Protien And Workout Supps

[tp23]

Anyone had good luck muscle building with any Gluten-free protien supp's? Has anyone gotten a response from the major protien powder companies--- if they contain gluten?

any names fellow Celiacs?

[super-sally888]

Hi,

I haven't actually used any protein supplement recently, so I can't answer your question. But can I ask why you want to use protein?

Even body builders only need about 2 g of protein / kg of body weight. Any excess will only be wasted. Most people can get all the protein they need from eating meat, eggs, nuts, and other real foods.

As a guideline (though I am triathlete - which is an endurance, not a power sport) following are guidelines for protein, carbs and fat guidelines, which we look at:-

Carbohydrate : 6 to 10 g/kg body weight per day

Fat : Fat intake should not be restricted: 20

[gfp]

Hi,

I haven't actually used any protein supplement recently, so I can't answer your question. But can I ask why you want to use protein?

Even body builders only need about 2 g of protein / kg of body weight. Any excess will only be wasted. Most people can get all the protein they need from eating meat, eggs, nuts, and other real foods.

As a guideline (though I am triathlete - which is an endurance, not a power sport) following are guidelines for protein, carbs and fat guidelines, which we look at:-

Carbohydrate : 6 to 10 g/kg body weight per day

Fat : Fat intake should not be restricted: 20

[CarlaB]

Lifting weights is good for the bones and preventing osteoporosis. I wouldn't call myself a bodybuilder, but I am a weight lifter. I think the benefits of weight bearing exercise are especially good for the gluten intolerant to avoid osteoporosis.

I eat protein with each meal and right after a workout. I agree with the previous posters that it is best to get the protein from your diet. I try to focus on protein and veggies, but I have to have some starchy carbs to feel right, otherwise I get nauseous.

I also have to disagree with gfp (sorry, Steve, but good to see you again) that it is not a healthy sport. Most bodybuilders incorporate cardio into their regimen. Also, they are more aware of their diet than the typical person (avoiding junk food). My dad had his prostate out last year and the doctor thought his age on the chart was wrong. My dad was 69 at the time and the doctor thought he was 59. The doctor also said his bones were as strong as someone 20 years younger than him. He's been a weight lifter since he was 15.

Personally, I think Arnold looks very good for his age, much younger than he is, and very healthy.

I'm sure there are gluten-free protein shakes out there, but I would be concerned about developing another food intolerance (to soy or casein), like gfp mentioned. I don't think there's a shake out there that doesn't have either of those. I wonder if you could add nuts to a fruit smoothie and get the effect of a shake? If you put the nuts in the blender with a little water, they will make a "milk". Then strain it and use it for your shake. I don't know if that's enough protein. I'd rather eat a steak!

[hathor]

A different perspective on protein and other dietary needs for athletes:

Open Original Shared Link

The idea that plant proteins are incomplete or lacking in quality, while oft-repeated, is untrue. An exploration of the history of protein recommendations, the studies and observations they were based on, etc.:

Open Original Shared Link

Also see The China Study, which found that disease prevalence in China is in proportion to the amount of animal products consumed, the studies by Ornish and Esselstyn on heart disease, by Barnard on diabetes, etc. Lower in quality in what sense, I wonder? The idea that one needs to carefully match plant foods to get "complete" protein has been discredited, but continues to get repeated by folks who haven't explored the actual research -- even by some vegetarians! Sigh ... I can hardly blame anyone here for repeating what they've heard; I just wanted to provide the rebuttal.

Anyway, there are dangers from consuming excess protein:

Open Original Shared Link

There is no "protein deficiency" disease out there among vegetarians.

You build muscle by eating sufficient calories and working your muscles. I am unaware of any study showing that protein powders have any beneficial effect beyond providing additional calories.

[gfp]

I also have to disagree with gfp (sorry, Steve, but good to see you again) that it is not a healthy sport. Most bodybuilders incorporate cardio into their regimen. Also, they are more aware of their diet than the typical person (avoiding junk food). My dad had his prostate out last year and the doctor thought his age on the chart was wrong. My dad was 69 at the time and the doctor thought he was 59. The doctor also said his bones were as strong as someone 20 years younger than him. He's been a weight lifter since he was 15.

Personally, I think Arnold looks very good for his age, much younger than he is, and very healthy.

I'm not saying its not healthy, I just said compared to some other sports

Ahem, boxers do a lot of CV work too, probably more than any other sport except cycling but getting repeatedly hit in the head isn't good for you

The governator looks great... no arguament but then he also freely admits to taking a lof of recreational drugs and I'm sure if you can get him off record he'd admit to taking steroids too....

