Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD)

[pele]

In response to the person who wanted something fatty to eat, we've been using the "no sugar added" bacon and haven't had any problems.

You can't get much more yummy than a bacon cheeseburger!! (on almond buns of course)

Kay

Hi Kay

I don't think I've ever seen no-sugar bacon. Is there a name brand? Is it chemical-free? I picked up some coconut oil and it has helped. It is saturated fat.

[pele]

Any suggestions about figuring this out? Or is it just a matter of waiting for some months? I am more than one month in the diet.

I am also wondering how long it takes for the diet to work. Why should it take a year or two? Seems like a month would kill off any bad bugs in the gut. Anyone have any input on this?

I have noticed that my guts are grumblier since the onset of summer fruit season. I can't stay away from berries, mangoes, peaches, plums. I should probably be eating steamed carrots for breakfast, but I'm not.

[mftnchn]

It could be the honey or the blueberries or both, it's hard to tell unless you keep a journal and only add one ingredient at a time.

I would try the ripe bananas instead of the blueberries and see if that makes a difference.

If that's not it, I might try some saccarhine to sweeten the smoothie instead of honey and see if THAT makes a difference.

That's why the journal is very important. And yes, some people experience "die off" of the bad bacteria around 30 days, 3 months and 6 months.

Let me know how it goes.

Kay

Well after next week there won't be any blueberries for me when I leave the USA again for 6 months. No blueberries where I live. No bananas for me either, I'm allergic. I'll be able to get some fresh peaches, and then apples.

I'll keep the saccarhine in mind, I really dislike it but will try if need be.

I'll keep the journal in mind too after I relocate. I kept one for months after going gluten-free.

Also I may try going back to intro (no cottage cheese, can't get it where I am going), and only tiny amounts of honey, fruit, and yogurt. Then trace what happens when I increase them.

LShetler, you might check the www.pecanbread.com website for options in terms of the yogurt, it can be made with nut milk too, or other food.

h

[mftnchn]

I am also wondering how long it takes for the diet to work. Why should it take a year or two? Seems like a month would kill off any bad bugs in the gut. Anyone have any input on this?

I have noticed that my guts are grumblier since the onset of summer fruit season. I can't stay away from berries, mangoes, peaches, plums. I should probably be eating steamed carrots for breakfast, but I'm not.

My guess on the time is that it is similar to going gluten-free, where the villi has to heal and restore. That takes 1-2 years, probably no different with this. I have a high risk genotype that is associated with slow healing. I got better on gluten-free but apparently it wasn't enough.

Bugs and parasites can be extremely persistent.

I am not eating any other raw fruit, only a little applesauce. But I felt I could add some blueberries as it is very short term anyway.

My bloating occurs more in the evening it seems like.

[pele]

I'm no expert, but Elaine is very specific in her book that you have to follow it to the letter (at least in the beginning)

Not sure if that helps.

Kay

Kay, I am going to pick on you. Please don't take it personally. It is not my intention to offend anyone! We're all here together trying to get well.

I have issues with BTVC and SCD, even though I am on the dang diet and have been since early April, so allow me to rant a bit.

IMO, Elaine's diet was in part based on conjecture, not science. I have this image in my brain of knidly old Dr. Haas, 50 years ago, in a cardigan sweater with a pipe and a glass of whiskey sitting in his favorite armchair in his den trying to decide what us feeble-minded little ladies or our sick children should or should not eat.

Take a close look at the legal/ illegal list.

Gin, bourbon, corn oil, blue cheese (contains gluten), rutabaga, and aspartame are all legal.

Mung bean sprouts, kohlrabi, parsnips, unsweetened chocolate and organic tamari illegal??

Does anyone besides me detect a bit of inconsistency here? Parsnips are illegal because some children on the diet got upset stomaches from them? Do these kids do well on scotch whiskey? Kohlrabi, a member of the cabbage family that grows above ground is illegal because Elaine thought they looked like turnips, which are closely related to legal rutabaga? How about the theory that chocolate is like cocaine--a quaint idea left over from the 1950s.

