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Rachel--24

Omg...i Might Be On To Something

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Could that be part of the reason you got sick when you got back since your body was occupied with fighting off all the intruders?

I really think it could be. With my adrenals in the bad shape they're in and getting all worn out, and on top of that just overloading with everything my body doesn't like...I bet that's exactly what happened.

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Aww I'm sorry Carla :( I think I'm herxing for the first time too. I've been on Artemisian for over a month and never herxed, and I was kind of nervous because I wasn't sure if it was working...but then when I added the catnip that's supposed to finish off the babesia. I upped the dosage just four days ago to two pills and I think i'm herxing for the first time ever today. I'm not sure though...but I feel like my food is going to come right back up everytime I eat, and the feeling lasts for about 2 or 3 hours...which is tough because I havent to eat every two hours. LoL. Anyone have any herxing advice? I sure hope yours doesn't last long Carla. Feel better soon!!!

Thanks. I'm sure this is a herx ... I'm feeling a lot worse today. I had that feeling last night after I ate and I haven't eaten yet today. I also am having a lot of muscle pain like when you have the flu, and some minor joint pain in joints that have bothered me in the past. The fatigue is making it so I can hardly hold my head up. I woke up four times last night from night sweats, which is a big sign of babesia. Adam told me this morning that he had to keep moving over last night (I usually sleep right next to him) because I felt like a furnace.

So, lots of water and detox tea today. I've read that charcoal can help because it absorbs the toxins. You have to take it apart from your supplements or it will absorb them, too. I don't feel good enough to go buy some, plus, I'm always taking supplements ... this one with food, this one not ... I have no idea when I'd take the charcoal!!

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Thanks for the advice. I've had 7 water bottles (17 oz water bottles) so far today and I think I'll be able to fit in one more.

Be sure you're getting enough electrolytes with that water!! You should be getting about 1/4 tsp. salt per quart of water you drink ... either with the water, or on your food ... so it's your total salt intake. Most people have NO PROBLEM getting that tiny bit of salt!! But some of us on a restricted diet don't get enough.

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Okay, I'm off to go research tonsilitis and sore throats, cuz I've still got mine big time. :angry:

I had my tonsils out when I was 5, but I have a friend who has figured out how to drain hers when they get full. Sounds yucky to me, but if I had mine and they were swollen, I'd figure it out!! I guess there's a slit in them and she just pushes the gunk out. I don't know any more that that ... she does not cut anything.

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Thanks. I'm sure this is a herx ... I'm feeling a lot worse today. I had that feeling last night after I ate and I haven't eaten yet today. I also am having a lot of muscle pain like when you have the flu, and some minor joint pain in joints that have bothered me in the past. The fatigue is making it so I can hardly hold my head up. I woke up four times last night from night sweats, which is a big sign of babesia. Adam told me this morning that he had to keep moving over last night (I usually sleep right next to him) because I felt like a furnace.

So, lots of water and detox tea today. I've read that charcoal can help because it absorbs the toxins. You have to take it apart from your supplements or it will absorb them, too. I don't feel good enough to go buy some, plus, I'm always taking supplements ... this one with food, this one not ... I have no idea when I'd take the charcoal!!

Yah, it does sound like herx. And, wow, I understand about the supplements...I'm getting them all confused now, lol. Fortunately the BioSET lady put little stickers on all of them with the maximum amounts she would recommend and the timing, so that's helping a bit.

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I had my tonsils out when I was 5, but I have a friend who has figured out how to drain hers when they get full. Sounds yucky to me, but if I had mine and they were swollen, I'd figure it out!! I guess there's a slit in them and she just pushes the gunk out. I don't know any more that that ... she does not cut anything.

Hum, okay, more research. :P

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Mia,

So good to see you!! Missed you posting. :)

Carla,

I hope this herx runs it's cycle quickly. Have you backed off on the stuff you were taking?

Peace,

You too.

Donna,

I don't know what to think about your throat. :(

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Carla,

I hope this herx runs it's cycle quickly. Have you backed off on the stuff you were taking?

Thanks. No, I'm not backing off ... I'd rather rest, sauna, drink water, etc. and kill more of the bad stuff than back off to feel a little better now.

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Question: Is this bioset that some of you go to, is that a lab or what is it exactly?We have naturopathic doctors here that kind of do some of that testing...do you think that is the same thing? I was planning on making an appointment with one of them but after reading what you all wrote, especially Rachel, I'm going to call tomorrow and get an appointment ASAP. I think you are right Rachel and my husband also said this as well, that doctors are only interested in diseases. If they find one they treat it and if they don't, well they just let you stay sick until you finally get one. :angry: I, for one, am not going to wait around to find out what I get next :angry:

BioSET is a method of electro dermal testing...