The problem with serious weight lifting/body building is it wrecks you... its hard for me to put everything down to one thing... since I did semi pro kick boxing while paying my way through college this has left its marks as well but on many occaisions doing serious weights I ripped ligaments and torn muscle beyond what is healthy... and also considerably stressed my joints which has caused other problems as I got older.

Lifting a few weights is healthy but trying to compete even at a level below steroids seriously wrecks your body... the problem is there comes a point where the only way to get bigger is pushing harder and harder but Im not talking about casual lifting in the gym, Im talking about seriously going for it... to the point where when you train you are so past it is no longer an issue....

Incidentally at the same time I was doing this I also damaged myself just doing sit-ups... you'd think they were safe but one day I decided to do 5,000 and the crazy guys at the gym took it in turns to hold my legs... for the several hours it took... as it turned out I damaged slightly my spine just from the continuous rubbing of my coccyx ...

However even if its not the healthiest in terms of the damage you do yourself at "serious" levels moderate weight training is fine... however I think when you start calling it "weight lifting" for those of uis that did this competitively we consider "body building" or "weight lifting" a different level .. its not a sport or passtime but a way of life...

If your whole week is not planned around eating, gym and eating then I'd say that's not this level,.... so perhaps we are talking about different things

[CarlaB]

Maybe we are ... but then again, my life right now is centered on eating and going to the gym, but that's more to do with my battle of Lyme Disease than anything else, though I also watch what I eat for training, but moderately. I do call it "weight lifting", but not "body building". Since I can't do cardio right now, it just makes sense to me that weight lifting is lifting weights ... not the machines, but free weights.

Overdoing it is definately bad for you. I think, or so I've heard, that some of the old methods have changed, so hopefully there aren't as many damaging themselves as there used to be. However, the magazines/books I read are written for women ... the ones who compete in fitness, not bodybuilding.

And, um, yeah, I would say doing sit-ups all day would be bad ... on many levels!!

As for the original question. Eggs are a good protein source. I eat them almost every day.

[gfp]

sigh ..

A different perspective on protein and other dietary needs for athletes:

Open Original Shared Link

The idea that plant proteins are incomplete or lacking in quality, while oft-repeated, is untrue. An exploration of the history of protein recommendations, the studies and observations they were based on, etc.:

Open Original Shared Link

Also see The China Study, which found that disease prevalence in China is in proportion to the amount of animal products consumed, the studies by Ornish and Esselstyn on heart disease, by Barnard on diabetes, etc. Lower in quality in what sense, I wonder? The idea that one needs to carefully match plant foods to get "complete" protein has been discredited, but continues to get repeated by folks who haven't explored the actual research -- even by some vegetarians! Sigh ... I can hardly blame anyone here for repeating what they've heard; I just wanted to provide the rebuttal.

Anyway, there are dangers from consuming excess protein:

Open Original Shared Link

There is no "protein deficiency" disease out there among vegetarians.

You build muscle by eating sufficient calories and working your muscles. I am unaware of any study showing that protein powders have any beneficial effect beyond providing additional calories.

Its really not worth picking points through all the quasi-science but I'll do 1 paragraph....

Its the one that corresponds best to your post and you were so polite about it that I owe you an answer for you to either beleive, research yourself or disbelieve as you like. (see my signature)

Studies completed in the early 1940's by Dr. William Rose of the University of Illinois found that l0 amino acids were essential for a rat

[holiday16]

Anyone had good luck muscle building with any Gluten-free protien supp's? Has anyone gotten a response from the major protien powder companies--- if they contain gluten?

any names fellow Celiacs?

I don't use the one made for working out, but I've been taking the Shaklee protein every day with no problems. They have a list of what has gluten in it and not very many of their products are on the list. The sports nutrition products would be Physique and Performance both of which are o.k. I've heard that they will be redoing the sports nutrition line so it will be interesting to see what they come out with. Hope this helps.

[hathor]

sigh ..

Its really not worth picking points through all the quasi-science but I'll do 1 paragraph....

Its the one that corresponds best to your post and you were so polite about it that I owe you an answer for you to either beleive, research yourself or disbelieve as you like. (see my signature)

I'll see your "sigh" and raise you another I would be glad to research. But you offer nothing to look at. Dr. McDougall describes all the studies he relies on -- and discusses amino acids in depth. It is misleading to look at one paragraph and complain he doesn't discuss them in that one paragraph. Sometimes it takes more than one paragraph to completely discuss an issue.

