Biopsy Etc. And Amnesiac Drugs - Concern

[gfp]

WARNING EXPECT EXPLICIT TALK AND SUBJECTS.....

Lister ... Please don't read this. I have been holding off asking this question until your tests today.

Everyone else who might not get offended....

The bottom line is I feel a bit concerned about amnesiac drugs.

The whole idea of being concious but not remembering sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Firstly, we never truly forget anything... we loose track of it and misfile it but until advance senility we remember almost everything just a lot is stored in deep storage.

Now the pretext for this seems to be "we are going to do something horrible but so long as you don't remember its OK"

I have three fundamental objections.

The first is that this is a recipe for repressed memories and repressed memories often cause sub councious problems. I can alsmost see therapists in 20 yrs time helping patients relive the biopsy to remember it because they have a gag reaction for no reason...

The second is that as human beings we are nothing but the sum of our memory and experience (religion aside) .... i don't want my memories repressed.. that is WHO I am. How do I know they will not interfere with other memories I want to keep?

Thirdly and this is the best analogy but some people might take offense....

These drugs are common date rape drugs... what are we saying? To me its saying if you don't remember then it doesn't matter. Its like saying yeah you were date raped but so long as you don't remember the actual event (and presuming no infections etc.,) then its perfectly OK.

But we know full well that victims of date rape drugs actually go through a lot more.. more perhaps even than those held at gun point. It absolutely isn't OK in my book ... in fact its far from OK....

Does anyone else wonder about this?

[Guest nini]

you bring up an interesting point...

I was given some kind of amnesiac drug when I had my wisdom tooth pulled... I didn't remember a thing, but when the nurse called me later to check on me, I told her I was hungry and she rattled off every soft item I had in my pantry. How did she know this? While I was under the effects of this drug apparently I told her the entire contents of my fridge and pantry. My dad also said he had to contain himself from laughing at the things I said on the drive home... again, I remembered NONE of it. Bizarre feeling really, to be awake but to not remember a damn thing.

[jerseyangel]

The bottom line is I feel a bit concerned about amnesiac drugs.

Firstly, we never truly forget anything... we loose track of it and misfile it but until advance senility we remember almost everything just a lot is stored in deep storage.

The first is that this is a recipe for repressed memories and repressed memories often cause sub councious problems. I can alsmost see therapists in 20 yrs time helping patients relive the biopsy to remember it because they have a gag reaction for no reason...

Does anyone else wonder about this?

Yep--I've often wondered about the things that I highlighted!

I didn't think anyone else did, though Like when I least expect it, while being under a lot of stress or something, the repressed memories and pain of these procedures might come out all of a sudden.

After my colo/endo, my doctor came and talked to me--as soon as he walked away, I couldn't for the life of me remember a word he said. It was such a strange feeling. I usually remember everything--and obsess about it

Can't believe someone else actually brought this up.....

[Jestgar]

I'm not fond of the idea of these drugs either, but from a totally different perspective. This comes from way back when I used to to animal work.

It seems to me that a dissasociative drug which allows you to not remember what happened still means that you experience the pain or discomfort at the moment it's happening. I would only use these types of drugs on the mice if they were used in conjuction with an analgesic. So if somehow the mouse was experiencing discomfort, it would be fleeting. But it was only a back-up since mice don't say "ow".

The though of using this on a human seems slightly barbaric.

I realize that some procedures are only uncomfortable and it may be that people are more stressed by the thought of what's happening rather than what's really happening, but still, on the off chance that this particular person is very sensitive to pain, why not just put them lightly under? You would avoid the torture aspect entirely.

Isn't there an anesthesiologist that is on this board? I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has experience in this.