Its really hard to explain but the testing seems really accurate and I have yet to hear from anyone saying that it *hasnt* helped them....so I'm trying it out. I was really skeptical at first but now I love going to my appts. :)

This is the lady I see....Anna

http://delicatebalance.biz/joomla/index.ph...5&Itemid=30

Shes lightyears above all of the Dr.'s I've seen. I know she goes to Canada....she was gone for a week or two after Thanksgiving and they told me she was at one of the clinics in Canada.

I see an Integrative Dr.....he's an M.D. but he prefers treating people naturally over using drugs. He's the one who decided I needed to be tested for Lyme at my first appt. with him. My bloodtests ended up not giving a definate answer...one test which came back positive is only 82% specific for Lyme....so there is a chance the test was positive due to something else.

He sent me to Anna for BioSET testing to see if her tests showed Lyme or not. He has alot of respect for her and clearly he trusts the results of the test. Anyway....I tested highly positive for Lyme when she tested me. :(

So thats how I ended up doing the BioSET stuff....because my Dr. sent me just to get the testing. I like her and I trust her so I continue to go to her.....for now.

Since you mentioned the backwoods.....I definately think you should see a Dr. knowledgeable about Lyme and who can test you properly to get it ruled in or out. There is a lyme message board for people in canada and I'm sure someone can recommend a good Dr. in your area.

http://www.canlyme.com/forum/

As far as looking for a naturopath....do a little research first....get some good recommendations. Some of them arent any better than the dr.'s I've seen. They do have better bedside manner and they have a better understanding of chronic illness.....but some are just not equipped with enough knowledge to really get to the root of your problems.

I saw one N.D. who just basically agreed with everything I said....I suspected candida and she agreed. I was paying to see her but basically I was treating myself and probably knew more about candida than she did. It wasnt helpful. :(

You wanna find someone who isnt gonna just say you have something like candida and throw some supplements your way. You want someone who will dig for answers....and if you have candida....*why* do you have it?? Thats a good Dr....one who understands that these things dont just "happen" and there are underlying issues that need to be addressed.

You've already addressed Celiac.....now you want to find out what else is going on?? Do you have Leaky gut....and if so why?? Is it from candida?? Could you have Lyme or some other infection?? Do you have other major food intolerances holding you back?? Stuff like that....ask questions and find a Dr. who is knowledgeable in all aspects of chronic illness. You definately dont want someone who would diagnose Fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome.

Thats my advice on Dr.'s.....I wasted alot of time going to crappy ones who didnt take me serious. :(

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Miamia,

Thanks for the info about castor oil packs. Are they something you put on you?? Or something you have to take orally?? :huh:

I'm pretty sure I'm sensitive to castor oil....like in lipstick and stuff so I wouldnt want to take it like that. Well...I could have the BioSET lady test me for it first.

Unlike Donna, I cant take any supplements. I really wasnt ok with any of the supplements shes tested.....my own and the ones she has there...the stuff she says I'm ok with...its really only for a very small amount. I cant take the regular doses of anything....she tells me how much my body can handle and if I can take any at all its a pretty tiny amount.

So what are castor oil packs??? I hope not a supplement. :P

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Peace - another thing you might try is soaking in a very warm bath with epsom salts. Every time I get a deep tissue massage, the therapist says to go home and soak in a tub with epsom salts as it helps draw out the toxins... In my mind herxing is just a bunch of toxins running amuk.

Yeah....this is good too!! I used to do epsom baths frequently when I was doing the anti-candida stuff. I should start doing it again. Thanks Donna. :)

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Thanks. No, I'm not backing off ... I'd rather rest, sauna, drink water, etc. and kill more of the bad stuff than back off to feel a little better now.

She's a tough cookie. ;)

Congrats on your Herxing. :)

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She's a tough cookie. ;)

Congrats on your Herxing. :)

Yeah, I guess I am. :P This is most definately a herx, I'm feeling waaaayyy worse than I've felt in a long time. A lot of the achy-ness is in my head (along with shoulders, neck and back), which is new for me. I've never been one for headaches.

It's so strange to be happy about feeling bad. Not that I'm happy, but I feel "good" that progress is being made.