You say,"If I were to take his counterpoint I can make an arguament from that BUT the whole point is that humans as well as rats need not only the essential amino acids BUT the correct balance of non essential otherwise they have excess and this leads to toxins... (in your own words)

but it is the excess amino acids which are most toxic not the whole proteins...."

I can't quite parse what you are saying, but I certainly didn't say what you state I did. The problems come from eating excess animal protein. I know of no problems from getting one's protein from plant sources, either theoretically (they contain the animo acids essential to humans) or in practice (no vegans out there who are sick from the mix of amino acids they get).

He never says the Inuit are healthy. So I don't see your point.

The common diseases we in the West suffer from (the diseases of affluence -- heart disease, stroke, osteoporosis, etc.) are not present in these other, largely vegan societies to any degree. That is his point. Obviously, diet cannot immunize one against unsanitary water or the like (the diseases of poverty). Also those very diseases of affluence can be effectively treated in people in the West using the low fat vegan diet (e.g., Ornish with heart disease). It is easy enough to hypothesize that people metabolize food differently, but where is your proof? Are Westerners healthy as they eat the diet they do -- it doesn't look like it to me. If people get healthier when they switch to something like the McDougall diet (every study I've seen), it seems like your speculation is unfounded. If you know of some study showing the contrary, I would be interested in looking at it.

Yes, the Inuit have developed the ability to eat quantities of meat that would lead anyone else to an early grave. Those Inuit who couldn't didn't live to reproduce and pass on their genes. But they couldn't evolve away from the porous bones they get from their diet. And I'm unaware of any evidence that they would be sickened by a low fat vegan diet, assuming they had the means and willingness to eat one.

You say, "the point is amino acid imbalances are more likely with vegan diets, especially when care is not taken to balance them." Again, where is your proof? What study actually shows this to be the case? Dr. McDougall has challenged people publicly, in a professional journal, to come up with such studies and they weren't able to. You and anyone interested can look at the chart with all the specific animo acids and different foods and see for yourselves. Look at longevity and disease statistics -- are vegetarians healthier or unhealthier? It's the former. The only amino acid problems I've ever heard of are from folks who are on a restricted diet, like a poorly designed infant formula.

To admit that there are some in the world who are healthy on vegan diets is telling. For where is any evidence that different ethnic groups need different mixes of animo acids? The point of studying China was that you have a wide disparity in eating habits in different areas. So it is possible to tease out the effect of diet without having people say the difference is due to different genetic backgrounds.

I haven't seen a single study showing that going vegetarian or vegan for members of any ethnic background makes them sick. Of course, you can eat a junky vegan diet but I'm not talking about that. I don't know enough about the ancient Romans to say what the usual causes of death for the poor folks were. But I seriously doubt it was unbalanced amino acid consumption, since that beastie is unobservable in vegan populations today.

I don't wish to prolong this, because I don't know that anyone else is interested. Folks can read what I linked to -- in full -- and compare it to what you have said and make up their own minds.

I would like to provide a counterpoint to your evolution argument, however: Open Original Shared Link

I believe there are now techniques for analyzing bone and telling what the diet was. So perhaps at least this dispute will be resolved in time

Even assuming meat eating helped survival in the distant past (another source of nutrition -- one which easily could go to fat stores to aid survival when food was scarce), that doesn't make it the optimal diet today when food isn't scarce. (Assuming you could find meat that is similar in its nutritional profile to what early hominids had available). Further, evolution favors the ability to live long enough to past on your genes. It doesn't care if you die earlier than need be after that.

Thank you for saying I was polite. I tried. I hope I am still in the zone As always, people who are interested should read both sides (and any others out there) and make up their own minds.

Oh well, I've spent way too much time on this. I'm procrastinating from doing something much less enjoyable that having a friendly debate. We may need to agree to disagree and move on.

[gfp]

Oh well, I've spent way too much time on this. I'm procrastinating from doing something much less enjoyable that having a friendly debate. We may need to agree to disagree and move on.

Its up to you, I am more than happy to debate with anyone who is polite as you are....I'm also happy to provide information and I would appreciate you take time to read it but that's up to you but you should not feel under any obligation to respond if you prefer not.

But you offer nothing to look at.

True, but I do that for a reason...

If you trawl the internet we can both find articles and arguaments in both directions and we can achive nothing.

My first degree is actually organic geochemistry and a very large part of organic geochemistry revolves around amino acids and associated lipids so I take my view of this from the basic definition of amino acids...

