Oxalates And Nightshades

[jerseyangel]

It seems that there are a lot of people interested in the effects that oxalate foods and nightshades may have on us. There have been threads here and there about both of these food groups, but someone suggested one thread so that we can all compare notes, share stories, etc. I thought it was a good idea, so here it is

I have gone "oxalate-lite", along with increasing my calcium intake. I'm also trying cutting out nightshades to see if that will help with some joint aches.

Since I have several other food intolerances, I'm going slow with this. I think the single most helpful thing for me has been the increased calcium--I take a 600mg Caltrate with each meal.

[Flor]

Jerseyangel, thank you SO much for starting this thread!

As you know, I've gotten hot on this topic in the last 24 hours after I stumbled on reference to it buried back on another thread.

I'd like a huge banner on this website somewhere for all new people that says: "Have you thought about nightshades and oxalates if you haven't gotten all better going gluten-free?"

I'm just starting the diet today, so I have no empirical news to report. But I can say that my diet since going gluten-free, DF, SF a year ago has consisted almost ENTIRELY of high oxalate foods with a steady stream of nightshades thrown in.

I have known for awhile that potatoes make me sick -- so sad because I worship potato chips. I mean, I wouldn't have to worship potato chips except I used to worship ice cream, and you know how it goes when the list gets smaller and smaller. Right now I am worshipping this particular brand of macaroons that is nothing but coconut, cane syrup, and egg whites. Eggs don't seem to bother me.

Of course potatoes are a huge ingredient in a lot of the gluten-free foods.

One of the most helpful sites I've found so far is: Open Original Shared Link

They list a number of supplements that should help support getting the oxalates out as well as ones to avoid, at least temporarily.

I've also just signed up for the yahoo group called "trying low oxalate diet" -- you have to ask permission to get on -- but they seem to be doing a very systematic job of testing this out and gathering information, so it would be good for us to make sure what they learn makes it over here. They are doing it for autism spectrum disorder reasons, but of course a lot of the info is still relevant.

I hope everyone else out there who is trying to go nightshade and/or oxalate free will drop a note here so we can get a sense of where we all are in the learning process.

More soon no doubt!

[Flor]

WOW, incredible resource at the "trying low oxalates" yahoo group.

There's a word document in there called "mechanisms behind the leaky gut" that lays out in great detail how celiac disease is the model for understanding the damage that oxalates and other large molecules the gut normally protects the body from can cause when the gut is leaky.

It explains the key role of calcium in closing the open "gates" that one has with leaky gut. And how gluten works to open the "gates" to let other toxins through.

This is amazing stuff! I would cut and paste the entire document in here but it's too long.

I recommend anyone interested in this go to:

Open Original Shared Link

and sign up for the yahoo group and then go to their "files" section and click on "a resource for beginners" -- that word document and several other very useful items are in there. It only takes a few seconds to sign up for the group, but then the administrator needs to email you to officially give you permission to get in. It's TOTALLY worth it!

[Judyin Philly]

Thanks so very much to both of YOU

I have found this to be the precious key that I've been missing in the healing of my leaky gut.

glueless explained to me today why i could eat potatoes all those years and now are a problem.

I'm going to write her to come and please join us here.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A WONDERFUL THREAD AND I FEEL THE MISSING PUZZLE PIECE FOR ALLOT OF US.

JUDY IN PHILLY

[Flor]

MILK THISTLE:

One more little tidbit...

From reading over in the yahoo group I just discovered that Milk Thistle is very high oxalate. I have been taking it daily for almost a year because it was recommended to me for liver cleansing. YIKES!

I mention it just in case anyone else here is taking it.

[jerseyangel]

Thanks for that link, Catesfolly I think I will sign up over there.

Judy --I knew you'd be interested in this. I hope Robbin joins us--we'll take good care of her She has such great info.

Thinking about the calcium link, I believe that it goes farther than the calcium binding with fluids in the colon to prevent D. It does that--no doubt, but I also feel that it goes beyond that--my anxiety is better and I'm thinking that means that the calcium is binding to the excess oxalates, too.

Before I started cutting oxalates and bumping up the calcium, I still always had constant, low-level GI distress. I kept blaming this food or that, for the random episodes of D and anxiety.

I know I have a leaky gut--undiagnosed Celiac for many years, multiple rounds of antibiotics and steroids over the years, and heavy asprin use. I have many additional food intolerances. It makes sense that even being 100% gluten-free, my gut needed more help to continue healing. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 49, and I just read recently (I wish I could remember where) that researchers are beginning to think that people diagnosed later in life have a much harder time healing. Some never completely heal.