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I don't know what to think about your throat. :(

Me either. I've been trying to decide all day whether or not to make an appointment with a doctor, and if so, which one, lol. :lol: Either way I go I won't like it. If I see the HN doctors I'm likely to get more supplements, and I really can't take any more, literally, lol. If I see the ENT I'll probably get more antibiotics (which while I was on them, my throat didn't hurt), and unless I have an active infection, I really don't want to take. Ah, fortunately it's been kind of busy today, so not much time to think one way or another. :P

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Yeah, I guess I am. :P This is most definately a herx, I'm feeling waaaayyy worse than I've felt in a long time. A lot of the achy-ness is in my head (along with shoulders, neck and back), which is new for me. I've never been one for headaches.

It's so strange to be happy about feeling bad. Not that I'm happy, but I feel "good" that progress is being made.

I think I understand completely about being happy about feeling bad, lol. You are amazing to me!

In fact, I'm in awe daily with the ladies and gents on this thread, lol.

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Miamia,

Thanks for the info about castor oil packs. Are they something you put on you?? Or something you have to take orally?? :huh:

I'm pretty sure I'm sensitive to castor oil....like in lipstick and stuff so I wouldnt want to take it like that. Well...I could have the BioSET lady test me for it first.

Unlike Donna, I cant take any supplements. I really wasnt ok with any of the supplements shes tested.....my own and the ones she has there...the stuff she says I'm ok with...its really only for a very small amount. I cant take the regular doses of anything....she tells me how much my body can handle and if I can take any at all its a pretty tiny amount.

So what are castor oil packs??? I hope not a supplement. :P

NO not a supplement- you can buy them i think prepared or else there really easy you get some sort of felt or other material and soak it with castor oil and basically leave it on your stomach. These are vague instructions but thats the gist of it. C'mon rachel I know you too well I am not gonna suggest anything you have to take orally!!

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I think I understand completely about being happy about feeling bad, lol. You are amazing to me!

In fact, I'm in awe daily with the ladies and gents on this thread, lol.

Thanks. :wub: I think we can say that we are persistent!! :) Though, I bet our doctors and families/friends have another word for it. :blink::lol:

Adam bought me a pair of those satin eye covers for sleeping for Christmas! I'm so sensitive to light, that I find it hard to nap ... at night, even the cordless phone being plugged in will keep me awake :blink: . He says that with the eye covers I look as high maintenance as I am! :P Now all I need are a pair of earplugs like these ... http://www.classicsavers.com/wallpaper/AudreyBPreview.jpg

Anyway, I had a nice long nap!

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Thanks for the links to bioSET and to the CanLyme site. I actually visited the CanLyme site last night after posting here and I have at least 30 of the symptoms. I immediately printed off the list and drew up a letter to my doctor to go along with it that I'm going to mail in a few moments here, when I go pick up my kids from school. I don't know if Lyme is the answer but if it is, at least I'll be happy to have an answer. I also visited the IGeniX site last night too, so I told my doctor in my letter that I am aware that Lyme disease is almost impossible to get a proper diagnosis of if left to the regular lab results so he won't be able to brush aside Lyme by rehashing any labs he may have already ordered on me in that regard. I'm sure he wouldn't (he's as frusterated as I am at this point) and another plus that maybe on my side regarding him is that he's not a native of North America, so he may be open to other suggestions because he didn't learn those biases where he went to school??!! I don't know, we'll see.

Mia, thanks for the info about the antacids. I had no clue about that. I actually hate taking ANY sort of pill for ANY reason. I never EVER even take aspirin, Tylenol or Motrin. I hate being prescribed this that and the next thing for what the doctors think or thought I have. I can't understand that mentality...give a pill and "see" if it works, not FIND OUT WHAT'S REALLY WRONG and treat it with the PROPER medication if necessary!!!

Rachel, I will DEFINITELY find a ND that comes with a good recommendation. I realize that there are "quacks" in all professions and just 'cause a guy says he's a plumber, doesn't mean he'll be able to fix your leaky toilet ;) So I will do my due dilligence and hopefully will come up with the right guy in the first place. In the meantime, do you think you can find out where in Canada this bioSET lady travels? I will also go back on the CanLyme board and see if I can find a local Dr. that is knowledgeable when it comes to Lyme (if I don't get results with my own that is, I gotta give him a chance at least).

Okay, gotta go get the kids.

THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE!!! :lol:

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In the meantime, do you think you can find out where in Canada this bioSET lady travels? I will also go back on the CanLyme board and see if I can find a local Dr. that is knowledgeable when it comes to Lyme (if I don't get results with my own that is, I gotta give him a chance at least).