[penguin]

Personally, for me, anyway, I like the amenisatic drugs. In my case, they were used in conjunction with fentanyl, so I wasn't all there anyway. The doctor explained that they still needed me awake so that I would be able to follow commands (swallow, cough, etc.). I know that they don't necessarily require these drugs, and that if someone has an objection they don't have to use them, not that most people would think of that. For my first endoscopy, I remember some of it. For the second, I remember none of it. I do not like that the doctor speaks to you about what happened directly after you're wheeled out...I don't entirely trust my husband to pay close enough attention

[Guest ~jules~]

Ya I remember mine, and I fibbed a tad. I do remember one single thing, I saw my colon on the screen and commented that I had a pretty little colon. It was like a dream though, but I'm sure I said it, and now every time I see my gi doc i'm mortified.

[LKelly8]

My first GI doc asked me right before the endo, "Do you want to be a little awake or a little asleep?". I choose "a little awake" and I remember quite a bit of the exam. I still was drugged and woozy but felt no pain and I recovered very quickly. I felt respected and able to maintain a sense of personal control.

My second GI doc had an assembly line operation. It was horrible and dehumanizing. I remember nothing and it took forever to fully wake up.

[ravenwoodglass]

WARNING EXPECT EXPLICIT TALK AND SUBJECTS.....

Lister ... Please don't read this. I have been holding off asking this question until your tests today.

Everyone else who might not get offended....

The bottom line is I feel a bit concerned about amnesiac drugs.

The whole idea of being concious but not remembering sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Firstly, we never truly forget anything... we loose track of it and misfile it but until advance senility we remember almost everything just a lot is stored in deep storage.

Now the pretext for this seems to be "we are going to do something horrible but so long as you don't remember its OK"

I have three fundamental objections.

The first is that this is a recipe for repressed memories and repressed memories often cause sub councious problems. I can alsmost see therapists in 20 yrs time helping patients relive the biopsy to remember it because they have a gag reaction for no reason...

The second is that as human beings we are nothing but the sum of our memory and experience (religion aside) .... i don't want my memories repressed.. that is WHO I am. How do I know they will not interfere with other memories I want to keep?

Thirdly and this is the best analogy but some people might take offense....

These drugs are common date rape drugs... what are we saying? To me its saying if you don't remember then it doesn't matter. Its like saying yeah you were date raped but so long as you don't remember the actual event (and presuming no infections etc.,) then its perfectly OK.

But we know full well that victims of date rape drugs actually go through a lot more.. more perhaps even than those held at gun point. It absolutely isn't OK in my book ... in fact its far from OK....

Does anyone else wonder about this?

I also have concerns about some of what you are saying. I insisted that I be completely out for my procedures. As someone who has repressed memories from a combo of childhood experience and early onset celiac I KNOW some of those memories need to stay right where they are. Those memories are a part of my subconsious mind but as was explained to me, bringing them to the surface would only bring the very bad memories into my everyday thought process and cause more trauma. The brain surpresses memories for a reason and it is not always wise to force them to the surface. If a psychologist were to know that the patient underwent a proceure of this type, and they should be aware of the patients total history, they could help them overcome the gag effect through many other methods that would be more benificial and less painful than 'reliving the experience' IMHO.

The third part is an interesting analogy however, when someone is raped and this type of drug or alcohol is involved the person has no control over the situation. They did not make a concious decision to allow the rape before it occured. When someone undergoes a procedure and this type of drug is used they have made a choice to use it. They know someone is going to stick something up their butt or down their throat. The psychological trama that would occur during a rape, an uncontrolled and unplanned event, would not IMHO occur under the testing circumstance.

[gfp]

Isn't there an anesthesiologist that is on this board? I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has experience in this.

methinks as usual we will have to do this ourselves!

