Autoimmunity Diseases Gluten Connection

[Claire]

The following is a very significant statement. Do 'digest' the implications - Claire

AUTOIMMUNITY DISEASES GLUTEN CONNECTION

As for the connection between autoimmunity and cereal grains, it is clear and compelling. The theoretical perspective of molecular mimicry suggests that gliadin-derived peptides, may activate the immune system against collagenous tissues, and since intestinal permeability (not celiac disease) is all that is required to allow the passage of these peptides into the bloodstream, a significant number of many types of autoimmune diseases seem likely to benefit from a gluten-free diet (11 ).

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[trents]

This lecture seems to contradict itself at points in that it advocates limiting your animal protein intake and yet it also exalts the hunter-gather lifestyle. Good grief, people seem to forget that the average lifespan of "hunter-gatherers" was quite limited compared to ours today. They were often killed in war or in the process of hunting and often died if infectious diseases. The reason their remains didn't demonstrate some of our civilized diseases is that they didn't usually live long enough to develop them. Quite frankly, I wouldn't trade places with them.

[MySuicidalTurtle]

Well, you are very wrong about hunter-gatherer bands. They did not have wars and weren't even aggressive. They also did not regularly die in the process of hunting (only 15% of their food came from hunting). Sure, they did have shorter lives than now (around mid-forties) but they were much healthier than we are today. They were happier, less stressed, worked much less, and had good social interactions. We could learn a lot from them and their wide diets and egalitarian ways. I can't imagine eating the variety of plant species they did, but I'd like to try! Plus, as Celiacs we wouldn't have been as sick then compared to how we are now thanks to agricultural developments.

[trents]

Come now, they didn't have wars with other tribes? Are you forgetting that native Americans used to attack each other's villages? I just don't buy that noble savage thing. We have romanticized primitive cultures. Though I do agree with you there are some things we can learn from them. At least they got more exercise than we do. I'm convinced its not so much what we eat that causes so many of our health issues (gluten excepted, of course, for Celiacs) but that we eat too much of everything as Americans and Westerners.

[ravenwoodglass]

Come now, they didn't have wars with other tribes? Are you forgetting that native Americans used to attack each other's villages? I just don't buy that noble savage thing. We have romanticized primitive cultures. Though I do agree with you there are some things we can learn from them. At least they got more exercise than we do. I'm convinced its not so much what we eat that causes so many of our health issues (gluten excepted, of course, for Celiacs) but that we eat too much of everything as Americans and Westerners.

If you do any study of the still present primitive tribes that exist in areas like the Amazon you will find that although some 'war like' behaviors exist, they are human after all, in a whole these tend to be very healthy individuals with strong social and support structures. We should never generalize about any society. On an off note I follow a pretty much paleo diet and do quite well when I stick to it. Ahhh if only candy didn't becon so often.

[elye]

This discussion exactly addresses the crux I'm so often pondering as I make my way through this difficult eating plan (I'm also type one diabetic). I often think of how much healthier we in developed countries would be if we simply ate like cavemen...hunter-gatherers...meat, plants, nuts and seeds. We are in a place in our history, however, where it is next to impossible to do this. We've all realized, I'm sure, how difficult it is to stay completely away from processed foods. As celiacs we've had to limit those food choices, but the gluten-free options are still available to us. I've decided that one day next week I'm going to challenge my family (actually, it will be just me, as I do all the food prep around here) to eat like cavemen for 24 hours...or maybe 48. This will be really tough, as I have two young, snacking kids. How crazy, that something so seemingly second-nature, so basic as eating un-altered food sources, is so difficult! Such is the have-no-time, give-it-to-me-yesterday culture we are now in. So, let's get a bunch of us doing this together, as I'd love to hear how others do. If there are those who manage to eat this way already, I'd love to hear how you do it!