Lauralee,

I'll ask my Bioset lady next time I see her...I have appts. twice a week but I dont always see her.....there are two other practitioners there that help her.....so I dont always have my appts. with her.....unfortunately. :(

I'll ask next time she does my treatment. :)

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What would you like served for your gourmet dinner served in Rachelville ;)

Holy Cow...its not really very "gourmet" but all I really want is a sandwich. :D

Even with gluten-free bread it would be the greatest sandwich I ever had...HECK.....even with EnerG bread it would probably be the best sandwhich ever!! Ok....maybe thats a stretch. <_<

I just want alot of mayo, turkey, roast beef, avocado, CHEESE, pickles....and oh yeah... lots of mayo. :D

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I just want alot of mayo, turkey, roast beef, avocado, CHEESE, pickles....and oh yeah... lots of mayo. :D

Why do I think you like cheese and mayo? :P

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I saw my Dr. tonight. I brought him my test results from the bloodwork Anna ordered.

He was familiar with the lab and the test...he said it was basically a test for some of the things likely to cause leaky gut.

So yeah....I was positive for the yeast (extremely), dietary protein and bacteria.

He said clearly the yeast is a big issue and my results are 5 to 6 times what is considered normal.

He's not happy with my progress so far....he said we're getting nowhere. :(

He says he wants me working with Anna but not necessarily on the foods and other stuff....he wants the focus to be on my pathways and detoxification. He said clearing foods isnt gonna do any good if my toxicity level is still high. He said the toxic waste from the candida alone is enough to overwhelm my liver.

He said high toxicity isnt gonna heal a leaky gut and as long as there is leaky gut those foods will get re-sensitized quickly. Yeah....that was my feeling as well. <_< If the gut is still leaky and the issues causing it havent been addressed wont the same problems come right back?? He said they would.....the more toxic the body is and the more overwhelmed the liver is.....the more allergic you become.

He said treating candida and keeping it at bay for now will give the treatments a better chance of holding. He said whatever treatments I get done while I'm in my current state....dont really have a strong chance of holding....my body is too toxic and my gut is too leaky. He said its like chasing your own tail.

I asked him if yeast could have become an issue all on its own....without Lyme or mercury being involved. I *did* have chronic stress, unhealthy diet, antibiotics, heck I drank milk everyday of my life....how much antibiotics did I really put into my body?? :blink:

He said yeah...chronic stress on the body from any source can cause yeast overgrowth.....he said there is always an underlying cause though. People dont generally develop yeast overgrowth to this extent without an underlying cause....healthy people dont get candida overgrowth.

This was always my belief....its what I used to preach on the candida boards. Many people think they can just treat yeast and get better but usually its not the case....there are underlying issues.

He said when mercury is present.....yeast is always an issue.

He wants to put me on either nystatin or diflucin. I have experience with both and I chose nystatin. Diflucin is hard on the liver and nystatin is completey safe and can be taken long term....also its very effective.

I was surprised he didnt want me on the natural antifungals since he's prefers natural methods of healing. He said we need to get this under control and he doesnt feel that the natural antifungals work as quickly and he said they dont have the strength that the prescription antifungals have. He gave me a script for Nystatin.....he wants me to get it at the compounding pharmacy....for better quality.

I told him that I did all this before and even though it helped I never got better and the yeast came right back. I said "Isnt it true that if you dont treat the underlying cause you cant get rid of the yeast??" "So shouldnt we treat the other stuff too?? If I have mercury...shouldnt we get rid of it.....if its still there wont the candida just come right back???"

He said yes, the candida will always come back if the underlying issues are still there. I asked how we will get rid of the mercury?? Dont I need chelation??

He said I absolutely cannot do chelation....he said it would be a huge step backward in my health. He said I'm too sick and my body cant handle such a strong treatment. I'm too toxic. :(

He said treating yeast will reduce toxicity. We will need to continue treating yeast throughout. The candida toxins are causing alot of the allergies, leaky gut, food intolerance and liver dysfunction.

He said hopefully I'll feel better in a couple weeks from taking the nystatin. Then he will start to work on detoxing mercury with natural remedies. Building my body up and all that other stuff. The main thing is reducing toxicity and with each thing my body will get stronger and tolerate more treatment.

We still dont know how much Lyme is contributing to all this.

I asked him about diet....he said with prescription antifungals we dont have to be *as* strict with diet...but again....he's really frusterated with me eating ice cream.

