What About The Eucharist?

[Camille'sBigSister]

Similar changes have accompanied the switch from a hunter-gatherer economy to an agricultural one in North America, where the switch was to corn. Archeologists attribute the immediate decline in health to general malnutrition resulting from a diet seriously lacking in in nutrition.

I'm a little confused here. Were the archeologists talking about Native Americans? They were the only hunter-gatherers in North America, because the settlers were already an agricultural society before they ever arrived on this continent. But not only were the Native Americans hunter-gatherers, they also cultivated corn, beans, and squash - the Three Sisters - and had done so for centuries.

If the archeologists "attribute the immediate decline in health to general malnutrition resulting from a diet seriously lacking in nutrition," then I suggest that they omitted to take into account a historical fact: The Europeans methodically set out to obliterate the entire population of natives by starving them to death. They consistently burned the crops, storehouses, and villages of Native Americans, forcing them to flee ever westward in search of a place where they could hunt, gather, and plant their crops in peace. How could these starving people possibly have escaped malnutrition?

When Native Americans finally did become, for the most part, an agricultural society, where did they farm? On the worst land on this continent! I propose that it was not the farming that led to the decline in their health; it was, rather, the lack of nutrients in the poorest of soils.

If I'm way off base here, then I'll stand corrected.

Cissie

[Guest southgoingzax]

Cissie,

When I am talking about the archaeological record, I am talking about +/- 10,000 years ago. Although the actual dates are up in the air, it is estimated that people first made it to North and South America between 20,000 and 15,000 years ago. So the first Native Americans were hunter-gatherers. The archaeological record in Europe, Asia, and Africa is of course, much older. Hunter-gatherer populations of anatomically modern humans were present in Northern Europe at least 40,000 b.p. and in southern Europe by about 90,000 b.p.

Back to the Native American issue, all of the original populace of N and S America were hunter-gatherer, until a little later than their contemporaries in Europe - with lower population densities, they had no reason to turn to a predominantly agricultural society. That doesn't mean they didn't eat grains or conduct some sort of agricultural practice, just that these efforts tended to be sporadic and did not include a shift to a sedentary society. We can see smaller stature, dental cavities, disease, and malnutrition show up in the archaeological record around 2000 years ago - long before European settlers ever began systematic distruction of the Native populations. This archaeological evidence of malnutrition is syncopated with the development of agriculture in some areas of the South and North American continents and the development of maze as a domestic crop.

Not all Native American populations became agriculturalists - many continued hunting and gathering until the arrival of Europeans.

Everything that happened after Columbus...I'm not disputing that. There was a systematic attempt to wipe the indigenous populations out, and the settlers were pretty successful. Certainly malnutrition and disease ocurred as a result of the ways they were treated and forced into non-sustainable lands. But the shift to agriculture and the subsequent malnutrition issues ocurred before white people ever came here.

zax

[Camille'sBigSister]

Zax, thanks for the information! We're way off-topic, but your subject matter is fascinating. I wasn't thinking that far back, but even if I had been, I didn't know about the decline in health of native populations so long ago. Glad you explained.

My favorite paleos are the Neanderthals. I like to think that they survived by mating with our ancestors, ridiculous as that might seem to you.

Have you read The Little Ice Age, and Floods, Famines and Emporers? Interesting books.

Since I'm a protestant, not a catholic, I'll butt out of this string. Bye!

Cissie

[jayhawkmom]

S To "receive" the Pukearist, you were supposed to

Wow, was that really necessary?

I'm trying to read these posts, and do it with an open mind - but that really was uncalled for. I am sorry that you had such a terrible religious upbringing. Not all of us did. My faith is a beautiful thing to me, and I don't criticize or condemn anyone else's beliefs. It makes me feel very sad when others can't be respectful of mine.

ETA: We always have more than one chalice. In fact, we usually have 3. 3 Eucharist ministers in addition to the priest, to distribute the win - and 2 additional to distribute the host.