I get annoyed when I read that canned tomatoes "may" contain undeclared starch, or frozen orange juice may contain sugar. What, processors can't illegally add sugar to unfrozen orange juice? Where is the evidence that a can of organic tomatoes with only tomatoes and salt on the ingredients list contains forbidden starch, but canned tomato juice does not?

And somebody please show me the scientific evidence to support the 24 hour yogurt theory.

I'm on the diet because it feels right, but I am not going to lose sleep worrying about following it to the letter. I do, however, recognize that some people may need to follow it religiously in order to stay focused and disciplined.

And I appreciate all of the people posting to this thread. It helps me keep going, and I am learning a lot from everyone's comments.

[ShayFL]

Pele

I am like you. I am on the diet, but I DO NOT follow it to the letter. I eat sweet potatoes and a tad of amaranth flour once a week. I do enjoy Stevia in a few things. I believe the diet has helped me, but it isnt necessary for everyone to be anal about it. I just simply do not believe in "all or nothing" with diets. Even gluten free. While everyone who needs to should strive to be 100% gluten free (I do), it doesnt mean that if you accidentally get a crumb of wheat that all of your efforts are for naught. Or that you should constantly worry and obsess about everything you put into your mouth. This type of thinking just makes you crazy and depressed.

I believe living in a state of constant worry and fear cause more health problems than gluten, grains, saturated fat, cigarettes, etc. IMO

So if anyone is interested in the SCD diet, give it a try. Do your best. If you want a few parsnips or a squirt of tamari now and again....it's o.k.

[gfmolly]

Hi Kay

I don't think I've ever seen no-sugar bacon. Is there a name brand? Is it chemical-free? I picked up some coconut oil and it has helped. It is saturated fat.

[gfmolly]

Hi Kay

I don't think I've ever seen no-sugar bacon. Is there a name brand? Is it chemical-free? I picked up some coconut oil and it has helped. It is saturated fat.

[/quote

Patrick Cudahy has come out with a no sugar added bacon. It is really good, and legal on the SCD diet.

Molly

[mftnchn]

I think some good points are being made here. I'd like to find a source that evaluates vegetables in terms of the type of starch in them. I think the principle in the BTVC about the inability to break down complex bonds in carbs makes sense, at least with my own testing. (Stool tests that show this is going through undigested). But like some of you, I have questions about why certain things are included or not included and would like to see more information.

Meanwhile I am following this quite strictly to give it a good try and also because I know I can't handle sugars and starches well.

I'm going to ask my doctor on Monday who put me on this. He uses the diet a lot with his practice. I'll post what I learn.

[pele]

Pele

I am like you. I am on the diet, but I DO NOT follow it to the letter. I eat sweet potatoes and a tad of amaranth flour once a week. I do enjoy Stevia in a few things. I believe the diet has helped me, but it isnt necessary for everyone to be anal about it.

Thank you Shay!

What is NEEM?

[redwriter1]

The bacon brand I found that was NO SUGAR ADDED was at Publix, however, you'll be surprised if you read all the labels, you can find bacon that has no sugar in it.

As for other restrictions, keep in mind that Elaine formulated this diet from Dr. Haas who formulated it in the 1950's.

He died a year later, so there may be many things that apply to 1950 that don't apply to today and vice versa.

On Day 32, my 18year son's diet is bascially this.

Breakfast

choices of:

Eggs, bacon, cheese omlete, bacon/egg/cheese mcmuffin(using SCD bun recipe).

lunch

Cheeseburger on SCD sandwich bread

Chicken breast with swiss cheese and shreaded legal ham (this is called Malibu Chicken) yummy

Snack

Peanut butter and homemade jelly on SCD sandwich bread

Peanut butter brownies

Yogurt made with 1/2 & 1/2 sweetened with saccharine & vanilla.

Dinner

same as lunch and sometimes broiled fish or Salmon

frozen peas

heck even I could do this diet eating this much good food although I do like veggies more than he does.

Now if I can just get him to eat some pot roast my life would be really easy! hahah

Kay

Mike's Mom UC since May 2008, SCD day 32

He starts college on Monday!

[ShayFL]

Neem is an herb from India. If you Google it, you can learn a lot about it.