He said that ice cream is the *worst* thing I can be eating.....its all bad fats....its dairy and its got sugar. :( He doesnt want me eating it and he said if I want to make things easier for us I'll stop eating it. He said he hopes the treatments can at least give me a few foods so that I can give up the ice cream. BOO-HOO.

I'm glad I'm at least getting on the nystatin again and hopefully it will give the treatments a better chance of holding.

I asked him if I can take grapefruit seed extract too....he said thats fine but rotate to caprylic acid or something else after a week or two. The Bioset lady said I could rotate after a month so I'll guess I'll go in the middle....2 weeks on grapefruit seed extract....then switch. B)

I asked him if candida is likely the main cause for my leaky gut. He said yeah...other things can contribute and the food intolerances keep it leaky but yeast is generally the most common cause for leaky gut.

I feel certain that yeast is the cause....I agree with what he said and I think that yeast is the #1 cause of leaky gut.....a direct result of dysbiosis caused by antibiotics. Our own food supply is loaded with antibiotics. <_<

Basically something lowers the immune system....yeast overgrows....the overgrowth causes leaky gut.....leaky gut causes food intolerance and on and on and on...

He said wheat and dairy intolerance are always seen in leaky gut....they are the worst food sensitivities caused by candida. We already know that these two proteins cause the most damage when they trigger an immune response by crossing into the bloodstream.

I had this discussion on another thread yesterday. Basically I was saying that I felt that gluten was *not* the main cause of leaky gut in non-celiac individuals. This is what I wrote...

I used to believe that gluten caused leaky gut in non-celiac individuals....I believed in this 100%.

Now I question it.

My main question is this....

How can they know that gluten is actually *causing* the leaky gut??? So many factors can attribute to leaky gut....including genetics. Also the permeability of the gut can change from day to day....so some days it may be leakier than others.

Obviously stuff like alcohol, antibiotics and even a short term yeast overgrowth can cause the gut to become leakier...so the very first time gluten leaks into the bloodstream there will be antibodies produced by the immune system. From then on....as long as the gut is leaky someone without Celiac can get imflammation to the gut lining from consuming gluten. This is the case with *all* food intolerances and leaky gut....they continue to irritate the lining so that is not allowed to heal.

These days leaky gut occurs more frequently because of our lifestyle and all of the chemicals in our food.....so yeah...ALOT more people will be reacting to gluten because ALOT more people will have leaky gut. Since gluten so closely resembles our own body's tissue...its gonna cause more severe reactions due to the autoimmune factor associated with gluten.

I'm just not convinced that gluten is actually *causing* leaky gut....especially since leaky gut is a condtion that has become more of a modern day affliction. Gluten has been around for ages whereas leaky gut is only more recently becoming a common occurrance.

I think it is more likely that the chemicals, preservatives, prescription medications, highly processed foods, and high sugar and carb diets...not to mention lifestyle and stress....are more to blame for leaky gut. Gluten just gets a free pass into the bloodstream and lots of problems from then on.

Keep in mind that there are also bacteria, fungi, parasites and LOTS of other "invaders" crossing through the leaky gut so while gluten is an enemy at this point...there are also ALOT of *other* enemies the immune system has to deal with. A person can become quite symptomatic with leaky gut and of course gluten will most likely *always* be a trigger for symptoms and damage once the immune system is actively fighting it.

Here is a list of contributing factors for leaky gut...

*Antibiotics because they lead to the overgrowth of abnormal flora in the gastrointestinal tract (bacteria, parasites, candida, fungi)

*Chronic Stress

*Alcohol and caffeine (strong gut irritants)

*Foods and beverages contaminated by parasites like Giardia lamblia, cryptosporidium, blastocystis hominis and others

*Foods and beverages contaminated by bacteria like helicobacter pylori, klebsiella, citrobacter, pseudomonas and others

*Chemicals in fermented and processed food (dyes, preservatives, peroxidized fats)

*Enzyme deficiencies (e.g. celiac disease, lactase deficiency causing lactose intolerance)

*NSAIDS (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) like ASA, ibuprofen, indomethacin, etc.

*Prescription corticosteroids (e.g. prednisone, hydrocortisone, DepoMedrol, etc.)

*High refined carbohydrate diet (e.g. candy bars, cookies, cake, soft drinks, white bread)

*Prescription hormones like the birth control pill

*Mold and fungal mycotoxins in stored grains, fruit and refined carbohydrates

So with alot of these things being a part of our daily lives....its no wonder that the gut is particularly vulnerable. Also residing in the gut is a HUGE portion of our immune system...when that goes out of balance....health will deteriorate. I dont know that it would be possible to have leaky gut and *not* have dysbiosis to some extent.