[Guest southgoingzax]

Zax, thanks for the information! We're way off-topic, but your subject matter is fascinating. I wasn't thinking that far back, but even if I had been, I didn't know about the decline in health of native populations so long ago. Glad you explained.

My favorite paleos are the Neanderthals. I like to think that they survived by mating with our ancestors, ridiculous as that might seem to you.

Have you read The Little Ice Age, and Floods, Famines and Emporers? Interesting books.

Since I'm a protestant, not a catholic, I'll butt out of this string. Bye!

Cissie

I know, we're WAY off topic. But I like neanderthals too. And, I don't think your idea is ridiculous at all - in fact, a lot of paleoanthropologists see neanderthals as homosapiens with traits that arose from geographic and genetic isolation in the ice-age environment of Europe. They were much stronger physically (larger muscle attachments) and seem to have a lot of cold-weather adaptations. They had bigger brains than modern humans, too!

I haven't checked out those particular books, thanks for the info, and I'll stop posting information irrelevant to this thread!

zax

[Canadian Karen]

Wow, was that really necessary?

I'm trying to read these posts, and do it with an open mind - but that really was uncalled for. I am sorry that you had such a terrible religious upbringing. Not all of us did. My faith is a beautiful thing to me, and I don't criticize or condemn anyone else's beliefs. It makes me feel very sad when others can't be respectful of mine.

ETA: We always have more than one chalice. In fact, we usually have 3. 3 Eucharist ministers in addition to the priest, to distribute the win - and 2 additional to distribute the host.

I have to agree with you, Jayhawkmom,

It would be the equivalent of me calling a Barmitsvah a "Barfmitsvah" just because I don't like that religion? Sorry, I agree it was uncalled for......

Karen

[mamaw]

Canadian Karen

I too feel such bitterness in this thread. I do believe everyone has the right of feedom of speech not everyone is going to agree or disagree. Plus when I don't care for a post I usually don't read it but this has made me very sad as I believe in my Lord & Saviour. I would have fallen by the way side years ago had I not had a belief. I alway tell people that if you don't seek or find God he will find you at some point in time. I do agree without him it is a sad world for non-believers but that's their personal choice.

Maybe it's time just to close this out ........

blessings to all

mamaw

[Guest southgoingzax]

Okay,

I am going to jump in again in Bernice's defense - not that she needs me to, but because, heck, I guess I like abuse. First, I believe every effort has been made by us "non-believers" to drop this discussion, as it is off-topic from the original thread (but here I am again!). Second, if you had read all of Bernice's posts, you would have seen that she was referring to the eucharist as the pukerist because of her childhood experiences getting sick and seeing many other children get sick following the whole fasting/wafer/wine thing. She isn't calling it that to be rude, it is based on her own experience with the ritual. And finally, couldn't it be construed as rude to refer to my existence, as a "non-believer" as "sad"? I certainly don't see it that way, and would never consider referring to a religious person's way of life as "sad". We all take different paths. I happen to think they are all worthy ones. There's no need to continue to dwell on "attacks" on personal beliefs - no one is attacking anything, just sharing their opinions and experiences.

zax

[Guest BERNESES]

I think it would be best if we just put this thread to rest. Let's all just let it go.

[bbuster]

I'm Catholic and I can't have a gluten free wager b/c the Catholic church doesn't accept it. I also do not drink the wine. It comes in a communal cup and people stand and wipe the rim of the cup off after you use it but still once people receive the communion wafer, then they go to receive wine, they contaminate the wine in the cup. So I just stay in my bench. I think its ridiculous that the Catholic church can't have a gluten-free wafer substituted for a regular one.

I am brand new to this board and also Catholic. My son (now 12) was diagnosed with Celiac last year.

We talked to the priest where he attends school, and also our parish priest about it. Both priests said that if I wanted to supply my own gluten free host, they would have no problem with that.