[penguin]

If you do any study of the still present primitive tribes that exist in areas like the Amazon you will find that although some 'war like' behaviors exist, they are human after all, in a whole these tend to be very healthy individuals with strong social and support structures. We should never generalize about any society. On an off note I follow a pretty much paleo diet and do quite well when I stick to it. Ahhh if only candy didn't becon so often.

I agree with the romanticizing primitive culture. Aside from the "war like behavior", there weren't very many! It's easy to be peaceful when other tribes are few and far between.

[trents]

Paleo diet? That's a new term to me. There is actually a name for it, huh? It puts a scientific-sounding spin on the idea, I guess. In my generation we thought of it as the hippie or flower children diet.

I was talking to a guy from the Netherlands a year and a half ago or so. He was 6'6" tall. He commented to me that the Dutch are now the tallest nation, men averaging 6'1" or 6'2" or something. I asked him to what he attributed that. His reply was that the Dutch consume a lot of dairy products. Ah, yes, good ol' protein and calcium from nonvegetable sources.

MySuicidalTurtle, how do they know only 15% of primitive people's diet came (past tense) from hunting? Who was there to observe it? That's based on an assumption that that it was the same for them as it is for the primitive tribes we can now still observe. That 15% figure certainly would not apply to primitive native Americans living in the plains areas of the continent.

[Nancym]

The principle behind the Paleo diet is that you don't eat anything that hasn't been eaten for the last 10,000 years. So that eliminates grains, legumes, plants in the nightshade family (potatos, tomatos, eggplant) and dairy products. Its very similar to the SCD diet, if you were to remove the few dairy products she allows.

I'm doing SCD. Its been dandy for helping with a lot of my issues (bowels and joints mostly).

It took a bit of adjustment but I have always liked meat and veggies and a little fruit. So I cook creatively and really enjoy the diet.

[ravenwoodglass]

how do they know only 15% of primitive people's diet came (past tense) from hunting? Who was there to observe it? That's based on an assumption that that it was the same for them as it is for the primitive tribes we can now still observe. That 15% figure certainly would not apply to primitive native Americans living in the plains areas of the continent.

In many cases they would know this from archeological evidence. Even primitive cultures made 'garbage' and in many cultures food was included in their burial practices. A pretty good estimation could be created by studying buried remains, especially in areas where a cataclysimic (SP) event occured like a landslide. It is also possible in some instances to anyalse stomach contents in particular in individuals who were frozen at death.

I was talking to a guy from the Netherlands a year and a half ago or so. He was 6'6" tall. He commented to me that the Dutch are now the tallest nation, men averaging 6'1" or 6'2" or something. I asked him to what he attributed that. His reply was that the Dutch consume a lot of dairy products. Ah, yes, good ol' protein and calcium from nonvegetable sources.

I am not positive but I think they may also routinely test for gluten intolerance in the Netherlands. Maybe your friend would know about this. In some countries it is part of routine childhood testing.

[Claire]

Wow - all this is hardly the reaction I expected - or hoped for. I didn't post this to generate this very interesting discussion of the Paleolithic diet. I excerpted a paragraph which is very relevant for those with celiac - as well as for those without celiac but with serious food intolerances and other autoimmune diseases. The paragraph just happened to be from a paleolithic website. It seems you all reacted to the concept of paleo rather than to the little gem of truth contained in the paragraph.

You probably recognized that the presenter of this material is the co-author of Dangerous Grains.

I consider the paleo issue an aside rather than the topic - which is the implications of gluten for celiacs and non-celiacs alike.

Whatever - you certainly have an interesting discussion going. Don't forget the paragraph! Claire

[MySuicidalTurtle]

Native Americans were not hunter-gathering bands! The world supported 3-4 million hunter-gatherers up until 10,000 years ago when agriculture started. They did not have wars and even came together to hunt large herds if the occasion came about. There have not been any true hunting and gathering bands for a long time. Outside contact from any agricultural and developped society changed their diet, their lifestyles, their agrression, and many other things. I am not pulling these facts out of the air but in my current studies this is what the books, my professors, and lecturers have been saying. I do not think we should go back but only that we could learn a lot about how they ate. We are so limited in what we eat today and I think it really is bad that we are. Agriculture brought only a handful of species to became staples in the human diet and re-expanding that could be good.