Secondly the majority of hard scientific data on protein formation are not available on the internet.

Much of my research on this I did while with access to a university library and scientific journals AND I was a vegetarian (not Vegan) at the time. I am however first and foremost a scientist.

Thirdly the articles you link to make some good points, its the justification behind them which is flawed...and the interpretation of data from previous papers which are not cited nor in context.

Just one example... if you take the atheletes who switched diet and bettered their times...

The article does not mention what their diet was before... nor what the control atheletes were eating, indeed it fails to mention any control at all.

A similar thing can be said about the Carl Lewis article....and what it fail to mention is two fold, firstly Lewis was later found guilty of taking banned substances in 1991 a year after the article was written and secondly and perhaps more importantly than this ...

He told me he was frustrated because all previous eating plans had either caused him to become overweight or left him too weak to compete and win (these were mostly low-calorie, portion-control diets). Shortly afterwards he began eating our recommended low-fat, pure-vegetarian diet and his dilemma was resolved. Yes, he discovered there IS a diet that would allow him to look, feel, function, and perform at his best without ever being hungry

[Heather22]

Great debate. The time and thought put into your posts' have not gone un-noticed. Thanks!

[gfp]

Great debate. The time and thought put into your posts' have not gone un-noticed. Thanks!

Well, I did a lot of research on this when I was vegetarian.

What I missed doing was in retrospect looking into the other possible problems with wheat and soya proteins, boy did I eat a lot of Soya protein at the time thinking it would be the best replacement... my mom who's also a celaic is actually very soy intolerant, she had some tablets with soy in (actually because of her celiac disease) and was ill until she changed .. in retrospect Im just glad I didn't trigger a soy intolerance in myself.

When I look back my GI probs actually started in this phase. I remember a specific night when I had eaten and the food just sat like a lump of lead ... Im not saying it caused it but I do worry about the amount of TSP I consumed...

Regarding suppliments the big prob for me is they are almost all based on proteins you can develop intolerances for like casein (for non vegans) and soy...

[hathor]

Just to say I'm not ignoring you. I will look at what you've said in more depth. I accidentally glutened myself yesterday and feel completely awful/nonfunctional ...

Of course, it could be we've really said all that can be said and the record will speak for itself. I hope so. My mind isn't really all there. About all I can process right now is that you responded

[larry mac]

post deleted by lm

[gfp]

Just to say I'm not ignoring you. I will look at what you've said in more depth. I accidentally glutened myself yesterday and feel completely awful/nonfunctional ...

Ouch ... _____HUGS__________

[surfgolden]

I use Jay Robb's vanilla whey protein. It has NO gluten, casein, among other offenders. It has 24 grams of protein in a single scoop. It is delicious and i drink at least one protein smoothie each day made with the Jay Robb protein. You can buy it in Whole Foods and probably other places too. There is also a web site www.jayrobb.com. His gluten-free protein bars are delicious as well. I buy both in bulk.

I am a 46 year old woman who works out 1 1/2 -2 hours a day (cardio and strength training), vegetarian and I would have to say this protein powder and his bars have certainly ebabled me to keep up such a pace and work full time and keep 8 animals happy.

My favorite smoothie has at least a cup of frozen unsweetened strawberries, 1 scoop of protein, about a cup of diet Ocean Spray Cranberry jucie and blended with ice cubes to thicken.

I should also mention that American Whey protein sold in GNC stores is gluten free. I contacted the company personally to find out as that is the protein I used before I found the Jay Robb. The American Whey tastes pretty good, but not quite as good as the Jay Robb. If budget is a concern, the American Whey is less expensive.

Sorry for the typo's but I'm in a hurry, rushing off to work out. Good luck.

[hathor]

Thanks. I'm not feeling particularly healthy and happy right now but that it my own fault for not being careful at a restaurant.

All I want to add is that you shouldn't assume. I am following the diet I am for health reasons. I said nothing to indicate I was doing so because I object to eating animals for ethical reasons (I spent decades eating animals, and currently wear leather and even fur [albeit hesitantly when I go to my favorite vegetarian restaurants ]) I also eat very little soy (Enterolab is now testing for that, inter alia) and try to avoid isolated soy protein altogether.

I've read about nutrition for years and will continue to do so. I urge everyone to do the same because of its importance to our health.

[gfp]

Thanks. I'm not feeling particularly healthy and happy right now but that it my own fault for not being careful at a restaurant.

