Rat Poison Verses Gluten

[neesee]

I've seen it it written here and there that some compare eating gluten to eating rat poison. I've also seen it written that 1 in 133 people have celiac.

Now, suppose we take 266 people and do an experiment. Lets say we feed 133 of them gluten. How many would get sick? Theoretically.1 should get sick.

Now suppose we feed rat poison to the other 133 people. How many of these people do you suppose will get sick out of this group? Hmmmmmm?

I don't really believe it's a proper analogy between the two. Gluten is only harmful to celiacs, not to the non-celiac majority.

Gluten is not toxic poison to the majority of the world.

Denise

[Ursa Major]

Actually, many celiac researchers are saying now that about 80% of the North American population is gluten intolerant. And that 33% of the population has celiac disease, with most being undiagnosed.

Meaning that to the majority of the population, gluten is poison. Most just don't know it, and many wouldn't want to know, either, because they like gluteny foods too much.

Some people here use the analogy to rat poison only to illustrate to people who say about gluten "Oh, a little can't hurt you, right?", that yes, to a person with celiac disease, a little bit of gluten is poison. Just like for most people, a little bit of rat poison is harmful. They are not saying that gluten is as poisonous to EVERYBODY as rat poison (even though its pretty close to the truth after all).

So, it appears that you are misunderstanding what is being said.

[Tim-n-VA]

I see the point and it really depends on the audience. There are some people who, if you make that comparison, will dismiss everything you say because you've lost credibility. Even accepting the higher percentages of people who have some intolerance to gluten, is a very rare person that will die from a single ingestion of gluten. Many on this board will feel like they are dying or want to die but that is not the same. You can't say the same about rat poison (caveats about lethal dosage, etc. apply).

I don't think we serve the cause of educating the general public about the problems with gluten very well by making such comparisons.

[home-based-mom]

This is funny. Instead of "rat poison" I like to use "dog poop."

You don't eat it.

You don't touch it.

You don't eat anything that has touched it.

You don't eat anything that it has touched.

You don't eat with or cook with anything that has touched it.

Etc. You get the idea.

Dog poop has that ick and eeuwwww factor that people can relate to.

[neesee]

This is funny. Instead of "rat poison" I like to use "dog poop."

You don't eat it.

You don't touch it.

You don't eat anything that has touched it.

You don't eat anything that it has touched.

You don't eat with or cook with anything that has touched it.

Etc. You get the idea.

Dog poop has that ick and eeuwwww factor that people can relate to.

[/quote

This is really good!

I like your analogy well enough to possibly share it with my young grandson if the occasion arises. This one won't frighten him!

Gluten isn't powerful at all. It's just food for those who can tolerate it!

Denise

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Neesee, I think you've misunderstood. The analogy to rat poison isn't suggesting that the rest of the world will get if they eat gluten. But many, many celiac sufferers are terribly sick for days, even weeks, even from a small amount of gluten. To them, it is literally a poison, and for them to knowingly eat "just a little bit" is the same as their consuming rat poison.

I am not one of those--but I totally understand the analogy.

[Ken70]

That was me that made the analogy. Your point is valid but I stand by the analogy. I didn't say gluten was rat poison to everybody just those that are gluten intolerant. I've struggled with clever ways to describe gluten intolerance to people. It's hard. Think about how you felt when someone first told you that bread might make you sick. Impossible to believe but ultimately true. Dog poop is a good analogy as is a virus. Any others?

[jerseyangel]

When I explain cross contamination to someone, I use salmonella as an example.

[neesee]

Neesee, I think you've misunderstood. The analogy to rat poison isn't suggesting that the rest of the world will get if they eat gluten. But many, many celiac sufferers are terribly sick for days, even weeks, even from a small amount of gluten. To them, it is literally a poison, and for them to knowingly eat "just a little bit" is the same as their consuming rat poison.

I am not one of those--but I totally understand the analogy.

Fiddle-faddle, I not stupid and I'm not misunderstanding anything at all. I just don't agree with refering to gluten as poison.

Say I tell my grandson that gluten is poison and grandpa is sitting at the table eating a sandwich or maybe even pizza! How do you suppose he will feel about this? It isn't good for him to hear things like that. I don't believe it's a good idea to put that kind of fear in him or in others who may not understand what you really mean.

I actually do get sick if I eat gluten. You can't have classic celiac and not react. I brush it aside and make sure I do better so it won't happen again. I've been at this for so long now I sometimes forget how tramatic it was for me in the beginning. My attitude about the situation is pretty good at his point. I don't give it a whole lot of thought anymore. It just kind of comes naturally to me now. I no longer worry about the diet. My memories of eating any other way are pretty dim at this point. I'm comfortable! I hope someday you all will be too. But not so comfortable you are careless of course.

