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plumbago

Diagnosed with sleep apnea

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To be fair, you can not know you have asthma. The only real way to tell is doing objective testing. I also didn't think I had celiac disease because I ate bread at every meal and assumed that someone with celiac would be dead if they did that for 20+ years.

I didn't have asthma attacks like they show in movies/TV (movies/TV aren't real, whodathunk!). I was/am a high level athlete in a sport where success is largely predicated on your lungs working well. The only obvious sign that lead to my diagnosis was sleep apnea. I guess I did have more trouble breathing than most of my teammates, but I thought it was just because I was working harder.  

As per this review article, someone with asthma is almost 4x more likely to have an obstructive sleep disorder than a person without asthma. Since there are relatively low-risk medications that can help with asthma (that in my experience did help with comorbid apnea issues), it might be worthwhile to rule it out:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5481327/

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Wellllll, I think I would know if my bronchioles were malfunctioning and I was clogged with mucus!

There are direct physical signs that can diagnose asthma (hyperexpansion of the chest, and expiratory wheezing heard on auscultation of the chest, and so on). And as I said, I did do some of my own PFTs.

We know what the symptoms are of an acute asthma attack and I’ve never had them outside of having a respiratory infection - chest tightness, shortness of breath, wheezing, coughing, and mucus production.

I don’t have symptoms during exercise or at night, I don’t have symptoms two or less times per week (intermittent). In fact, I have no symptoms. I don’t have a chronic cough, recurrent croup, recurrent pneumonia, or wheezy bronchitis, nor is there a family history of asthma. I'll take a look, but I'm afraid I will have to repeat what I said earlier - sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Thanks.

 

 

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Plumbago,

We are just trying to be helpful.

Sometimes as you say a "Cigar is just a Cigar".

How is your Iron?

Your Hemoglobin seemed to be on the low normal side.

Here is a study on Iron status and sleep quality.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480468/

I hope it is helpful.

I don't think you have really bad sleep apnea or your C-reactive proteins would be higher or according to this this research that I came across that says C-RP proteins should be elevated in OSAS.

Here is the research entitled "Elevated levels of C-reactive protein and interleukin-6 in patients with obstructive sleep apnea syndrome are decreased by nasal continuous positive airway pressure."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12615790?dopt=Abstract

they concluded

CONCLUSIONS:

"Levels of CRP and IL-6 and spontaneous production of IL-6 by monocytes are elevated in patients with OSAS but are decreased by nCPAP. Therefore, OSAS is associated with increased risks for cardiovascular morbidity and mortality, and nCPAP may be useful for decreasing these risks." and your C-RP was low normal.

Something doesn't match up?

Again I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

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The study states, "In patients with OSAS, the primary factors influencing levels of CRP were severity of OSAS and body mass index and those influencing levels of IL-6 were body mass index and nocturnal hypoxia." (I did note that we don’t have the hard numbers from that abstract.)

And did you notice it said severity of OSAS and BMI? My post from Nov 2, indicated my BMI varies from 20 to 21. I think it’s key that I’m not overweight. And yes, my sleep apnea was tested at the severe level. While I was in disbelief initially I do have to act on the assumption that it’s accurate and take the appropriate steps for my health.

I know you’re trying to be helpful, and I appreciate it. But when I just posted results of the very test you recommend, I sometimes wonder if anyone’s reading what others are writing! As far as being on the low end of normal, hey, normal’s normal, that’s just where I “live.” As long as I am in range, that’s fine. In October, I donated blood, and my hemoglobin was 13.4.

The asthma connection is indeed an interesting one, and I believe there’s something to that, generally. Just not in my case (to quote a favorite British film from long ago that I've since forgotten the title of, "allow me to know"). Most of what I could find out there takes asthmatics as the starting point, as opposed to those with OSA. There was however one study (from the Middle East, so it was mostly men) that took OSA people as the starting point and then tested them for asthma. For those OSA'ers who had asthma, and there were a lot, the determining RF was obesity.

It's all food for thought, and I have already been planning to get "official" PFTs done at my follow up pulmonology appt. in December.

Plumbago is my all time favorite plant. When I saw it, I instantly fell in love with it. The color is incomparable!
 

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1 hour ago, cyclinglady said:

Not everyone has to be obese to have Sleep Apnea.  Just like not all undiagnosed celiacs are thin.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/12/AR2009061203267.html

Exactly. Am I not making myself clear? I mentioned the obesity in relation to the previous posters' linkages to CRP and asthma.

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Er... a study on celiac disease would say that the biggest risk factors are being white and female, but that doesn't mean that men or POCs can't have celiac. Epidemiology alone isn't a good way to rule out illnesses.

The study does not say that people who have asthma and sleep apnea are always overweight, just that it is a significant risk factor. Being overweight means that your muscles must work harder for you to breathe/maintain open airways, and so it is not a surprise that this can be a tipping factor in predisposed individuals, or exacerbate respiratory illness. I am quite thin, very fit, don't have any official asthma relatives. Asthma, like many allergic disorders isn't something that's been on doctors' radars (unless you're ER sick) until recently, so a lack of ancestors with asthma isn't especially meaningful.