[mftnchn]

Shay I am interested in the 3 day cycle or so you are having. I see that with BM amounts. I have a really good amount and go several times one day and then back to none or almost none for a few. Diet is pretty stable so it is hard to explain.

I think I am still getting rid of parasites even though I don't see much; The Enula I am on for babesia infection also works on other parasites, and with the removal of the carbs that were getting through my intestines without getting digested, I think some of these unwelcome visitors are finding the environment not so friendly any more.

I am feeling better on the diet but am still having symptoms of pain that started when I started the Enula 2 weeks or so before starting SCD.

I'm in a transition time moving back overseas (I've just been in the USA for a couple of months doing medical things), and when I get back I'm going to try eliminating dairy again due to the bloating I'm getting from the yogurt smoothies. I'll try without then add one thing at a time to see what is doing the bloating.

[pele]

As for other restrictions, keep in mind that Elaine formulated this diet from Dr. Haas who formulated it in the 1950's.

He died a year later, so there may be many things that apply to 1950 that don't apply to today and vice versa.

I often wonder how much of Elaine's worrying about hidden starches and sugars apply to decades old manufacturing practices and have nothing to do with what we should be worrying about today. It would be nice if someone would analyze all of these things for us.

Kay, is your son feeling better on the diet? Will he start adding fruits and more veggies? Is he losing weight? How many eggs does a growing young man eat for breakfast?

[redwriter1]

I have to say, it reminds me of the story my Mother told me along time ago about asking her Mom, why she always cut the end off the ham before she put it in the oven. Her Mother said, "I don't know, it's just the way my mother taught me". etc etc and on down the line, til someone figured out , the reason they cut the end off the ham is because great great grandmother didn't have an oven big enough for the ham. hahahhahaha

Now we just need to find another biochemist to do the analysis for us. (sigh)

Mike Jr. is doing great. He's never been a big fruit fan, but he eats my homemade applesauce everyday as well as banana smoothies. Same goes for vegies, but he's done well on the frozen peas and string beans. He is not losing weight or gaining, he's at a good weight right now (considering he lost 30 lbs in 3 weeks when this all first started!)

He eats lots of natural peanut butter on the almond bread I make him, peanut butter brownies, yogurt, malibu chicken, bacon cheeseburgers......... he's doing ok!! He started college today. It's all good! (thanks for asking)

Kay

I often wonder how much of Elaine's worrying about hidden starches and sugars apply to decades old manufacturing practices and have nothing to do with what we should be worrying about today. It would be nice if someone would analyze all of these things for us.

Kay, is your son feeling better on the diet? Will he start adding fruits and more veggies? Is he losing weight? How many eggs does a growing young man eat for breakfast?

[mftnchn]

My doctor today said that he thought at least 2 months of being really strict is important, then it is less of an issue to encounter small amounts of things like inulin. My overall impression was that I should stick to it closely.

He did say it was fine to use the yogurt I make as a culture. He said the organisms can mutate but once the quality of the yogurt goes down, use a fresh culture. He said he recommends just acidophilus as culture. He suggested Kirkman, who make a probiotic that is just acidophilus and is SCD safe. He mentioned several things that should not be in the yogurt culture.

I am fine with those of you who choose to not be strict. Just wanted to pass on what I was told when I asked.

[ShayFL]

I think strictness might be dictated by symptoms. If you have IBS, then it behooves you to be very strict. I dont. I just thought the diet made some sense to me, so I am trying it with a few modifications.

ONe thing I have noticed is stable blood sugar.

[gfmolly]

My doctor today said that he thought at least 2 months of being really strict is important, then it is less of an issue to encounter small amounts of things like inulin. My overall impression was that I should stick to it closely.

He did say it was fine to use the yogurt I make as a culture. He said the organisms can mutate but once the quality of the yogurt goes down, use a fresh culture. He said he recommends just acidophilus as culture. He suggested Kirkman, who make a probiotic that is just acidophilus and is SCD safe. He mentioned several things that should not be in the yogurt culture.

I am fine with those of you who choose to not be strict. Just wanted to pass on what I was told when I asked.