[Judyin Philly]

my experience 'mirrors' your exactly Patti...good over view.

i just called robbin and told her of the link which i emailed her.

Catesfolly, funny you mentioned MILK THISTLE: robbin had been taking it and had to stop also.

I'm so happy for this thread.

going to sign in to the yahoo group also.

judy

[Jestgar]

I pretty much exist on tomatoes and I add in peppers whenever I can, but if I eat either of these with garlic my digestive system is trashed for a week. And I have issues with potatoes always. (Well, now always, not before this lovely venture into selective eating.)

I figure oxalates have something to do with it, but I'm curious to hear if anyone else reacts to some of them some of the time, and others all the time.

[jerseyangel]

Jestgar,

I seem to have problems with the nightshades if I eat them several days in a row. I get mild stmptoms from potatoes each time, but it was much worse a couple weeks ago when I had mashed potatoes one night and then spanish rice (tomato, lots of green pepper) the next night.

After that, I was sore for days.

This is still surprising since I just began to have problems with potatoes--they had been a comfort food for me.

On the one hand, I can eat rice and corn now, only to lose the nightshades

[jerseyangel]

So a simple solution is to take a magnesium supplement with each meal.

Hi TVHF,

I can't take magnesium in a suppliment as it always causes D. I do eat foods rich in magnesium, though. Is that enough considering the high amount of calcium I take?

I originally began taking the calcium to counteract the D, and then started looking into the oxalate after a friend had fantastic results with the low oxalate diet.

[gluless]

Jerseyangel, thank you SO much for starting this thread!

As you know, I've gotten hot on this topic in the last 24 hours after I stumbled on reference to it buried back on another thread.

I'd like a huge banner on this website somewhere for all new people that says: "Have you thought about nightshades and oxalates if you haven't gotten all better going gluten-free?"

I'm just starting the diet today, so I have no empirical news to report. But I can say that my diet since going gluten-free, DF, SF a year ago has consisted almost ENTIRELY of high oxalate foods with a steady stream of nightshades thrown in.

I have known for awhile that potatoes make me sick -- so sad because I worship potato chips. I mean, I wouldn't have to worship potato chips except I used to worship ice cream, and you know how it goes when the list gets smaller and smaller. Right now I am worshipping this particular brand of macaroons that is nothing but coconut, cane syrup, and egg whites. Eggs don't seem to bother me.

Of course potatoes are a huge ingredient in a lot of the gluten-free foods.

One of the most helpful sites I've found so far is: Open Original Shared Link

They list a number of supplements that should help support getting the oxalates out as well as ones to avoid, at least temporarily.

I've also just signed up for the yahoo group called "trying low oxalate diet" -- you have to ask permission to get on -- but they seem to be doing a very systematic job of testing this out and gathering information, so it would be good for us to make sure what they learn makes it over here. They are doing it for autism spectrum disorder reasons, but of course a lot of the info is still relevant.

I hope everyone else out there who is trying to go nightshade and/or oxalate free will drop a note here so we can get a sense of where we all are in the learning process.

More soon no doubt!

THANK YOU JERSEYANGEL!!! This is a topic I have been researching for a few months and put myself on the low oxalate diet after doing an "experiment" with an oxalate overload and feeling like death afterwards. I have had fibromyalgia for a long, long time as well as celiac/gluten intolerance and I just wasn't getting relief with the pain and intermittent D. I joined that yahoo group, too and was the one that got the response regarding milk thistle!!!

What I have experienced is nothing short of AMAZING!! I have had shedding of oxalates consistently since starting this diet in June. Foot pain that felt like walking on glass is gone, rib pain and fibrocystic breast pain is gone, hard layers of lumpy tissue is gone, painful lumps on legs are gone and even my face looks different because the hard tissue in the cheeks has gone and I am looking like myself again!! With each "dumping" of oxalate episode, I get tremendous pain in an area and extreme exhaustion and then after a day or so, a new and wonderful relief and improvement!

I take Vitamin Shoppe brand calcium citrate with magnesium -two capsules with each meal-each capsule has 333mg calcium citrate and 189 mg. magnesium.

