gluten-free in Europe?

[JasonK74]

Hello!  my daughter is 11 and has celiac.  We eat a gluten-free diet in the US but were wondering if she could eat regular bread and gluten products while in Western Europe??  We have read a lot of sites where people state they ate bread and pastries and were fine. Please help. We do not want our daughter to be miserable on vacation. I know there are a lot of gluten-free options across Europe, and we have mapped them out, just in case.  Any help would be appreciated!!!

[kareng]

16 minutes ago, JasonK74 said:

Hello!  my daughter is 11 and has celiac.  We eat a gluten-free diet in the US but were wondering if she could eat regular bread and gluten products while in Western Europe??  We have read a lot of sites where people state they ate bread and pastries and were fine. Please help. We do not want our daughter to be miserable on vacation. I know there are a lot of gluten-free options across Europe, and we have mapped them out, just in case.  Any help would be appreciated!!!

No.  Gluten is gluten.  Please don’t make your daughter sick on vacation.  Public restrooms are not as easy to find in other countries.  Often they are pay toilets, too.  Could get pricey if you gluten your child.  ?

Edited May 28, 2019 by kareng

[kareng]

Think about this - if There is something magical about Europe that makes gluten safe for Celiacs- why would they still sell so much gluten-free stuff at the groceries?  Why have gluten-free bakeries?  Why have such good laws about gluten-free food and labeling?

what I have found is that a lot of these people probably don’t actually have Celiac.  There are a lot of self diagnosed out there.  Also, for some Celiacs that have been gluten-free and healed for a few years- a bit of gluten might not be felt.  Also, people will blame the symptoms on something else if they want to justify eating gluten 

[JasonK74]

Thank you. I needed the real answer. Her health is always more important than anything. No chances are worth her feeling terribly. 

[cyclinglady]

The answer is sadly no.  Lots of theories out there about different wheat or longer rising times for bread though.  But the reality is there are plenty of celiacs in Europe.  I recall Finland being the country with the most celiacs.  Italy might be next.  They also seem to have lots of research out of Scandinavia and Italy as a result.  

The good news is that Finland is a great place to visit if you have celiac disease.  We loved it there.   The same goes for Italy.  You can even find gluten-free processed foods in any pharmacy.  We have had harder times trying to find gluten free in France.  But it has been a couple of years, so that may have changed.  We even stayed in England in a gluten-free Bed and Breakfast and enjoyed a farm stay there too.  

We took celiac gluten free cards in several languages.  We also bought lots of food from markets and picnicked (bring or purchase some basic cutlery with you).  Saved a lot of money that way too.  We ate simple things at hotels like yogurt and hard boiled eggs.  We research and try to find dedicated gluten-free restaurants where ever we go.  At least find some safe restaurants based on reviews by celiacs.  

Have fun!  You can do it!  We met many celiacs as a result.  People are usually so kind and helpful.  Make sure you have food with you always (shelf-stable).  We are usually disappointed on airplanes.  Even when I double check, they forget gluten-free meals.  Be prepared for that and finding food at airports.  

Edited May 28, 2019 by cyclinglady

[AsAnAside]

I found this article because I'm researching this exact idea. As an aside, here's my experience. Take it for what it is: personal experience.

My sister doesn't have celiac (that we're aware of). That said, she can't eat gluten or regular milk without have an extremely severe and painful reaction, making her unable to perform normal daily functions, and making it very hard to sleep because of the pain. HOWEVER. She can have grass-fed milk from the USA, and milk and glutenous wheat from other countries (such as Europe). She still has a reaction, but it's extremely mild, no worse than a gurgley tummy.

So there is clearly a difference between glutenous products in the USA and other countries. And I would encourage anyone with celiac to look into that. Scientific research is entirely based on statistics, relying on high majorities, not absolutes, for their findings. While doctors and experts are certainly worth listening to, you'll never know if you're in a minority group if you (or an expert) don't explore that possibility. What can you or your loved one handle?

I'd like to remind people that Lyme disease was originally discredited by the majority scientific community. The doctors who paved the way to addressing that disease... they were often slandered as quacks. But I know people who went to some of those doctors in that time period, and they are healthy now because of it.

There is no progress without delving into the unknown. Perhaps don't experiment on vacation, haha! The point of a vacation is to have fun, so don't do things that will likely result in pain. But don't dismiss this fact: there are people who can't eat gluten in the USA, but can eat gluten in other countries. Why? Are you one of those people? Go, listen to others. But also find out for yourself.

As another aside, Kareng asked,

Quote

"Why would [Europe] still sell so much gluten-free stuff at the groceries?  Why have gluten-free bakeries?  Why have such good laws about gluten-free food and labeling?"

...as if the answer is obvious. But it's not.

Here are some answers.

