Wheat, Barly, Rye; Why Didn't Our Ancestors Notice It?

[dogle]

Entire generations suffered from this disease, I tend to imagine that they poisoned themselves without even noticing it. One doesn't drink gasoline, plastic, etc, because we all know the consequences. I mean, just imagine for how long our ancestors suffered, entire generations, millions of people. If wheat, barly or rye hadn't been introduced into Europe and America I think things would have been better. I think this disease had a great impact in societies back then, I don't know, this is my thought.

[Lisa]

Although this is a 2004 article, it still is a little disturbing:

Open Original Shared Link

I have a friend that is a diagnosed Celiac and has travel to some of the most remote areas of the world, where farming and harvesting has been done the same way for centuries. She is able to eat wheat products without any issues.

[nasalady]

10,000 years ago, when our ancestors began to practice real agriculture, there were so many ways to die that they wouldn't have noticed a subtle little thing like celiac disease. If someone had gastro problems, that would have been fairly normal, given no refrigeration, no sanitation, etc. I'm sure everyone had amoebic dysentery, worms, you name it, they had it. And they usually died before their 30th birthdays, anyway.

But people have done studies about the geographic distribution of celiacs and how that is related to the history of agriculture. See the abstract by Cronin and Shanahan, below:

"Why is celiac disease so common in Ireland?"

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From the abstract:

"Simoons (1978, 1981) hypothesized that the present-day prevalence of celiac disease across Europe is related to the interaction between genetic gradients, largely determined by the advance of agriculture, and historical patterns of cereal ingestion. This essay examines Simoons' hypothesis as it relates to Ireland, reviews the ethnic and genetic mix of those living on the island of Ireland and aspects of Irish dietary history, and considers how these factors may have combined to result in a high frequency of celiac disease."

My impression from the little bit of reading that I've done (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that there are fewer celiacs in parts of the world where grains were grown and harvested earlier, simply because celiac disease has weeded out those who were susceptible. In more primitive societies, celiac disease kills many children before they reach the age of 5. So celiac disease would be more prevalent in areas where agriculture (at least, the growing of wheat, barley and rye) has been practiced for a shorter period of time, because the "selection effect" hasn't eliminated it yet.

[curiousgeorge]

I am convinced both my grandmothers suffered from celiac. ONe spent almost her entire life in bed sick and depressed and died in her early 70's in 1960's and the other died at 47 of intestinal cancer after suffering type 1 diabestes for years and died in 1941. I suspect that those that suffered as adults simply died earlier. I know in the UK and Ireland in the past, famine was an issue and people were lucky to have bread. Perhaps it was a blessing in disguise that they had nothing to eat but potato.

[YoloGx]

I am busy getting ready for a art show right now however I want to get back to this subject later on. Thing is I have read the results of anthropological research which indicate that people used to live longer plus were taller and healthier before gluten was introduced in northern Europe. The thing that convinced many to go towards gluten however is that then they could live in one place and not have to have a more nomadic existence as they had in the past. They thus lived shorter but in some ways more stable and cultured lives with gluten. More on this later...

Bea

[Tim-n-VA]

I've heard several speculation explanations posed as "need to be studied":

1) Modern agriculture has increased the protein content of grains and human could handle the original/natural grains better.

2) Modern sanitation standards have left the immune systems with less to do, resulting in them "looking" for other things to do.

3) Wheat causing some percentage of the population to be sick would probably be preferred to the entire population starving, therefore it wouldn't be noticed.

[lbd]

At no time in history have humans eaten the amounts of grains that we do now. It is all too apparent to the gluten sensitive just how many products contain grains, and products made from grains that contain gluten. I doubt if our early ancestors were ever exposed to as much grain in their daily diets as we have now. Bread is a chore to make and grinding grain to make flour would have required extensive labor. Plus, even eating bread and baked goods, humankind did not have gluten added to every other food as well. The prevalence of gluten in everything today is a reflection of the agricultural industry and government misinformation that grains are an essential part of our diet. The food pyramid changed in the 70s and 80s to emphasizing huge amounts of grain intake. Guess who developed it? The USDA. The newer pyramid today still reflects the influence of the agricultural lobbies.