As I say, the only way to know for sure is to be tested. It is good that you will be having this done in any case. Hopefully it will yield some answers for you.

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Hi Plumbago.

I have trouble swallowing food sometimes.  I think that was caused by a vitamin deficiency, maybe B-12 or Vitamin D or both.  I take vitamin D supplements to try and keep my levels up.  I don't know if my swallowing problem will ever go away completely but it does vary some in severity.  I know that it's not sleep apnea but maybe there is a tie-in to it?

I had a friend who used a CPAP machine and it took him a while to get used to it.  But he did and it helped him.

I think using the machine is a lot better option than not breathing. :)

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11 hours ago, GFinDC said:

I have trouble swallowing food sometimes.  I think that was caused by a vitamin deficiency, maybe B-12 or Vitamin D or both.  I take vitamin D supplements to try and keep my levels up.  I don't know if my swallowing problem will ever go away completely but it does vary some in severity.  I know that it's not sleep apnea but maybe there is a tie-in to it?

I had a friend who used a CPAP machine and it took him a while to get used to it.  But he did and it helped him.

I think using the machine is a lot better option than not breathing. :)

GFinDC,

You might not be far wrong with the B-12 that and Iron possibly.

Here is some research I came across that might help you.

"A Case of Plummer-Vinson Syndrome Showing Rapid Improvement of Dysphagia and Esophageal Web after Two Weeks of Iron Therapy."

https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/364820

An this research entitled "Dysphagia resolved with vitamin B12 therapy: a case of esophageal parakeratosis"

https://www.thieme-connect.de/DOI/DOI?10.1055/s-0030-1256285

Here is one on EOE.

entitled "A rare cause of chronic dysphagia: eosinophilic esophagitis"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4171690/

And here is an older on the pathology of the Esophagus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2084620

when they just called Eosinophilic of the  Esophagitis just plain Esophagitis before the term EoE was a diagnosis.

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

As always 2 Timothy 2: 7 “Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things” this included

Posterboy by the Grace of God,

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On 11/17/2018 at 9:32 AM, plumbago said:

But when I just posted results of the very test you recommend, I sometimes wonder if anyone’s reading what others are writing! As far as being on the low end of normal, hey, normal’s normal, that’s just where I “live.” As long as I am in range, that’s fine. In October, I donated blood, and my hemoglobin was 13.4.

The asthma connection is indeed an interesting one, and I believe there’s something to that, generally. Just not in my case (to quote a favorite British film from long ago that I've since forgotten the title of, "allow me to know"). Most of what I could find out there takes asthmatics as the starting point, as opposed to those with OSA. There was however one study (from the Middle East, so it was mostly men) that took OSA people as the starting point and then tested them for asthma. For those OSA'ers who had asthma, and there were a lot, the determining RF was obesity.

Plumbago,

I quoted that selection because they too had similar conditions.

They were serum normal but still benefited from supplementation of B-12 but I agree with you it is probably not the B-12 or your Homocysteine levels would be elevated too?

The low normal hemoglobin might be a sign.

Here is a study about "Anemia of Aging" that shows low normal Hemoglobin to be key in diagnosing OSA in older individuals entitled "Anemia of aging and obstructive sleep apnea"

Linked here for your study

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11325-010-0326-7

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

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Plumbago and Apprehensive Engineer,

I have found a study that unites the theory between OSAS and Asthma.

I found it last week but have not had a time to post it until now.

entitled the "Pulmonary manifestations of gastroesophageal reflux disease".

Hidden down in the "Other Respiratory" paragraph is the discussion about how GERD and OSAS can be linked conditions.

You might even have only Silent GERD or "Chronic Cough" but aspirations into your trachea could cause your airways to become constricted leading to your OSAS conditions triggered by the initial heartburn/GERD conditions.

Here also a research article about this topic from 2008.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279464553_Obstructive_Sleep_Apnea_Syndrome_and_Gastroesophageal_Reflux_Disease

Notice their conclusion. I cant' quote it without formatting problems.

The below quotation from their introduction with formatting cleaned up.

"The prevalence of GERD in patients with OSAS is significantly  higher  than  the general
population. For example, 21 patients with sleep-disorder-ed breathing were found to have GERD (33.3% of snorers, 64.3% of patients with OSAS)."
 
This makes the most sense to me and why I asked you if you are taking PPIs?
But I still think Magnesium Glycinate (easiest to take) form of Magnesium will help if our magnesium test is giving you a false positive.
 
See this thread where I discuss the issues with supplementation.
 
 
and I will quote from some of it so you don't have to read it now.
 