I saw tremendously great results with only two months on the diet. I had gone a year gluten and dairy free, and after doing SCD for two months I have been able to add small amounts of SCD dairy into my diet. That has been a really yummy thing for me! Also, when I do feel glutened or a little sick, I go back to the SCD diet and have a couple of safe days. It really helps my system.

Just my two cents!

Molly

[pele]

My doctor today said that he thought at least 2 months of being really strict is important, then it is less of an issue to encounter small amounts of things like inulin. My overall impression was that I should stick to it closely.

He did say it was fine to use the yogurt I make as a culture. He said the organisms can mutate but once the quality of the yogurt goes down, use a fresh culture. He said he recommends just acidophilus as culture. He suggested Kirkman, who make a probiotic that is just acidophilus and is SCD safe. He mentioned several things that should not be in the yogurt culture.

I am fine with those of you who choose to not be strict. Just wanted to pass on what I was told when I asked.

I have a feeling your doctor has a lot of experience putting people on strict diets, so I appreciate hearing what he has to say. I wonder what he would advise for probiotics for someone who is casein intolerant.

[mftnchn]

I have a feeling your doctor has a lot of experience putting people on strict diets, so I appreciate hearing what he has to say. I wonder what he would advise for probiotics for someone who is casein intolerant.

Yes he does. Adults as well as kids; he now treats a lot of autistic children. He also has a background in biochemistry (undergrad). I find that he is pretty flexible when he thinks we can be. He told me he typically doesn't like "protocols" because one has to adjust it for everyone.

He told me to make the yogurt with other things like vegetables, nut milk, etc. You can see some info on that on www.pecanweb.com Use your probiotic for a starter. Even if the probiotic has some milk in it, use your newly made yogurt as starter several times and each time the amount of casein will decrease. He said after the yogurt quality starts to decrease, you have to start again with a probiotic. Also he said use just lactobacillus acidophilus for your culture.

My sense is the reason for the strictness is pretty much what is discussed in the book--at least for me. I am unable to break down carbs (confirmed by two lab tests 3 months apart) even while taking specific carb enzymes. Its to try to give my gut a chance to heal. His comment this week was that it is having a cleansing effect on my intestine (passing worms and tissue pieces). BTW I am also taking Enula which is an anti-parasitic, but didn't see any evidence of the cleansing until after I started SCD.

He mentioned that the inulin, chicory, and FOS in probiotics are to be avoided, at LEAST initially. His comment was they are hard to digest and are in most probiotics.

[mftnchn]

Shay, I agree to some degree about symptoms, when these are clear-cut. Sounds like you have made a great decision for yourself that is working.

The thing is, I have very little abdominal symptoms at all, and what I do have is quite mild. I'm probably one of the silent celiacs. I have more systemic symptoms like fatigue, brain fog and joint/muscle pain. I also have lyme disease so it is hard to tell what causes what.

I went on the diet based on testing, and it is helping in some ways which is great. I still have symptoms though, so we are still trying to sort out what is from what.

[AliB]

Take a close look at the legal/ illegal list.

Gin, bourbon, corn oil, blue cheese (contains gluten), rutabaga, and aspartame are all legal.

Mung bean sprouts, kohlrabi, parsnips, unsweetened chocolate and organic tamari illegal??

Does anyone besides me detect a bit of inconsistency here? Parsnips are illegal because some children on the diet got upset stomaches from them? Do these kids do well on scotch whiskey? Kohlrabi, a member of the cabbage family that grows above ground is illegal because Elaine thought they looked like turnips, which are closely related to legal rutabaga? How about the theory that chocolate is like cocaine--a quaint idea left over from the 1950s.

I get annoyed when I read that canned tomatoes "may" contain undeclared starch, or frozen orange juice may contain sugar. What, processors can't illegally add sugar to unfrozen orange juice? Where is the evidence that a can of organic tomatoes with only tomatoes and salt on the ingredients list contains forbidden starch, but canned tomato juice does not?

And somebody please show me the scientific evidence to support the 24 hour yogurt theory.

I'm on the diet because it feels right, but I am not going to lose sleep worrying about following it to the letter. I do, however, recognize that some people may need to follow it religiously in order to stay focused and disciplined.