Why in the world do some spaghetti sauces contain gluten? Or soy sauce? Or so many other products? As a child in the 60s and 70s, I don't remember the huge amount of grain and sugar-based junk we now have available. High fructose corn syrup is added to everything. Why? Because it is a way to get rid of the excess corn this country produces and is cheaper than real sugar.

Enough of my rant...I am so tired of being manipulated by industries pretending to look out for our welfare.

Laurie

[Mtndog]

I am busy getting ready for a art show right now however I want to get back to this subject later on. Thing is I have read the results of anthropological research which indicate that people used to live longer plus were taller and healthier before gluten was introduced in northern Europe. The thing that convinced many to go towards gluten however is that then they could live in one place and not have to have a more nomadic existence as they had in the past. They thus lived shorter but in some ways more stable and cultured lives with gluten. More on this later...

Bea

I've always found this to be a fascinating topic. My grandmother dies of stomach cancer in 1956 and since, many of her children and grandchilden have been diagnosed with celiac so, I think people DID suffer from the disease and likely did not know what it was.

But as someone pointed out, glutens underwent a very different fermentation process. Also, geographical area dictated crops that could be grown. For instance, people of Irish descent may suffer more celiac, but those of African descent are more likely to be lactose intolerant.

Gluten wasn't perfect even way back. Remember the Salem Witch Trials? There's a strong theory that the girls hallucinations/hysteria were caused by a bad rye crop!

[Tallforagirl]

I have a friend that is a diagnosed Celiac and has travel to some of the most remote areas of the world, where farming and harvesting has been done the same way for centuries. She is able to eat wheat products without any issues.

I'm interested what you mean by this. How does she know she has no issues? What made her decide to give the wheat a try if she's Celiac?

[purple]

Todays food supply is being tampered with. GMO food is dangerous to our body. Ever wonder why so much of our food supply is toxic. The same ones that created chemicals and pesticides "create" our food. 90% of our wheat is GMO and 80% of corn and soy is GMO.

Open Original Shared Link

scroll to: GMO Food Causes Diseases and Are Unsafe To Eat

[sbj]

Why didn't our ancestors notice it?

They did!

"As far back as the second century, a Greek physician named Aretaeus of Cappadocia wrote detailed descriptions of celiac disease symptoms in children and adults, including diarrhea with fatty stools, gassiness, wasting, weakness, and pallor. Aretaeus called his patients by the Greek word koiliakos, which meant "suffering in the bowels."

[ravenwoodglass]

Gluten wasn't perfect even way back. Remember the Salem Witch Trials? There's a strong theory that the girls hallucinations/hysteria were caused by a bad rye crop!

That wasn't caused by the rye itself but from a fungus called ergot that infested the crops.

Another reason why most folks even today don't equate how bad they feel on gluten with what they have eaten lies in the delayed reaction that many of us experience. With allergies it is really obvious really quick but with gluten that isn't always the case, at least until we give it up. It is like when someone gets food poisoning they immediately blame the last thing they ate when in reality it is usually something they consumed from 12 hours to 3 days before. Before bread became something you bought and gluten was added to everything from orange juice to candy to soups to...well you name it folks weren't consuming it in everything they ate or drank and the symptoms were probably not a daily occurance for many.

They also are finding that people who live in areas that don't consume a lot of wheat can and do develop issues with it once they start eating a more western type of diet. This can be a real issue when the food we send to countries that are in need contains large amounts of gluten. I sometimes wonder if some of the dysentery type symptoms that they see in refugee camps and such might be related at times to high gluten levels that are given to folks that have never natually consumed it in great quantities.

[curiousgeorge]

A friend and her sister both have IBS symptoms. I have told both of them to get celiac testing and one specifically said oh I don't have that. I can eat anything. ROLLING EYES. Yeah, I was like that too, it was the tomatos, the lettuce, the instert what you like. I had one HORRID episode after having a coffee and a donut and said how could a donut make me sick. DUH.

I'd like to see that anthropological study. I have a masters degree in physical anthropology.

[maile]

I had one HORRID episode after having a coffee and a donut and said how could a donut make me sick. DUH.

lol, it was a donut that got me as well

sorry, back to the thread!

[Baillie]

The Ancestors... I come from 3/4 Irish and 1/4 Scottish... and, you guessed it, not one of the living ones got tested - even after I gave them a Christmas gift of my 'celiac' disclosure. - 3 years ago!