Eating a normal diet has its consequences. Fast food, chemicals, preservatives, refined sugar....not to mention neurotoxins like MSG and Aspartame....how much of these daily assaults can our guts really handle?? All of these have increased to the point that much of our food supply contains things that are harmful to us and its nearly impossible to avoid. It has steadily increased over the years.

It makes more sense to me that gluten intolerance is a *consequence* of leaky gut rather than a cause in non-celiac individuals. When the gut is already damaged gluten becomes a contributing factor but I'm not convinced it actually started the process.

I would love to see evidence that gluten alone is causing leaky gut in non-celiac gluten sensitivity...obviously this would clear up alot of things for me.

Right now I'm not convinced it was the cause of my leaky gut...and the issue has not resolved itself with the removal of gluten. I am much less symptomatic w/out having gluten passing through my very leaky gut...but its just one of many things I need to avoid in order to not have serious neurological symptoms.

I find that MSG and Aspartame cause much more damage passing through the gut than gluten does.....by FAR. I can only speak from my own experience though.

I think more studies need to done on leaky gut to determine if gluten by itself can cause damage to the intestinal lining when someone is not genetically predisposed for Celiac Disease.

So that is my opinion as it stands right now. I think in non-celiacs the trigger for gluten intolerance is leaky gut....damage to the gut from causes *other* than gluten. Once the immune response is triggered the effects can be just as damaging as what is seen in celiac....only the autoimmune response will cause damage to tissue anywhere in the body....not specifiaclly the villi as is seen in Celiac.

This is only my opinion. It could change tomorrow. :rolleyes:

I believe the stressors put on our body....whether its from Lyme Disease, mercury toxicity, chemicals, prescription medications or other immune suppressants.....whatever it may be that is bringing the immune system down....can lead to dysbiosis, candida overgrowth and/or leaky gut. Especially when we throw antibiotics into the mix. <_<

So here I am...back where I started and going back onto nystatin for candida. He said he suspects major die-off so he doesnt even want me starting it on a workday. He wants me only taking half a capsule and slowly working up to the max of 3 capsules per day.

This should really help with the sensitivities once I get past initial die-off. When I was taking Nystatin a couple years ago I did not have as many sensitivities....however the sensitivities were worse for the first week due to die-off....but I did not start out slow either. I jumped right into the full dose. :rolleyes:

Something else I posted yesterday which is VERY VERY interesting to me.

Coeliac disease is a T-cell-mediated autoimmune disease of the small intestine that is induced by ingestion of gluten proteins from wheat, barley, or rye. We postulate that Candida albicans is a trigger in the onset of coeliac disease. The virulence factor of C albicans-hyphal wall protein 1 (HWP1)-contains aminoacid sequences that are identical or highly homologous to known coeliac disease-related alpha-gliadin and gamma-gliadin T-cell epitopes. HWP1 is a transglutaminase substrate, and is used by C albicans to adhere to the intestinal epithelium. Furthermore, tissue transglutaminase and endomysium components could become covalently linked to the yeast. Subsequently, C albicans might function as an adjuvant that stimulates antibody formation against HWP1 and gluten, and formation of autoreactive antibodies against tissue transglutaminase and endomysium.

I have seen similar info. in several articles over the past 2 years and I dismissed it for all this time.

Now I am not so sure. <_<

Noone has *ever* been able to answer my question as to why people have positive tTG in Enterolab stool testing and yet they are *not* celiac...and they are lacking the genes. I am one of those people.....and I still havent received an answer to this question. Isnt tTG specific for Celiac Disease??? So if thats true...and tissue transglutaminase is specific for Celiac....why is Enterolab finding it in non-celiacs?? :huh:

Here is another article....

Subject: Celiac disease, triggered by gluten proteins from wheat in susceptible people, can damage the central nervous system. The cell walls of Candida, the yeast responsible for oral thrush, vaginal infections and intestinal Candidiasis, contain the same protein sequence as wheat gluten and may trigger or stimulate Celiac Disease.

Our understanding of celiac disease has come a long way in the last few years. Several recent studies have linked celiac disease to central nervous system damage which may cause sporadic ataxia. Other studies have identified the particular protein sequence in gluten which causes celiac disease. Other researchers have identified a similar protein in candida yeast and suggest that it may also trigger the same disease. These studies suggest that the typical digestive symptoms we associate with celiac disease are present less than 20% of the time. Having "normal" digestion no longer rules out the disease.