Denise

[blueeyedmanda]

Fiddle-faddle, I not stupid and I'm not misunderstanding anything at all. I just don't agree with refering to gluten as poison.

Say I tell my grandson that gluten is poison and grandpa is sitting at the table eating a sandwich or maybe even pizza! How do you suppose he will feel about this? It isn't good for him to hear things like that. I don't believe it's a good idea to put that kind of fear in him or in others who may not understand what you really mean.

I actually do get sick if I eat gluten. You can't have classic celiac and not react. I brush it aside and make sure I do better so it won't happen again. I've been at this for so long now I sometimes forget how tramatic it was for me in the beginning. My attitude about the situation is pretty good at his point. I don't give it a whole lot of thought anymore. It just kind of comes naturally to me now. I no longer worry about the diet. My memories of eating any other way are pretty dim at this point. I'm comfortable! I hope someday you all will be too. But not so comfortable you are careless of course.

Denise

I don't think Fiddle-Faddle was saying you were stupid, she was bringing up a very good point. Many celiac's do not have the common outward signs of glutenings such as the GI symptoms. Some people just have other symptoms that can be passed off as a million other things. It can be referred to as poision in a way that people will understand.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

I actually do get sick if I eat gluten. You can't have classic celiac and not react.

Denise

Actually, you can if your celiac presents primarily as DH. There are also biopsy-diagnosed celiacs who have no apparent intestinal symptoms; in most cases, they were scoped due to an otherwise puzzling vitamin deficiency.

[Lisa]

I don't think that we need to have a general consensus as to what we call gluten. Does it really matter?

neesee, I would assume that you refer to gluten in a manner that your grandson could understand and most likely "rat poison" would be a little severe. How you choose to make reference, is your business. How others choose, would be their choice.

I would hate to see an insignificant topic become and unfriendly issue.

[neesee]

I don't think that we need to have a general consensus as to what we call gluten. Does it really matter?

neesee, I would assume that you refer to gluten in a manner that your grandson could understand and most likely "rat poison" would be a little severe. How you choose to make reference, is your business. How others choose, would be their choice.

I would hate to see an insignificant topic become and unfriendly issue.

No, it doesn't really matter to me how you refer to gluten.

I'll admit it I'm stumped Expressing myself through my writing has never been one of my strengths. Put my flute in my hands and i'm good to go. I'm a musician not a writer. I'm sorry. I'm crying. I know you don't want me here. I just wanted to help the newbies to cope without so much anger.

Dh fed me those lines yesterday because I was crying then too.

sorry

neesee

[Lisa]

neesee,

I am sorry that you are upset. As you well know, the Internet has no way to convey emotions and intent. That is why it is so hard sometimes to get your point across. We, at this site, have these dumb little emotion faces that help us convey our intent.

You have twenty years experience to share with others and that is very important. There are many, many people who frequent this site that do not have Celiac, but have issues related to gluten. We consider every one the same regarding need.

Use your own words and join our community. We can all teach each other something.

[Ursa Major]

Denise, it is too bad you are upset. But you really need to try to be less abrasive. I have gone and read all your posts to date. And a lot of them would have made quite a few people upset, as they come across as insults, and as goading people into fights, and yes, they sound angry much of the time.

It appears that this is not intended by you. It might be good for you to review your posts carefully before you actually hit the 'add reply' or 'post' button, and looking at it from the point of view of the other people reading it. You might find that you then need to change your wording at times, to sound a little friendlier.

I see that we are nearly the same age. I am sure we have a lot in common. I also have to be very careful about my wording to not come across as abrasive and pushy. I think I manage to succeed most of the time now.

Now that you say that you are a musician, that is a clue. You may want to look into Asperger Syndrome.

And personally, nobody is saying that gluten is poison. When I use that word with my family, I emphasize that it is poison to ME. And it is at that. But I still also maintain that it really is bad for everybody.

No, it doesn't really matter to me how you refer to gluten.

I'll admit it I'm stumped Expressing myself through my writing has never been one of my strengths. Put my flute in my hands and i'm good to go. I'm a musician not a writer. I'm sorry. I'm crying. I know you don't want me here. I just wanted to help the newbies to cope without so much anger.

Dh fed me those lines yesterday because I was crying then too.

sorry

neesee

[dandelionmom]

I just wanted to help the newbies to cope without so much anger.

I think it is normal and healthy to have a little anger when you're first dealing with this kind of major life change. Just my opinion!

[Ursa Major]

I agree. The stages of grieving usually are denial, anger, and last acceptance. And that is what is happening with most people diagnosed with celiac disease (or any other major illness or forced life change).

I think it is normal and healthy to have a little anger when you're first dealing with this kind of major life change. Just my opinion!

[Phyllis28]

My memories of eating any other way are pretty dim at this point. I'm comfortable!