"and why we have two camps essentially (I am speaking in simple terms here for an easy example/analogy)

the supplementors like Ennis_tx and I and the non-supplementors (first, do no harm)

and why We LOVE magnesium with good reason (ennis_tx and I).  It really, really, really, works.

but the non-supplementing camp has to be convinced, really convinced that it can help them.

And often Ennis_tx and I loose that battle for a number of reasons.

Mainly because there are so many, so many forms of Magnesium it is extremely hard to find a "good" bioavailable form with minimal downside risk like Magnesium "flushing" that can be common in higher doses of Magnesium.

so as expert/experienced supplemetnors we pass own our knowledge of Magnesium Glycinate or Magnesium Citrate in divided doses (ie. with each meal) that helps us with our fatigue, energy, cramps, and sleep problems etc.

but the flushing effect of magnesium (Citrates) follows the motto/adage "do no harm" and many will not take it . . . though it does "TONS" more good than it every could do harm.

so it is hard to win the fight if you aren't willing to risk something in return. ie. supplementing with the missing ingredient (whatever that is).

truth is . . . we might not know at the time what is is or ever."

It is me again quote ended.

If you read some of my other links ( I know who has the time)

see this simaron research link

http://simmaronresearch.com/2015/08/epstein-barr-virus-the-magnesium-connection/

It explains very well why you can test "normal" for magnesium but still be low in it.

quoting

"The vast majority (95%) of the magnesium in our body is bound in our cells but it’s the 5% that’s unbound that makes the difference in our immune response.  The XMEN patients studied – some of whom had developed lymphoma – had normal levels of bound magnesium in their cells but reduced levels of unbound magnesium."
 
taking Magnesium Glycinate 2/day for a couple weeks will/could really help your sleep quality/issues by producing REM and vivid dreams.
 
The Magnesium will have physiological response in the body if you are low in it even if your tests show normal.
 
I know almost No-One who takes it (Magnesium) who doesn't benefit from it. When taken in a highly bioavailable form like Magnesium Glycinate.
 
That is why I suggested to be conservative and try Epsom Salts first .... to see if Magnesium is low (but your tests) were not ... .this would test the theory?
 
Be conservative and only take it (Magnesium Glyciante) 2/day for the first 2 weeks to see how your body responds.
 
Since Magnesium Glycinate does not flush the way Magnesium Citrate(s) can  ..... .it can be upped to each meal and bedtime after two weeks.
 
IF you do not have kidney issue(s) . . .the body actively self regulate through the kidneys your magnesium levels then taking Magnesium Gylcinate will not hurt you.
 
But I can't decide that for you.  You will  have to decide that for yourself.
 
I can only tell you it helped ME tremendously.  I think Ennis_tx would concur and IT helps my friends who will take it!
 
But sadly only about a 1/3 of my friends (if that) will try Magnesium because of the issues of finding the right bioavailable form and the "flushing" that comes with taking Magnesium Citrate(s) in higher amounts especially on an empty stomach.
 
As I said I Posterboy blog post "You are not a Pike! You can decide for yourself. Knowledge is power!"
 
 
Now what will you do with it?  Most people would/might conclude I would (take the Vitamin/Mineral (in this case aka Magnesium) ..... but you/I can't do (generally) what we don't believe in?
 
You must take a leap of faith and try the Magnesium Glycinate form or try the Espom Salts to trial this theory? or Wonder if it is possible (despite) what your "normal tests" show?
 
I quoted the B-12 research because at NO time did their serum levels change . . .. but their sleep quality DID!
 
This is after 10 or 12 years of suffering and their sleep quality improved on supplementation.
 
I believe this is the case for Magnesium in probably 75% of the population.
 
We are said to "Waste away" without enough Magnesium because the Krebs cycle is interrupted in our bodies and we can no longer make enough energy to function properly. . ..
 
Living at otherwise sub-clinical "healthy" levels that is far, far from healthy.
 
Much like Knitty Kitty has to have higher Vitamin D than is "normal" to feel better.
 
The standards or (tests) are set so low that by the time you know you are low in Vitamin D or Magnesium in this (your) case . . .you are already sick?
 
This is not medical advice but I hope it is helpful.

As always“Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things” this included.

2 Timothy 2: 7

I truly hope it helps you (if) you have faith to take it (Magnesium Glycinate) despite your seemingly "normal" levels though as I quoted/noted earlier in this thread.

From this research on Magnesium supplementation in Vitamin D deficiency.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28471760

"Screening for chronic magnesium deficiency is difficult because a normal serum level may still be associated with moderate to severe deficiency. To date, there is no simple and accurate laboratory test to determine the total body magnesium status in humans."

And this sense makes the most sense to me. . ..it is too easy not to try.

But few, very few ever do ... when they think they levels are already normal?

So why would I supplement?

I have rambled on long enough again, ,, . .. and again it is always too long!

Plumbago KNOW I would help you in any way if I could.

But you are going to have to decide this for yourself!

"Learn from my mistakes!" I always say.  I know how to supplement with Magnesium because I have supplemented wrong first myself!

Posterboy by the grace of God,

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