From what I have learned, oxalates are normally digested by a good bacterium in our intestines called oxac. formigenes, and this good bacteria can be destroyed by antibiotics, perhaps vaccines, or long term intestinal illness. Once the bacteria is gone, you cannot digest oxalates normally and they cause a condition called enteric hyperoxalosis, which is a known condition by urologists and some of the more learned gastroenterologists. The oxalates form crystals which are attracted to tissue that has been damaged by injury or illness. Organs, muscles, even bone. Bacteria, such as lyme, or candida and metals bind with the oxalates. Excess vitamin C can be converted to oxalates in the liver. Oxalate crystals are in cataracts, thyroid, kidney stones, gallstones, and also are always present along breast cancer cells. Fibrous tumors of all kinds can contain them.

The probiotic O.formigenes is the only one I couldn't find in the health food stores BECAUSE it is now patented and being produced as a PRESCRIBED drug for treatment of kidney stones. Some good probiotics can help some, but the best and only way to control excess oxalates once you lose the "good bacteria" is avoidance of the high oxalate foods.

Google ENTERIC HYPEROXALURIA and illnesses like thyroid and oxalates, or gallbladder and oxalates, or celiac and oxalates and you will be AMAZED at the studies and information. I really feel that it is what is known as FIBROMYALGIA and IBS, but that is only my UNDOCTOR opinion. My results speak for themselves to me!!!

[jerseyangel]

Robbin,

Thank you! You were the friend I was referring to in my earlier post.

The way you explained it makes so much sense. This stuff just has to all be connected somehow--you are living proof! Especially for those of us with years of damage, this could at the very least be something to look into.

Please keep us posted on your progress--it's been amazing so far.

[gluless]

I forgot to add this--drink lots of water if you are going low oxalate-this is very important! Eight to ten glasses a day. The excess oxalates are shed in urine, through skin, eyes, & bowels. One thing I would advise based on my own experience is to try to get as much of your nutrients from food as possible. I eat two bananas every day to keep potassium levels normal and eat low fat to keep liver and gallbladder problems at bay as well. I also take a probiotic and once a week oil of oregano and milk thistle (with a calcium citrate cap since milk thistle is high oxalate, but really beneficial for the liver functioning). All of these I take with food. I would encourage anyone trying this to eat lots of the veggies on the low oxalate list and include lots of melons like honeydew and cantaloupe for the B vitamins. Hope this helps someone else, because I feel like a living miracle myself and want to tell the world, lol.

gluless is the poster formerly known as Robbin

[ArtGirl]

I had immediate success with the gluten-free diet, then began to backslide - stopped eating corn, eggs and milk, and got much better. But it's been a slow, steady decline for several months now (more episodes of diahrrea and more fatigue)

So now I'm really interested in this thread and the information about oxalates. Just a couple weeks ago I decided to cut out potatoes after reading about this subject in another thread. I also stopped eating almonds. The result has been a normalizing of my GI problems and an increase in energy.

So, now I'm getting real interested in oxalates. I joined the yahoo group a few minutes ago and haven't yet been able to access the resources, but will do so as soon as I can.

Thanks for this thread.

[Judyin Philly]

Thanks so much Robbin for the in-dept but clear and concise details of a topic that can be confusing.............but ...............you made it so clear.

I too have found my tumors and hard bone protrusions getting softer and 'squishy' around the edges.

so appreciate the effort you put into all the time and research.

You sure have helped me.

Judy

[darlindeb25]

The more I read, the more this makes sense. I have always felt that at my age it would take a very long time, if ever to heal. I was 45 when I went gluten free and had been sick for at least 20 yrs then, years that I can remember anyways. I have read some of you say--you went gluten-free and felt great, only to find in time that you developed another intolerance, just as I did. First it was soy after 3 yrs of gluten-free, then in a few months it was corn, and then the others seemed to follow much quicker--so much quicker, that my boyfriend at the time was afraid my body was going to reject all foods.

So, I have joined the yahoo group and will study up on this one. Thank you.

[jerseyangel]

I had immediate success with the gluten-free diet, then began to backslide - stopped eating corn, eggs and milk, and got much better. But it's been a slow, steady decline for several months now (more episodes of diahrrea and more fatigue)

So now I'm really interested in this thread and the information about oxalates. Just a couple weeks ago I decided to cut out potatoes after reading about this subject in another thread. I also stopped eating almonds. The result has been a normalizing of my GI problems and an increase in energy.

So, now I'm getting real interested in oxalates. I joined the yahoo group a few minutes ago and haven't yet been able to access the resources, but will do so as soon as I can.

Thanks for this thread.