Yeah, it sucks but I do the same thing. To me its a question of me controlling the disease not becoming a slave to it. No matter how careful you are it still happens form time to time but equally once the fog has lifted you usually learn something.

All I want to add is that you shouldn't assume. I am following the diet I am for health reasons.

Sorry, your right but I guess I misworded it... what I'm really trying to say is regardless of your reasons anyone and everyone should have the fundamental right to know what's going into their body and that I view veganism as a perfectly valid choice for lots of reasons. In other words I'm not a vegan but I'm really not anti-vegan at all.

A problem I perceive is that because of moral issues they can't put aside (nor should they have to) many vegans spend a lot of time trying to evangelise. When they do this the aruaments they propose are for a large part not balanced because they extract what they want to see from the evidence and ignore what they don't want to see.

This is human nature, these people are not doing this because they are nasty people or want to deceive, they are doing it because that is what they see.

In many ways I think they ask the wrong questions. For instance is a vegan diet healthier/better etc. than the standard American diet. To me this is pointless because almost any diet that makes you think before you put something in your mouth has to be healthier and better. Its very easy to find a study where someone becomes vegan and see's health, performance benefits etc. because on the whole the Western diet is so bad to start off with but there are equal numbers of people who make terrific health gains on the complete inverse with high protein diets like Atkins.

In the same way proponents of Atkins who have seen health benefits will make all sorts of claims and say how much better they are. If you want to set out to prove Atkins is "the best diet" there are 1001 internet sources stating studies saying how its the best most natural diet along with an equal number for the Hay's diet or Paleolithic diets.

I said nothing to indicate I was doing so because I object to eating animals for ethical reasons (I spent decades eating animals, and currently wear leather and even fur [albeit hesitantly when I go to my favorite vegetarian restaurants ])

Like I say, sorry my intention was not to make assumptions about you.

I also eat very little soy (Enterolab is now testing for that, inter alia) and try to avoid isolated soy protein altogether.

I pretty much think that's a good idea. I don't seem to react though I haven't been tested but I see enough people here who do to make me think its proably best avoided by celiacs.

I've read about nutrition for years and will continue to do so. I urge everyone to do the same because of its importance to our health.

Obviously, all I am saying really is that neutral sources are best.

If you want to determine what paleolithic man ate then do so as an excersize, not with an agenda of proving he was either a vegan or carnivore. It will be very interesting to find out more on this because I love the whole subject of anthropology but there is also a lot of evidence already that paleolithic man not only ate a lot of animals but each other too. However, I just don't see how this is an arguament for or against Veganism... after all if we find paleolithic man got a large amount of protein from canibalism we are not going to suddenly start eating each other?

Hope you start feeling better soon...... more cyber HUGS....

[cchhrriiss]

Body Fortress makes a whey protein powder. I talked to Teresa for Body fortress . You can get it at Walmart for 13.00 2lbs. It has 23g protein 1.5g fat. Contains soy. Made in facilty that handles wheat. Their customer service stinks, so if you have any additional questions it takes awhile for an answer.

[hershey]

I use HDT ProBlend 55, either the Chocolate Fudge or the Alpine Vanilla. Both are gluten free, but contain a variety of protein sources including eggs, whey and casein. I have at least one shake a day and haven't had problems with this product. I had to sell several unopened cannisters of SAN Anabolic Infusion because it did contain gluten, although it was the tastiest powder I've ever used. I agree that whole foods would be a better choice, but there are times (like when I'm working) that I can't eat a meal, but I can sip a shake.

I consider myself a bodybuilder. My entire day is centered around the gym and eating or preparing food, but as a celiac and mother of a celiac, the gluten issue is just one more giant hassle in a world of food issues. I'm a personal trainer and pretty much live at the gym.

I really disagree that bodybuilding or serious weight training is unhealthy. COMPETITION PREP is unhealthy. Doing lifts incorrectly or too heavy is unhealthy. Obviously, anabolic steriods and no cardio is unhealthy.

And yes, maybe I'm compensating. I have fibromyagia as well and found that eating clean and lifting weights pretty much ended my pain.

Body Fortress makes a whey protein powder. I talked to Teresa for Body fortress . You can get it at Walmart for 13.00 2lbs. It has 23g protein 1.5g fat. Contains soy. Made in facilty that handles wheat. Their customer service stinks, so if you have any additional questions it takes awhile for an answer.

[Slackermommy]

Prostar Ultimate Nutrition is gluten free except for their cookies n cream flavor. It is a whey protein...my husband uses it and he checked with the company since he didn't want the powder to be all over the kitchen if it contained gluten.