Our parish priest said they could provide the low gluten hosts for us. We attend a large parish. The gluten free host is on top of the stack, but below the large presider host. The priest takes the gluten free host off the platen and sets it on the altar cloth. Then he consecrates the hosts, and divides the hosts onto several platens, and finally puts the gluten free host back on top. My son sits near the front and always goes directly to the priest to get "his" host. There are two other Celiac parishioners whom I do not know who do the same thing.

We do essentially the same thing at my son's Catholic school.

I debated long and hard about this approach, but just last week my son had his first negative tTG blood test in the year and a half we have been at this.

When we travel to my mother's home town, I bring a host (small church and we know everyone). Otherwise my son does not receive because he hates the wine.

[BBadgero]

This thread was started out by someone asking how they deal with taking (or not taking) the Eucharist. I don't believe the original poster was asking for some deep complicated argument on the theology of religion. There are plenty of religious forums out there if one wishes to partake in a debate of that sort.

I think we all need to remember the original poster's question had to do with gluten in the Eucharist - let's keep it on track and resist the urge to hijack this thread and turn it into something that does not belong here......

I am Catholic, a US citizen, a human, and a Celiac (share a lot in common with all of you, and not as much with some), and don't need to say anymore than thank you to Raven, CarlaB, and Canadian Karen - keeping an open mind and steering this forum back to helping us all deal with our common ailment is appreciated.

[debmidge]

"I debated long and hard about this approach, but just last week my son had his first negative tTG blood test in the year and a half we have been at this."

This is something to be celebrated. Great news!!

[tiredofdoctors]

Debbie -- with all you have been through, all I can say is Hallelujah!! I am so happy for you my heart is light. You must feel as though a HUGE boulder has been lifted off your shoulders. Please do something for YOU to celebrate!!!! Love, Lynne

[debmidge]

sorry for misapplication of the quote device. I was quoting bbuster about her son. sorry about that Lynn. My quoting error.

Deb

[toothpicker]

Has anyone had any probs w/taking communion. I asked my pastor and he said to just refuse the wafer, but take the wine and I would "still be covered". My husband asked if we provided the wheat free wafers (they do exist), would he use them for those of us in his flock w/Celiac (there is at least 1 other that I know of). He said it would be too much trouble. Maybe it's just me, but if he feels that I'm still "covered" w/o actually taking communion, then why does he do it at all! My husband is very upset..... I'm just trying to cope w/ all the dietary/lifestyle changes, but this one stumps me. Any feedback?

[CarlaB]

Has anyone had any probs w/taking communion. I asked my pastor and he said to just refuse the wafer, but take the wine and I would "still be covered". My husband asked if we provided the wheat free wafers (they do exist), would he use them for those of us in his flock w/Celiac (there is at least 1 other that I know of). He said it would be too much trouble. Maybe it's just me, but if he feels that I'm still "covered" w/o actually taking communion, then why does he do it at all! My husband is very upset..... I'm just trying to cope w/ all the dietary/lifestyle changes, but this one stumps me. Any feedback?

If you're Catholic, we believe that the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is present under both the Bread and Wine. Therefore, you can take either (many parishes only distribute the Host in fact), and receive Communion.

There are no gluten-free wafers that are accepted by the Church as valid. Christ used wheat, so they are to be made of wheat. There are low-gluten wafers available, but I can see how a priest would refuse to make them available at a large mass as the logistics would be difficult. If you were not receiving the wholeness of Communion through the wine, then I'm sure it would be a different story.

I personally just receive the cup.

[thenamesbabe]

in hopes of helping someone....i'll share what i do.

I'm a very strong christian and we have the Lord's supper every sunday and I PERSONALLY feel that I am take recieve it. SO WITH MY OWN PERSONAL BELIEF I had to come up with a way to take the bread. We don't bless the bread some other religions do so that wasn't a problem, we have it all in our hearts alone. We pray before it is served and then in our hearts as we recieve it. Well what i do is take the individual given cup of "wine" which is really grape juice and then when the plate of "bread" comes around I just hand the plate to the next person and I take my own that I brought.