Denise

Like you my memories of eating anyway other than gluten free are very very dim after 29 years. I am not even sure there is a light anymore.

[neesee]

Ursula.... I tried to send you a pm. I hope it went through. I don't think I could type it out again. It's long.

To all the rest of you, No, I'm not a troll, or at least that was not my intention. I do have scars from my celiac disease. I lost my ability to socialize because of my severe diarrhea. This is why I feel I could use a support group too.

I would love to explain my celiac to all of you, but my typing skills are as poor as my writing skills

I was end stage when I was diagnosed and a had a very long and difficult recovery. I now have horrible high pressure and I currently take diovan and toprol for it. The toprol is new and it's not agreeing with me. It make me moody weepy and sad.Last night even with my meds it spiked to 160 over 118. It's very uncomfortable for me. My neck feels like it could explode when it's this high. It kinda scares me.

neesee

[ravenwoodglass]

I was end stage when I was diagnosed and a had a very long and difficult recovery. I now have horrible high pressure and I currently take diovan and toprol for it. The toprol is new and it's not agreeing with me. It make me moody weepy and sad.Last night even with my meds it spiked to 160 over 118. It's very uncomfortable for me. My neck feels like it could explode when it's this high. It kinda scares me.

neesee

Neesee, I wondered if something like this might be going on. I have checked, as I am sure you already had and both of these meds appear to be gluten-free. However there were a couple of celiacs who had questioned it's statis due to some of the side effects. Have you been able to speak to your doctor about this reaction? Perhaps he might be able to prescribe something else that would work but not be quite so nasty with reactions. Many don't realize the impact celiac can have on moods and thinking but most of here do and we can be quite understanding. If no other med is available adding a sublingual B12 to your vitamins, if you don't already, may help with some of the neuro effects.

I don't think anyone thinks you are a troll, and you are very welcome here. We all struggle, I like you suffered to the point where I was close to death before celiac was finally found. It is hard and even for those of us that have been doing this long term there is always more to learn and it seems more to deal with. You will find many different outlooks, differences in diagnosis methods and differing amounts of difficulty adjusting and sensitivity levels. There is so much to learn about this disease and everyone here has value. I hope you are feeling better soon.

[Glutenfreefamily]

neesee- Im sorry your having a hard time expressing yourself. Im having a difficult time too lately with my personal life especially financially so Im a bit grouchy and sensitive lately and I hope I didnt hurt your feelings, Im sorry if I did. Im sorry you feel that no one wants you here because I feel you have a lot to offer this board with your experience. Stick around there are many people here who are very knowledgeable from all walks of life just try and be open to people's feelings.

We all come at this in different stages as others have posted here and many people come here and diet gluten free for various reasons. Im thankful I didnt have classic celiac (never tested even though my uncle had it so I might have had villi damage but I did have elevated antibodies) since I cant imagine what I would have been like if I did. I have many autoimmune disorders from the damage that no one picked up till I figured it out for myself.

Gluten intolerance can be just as bad as celiac disease, Im losing my vision and my hearing due to my years of misdiagnosis and Im 35 and a mom to a 3 year old. I need my vision and my hearing to raise my daughter still and I hope they hold out. Im not wanting a pity party here just explaining how we all have our different trials in life due to this.

Take Care

[CMCM]

Well, for what it's worth, maybe the poison analogy isn't all that far off course. I remember reading that if you take some human tissue....anyone's tissue, not just a celiac's, and put gluten in the dish with it, the gluten appears to attack the tissue and destroy it.

[neesee]

Being grouchy is not acceptable......even if I'm not feeling well!

Thanks to all of you for your patience.

neesee

[psawyer]

Being grouchy is not acceptable......even if I'm not feeling well!

Thanks to all of you for your patience.

neesee

[ravenwoodglass]

Well, for what it's worth, maybe the poison analogy isn't all that far off course. I remember reading that if you take some human tissue....anyone's tissue, not just a celiac's, and put gluten in the dish with it, the gluten appears to attack the tissue and destroy it.

Interesting, I would love to see a link to that, like I need more fuel to push gluten-free on folks!!!

I sometimes make the comparison because in ways a low level poisoning acts the same way. If you look back through history there have been many times humans have used poisonous substances for mundane uses and ended up being made very ill and eventually dieing. Arsenic in makeup is a good example of that.

Lets that the rat poison scenerio, a large dose of it will of course kill you quickly, not the reaction that is referenced here. But in small doses the offending substance will make you feel awful but not kill you. If you continue to injest small amounts over time eventually enough is going to build up to cause more and more serious illness. If the toxin is injested for long enough eventually it is going to get to a high enough level to cause serious illness or even death, either as a direct result of the poison or as a result of the bodies trying to fight it off. Looked at in that way I think the comparison is not that far off for celiac folks.