[elye]

Gee, I'M starting to think that we should maybe go back...

[trents]

So now we have the SCD diet on the table. What's that?

Can we eat anything?

Seems to me there is this unspoken philosophy out there that says if we just find the right diet and lifestyle we will be perfectly healthy and live forever.

Now, don't misuderstand me. I certainly believe we have a responsibility to give reasonable attention to our health but regardless of what nutritional plan one adopts there will be health problems and eventual decline and death.

Creation is at war with us and with itself at the present time. As the Apostle Paul says in Romans 8:20:

"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjectied it, in hope that creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay . . ." (NIV).

[munchkinette]

I really suggest reading Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. His thesis is that there are a number of environmental factors , both naturally occurring and influenced by humans, which contributed to the dominance of western culture over other cultures. One of those is food production (which allowed settlements to develop into cities, etc.) He goes into a lot of different cultures and their reasons for transitioning from hunter-gatherer to agricultural societies at different times.

And it's true that you can't generalize about those older cultures. Pre-modern societies ranged from pacifist vegetarian to warlike cannibals.

[Cape]

The principle behind the Paleo diet is that you don't eat anything that hasn't been eaten for the last 10,000 years. So that eliminates grains, legumes, plants in the nightshade family (potatos, tomatos, eggplant) and dairy products. Its very similar to the SCD diet, if you were to remove the few dairy products she allows.

I'm doing SCD. Its been dandy for helping with a lot of my issues (bowels and joints mostly).

It took a bit of adjustment but I have always liked meat and veggies and a little fruit. So I cook creatively and really enjoy the diet.

Wow. I had not heard of the Paleo Diet before today. I googled it and after reading about it, I think that I will need to do further reading. I had been doing so much better since being gluten free, but over the last couple of months have been having more joint pain. I have eliminated the night shades, dairy, and legumes without even knowing that I am eating a Paleo diet. Now I see that the problems I might be having are with salt. I was trying to figure out what my problem was. I made squash and onions and a ground turkey leg burger. I did eat the squash 2 days in a row. I was thinking that might be the problem, but I, for the life of me, could not figure out how those foods would cause pain. BUT I salted them! I was beginning to think it might be the ground pepper.

Thank you for adding your message.

Bye, Cape

[Nancym]

My joint pain has gotten a lot better since I've been on my modified SCD (no dairy). But... as with joint pain (I might have Lupus) it comes and goes. So perhaps I'm just in a relatively pain free time. I intend to try various foods again, after my intestines have had awhile to heal up, but for now I keep my diet pretty limited. Good thing I really love veggies and meat and fruit and I am, if I say so myself, a pretty darned good cook!

By eating a very simple limited diet I discovered something shocking. Chocolate gives me a tummy ache, gas and possibly D if I eat enough of it. But not cocoa. Anyway, if you're eating a lot of stuff that could do that, it is hard to find the culprit!

[elisabet]

If you do any study of the still present primitive tribes that exist in areas like the Amazon you will find that although some 'war like' behaviors exist, they are human after all, in a whole these tend to be very healthy individuals with strong social and support structures. We should never generalize about any society. On an off note I follow a pretty much paleo diet and do quite well when I stick to it. Ahhh if only candy didn't becon so often.

Yes ,I do agree with you.g

[Guest Robbin]

I have been doing an elimination diet and have found so many foods that I just can't tolerate and have been avoiding them, yet I still have terrible joint pain. I haven't been gluten-free that long however, and I know it will probably take a good long time to get as well as can be expected after a lifetime of illness. The other issue that should be considered is environmental toxins. Carpeting, bedding, indoor pollutants/chemicals are a whole 'nuther thing the early hunter/gatherer's didn't have to deal with. I feel like a dog chasing its' tail sometimes. Wonder how many centuries it will take for our genes to overcome celiac? Maybe the genetic engineering of grains will produce a "safe" wheat. Interesting subject.