I still feel that mine is just as special as the other and I know that God knows what is in my heart and that's what matters at that moment.

Now i would rather someone not attack me on what i believe, that's not what i am looking for. I didn't know what religion everyone was so if someone has the lord's supper given like we do i wanted to share how i do it.

babe

[swittenauer]

I think it would be best if we just put this thread to rest. Let's all just let it go.

I agree. I work for the Catholic Church & I am going to have to stay out of this one. Sometimes threads turn into debates not info exchange.

[happygirl]

babe-there are many celiacs on the board here who practice some 'variation' of what you do! For those that it is an option, it seems to work well as long as we are careful about cross contamination (i.e., drinking out of glasses not the big wine that might have been dipped in). I'm happy you have found a method that works for you!!!

[CarlaB]

I agree. I work for the Catholic Church & I am going to have to stay out of this one. Sometimes threads turn into debates not info exchange.

You are right, this thread was quite the debate. Maybe in the future if someone comes across this old thread, they can start a new one so the genuine questions don't stir up an old debate.

[CeliacStinksKLS]

I bring Gluten Free Crackers to my church, because myself and a few others have Celiac. Ask your pastor.

KLS

[Lymetoo]

Hi Sierra.....Welcome! I would think you could have a private conversation with the priest in whatever church you visit. Shouldn't be a problem to only receive the wine. I'm not Catholic, but in our church it would not be a problem at all.

I've had communion twice now since being dxd, and it's working out fine. I just take my own morsel of gluten-free bread or cracker to the front and when the minister says 'The body of Christ given for you'...I partake.

Gayle

To those arguing religion.....there's "religion" and there's "a personal relationship with Jesus" [or God]....Two different things. No one can say that my personal relationship is there to manipulate others.

[Queen Serenity]

Hi, all!

I'm a Catholic, and believe me, no matter what parish you belong too, the pastor cannot give his blessing with the use of the gluten free host. As someone stated earlier in the thread, the host was made of wheat bread. It's set in stone. I haven't been able to receive since September 1995. As far as the wine is concerned, every parish chooses different kinds of it. They don't use universal brands. I learnes this, when I became involved in my old parish. So, naturally, I don't even accept this. It's a sad set of circumstances, that the Pope cannot understand this concept. Gluten intolerence is a major issue. We cannot just sway even a little without hurting ourselves. I really don't think it would matter to God, if we had a host that could be concecrated just as the regular one. Maybe some day the Pope will wake up! Who knows what the future will bring.

Vicki

Gluten free since 1995

[Katie618]

i'm catholic, and i dont take communion or the wine because my priests but a piece of the hose into the chalice, and i rather not deal with cc issues. i dont know about anyone else... but i dont feel apart of the mass anymore because i do not take eucharist and my priests make a big deal about how the eucharist is the main part of mass and taking eucharist makes us a part of the mass. i heard ener-g makes gluten free hosts, but you have to see with your priests/pastors/etc if it is ok if you can use your own host.

[CarlaB]

i'm catholic, and i dont take communion or the wine because my priests but a piece of the hose into the chalice, and i rather not deal with cc issues. i dont know about anyone else... but i dont feel apart of the mass anymore because i do not take eucharist and my priests make a big deal about how the eucharist is the main part of mass and taking eucharist makes us a part of the mass. i heard ener-g makes gluten free hosts, but you have to see with your priests/pastors/etc if it is ok if you can use your own host.

Katie, at our parish, there are many chalices on Sundays that don't have a piece of the host in them. When I'm at a Mass where there is only one chalice, which has a piece of the Host in it, I ask the priest to consecrate wine in a separate chalice with no Host. I've never had one refuse me yet. I bought my own small chalice so that if the Church doesn't have a small one, they don't have to use a second large chalice. Since we believe the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is present under both the bread and the wine, it's okay to just receive the wine.