Ketamine, Adolescents, and the Emergence Phenomenon

Lance Brown, Geoffrey Pableo, Thomas Sherwin, T. Kent Denmark, Aqeel Khan, Edward Vargas, James A. Moynihan, Besh Barcega, Grace Kim, Gail Stewart and Steven M. Green

Loma Linda University Medical Center and Children's Hospital: Loma Linda, CA

ABSTRACT

OBJECTIVE: Historically, the potential for unpleasant recovery reactions (the "emergence phenomenon") in adolescents recovering from dissociative sedation has led to recommendations against the use of ketamine in this age group. The objective of our study was to describe the incidence and severity of unpleasant recovery reactions in a cohort of adolescents receiving ketamine sedation in the emergency department. METHODS:We have an ongoing prospective, observational study of intravenous ketamine use in our pediatric emergency department. Since March 2002, we have enrolled 684 subjects. We identified all subjects 13-18 years of age in this cohort. For each subject, agitation and unpleasant hallucinations were recorded on an unmarked 100-mm visual analog scale (VAS) with "none" (0) on the left and "worst possible" (100) on the right. Other variables included age, gender, the use of benzodiazepines and atropine, and the procedure performed. This study is IRB-approved. RESULTS: We identified 96 adolescents aged 13-17.7 years (median 14.5, IQR 13.7-15.2 years). Twenty-six (27%) of the subjects were female. Benzodiazepines were given to 4 (4%) subjects, concurrently with ketamine in each instance. Atropine was given to 8 (8%) subjects. All subjects underwent painful procedures; 93% had fracture or wound care. Agitation and/or unpleasant hallucinations were observed in 4 (4%) subjects [95% CI 1%-10%]. Of these 4 subjects, 2 exhibited both agitation and unpleasant hallucinations, 1 exhibited only agitation, and 1 exhibited only unpleasant hallucinations. None of these 4 subjects received atropine or a benzodiazepine. The agitation VAS scores were 2, 15, and 24 mm. The hallucination VAS scores were 6, 20, and 22 mm. CONCLUSION: Although there is no validated measure of agitation or unpleasant hallucinations, relatively low scores suggest mild reactions. Unpleasant recovery reactions were uncommon and mild in adolescents receiving intravenous ketamine in our study.

Oh its sounds OK then?

Personally, for me, anyway, I like the amenisatic drugs.

Well they are readily available on the black market if you like em so much....

Half joking... If Im going to get all drugged out then I'd rather have a more traditional anaesthetic who's effects are well known for thousands of years..

I'm not fond of the idea of these drugs either, but from a totally different perspective.

I think that is my #3 perspective? Is it not?

The idea that its OK to experience pain so long as you don't remember it?

The point is if I'm being operated on I would want to remember it. I can't think of anythig worse than flashbacks... I remember a MD thinking I was weird when I asked to be propped up to watch him remove a (benign) melanoma... but I can't understand why people wouldn't want to see.

I'd rather watch the scalpel cutting than see it go up and then out of vision?

Open Original Shared Link

SUMMARY

105 patients undergoing diagnostic laparoscopy were randomly divided into three groups (n=35 each). Group I received I.V. diazepam and ketamine, group II received I.V. midazolam and ketamine, whereas Group III received pentazocine, diazepam and ketamine. 26 patients had emergence phenomena and were treated with I.V. promethazine hcl. 25 mg 22 (84.5%) of these had excellent control whereas 4 patients required additional dose. Hence it is concluded that pentazocine and midazolam reduce the incidence where as promethazine effectively controls the emergence phenomena.

Again somewhat <word in English?> ...

I mean its obvious they spot emergence phenomenum because it happes post surgery ....but what happens if it happens 2 or 20 years down the line.

Unlike true psychedelics, ketamine is powerfully reinforcing to many users and compulsive use is frequently reported. Both ketamine pioneer John Lilly and pseudonymous author D.M. Turner reported experienced prolong periods of 'ketamine dependency' and the latter drowned in a bathtub while on ketamine.

Well at least he won't remember it....

From the pro-recreational drug site erowid.org

DRUG :

Ketamine Hydrochloride

STREET NAMES :

K, Ket, Ketamine, Special K, Vitamin K

BRIEF :

Ketamine is an anaesthetic used primarily for veterinary purposes. Ketamine blocks nerve paths without depressing respiratory and circulatory functions, and therefore acts as a safe and reliable anaesthetic. It is commonly injected intramuscularly, but can also be taken orally and nasal pharyngealically. Ketamine is only available to physicians, and is not commonly sold as an illicit drug, and is scheduled in several states. [Erowid Note: Ketamine was placed in Schedule III in August, 1999 making it illegal to possess in the United States without a license or prescription.] The most common trade name for Ketamine are Ketaset and Ketalar, which are intramuscular veterinary Ketamine HCls.