This is a complicated business but I think rather than gloss over it many people deserve and need the details. So please bear with me and skip over the parts that get to thick.

First a bit of background:

Celiac disease is also called coeliac disease or celiac sprue. The Merck Manual defines it as a "chronic intestinal malabsorption disorder caused by intolerance to gluten." [1]The villi of the small intestine atrophy and nutrients are poorly absorbed resulting in steatorrhea (frequent greasy stools) and malnutrition. Sufferers usually get better when gluten containing cereal grains are removed from the diet. Although the syndrome was described earlier, [2] it wasn't until 1950 that the link between dietary cereals and the disease was figured out. [3] During the Second World War when the Germans occupied Holland , children with celiac sprue improved dramatically only to get sick again disease again at the end of the war. During the war, wheat and rye were in short supply in Holland . The researcher who noticed this was able to show that it was the gluten protein in grains which triggered the disease. [4]

Celiac is a genetic disorder and the incidence varies among different populations. Ireland and people of Irish descent have the highest incidence, about 1 person in 300. In Europe and the United States the incidence is much lower, reported at about 1 in 2,500 or less. The longer a population has eaten wheat the lower the incidence. Europeans have cultivated wheat for almost 9,000 years while the Irish have grown it for only about 3,000 years. I suppose we could rename the disease Celtic Sprue rather than celiac sprue. When tested 90% of people with celiac disease are positive for the HLA-B8 antigen in their blood.

The classic problems associated with celiac disease are those of malabsorption and nutritional deficiency. Children with the disease fail to thrive; they are deficient in all of the fat soluble vitamins (A, E, K, and D) and many of the minerals, especially calcium and magnesium. While children are prone to osteomalacia, adults usually develop osteoporosis. This has been the description of celiac disease that medical text books have talked about for decades. Now for what's new.

For the last ten years we have known that celiac disease is associated with hypothyroid disease, specifically Hashimoto's Disease. About 10- 14% of celiac patients are hypothyroid. Celiac patients are about ten times as likely to have thyroid nodules. [5,6,7] Is it the same genetic predisposition making people overly prone to develop autoimmune diseases that causes both conditions? Or is it the chronic bowel inflammation that stimulates these autoimmune reactions? At this point it isn't clear.

Celiac is clearly an autoimmune disease. The gliaden portion of the gluten protein contains a sequence of amino acids that trigger the immune reaction. When they bind on to the intestinal mucosa they act as an antigen and summon killer lymphocytes to attack. The immune system also develops an immune reaction to the muscle lining of the intestine, the endomysium and the enzyme transglutaminase. [8] People with celiac disease make antibodies which attack both the endomysium and the enzyme transglutaminase. Once this autoimmune process has been triggered, damage occurs in other parts of the body and not just the intestine.

Neurological damage occurs with celiac disease. Early on this was thought to be due to nutrient deficiencies caused by malabsorption. Current research shows that the problem is more complex. Celiac disease stimulates the production of antibodies which attack areas besides the intestine including the central nervous system. About 40% of patients who suffer from idiopathic sporadic ataxia have celiac disease which damages their central nervous systems. [9,10,11] The neurological symptoms of celiac disease mimic the symptoms of multiple sclerosis to the degree that celiac must always be ruled out when diagnosing this disease. [12] The neurological conditions caused by celiac disease are now called gluten ataxia and cause damage to the cerebellum, the posterior columns of the spinal cord, and the peripheral nerves. [13]

The studies on gluten ataxia have revealed a significant statistic. In patients who had clearly measurable antibodies that are diagnostic of celiac disease and were suffering from gluten ataxia, only 13% had any gastrointestinal complaints. In other words, the hallmark symptoms of poor digestion we associate with celiac disease and use to diagnose the condition may be absent in 87% of patients with gluten related problems! [14] This suggests that celiac may be way under diagnosed.

Now we come to what to me is the most interesting of the recent research regarding celiac. It seems fitting that the research again comes from Holland , where celiac disease was first linked to diet. Dr. Nieuwenhuizen, from the research group TNO Nutrition and Food Research, published a paper in the June, 2003, Lancet. He links celiac disease with Candida albicans. Dr. Nieuwenhuizen, knowing the actual sequence of proteins which trigger celiac disease from the published work of other scientists, had searched the databases available to him through TNO to see if the same sequence existed in other places. It turns out the identical sequence of proteins occur in the cell walls of Candida albicans. [15]

These Candida gluten-like proteins turn out to be the yeast's "hypha-specific surface protein" nicknamed Hwp1. This is the yeast's version of Velcro and allows it to attach and hang onto the endomysium in the wall of the intestine. It is also targeted by transglutaminase, the enzyme which acts on the gluten protein and serves as a target for immune antibodies. Candida species which don't have this Hwp1 protein can't attach themselves to the digestive tract. [16]

If Candida can trigger the same chemical and immunological reactions as wheat gluten do we can imagine a number of interesting implications.