• 1. Because people early-on in the learning process need a safe harbor. It's easier to experiment from a baseline of "safe diet" than from the wilds of pain and confusion.
• 2. Because it's popular. Celiac aside, Kareng herself mentioned people "self-diagnosing". Going "gluten free" is not merely a valid diet. It's ALSO a fad. Popular fads make money. Entire industries have been built around dietary/health fads.
• 3. Because it tastes good. Yes, I'm serious. I personally enjoy a lot of gluten free goods (especially crackers) more than the glutenous kinds. I have absolutely no noticeable reaction to gluten, but I prefer Canyon brand breads as toast more than others. I've always loved the texture of mochi and other chewy rice-cakes; and now that "gluten free" is important (for various reasons), people put the label on things that most of us already knew weren't glutenous.
• 4. As for laws: because truth is truth. Health and money aside, I don't want anyone lying about their product simply for the moral reasons. A lot of people in the business of law do so because they're very principled people (whether their principles are good is another topic entirely).

And finally,

• 5. Because, yes, some people can't handle gluten, even in Europe.

...but is that you?

Are there no exceptions among celiac?

When it comes to science, don't believe anyone who says "there are no exceptions" because, in my personal experience, there always are exceptions. The origin of science was a search for truth, but academia has become inundated with the influence of money, politics, prideful vainglory, and the sunken-cost fallacy. What is said about celiac may be 100% true for you. Maybe you're content with your life right now. If so, cool.

For the rest of you, take this as an encouragement to discover the truth about your body. Maybe what is said about celiac isn't 100% true for you. Who knows, maybe your research will lead to a powerful discovery. Return to the origin of science. Find out what is currently unknown. That's what science is supposed to be: a search.

So search. Experiment. Maybe some of those people who said, "I can eat gluten in Europe" aren't self-diagnosed. Maybe they really do have celiac. Maybe they put in the work to experiment and search, and were rewarded for it. You can listen to as many sides as you want, but until you get to know your own body, you won't know the truth.

So go, dive into the unknown. Accept the dangers involved, and get to know your own body.

Or don't.

[Scott Adams]

Welcome to the forum. 

If your sister has gluten sensitivity, as you claim, then she should not be eating wheat from any country, including any European wheat, but it is possible that she may tolerate certain strains better than others. Gluten sensitivity is not the same thing as celiac disease, which is an autoimmune disease. Because of this she may have more leeway to experiment than those with celiac disease, but the research with non-celiac gluten sensitivity is ongoing, and the long-term health effects of those who eat gluten are still to be determined.

Much science on celiac disease comes directly from European scientists, none of which claim, with the exception of Einkorn, that there is any difference between wheat in most European products vs. American ones. Celiacs just can't eat it, and the gut test you describe--whether or not you get an upset stomach--is in no way a scientific method to determine whether you are having a bad reaction to gluten or not, as many celiacs have no symptoms at all, but still need to avoid gluten.

People who are diagnosed with celiac disease should not "dive into the unknown" to "discover the truth about your body." They need to avoid gluten for life, otherwise they could have serious health consequences. Would you make this same speech to diabetics? Honey is different from refined sugar, just dive in an discover the truth about your body?

[AsAnAside]

Thanks for the welcome, mate.

I question your understanding of my argument.

When I wrote "dive into the unknown", do you think I'm saying "just start eating gluten and see what happens"? But everything I said was in the context of research (and I even explicitly wrote, "...maybe your research..."). When I wrote "dive in to the unknown", I meant it to be as vague and broad and all-encompassing as it is, because there is a great deal involved in this.

My focus isn't on "eating gluten" or "eating sugar" (in the case of diabetics). These are merely relevant examples. My focus is on:

• 1. The fallibility of the modern scientific process, and
• 2. The reliance on an expert majority as if majority = absolute.

The reason I felt compelled to actually reply to this thread was because of a specific manner of response which Jason got. I didn't respond just to say, "Yeah! Go, eat gluten on vacation." (I deliberately specified not to do that, in order to avoid misunderstandings.) I agree with the answer, "Stay gluten free." What provoked me to reply is the assumptions and mindsets behind statements such as what you wrote,

Quote

"They need to avoid gluten for life"

I know people (and know of people) who have been cured from multiple "uncurable", "lifelong" diseases. Some of these healings were miraculous via an extra-natural experience with the spirit of Jesus. But some of these healings were natural, occurring via a dramatic change in diet and lifestyle; or other, new treatments. Again, I'll point to the progress made in treating Lyme disease.

How many discoveries and inventions came about because someone refused to agree with the prevailing majority opinion? How many beneficial things exist because someone had the gall to imagine and hope for what everyone else said was impossible? How many cures have been discovered? How many more cures are out there to be found?

That is my speech.