CHEMISTRY :

2-(2-Chlorophenyl1)-(methylamino)-cyclohexanone hydrochloride

M.W. - 274.2 C13H16CINO-HCL

LD50 (IPR-MUS): 400 mg/kg, LD50 (IVN-MUS): 77 mg/kg.

white solid - melting point 266*C - non-flammable.

Solubility: water 20g/100ml

REFERENCES :

Merck Index, 11th Ed., No. 5174

Anis, N.A., Berry, S.C., Burton, N.R., Lodge, D. "The dissociative anaesthetics, ketmine and phencyclidine, selevtively reduce excitation of central mammalian neurones by N-methyl aspartate." Br. J. Pharmacol 79, 565 (1983).

PSYCHEDELIC INDICATIONS :

Ketamine does not treat music so well. Expect a narrowing of your auditory bandwidth. Music will sound neat but not correct and not transcending. You will selectively lose frequencies. Use mellow music with a psychedelic flavor, and keep the volume less than loud because your perception of overall volume will increase. Visual hallucinations are most notable in low light. Touch is exceptional. Smells and tastes will be nulled. Do not expect to talk, although you may. Expect general reflection but not exceptional emotionality.

DOSAGE :

Due to its anaesthetic nature, K can produce wide ranging effects from different amounts. There seems to be a crucial line where the patient will lose grasp of his/her primary senses, and this will be termed a Line Dose. A further line exists where the patient will lose complete consciousness. In general, boosting is not adequate and it does not seem worthwhile to boost the original dose more than ten minutes after initial dose. General tolerance is appreciable and several weeks between uses are required to return to original tolerance. For most types, effects are linear with dose, and good experience can be had at low dosages.

ORAL DOSE :

A Line Dose is about 1.0 mg/lb. body mass. Anaesthetic doses are above 4.0 mg/lb. A maximum oral dose of 3 mg/lb. should be set for adequate recovery. Above line dose, increasing doses yield little psychedelic advantage except for greater temporary memory loss. A good first dose is 300-350 mg for average weight woman, and 350-375 mg for average weight men. A minimum dose of 150-175 mg will give a good psychedelic experience.

IM DOSE :

Intramuscular doses begin at perhaps .4 mg/lb. for a Line Dose. Anaesthetic doses to IM are about 1 mg/lb. Two injections should be made instead of one. Sterility of the bottle and needle are imperative. 100 mg seems to be a good IM dose for everyone. Expect soreness in the injection region for several days or weeks.

IV DOSE :

I do not recommend IV doses but have read reports of successful IV dosing. In the IV case you will probably lose motor control before you finish injecting so beware.

NASAL DOSE :

Nasal doses are highly unlinear next to oral and IM doses. The effects are quite different as well at low doses. At Line Doses, oral consumption is probably a better bet than nasal doses. A Line Dose nasally would again be about 1.0 mg/lb. A minimum dose nasally would be about .25 mg/lb, but will be short and much different from a comparable oral dose. 75-100 mg would be a good starter for most weights. Ketamine is relatively comfortable in the nasal region.

PREP :

IV and IM require fully sterile Ket bottle and needle. Powder for nasal use can be gotten from gentle boiling off of solution. To prepare an oral dose from a powder, place powder in a cup and pour about 1 cm of hot water (tap should be ok) in it and stir to solution. Fill remainder of cup with an acid such as orange juice.