So... my personal theory... I think I know why the Scot's wore/wear kilts... It starts with 'D'. It's all about convenience and practicality... and folks want to know what they wear underneath??? Ha!

Cheers, Baillie

[psawyer]

The Ancestors... I come from 3/4 Irish and 1/4 Scottish... and, you guessed it, not one of the living ones got tested - even after I gave them a Christmas gift of my 'celiac' disclosure. - 3 years ago!

So... my personal theory... I think I know why the Scot's wore/wear kilts... It starts with 'D'. It's all about convenience and practicality... and folks want to know what they wear underneath??? Ha!

Cheers, Baillie

I am also one fourth Scottish, and I just had to laugh at your explanation for wearing kilts!

[mushroom]

So... my personal theory... I think I know why the Scot's wore/wear kilts... [unquote/]

ROFL

[MollyBeth]

At no time in history have humans eaten the amounts of grains that we do now. It is all too apparent to the gluten sensitive just how many products contain grains, and products made from grains that contain gluten. I doubt if our early ancestors were ever exposed to as much grain in their daily diets as we have now. Bread is a chore to make and grinding grain to make flour would have required extensive labor. Plus, even eating bread and baked goods, humankind did not have gluten added to every other food as well. The prevalence of gluten in everything today is a reflection of the agricultural industry and government misinformation that grains are an essential part of our diet. The food pyramid changed in the 70s and 80s to emphasizing huge amounts of grain intake. Guess who developed it? The USDA. The newer pyramid today still reflects the influence of the agricultural lobbies.

Why in the world do some spaghetti sauces contain gluten? Or soy sauce? Or so many other products? As a child in the 60s and 70s, I don't remember the huge amount of grain and sugar-based junk we now have available. High fructose corn syrup is added to everything. Why? Because it is a way to get rid of the excess corn this country produces and is cheaper than real sugar.

Enough of my rant...I am so tired of being manipulated by industries pretending to look out for our welfare.

Laurie

Wow, Laurie... Interesting perspective. I never thought of it that way. Growing up as a farmers daughter...I guess I wouldn't! What a different perspective...I'm going to explore it more.

Just a little bit of irony though...My father farmed corn, Wheat and soybeans...but grain was a very little part of our diet! We were a meat and potatoes family all the way!

[lbd]

I, too, grew up in the country surrounded by farms and farmers and I have nothing but respect for those that actually work the land. The problem is in the agricutural industry and government lobbyists that work for them. These are not farmers but big businesses, who seek to promote their products in any way possible, including putting that product into everything we eat, needed or not.

I think the first book that opened my eyes to this was "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan. Despite the title, it is not a book about being vegetarian - it is about industrial farming and what it has done to our food. I grew up with vegetable gardens and nearby orchards and local food supplies for food. My mother made baked goods but infrequently - daily desserts were not a thing at my house. I can remember my mother buying a six-pack of Coke (12 oz bottles in those days) and saying that they had to last all week (we had a family of 8!). I think some of my students drink that much Coke alone in one day! At least Coke had real sugar in those days and not HFCS.

Our increased intake of grain and sugar is directly related to the nonsense that is spewed out daily about "whole grain goodness" and "natural" products. There are even commercials for high fructose corn syrup now!

It blows my mind - it's no wonder our bodies are finally rebelling against the abuse. There was probably a time when our bodies (those that aren't celiac) could handle mild amounts of toxic gluten and deal with it, but add that to excess sugars, artificial colors and sweeteners, chemical preservatives, exposures to environmental toxins, etc, etc. - we are experiencing toxic overload.

Laurie

[coldnight]

I don't know if any of you have read any of Michael Pollan's stuff, but he kind of touches on this a little, at least with the modern diet.

Thinking back to what my grandparents ate, they did eat bread, but they also ate mostly meat, like venison which they would get almost every year, and they grew their own vegetables, or bought them locally. So, no pesticides, GM... etc. I think diet has changed a lot, it's hard to find foods that aren't GM or don't contain wheat.

Also, our wheat has been modified and bred over the centuries to be one of the top producing grains. None of the grains our distance ancestors ate would have had the same protein content. Nor would have have eat so much of it, I think they would have stuck to meat and vegetables, or beans (I lump them altogether.), and occasionally have bread. But it would be fairly obvious that is bread made you ill, you could fairly easily avoid it. It seems like now, they put wheat into anything they possibly can, probably because America grows so much of it.