I'm not denying the reality of celiac. I'm denying and utterly rejecting the certainty with which folk resign themselves (and others) to an idea of "incurability". Whether celiac, diabetes, cancer, schizophrenia, paralysis, down syndrome, or sin itself (or any problem at all ever), I'd make the same speech—because my speech isn't about the specifics of each problem, but about our acceptance of the problem's inevitability ...often due to "science".

Or, rather, due to our misunderstanding of "science".

The origin of science was to seek more knowledge. Science, by definition, is a dive into the unknown. We observe data and make hypotheses (imaginations; fantasies), and test, and press on to find connections (more knowledge). Whether it's simple (baking soda volcano time anyone?) or complex (papers I can't begin to decode), observations are observations. My sister's symptoms are observations. Variables. Data to take into account for her situation. Fact: she's in agony when she eats common wheat here in the USA. Fact: she isn't in agony when she eats organic wheat or wheat from other countries. Why? Hypothesis: something in non-organic, common, American wheat causes her body to recognize gluten in such a way that it attacks itself.

...but I'm not saying that's what the problem is. It's just an example, pulled from data in her situation and from my research on wheat and gluten and pain. It's a hypothesis. A possibility; imagination; a fantasy that might be reality. It's data, used in a scientific manner. We're exploring; and, for her, it's made her quality of life increase.

I'm not saying that her specific situation is the same as anyone reading this (though it can be). All I'm doing is giving data for people to process. I'm giving examples of how to think about celiac (or diabetes, or anything). Specific tests that work for my sister might not work for people in different situations; I'd expect that. If people with celiac don't have immediate, noticeable symptoms, then it's pointless to pay attention to what occurs in the moment of gluten-consumption.

...but that doesn't mean there are no tests they can do. Don't discredit "experimentation" simply by saying that my example experiments won't work. If my examples won't work, then go find ones that will!! Don't get stuck focusing on the specifics of my examples. Instead, digest the principles behind my examples.

That's why I'm using examples. I'm using a tree to show people the forest.

There are laws of reality which govern all things. (Theoretical physicists know this. Because of the work of men and women in these fields, such as Einstein, we've accomplished feats of engineering that once existed purely in fiction. The same is true for medicine.) But people don't believe in these higher laws because they're taught, "Your problem is inevitable; lifelong; no you can't ever eat glutenous things again" (in other words, "There is no law that can lead to your salvation") ...or they don't believe because they searched for salvation and became bitter or discouraged in the face of failure, and thus stopped.

But I can't stop. And it's my role as a human to lift the chins of the downlooking, and turn their faces so that they see the light of the promise of health. Foremost, that's the promise of resurrection from the dead unto eternal life, found only in relationship with Jesus. Second, that's the promise of his wisdom and power in this life, not just the next.

There is both a natural and extranatural cure for celiac. But who will find it if no one is looking? You can leave that search to the experts. That's a valid choice. But some of you need (and want) the exhortation to go become one of those experts; and in case you think I mean, "go to school and copy them" (which you can; that's a valid choice), let me remind you that not every discovery was found by an accredited professional. Quacks and fake miracle healers do exist; but a lot of legitimate scientists and children of God were slandered by the culture before being vindicated by their findings. These scientists (inventors, explorers, doctors, saints, call them what you want) would never have have discovered what exists in the 1% they relied on the 99% as if it was 100%.

The 99% isn't entirely untrue; it's incomplete. So instead of relying on what is already supposedly known, go seek to complete the knowledge.

But that takes guts. That takes effort and time and sweat and tears. It takes faith that there is a cure to be found. And a lot of the time, the people who care enough to go swimming in the great unknown are the ones suffering from the affliction themselves. They're so done with suffering that they'll suffer what it takes to find salvation; and they're the ones who find it.

Those are the people I'm writing for: those who will seek Jesus as the one who has the answer for every question (be the answer natural or extranatural). This isn't a hypothesis for me. I've seen him do it. Those who seek him diligently with all their hearts ...they will find him. This is observable and testable and it's been repeated many times over; and I've already explained why many still disbelieve.

No matter the topic, celiac or otherwise, the reason why people don't have the solution is always the same. They don't look for it (or they stop looking) because they don't believe. Therefore the solution is always the same: just believe there is a cure, and seek it. When the problem is your own body, then you'll end up getting to know your body; and you'll end up being able to help others who have the same disease. Everyone wins!

...except those who don't believe.

That's what I'm saying.

So, yes, I'd give the same speech to anyone, including those with diabetes, because the problem I'm addressing is that of "disbelief" and why people remain stuck in it. I don't know what the cure for celiac is, but I know how to get it; and when I see mindsets of disbelief and phrasing that propagates disbelief, I'm provoked to respond and clear the way for those who need the encouragement to keep believing.

Whether our pursuits are physical (engineering, medicine, psychology, etc.) or spiritual (God), we won't make progress if we don't have faith that there is something to pursue, and that we will be rewarded in the finding.