SETTING :

As with all anaesthetics, Ketamine will make the patient nauseaous to varying degrees, directly related to dosage. Therefore, the patient should find him/herself in a place where he/she can stay for several hours, with most ammenities close at hand (any movement will compound nauseau). A non-Ketting person is a great help, and will be fun to talk to, and convenient for changing music, etc. Darkness will eliminate some very strange visual experiences. Music is very powerful. Warmth can also be important, as although your respiratory system will not be depressed, you may become cold from inactivity. A blanket is a good idea. Dope should be handy for nauseau, and a bucket should be available as a precaution. Vomitting should be rare, but in the case, it is not a good idea to have to travel to the bathroom. You should try to make sure that your co-trippers start when you do, as it is a rapid starting drug. Nasal doses can usually accomodate real scenes, i.e. clubs or company, but expect things to be very strange.

TIMING :

Taken intramuscularly, Ketamine will bring you up quickly in less than two minutes. Orally, with a medium-full stomach, expect 15-20 minutes, and as little as five minutes on an empty stomach. Nasal doses allow 5-10 minutes. The acceleration is great but not alarming. Expect to be semi-unconscious on a Line-Dose for about an hour intramuscualrly, and slightly longer when taken orally. You will come down quickly as well past the first line, and will begin to assimilate senses over about an half-hour. When taken orally, a soft trip will linger for approximately 2-3 hours after that and can be lots of fun. You will feel light, lanky, and queasy for several hours, and may be somewhat light-headed, though not incapacable the following day. Nitrous has had success in bringing Ketamine down quickly, despite its anaesthetic nature.

THE TRIP :

Before reaching the first line, fragmentation will occur- the world will begin to spin, but it won't be dizzying. Music will become fragmented. Chaos will ensue. At some point, you will find yourself complete removed from your surroundings and your body. Descriptions of the post-line experience vary substantially, but most include talk of alternate planes of existence, oneness, past and future revelations, and strange fabrics of all sorts. It will be very difficult to communicate at this point, and you probably will not be able to see or hear others in the room. Some revelations will be extremely heavy and some scary, but that fear does not seem to come back with you and is therefore difficult to describe as scary. You will probably find yourself coming back across the line again visibly, attempting to put an object in focus or define it. It is at this point that you will likely want to get in touch with your co-trippers. This is the "Wow" period. It is very important here that you do not try to move for awhile. The trip will continue mildly for an hour or so after this, with more conventional focuses.

PRECAUTIONS :

An overdose of Ketamine will knock you out as if in an operating room. This would prove to be a waste of a tripping experience, and will probably make you ill to your stomach. The danger dosage is much higher however, at 10 mg/lb. Interactively, Ketamine should not be used with respiratory depressants, primarily alcohol, barbituates, and Valium. Ketamine has been used with no ill interactive effects with dope, acid, nitrous, dextromethorphan, and MDMA, although no combinations are recommended and are highly unnecessary given the totality of ketamine. It does not have a build-on effect with halucinagins and will generally overpower other drugs. Nitrous in the up and down periods can be effective. Unpracticed trippers may be overpowered by the awesome revelations of Ketamine and may be somewhat overwhelmed, although in general fear seems to be unable to compound here (such as in an LSD trip or with other drug paranoias) and will probably be only episodic. Food should not be consumed within an hour and one-half before the trip, and should be avoided for longer periods of time if possible. A peculiar sort of loneliness can occur over the line, so it is a good idea to stay in close quarters with people you are close with, and best to have a sober monitor or experienced Ketter at hand.

TRIPS BY DOSE :

Doses that do not push one over the consciousness line can be very fun if you get close. In general, a 150 mg minimum would be required to realize an effect. Under that amount, you will only feel a very operable up and down over about an half-hour that will give you no insight into Ketamine. At higher doses, the up will last longer, but in less than linear fashion. In general it seems that oral doses last longer. Trips over 450 mg. can be severe on the stomach and have rapidly diminishing returns over lower doses, and are therefore not recommended, although 450 mg. itself is a very sound and powerful trip.

REPORTS :

A number of sources claim Vitamin K to be a boring drug. Some complain that it removes you so completely from your body that it is difficult to even work with. Others have found Vit K to be very potent and shapable, an experience that can be tailormade by dosage and setting. There is little question that there is no comparable experience on any other drugs. Most agree that it has a good to very good recovery with little negative effect on the following day and mild hangover. Setting is agreed to be crucial. Most agree that Ketamin not be used by inexperienced trippers unless they want a complete out-of-body experience that is sure to change their life.