First, in people with celiac disease, symptoms usually get better rapidly when they eliminate gluten from their diet. This isn't always the case. Even without gluten some people continue to have symptoms. They may have intestinal Candidiasis. The Candida in their gut may be acting like gluten and continues triggering symptoms. Second, an acute Candida infection may trigger the onset of celiac disease. Even if the Candida is treated and eliminated, the person could be left with a permanent sensitivity to wheat gluten. Candida infections occur frequently with antibiotic usage. In people genetically susceptible to celiac, extra caution should be exercised when using antibiotics to prevent Candida overgrowth.

Third, if wheat can cause neurological damage as in gluten ataxia, it is reasonable to assume that Candida could also do so by the same process. Reports of Candida infections causing neurological symptoms are not uncommon; now we have a possible explanation.

Fourth, if only a small portion of the people with gluten ataxia have gastrointestinal symptoms despite their severe damage elsewhere in their bodies, it is reasonable to assume that Candida could stimulate significant problems while producing slight or no digestive symptoms.

So what does all this mean? Here's my bottom line:

Celiac disease may be grossly under diagnosed. It should be ruled out in any chronic digestive condition even if the symptoms don't fit the classic picture. Celiac disease should also be ruled out in osteoporosis and in neurological problems, especially MS. Celiac disease should also be ruled out in Hashimoto's Disease and other thyroid abnormalities. Whenever Celiac disease is diagnosed, Candida infections should be tested for and treated aggressively. People of Irish descent are far more likely to get celiac disease than others and should be extra cautious to avoid Candida infections and treat them aggressively if they occur.

Wow....this has turned into a long post. :blink:

What do you guys think?? Could this be why some Celiacs do not get better after removing gluten and still experience "glutenings" w/out gluten. :unsure:

Could the candida be causing the leaky gut and resulting additional food intolerances long after gluten is removed from the diet??

Could this be why some people intially get better but then suddenly experience the same type of symtpoms they had prior to going off gluten??

It makes perfect sense to me if its true that candida ia also targeted by tissue transglutaminase as is suggested in many articles.

This would also make sense of my Enterolab results and continued problems.....my test results show HIGH antibody production against yeast and I felt "glutened" loooong after gluten was removed from my diet....and I still sufer malabsorption and leaky gut.

Maybe I should repeat my Enterolab testing and see if I still have elevated tTG??? I certainly shouldnt after 2 years off gluten. <_<

So tonight I mentioned to my Dr. that I have gluten intolerance and at one time thought that it might be Celiac but it turned out that I dont carry the genes. I told him I must have developed the intolerance from leaky gut.

So then he says...."You know....there are researchers who have done studies and believe that yeast actually triggers the same response from the immune system as gluten. That they are so similar in structure that the immune system launches the same attack on both gliadin molecule and candida albicans." :o

So yeah....I posted this info yesterday and my Dr. brought it up to me tonight...and I think it makes alot of sense. I think it could be a factor in why some Celiacs dont get better.

To make matters worse mainstream Dr.'s dont treat Candida...so if a Celiac isnt recovering they certainly arent gonna look at this as a possible cause. It makes sense though since Celiacs that dont recover usually go on to develop more intolerances.....its the candida/leaky gut connection.

Everything starts coming together. A person may be healthy....then one day something happens....say they get exposed to Lyme or Mono....this lowers their immune system....say they need to take antibiotics for lyme treatment or some other infection due to lowered immunity....say this antibiotic treatment alters their gut flora.....say their immune system isnt strong enough at this point to "get it together" and a yeast overgrowth occurs.....say the persons diet continues to feed the yeast.....say the yeast continue to colonize and leaky gut occurs....say gluten leaks into the bloodstream....say the immune system produces anti-gliadin antibodies....say this person has DQ2 or DQ8....what do you think happens next??? :o

Say the person doesnt have a Celiac gene.....the immune response is still gonna happen...just not causing the same exact type of damage.

What do you guys think....does it make sense??

For anyone who's actually read this far....WOW! :blink:

I think this might be a record post for me....lots going through my mind tonight. :rolleyes:

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