pan is over-risen and will fall when taken out of the oven. Put it in the oven when it has risen to the top of the pan. If it happened in the bread machine I can only think it is not a machine with a gluten free setting.

Actually my bread machine is very old...10+ years. I don't care for the taste of the mix, but would love to solve the problem of under rising/baking issue of recipe.

[mushroom]

Actually my bread machine is very old...10+ years. I don't care for the taste of the mix, but would love to solve the problem of under rising/baking issue of recipe.

Then you really can't use it for making gluten free breads, because the dough on their settings goes through two risings, and gluten free only has one rising. As I said, that would be why the one you baked in the oven didn't rise, because you were asking it to go through two risings. And this would be true for the bread machine too.

Try the recipe in the oven, with only the one rise in the pan, letting it rise to the top of the pan. I usually let mine rise in the oven - set it to warm and then turn it off before putting the pan in to rise. Then you can bake one of two ways - take the pan out and bring the oven up to temperature, or just turn the oven on to the temperature you want and bake until the bread sounds hollow when it is tapped. I usually take mine out of the pan at that point and pop it back in the oven on the rack for 5-10 minutes to crisp up the rest of the crust.

[Neutney]

I do have xanthan gum so I will first try it with the gelatin and only let it rise once in the pan and not do the transfer like regular bread...seems like that may solve the problem. If that doesn't work, I will try xanthan gum.

I am open to any other great, not bitter tasting recipes!

[Mizzo]

Try using 1 teaspoon of xanthan gum in place of the gelatin. I don't know if you haven xanthan gum yet...if you plan on doing a lot of baking rather than buying already-made things, you'll want some xanthan gum. It will cost $10-14 for a bag of it, but that single bag will last you a long, long time.

Also, It seems your water to flour ratio is a bit on the high side. I don't have the magic number but try reducing it.

[Neutney]

Also, It seems your water to flour ratio is a bit on the high side. I don't have the magic number but try reducing it.

That is what I thought...however it is written that way in the book and I cannot find any web searches of people having the same issue. So, not sure what is up. It seems like a very popular book. Everywhere advertises for it and it was the best seller at our Chapters here.

[Neutney]

On a side note...what is the difference between tapioca flour and starch. I am using the bob's red mill but on it, it says flour/starch. Could that be the issue...on the package it says Tapioca Flour...also known as tapioca starch. So...is there a difference and could this be the case? If so, what should I be using this as, flour or starch?

[AzizaRivers]

Tapioca flour and tapioca starch are the same, just different names (note that this is not necessarily the case with other flour/starches, sometimes there is a difference).

You said you were open to other recipes...try this one. It's my favorite. It's from Gluten Free Goddess. Karina's recipes are amazing.Open Original Shared Link

[Takala]

On a side note...what is the difference between tapioca flour and starch. I am using the bob's red mill but on it, it says flour/starch. Could that be the issue...on the package it says Tapioca Flour...also known as tapioca starch. So...is there a difference and could this be the case? If so, what should I be using this as, flour or starch?

_________

Tapioca flour and starch are the same.

Looking at this recipe, it looks like a total dud. Between the lack of xanthan gum and no egg substitute, no other protein or gum, and all that water, geez, what is supposed to be holding this together ?

It only has 2 cups of flour. That makes a very small loaf, not a full sized one. What size bread pan are you using ? Try adding a cup of gluten free flour, and some sort of gum, at the rate of 1 teaspoon of xanthan gum per 1 cup of gluten free flour, for a total of 3 cups of flour and 3 teasp. of gum and 1 and 1/2 cups of water. Because this recipe is balking, I would go ahead and try to do it as a yeast flavored soda rise bread at first, by adding some baking soda to it, about a 1/4 teasp. per cup of flour, or about a teaspoon to this recipe. The soda and vinegar will give it some more rise. Let it puff up once for a short rise period, maybe 10 minutes, because these soda breads do it faster than yeast, and then bake it. This can be done with any unbaked yeast dough that is sitting there not cooperating, just mix up some baking soda and a little bit more flour, and knead/stir it in thoroughly with a bit of cider vinegar, if you don't want to throw out the whole batch.

You may be wondering what sorts of flour to add. You can either up the tapioca and cornstarch or arrowroot, or you can add a 4th kind of gluten free flour, to get 3 cups total.

OR, (simplest) cut down the amount of water to 3/4 to one cup !

As others have said, you don't want to be using an old bread machine on this, other than the settings, it's difficult to clean them up to get them gluten free if they were used for regular baking. Try to get recipes to work in a regular oven first, or you can cut them down and make them in a small bowl in the microwave with a vinegar and baking soda leavening, to test the taste and texture of the gluten free flours.