Hmm seems like fun to take with a pleasant experience ...I wonder about taken with unpleasant ones?

I also have concerns about some of what you are saying. I insisted that I be completely out for my procedures. As someone who has repressed memories from a combo of childhood experience and early onset celiac I KNOW some of those memories need to stay right where they are. Those memories are a part of my subconsious mind but as was explained to me, bringing them to the surface would only bring the very bad memories into my everyday thought process and cause more trauma. The brain surpresses memories for a reason and it is not always wise to force them to the surface. If a psychologist were to know that the patient underwent a proceure of this type, and they should be aware of the patients total history, they could help them overcome the gag effect through many other methods that would be more benificial and less painful than 'reliving the experience' IMHO.

The gad is just an example, it could be horrible nightmares or daytime hallucinations, these happen with LSD after years...

The third part is an interesting analogy however, when someone is raped and this type of drug or alcohol is involved the person has no control over the situation. They did not make a concious decision to allow the rape before it occured. When someone undergoes a procedure and this type of drug is used they have made a choice to use it. They know someone is going to stick something up their butt or down their throat. The psychological trama that would occur during a rape, an uncontrolled and unplanned event, would not IMHO occur under the testing circumstance.

[ravenwoodglass]

"With a general this is more cut and dry... patient is concious .. small wait patient is unconcious and the patient has the right to say NO right up to going under.

In the case of amnesiacs the patient may experience a bad trip and say NO.... they may wish to end the procedure and they are still concious. "

Good point. Once doctors start they don't stop. I'm glad I always insisted on the general.

[gfp]

"With a general this is more cut and dry... patient is concious .. small wait patient is unconcious and the patient has the right to say NO right up to going under.

In the case of amnesiacs the patient may experience a bad trip and say NO.... they may wish to end the procedure and they are still concious. "

Good point. Once doctors start they don't stop. I'm glad I always insisted on the general.

worse still you are not going to remember saying no.....

I had my stomach biopsy on local only (just a spray on my throat) and the whole thing was pretty horrid...

Old style endoscope with fibre optic not TV.... but I didn't get an option for general (insurance) and didn't want amnesiac.

At least if I had insisted he stop he would have had to rather than knowing I wouldn't remember after!

[penguin]

Well they are readily available on the black market if you like em so much....

Half joking... If Im going to get all drugged out then I'd rather have a more traditional anaesthetic who's effects are well known for thousands of years..

I didn't mean in the fratboy punch

There are plenty of fun drugs out on the black market, Versed is just one of them. Hell, there was a big to-do about people overdosing by putting on too many fentanyl patches, that they were obtaining illegally anyway. Idiots.

[Lymetoo]

I remember when I had my colonoscopy, the dr said not to worry because I won't say anything revealing or out of the realm of ordinary conversation. [wish I could remember exactly how he worded it!] I knew he was just easing my mind and probably lying to me!!!!!

BUT....my next colonoscopy will be done the same way!

[CarlaB]

I didn't have a problem with the drugs used. I understand, too, what someone said about repressed memories and how painful it is when they come back ... I had this experience, and it's tough. I don't think it would be the same though if I started remembering my endoscopy. I don't think it was so painful that I was yelling and screaming ... I'm of the opinion it is to make us more relaxed for the procedure. That being said, I'm with Chelsea, my husband was the only one who would be capable of remembering what the doctor said. I tried to call the doctor, he wouldn't talk to me except through the lady in the office, which got rather tedious, so I gave up on him and never went back, thus, Enterolab. I also hope I didn't give out my mother's maiden name and my bank account numbers

Date rape drugs are a real problem. My dad owns a nightclub, and the bouncer at the door will start quizzing a woman on whether she knows the guy she is with or not, if she met him before tonight, and if she wants to be with him. The staff also gets on women for leaving their drinks unattended -- they say to leave a napkin on top of it with a marking, if it's moved when you come back, get a fresh drink. I don't know if all bars are on top of this situation like Dad's is, but I know single women feel very safe in that bar. At the same time, the manager will get on my case if I don't use the employee rest room and if I dance, security is watching me (unless I'm dancing with Adam). I'm WAY too safe there!!