[ravenwoodglass]

Wonder how many centuries it will take for our genes to overcome celiac? Maybe the genetic engineering of grains will produce a "safe" wheat. Interesting subject.

I hope they don't. I think we are the 'lucky' ones, (IMHO I know many will disagree) we have immune systems that are developed enough to let us know we are poisoning our systems. Also I haven't had a single cold since a few months after I went gluten-free, nor any tummy viruses or my usual yearly bronchitis and the first 2 years I worked in the school systems. My genes seem to have produced a real good immune system when its fed properly.

[DonnaD]

I have also been virus free after years of catching anything going. I went to a wedding in Japan 2 years ago and came home pain free, 2lbs lighter and with no jet lag! aneome stomach and sake might not be my idea of wedding food but I did feel well. In Japan there are hardly any overweight people (except 2/3 teenagers we saw near a burger bar in Hiroshima) , even very old people are slim and move well, work into old age and seem healthy. My sister in law is Japanese, they don't drink cows milk, they have soy but not much daily, they don't drink it as 'milk'. The women don't seem to suffer from PMS etc type problems.

I think that the study of non-western/primitave peoples will prove interesting for societies with degenerative illness.

Donna

[Claire]

As interesting as all this is, I still am a loss to understand why the discussion took off in this direction.

It certainly was not the intended subject. I think the intended subject just got lost in this hunter/gatherer discussion. Personally, I think that is unfortunate. Claire

[mommida]

Claire,

The original article you posted is of special interest for me. I was trying to find the time to find an article to give to an aquaintence for her daughter. It has been printed out, and I told her about it, and when I get my act together it will be delivered to her.

Thank you for posting this and the other interesting articles.

Laura

[eleep]

As interesting as all this is, I still am a loss to understand why the discussion took off in this direction.

It certainly was not the intended subject. I think the intended subject just got lost in this hunter/gatherer discussion. Personally, I think that is unfortunate. Claire

Ah! You can never control the way the thread will develop because everyone is bringing their own concerns and questions to the issue at hand -- but I can assure you that the autoimmune issue is what attracted me to the thread and, while I don't have a lot to say on it (because I simply don't know enough), I'm really glad you posted on this article. My father has Type I diabetes, and I've been interested in all these autoimmune links, but I don't know exactly what to do with them. I can say that I've recently realized that my symptoms could easily have been diagnosed as fibromyalgia had I actually brought them up in the right way with the right doctor. I just don't have enough of an intellectual grasp on this yet to be able to put a coherent, useful idea together and contribute to discussion!

Ah! You can never control the way the thread will develop because everyone is bringing their own concerns and questions to the issue at hand -- but I can assure you that the autoimmune issue is what attracted me to the thread and, while I don't have a lot to say on it (because I simply don't know enough), I'm really glad you posted on this article. My father has Type I diabetes, and I've been interested in all these autoimmune links, but I don't know exactly what to do with them. I can say that I've recently realized that my symptoms could easily have been diagnosed as fibromyalgia had I actually brought them up in the right way with the right doctor. I just don't have enough of an intellectual grasp on this yet to be able to put a coherent, useful idea together and contribute to discussion!

Whoops -- I just looked it up and found that, technically, fibromyalgia may not be considered to be an autoimmune condition anymore, so I don't really know what I'm talking about.

I know that all this autoimmune research is really really current, and it's not as well-funded as medical research that's in the service of producing new "products" for "consumption" -- like drugs. Someone directed me to Dr. Andrew Weil's site where he makes the argument for autoimmunity as the primary cause of most chronic and morbid conditions -- and he's very big on the way that diet plays in to this.