Gluten free baking has to use something to replace the gridwork provided by the gluten in the wheat. Typically, that is egg, egg white, yogurt, grated cheese, or xanthan or guar gum, flax and hot water or chia seed and hot water to make a gel, and some kinds of gluten free flours are stickier than others, such as tapioca, amaranth, and almond meal flours. Some recipes use gelatin, but as you are finding out, it isn't working out so well.

Other flours are notoriously crumbly, like rice flour. You may want to increase the amount of oil used.

To test for doneness, take a table setting knife and stick it into the loaf - it should come out clean. If it does not, put the bread back into the oven and continue baking at 5 to 10 minute intervals. Sometimes gluten-free breads need to be tipped out of their pans and finished the last 5 minutes by baking tipped on their sides or upside down across the empty pan, to get the sides to dry out enough.

[Neutney]

_________

Tapioca flour and starch are the same.

Looking at this recipe, it looks like a total dud. Between the lack of xanthan gum and no egg substitute, no other protein or gum, and all that water, geez, what is supposed to be holding this together ?

It only has 2 cups of flour. That makes a very small loaf, not a full sized one. What size bread pan are you using ? Try adding a cup of gluten free flour, and some sort of gum, at the rate of 1 teaspoon of xanthan gum per 1 cup of gluten free flour, for a total of 3 cups of flour and 3 teasp. of gum and 1 and 1/2 cups of water. Because this recipe is balking, I would go ahead and try to do it as a yeast flavored soda rise bread at first, by adding some baking soda to it, about a 1/4 teasp. per cup of flour, or about a teaspoon to this recipe. The soda and vinegar will give it some more rise. Let it puff up once for a short rise period, maybe 10 minutes, because these soda breads do it faster than yeast, and then bake it. This can be done with any unbaked yeast dough that is sitting there not cooperating, just mix up some baking soda and a little bit more flour, and knead/stir it in thoroughly with a bit of cider vinegar, if you don't want to throw out the whole batch.

You may be wondering what sorts of flour to add. You can either up the tapioca and cornstarch or arrowroot, or you can add a 4th kind of gluten free flour, to get 3 cups total.

OR, (simplest) cut down the amount of water to 3/4 to one cup !

As others have said, you don't want to be using an old bread machine on this, other than the settings, it's difficult to clean them up to get them gluten free if they were used for regular baking. Try to get recipes to work in a regular oven first, or you can cut them down and make them in a small bowl in the microwave with a vinegar and baking soda leavening, to test the taste and texture of the gluten free flours.

Gluten free baking has to use something to replace the gridwork provided by the gluten in the wheat. Typically, that is egg, egg white, yogurt, grated cheese, or xanthan or guar gum, flax and hot water or chia seed and hot water to make a gel, and some kinds of gluten free flours are stickier than others, such as tapioca, amaranth, and almond meal flours. Some recipes use gelatin, but as you are finding out, it isn't working out so well.

Other flours are notoriously crumbly, like rice flour. You may want to increase the amount of oil used.

To test for doneness, take a table setting knife and stick it into the loaf - it should come out clean. If it does not, put the bread back into the oven and continue baking at 5 to 10 minute intervals. Sometimes gluten-free breads need to be tipped out of their pans and finished the last 5 minutes by baking tipped on their sides or upside down across the empty pan, to get the sides to dry out enough.

Thanks for all the info.

Please correct me if I am wrong...flax meal plus water usually replaces eggs and the gelatin replaces xanthan gum.

Also, why would the recipe call for tapioca flour...then tapioca starch? Just in case you only had tapioca? I have been using the tapioca as the flour and cornstarch. Would it work with potato starch as well?

[mushroom]

The starches are generally interchangeable. In this case, I am guessing that they definitely wanted 1/4 cup to be tapioca - then you could choose which other starch you wanted/had on hand for the other half cup.

[psawyer]

The starches are generally interchangeable. In this case, I am guessing that they definitely wanted 1/4 cup to be tapioca - then you could choose which other starch you wanted/had on hand for the other half cup.

I agree. One part must be tapioca, but the other part can substitute corn or another starch.

[lizard00]

Yep, as another poster said, water ratio is way too high. It will rise beautifully but crash on you in no time.

I would up the flour to 3 cups, do between 3/4 c and 1 c of water, 3 t of gum (gelatin would do the same, it was used before xanthan became so easily found, and some people can't tolerate xanthan as it is a corn derivitive. You could also use guar gum which is less expensive.)

I have never used a bread machine for gluten-free bread. I usually pour the 'batter' into the loaf pan, pat it down and throw it in my oven on warm for about 30 min or so. I don't let it rise too high, otherwise it'll lose its structure. You want it to rise some more while it's baking.

gluten-free bread is an animal all of its own. Stick with it!

[MelindaLee]

I made the Bob's red mill White Bread recipe off the potato starch package in my "old" bread maker, with no problems. I did watch while it was mixing, though and a couple times, scraped down the sides to make sure everything was incorporated. I made no other adjustments. Good LUCK!