[rinne]

This topic is timely, I am scheduled for an endoscopy and colonoscopy in a few weeks. Thanks for the information.

[Jestgar]

My dad owns a nightclub, and the bouncer at the door will start quizzing a woman on whether she knows the guy she is with or not, if she met him before tonight, and if she wants to be with him. The staff also gets on women for leaving their drinks unattended -- they say to leave a napkin on top of it with a marking, if it's moved when you come back, get a fresh drink.

I know single women feel very safe in that bar.

Wow!! Yay for your Dad!!

[gfp]

This topic is timely, I am scheduled for an endoscopy and colonoscopy in a few weeks. Thanks for the information.

Not sure we have any yet!

I just think memories are something you don't mess with and worry that like with LSD these memories might come flooding back years later. I'm also pretty worried when a pro-recreational drug site lists something as

Unpracticed trippers may be overpowered by the awesome revelations of Ketamine and may be somewhat overwhelmed, although in general fear seems to be unable to compound here (such as in an LSD trip or with other drug paranoias) and will probably be only episodic. Food should not be consumed within an hour and one-half before the trip, and should be avoided for longer periods of time if possible. A peculiar sort of loneliness can occur over the line, so it is a good idea to stay in close quarters with people you are close with, and best to have a sober monitor or experienced Ketter at hand.

Setting is agreed to be crucial. Most agree that Ketamin not be used by inexperienced trippers unless they want a complete out-of-body experience that is sure to change their life.

[mouse]

About 50 years ago, I had a tube shoved down my throat so that the doctor could look into my lungs. He said that I would remember nothing and would not feel a thing. I was about 13 years old. I can describe the room, where the doctor stood and where the nurse was. It was a horrible expierence as I felt everything. After it was all over and I came "awake", he asked me how I felt and I told him every word he said to his nurse. He was horrified that I had suffered so much. When he had to do the procedure again, he used something else and I felt nothing. Six years ago, when I had the rare pneumonia, they went to stick that darn tube again into my lungs and I tried to explain to this "god" doctor about what happens and he blew me off. He said things had changed since then and that I would feel and remember nothing. A couple minutes later they were working on my heart and I ended up in cardiac intensive care for a week and a half. And I certainly remember everything about that expierience. I personally will never trust that type of drug again.

[Katie O'Rourke]

hiya. just wanted to say that i had both an endoscopy (gastroscopy) and sigmoidoscopy (the gastro first then the sigmoid about 5 minutes later), and i had both without any drugs at all, including amnesiacs. i was only 19 at the time, and after reading what you put about teenagers and having hallucinations i am really glad i didnt have it. that is sooo scary. i never even knew it was ketamine that they used. very worrying. however, some part of me does wish i dotn remember the gastroscopy - after that i wasnt that bothered about the other one as long as i didnt see the screen as that was gross. gastroscopy was horrible though i started havign a panic attack as soon as they sprayed that stuff on my throat cos i tought i coudlnt breathe properly, and then they offered me the "sedative" yet again which made me panic even more as i am really terrified of needles - thats the whole reason i said no to it in the first place. from then on, i had to watch my hands as i didnt trust them not to try anything while i was distracted. was horrible though i was throwing up loads of stomach acid, and when the dr did the biopsies he whipped the wire up really quick, and the motion is really not good on your gag reflex.

though i could understand the dr afterwards all he said was yes so ill write to you when we get the results back. really informative.

however, my dad had gastroscopy with same gastroenterologist about 15 years before i did and was diagnosed with coeliac, but he opted for the drug and my mum said he was still gagging loads and didnt remember anything for the rest of the day and was totally out of it. doesnt sound too smart to me, but thats just my opnion...