I think in some parts of the world, they still eat very little wheat. I always like to ask people what they eat in general, and your average indian or chinese person probably eats much less wheat, more rice, fish, and lots of vegetables.

I'm not sure what to make of Michael Pollan yet, I just started his "In Defense of Food," but the premise of the book is that nutritional science has taken over the food industry, so as long as the right nutrients are there, you are eating healthy, even if it's store bought meals... etc. Whereas, meats and vegetables have always been fairly healthy choices in moderation.

Back to my grandfather who lived healthy and well into his eighties, he worked a lot of physical labor, but he also ate what a doctor would call a horrendous diet. He also smoked for 50 years. But he would eat sausage and eggs for breakfast, maybe a sandwich for lunch, then potatoes, meat and lots of greens for dinner. So, he had bread, but probably not nearly as much wheat as you could eat these days.

Anyway, that's kind of out of order, but I tend to agree with the previous posters, that you'd think europeans would have adapted better to wheat by now, like they have cow's milk (somewhat better, not universal, just statistically), but I'm not sure they can keep up with the increase in protein. That has been a specific goal of the industry, to wheat that is more productive, untampered with wild wheat would be much less so, I think.

Anyway, good topic, I have wondered a lot about this myself. Still don't know if I have celiac disease yet, hope enterolab can give me a better answer, but it makes a dramatic difference for me.

[solarglobe]

The Ancestors... I come from 3/4 Irish and 1/4 Scottish... and, you guessed it, not one of the living ones got tested - even after I gave them a Christmas gift of my 'celiac' disclosure. - 3 years ago!

So... my personal theory... I think I know why the Scot's wore/wear kilts... It starts with 'D'. It's all about convenience and practicality... and folks want to know what they wear underneath??? Ha!

Cheers, Baillie

Absolutely lol about the kilts!! I am 3/4 Scottish! I've been listening to my mother's digestive horror stories for years! Just thought it was normal growing up and into adulthood. And it finally all clicked with me a few months ago -- after many doctors and many years of searching for answers! So...I've finally found relief. But will any of my Scottish relatives 'acknowledge' anything that could possibly be wrong -- or changed by their diet! No way! Even with me as living proof that a gluten-free diet can make such a huge difference! It's frustrating because I know my mother could be helped so much, if she would just give it a try.

In the meantime, I am very interested in the genetic history and "roots" of celiac and gluten intolerance. Am reading anything and everything I can find about it.

[LuvMoosic4life]

Although this is a 2004 article, it still is a little disturbing:

Open Original Shared Link

I have a friend that is a diagnosed Celiac and has travel to some of the most remote areas of the world, where farming and harvesting has been done the same way for centuries. She is able to eat wheat products without any issues.

on this same note. there is a great video on this. its a litte long, but I was completely disgusted when I saw it

Open Original Shared Link

[caek-is-a-lie]

Our ancestors did notice it. In fact, the word Celiac is a derivative of the Greek word "koiliakos": Latin coeliacus, from Greek koiliakos, from koili, abdomen, from koilos, hollow. Open Original Shared Link Yes, the Greeks diagnosed Celiac thousands of years ago. I'm sure Celiac is as old as agriculture itself.

It has been known for a long time, but it seems that modern medicine likes to ignore conventional wisdom gathered over the ages as it is "antiquated" and not seen as relevant. The more I learn about modern medicine, the less I am impressed. It is one of my biggest hopes that my work in medical research will one day open some eyes and make a big difference in how patients are diagnosed in treated for these common, yet commonly misunderstood disorders. And not just treated medically, but treated as a person as well! I haven't found my niche yet but I'm working on it.

[caek-is-a-lie]

I think I know why the Scot's wore/wear kilts... It starts with 'D'.

OMG rotfl!!! I bet you're right. But it doesn't explain the bagpipes. I read somewhere that Celiac is so prevalent in Ireland that it's a breeze to eat out there. I'm mostly Scottish, Irish, and English with just a hint of Native American. I don't wonder for a second why I'm gluten intolerant! lol

[maile]

OMG rotfl!!! I bet you're right. But it doesn't explain the bagpipes.

sure it does, the sound of the pipes is caused by a forceful expulsion of wind through a small opening

*sorry, couldn't resist*