And I appreciate all of the people posting to this thread. It helps me keep going, and I am learning a lot from everyone's comments.

I understand where you are coming from, but I do think that some of Elaine's points are justified. I think she tends to err on the side of caution at times like with the canned tomatoes. Most probably don't contain anything they shouldn't, but it comes down to the processed thing - you know what is in a fresh tomato, you can't guarantee what is in a tin of them! (And not everyone may be astute enough to figure it out for themselves, if you know what I mean!)

Fresh short sprouted mung beans are ok but once they have grown into those long sprouts that are used in stir-fries, they can cause problems. I don't cope with them very well. I did read somewhere why not to use them but I can't find it! The site does say that Aspartame is illegal although no more than one drink or food with it is allowed per week once healed.

Tamari is made from soy and her site does state why it, and other soy products should be avoided. Chocolate can be a problem for some - I am not coping with it very well at all. I have been eating the very bitter dairy-free choc but am still getting problems. I suspect it is yet another food that is feeding rogue bacteria somewhere in my body. I love it, but it doesn't love me. It is also pretty high in copper - it is possible that may end up encouraging the imbalance - I did read that certain bacteria thrive in a higher copper environment.

The 24 hour yogurt culture is more about logic that science. The point of culturing it for that length of time is that a) unlike the short culturing of the commercial yogurt (6 - 8 hours) most, if not all of the lactose is digested by the bacteria, making the yogurt much more tolerable for those with lactose intolerance and the quantity of the bacteria will be much higher in the long culturing than in the short stint that the commercial yogurts are given, making it far more beneficial for us.

Hope this helps.

[AliB]

Shay, I agree to some degree about symptoms, when these are clear-cut. Sounds like you have made a great decision for yourself that is working.

The thing is, I have very little abdominal symptoms at all, and what I do have is quite mild. I'm probably one of the silent celiacs. I have more systemic symptoms like fatigue, brain fog and joint/muscle pain. I also have lyme disease so it is hard to tell what causes what.

I went on the diet based on testing, and it is helping in some ways which is great. I still have symptoms though, so we are still trying to sort out what is from what.

My husband has Fibromyalgia, symptoms of which are very similar to yours. He decided to join me on gluten-free (hates being left out, bless him!). He is so much better. He is like a different person in many ways.

He no longer suffers with the awful brain-fog - the only time he gets it is if he has been 'glutened', his mobility is much better and the pain is much less, he no longer has to have the days in bed that he needed and keeps going a lot longer. His memory and concentration have much improved. I was telling him some news the other day and he actually knew who I was talking about! (those of you who have suffered with the dreaded brain-fog will know exactly why that is so amazing). He knows where he is going when we are out in the car - he is much more focused (and I am much less stressed!).

He still gets some digestive problems but I haven't yet managed to get him to drop dairy, or join me on the SCD (maybe that will come later), but I can't help thinking, if his improvement is that much better without gluten, how much better would it be on SCD!

[AliB]

My doctor today said that he thought at least 2 months of being really strict is important, then it is less of an issue to encounter small amounts of things like inulin. My overall impression was that I should stick to it closely.

He did say it was fine to use the yogurt I make as a culture. He said the organisms can mutate but once the quality of the yogurt goes down, use a fresh culture. He said he recommends just acidophilus as culture. He suggested Kirkman, who make a probiotic that is just acidophilus and is SCD safe. He mentioned several things that should not be in the yogurt culture.

I am fine with those of you who choose to not be strict. Just wanted to pass on what I was told when I asked.

What is it your doctor reckoned should NOT be in the culture?

[mftnchn]

What is it your doctor reckoned should NOT be in the culture?

He said no chicory, FOS, or inulin at least initially; his comment was they are very hard to digest.

Ali, I agree that SCD might help your husband. What I have learned on this forum and especially on the OMG thread is that gluten sensitivity can come alongside a number of problems that hit the gut. So there could be something else going on that is stressing the gut and the gluten sensitivity is secondary.

So my point is I guess that it doesn't hurt to keep searching for solutions--if he wants to.