Hi Valda,

You sound a lot like me I'm really excited about this--I think all of us putting our heads together is going to work so much better. I tried last night to join the yahoo group, and gave up after it rejected about 8 usernames. I guess they already have a jerseyangel

The more I read, the more this makes sense. I have always felt that at my age it would take a very long time, if ever to heal. I was 45 when I went gluten free and had been sick for at least 20 yrs then, years that I can remember anyways. I have read some of you say--you went gluten-free and felt great, only to find in time that you developed another intolerance, just as I did. First it was soy after 3 yrs of gluten-free, then in a few months it was corn, and then the others seemed to follow much quicker--so much quicker, that my boyfriend at the time was afraid my body was going to reject all foods.

So, I have joined the yahoo group and will study up on this one. Thank you.

Deb,

I've been following your posts lately and I'm glad you're looking into this. I keep thinking there is just a piece of the puzzle that we're not finding--yet

I read that you had a hysterectomy recently--I had one in January. I hope that you're healing well from that.

[gluless]

This brings up a good point--how many of us women have had a hysterectomy due to endometriosis or fibroid tumors? I wonder what role oxalates play in the formation of the abnormal tissue?? The problem with the tissue cultures that are normally studied after biopsies is that a normal biopsy is not done under a polarized light (from what I understand about the process, correct me if I am wrong, any histologists or lab path. people!!) An oxalate crystal formation will not show up under normal light conditions.

I forgot to mention the role of leaky gut-which I guess you all have gathered that the lining of the intestine is thinned and permeated by the celiac or other condition and oxalates damage further and circulate throughout the body.

One thing that I also take once a week is red marine algae tabs --this is widely used in other countries to bind with toxic metals and allow them to be eliminated through urine and bowels. Once you release the oxalates that are in your tissue, the metals and bacteria that are bound to them COULD be released from their oxalate bound sites where they have been residing and causing us untold misery! (not sure if calcium citrate keeps them attached to the crystals and then they are eliminated along with the crystals or not, still looking into this aspect of it all.)

Vitamin B6 is another very important aspect of the process in binding oxalates and healing. I have been trying to avoid my multivitamins, limit unnecessary supplements as much as possible, and eat as much B vitamin rich foods as possible since my digestion is still on shaky ground and I don't want to rock the boat at this point when I am getting so much better. So far this is working for me, but others may need to take more vitamin/supplements to help with their symptoms.

I read that the bacterium that digests oxalates, o.formigenes also produces a substance/enzyme that is very important in muscle health and process and that with a depletion of the o.formigenes, the important enzyme is also depleted. This would explain the fatigue and muscle weakness that so many of us have as well.

[Judyin Philly]

PATTI SAID

" I'm really excited about this--I think all of us putting our heads together is going to work so much better."

Good Morning all info seekers...

I have to say here that the --

'BRAIN STORMING' THAT PATTI AND ROBBIN AND I HAVE DONE THESE LONG PAST 2 YEARS HAVE CERTAINLY GOTTEN ME TO THIS HEALTHIER POINT IN MY LIFE'. THEY HAVE BEEN MY LIFE LINE WHEN I FELT I WAS READY TO GIVE UP.'

WE ALWAYS FELT THERE WAS A PIECE OF THE PUZZLE MISSING..........I'M PRAYING THIS IS IT.

I JUST KNOW THAT 'HUP' HOSPITAL TOOK MY TUMOR CELLS.. AND TRIED TO CULTURE THEM AND SENT THEM TO EVERY RESPECTED LAB IN THE USA AND THEY COULDN'T FIND A 'REASON FOR THEM'...REMEMBER WHAT ROBBIN SAID ABOUT THE TESTING--

The problem with the tissue cultures that are normally studied after biopsies is that a normal biopsy is not done under a polarized light (from what I understand about the process, correct me if I am wrong, any histologists or lab path. people!!) An oxalate crystal formation will not show up under normal light conditions.

.......ANOTHER AH- HA MOMENT.

I'M SO HOPEFUL THAT WE CAN ALL SHARE ANY INFO...ANY...WHETHER YOU THINK IT IS IMPORTANT OR NOT.......... IT JUST MIGHT BE A TRIGGER TO GET SOMEONE ELSE THINKING .....

THANKS AGAIN PATTI FOR DOING THIS.

HOPEFUL AGAIN JUDY....

[ArtGirl]

tried last night to join the yahoo group, and gave up after it rejected about 8 usernames.

My experience, too. However, I tried using a phase rather than a "name" and managed to register under "alotless4me" - thinking that my food choices are soon to be reduced again!

The resources for beginners is worth the hassle.

[Flor]

Two questions for you all:

Having eliminated gluten, dairy, soy, corn, nightshades, and now high oxalate foods, I'm wondering what everyone's experience has been with SUGAR?

Also, I'm curious about people's experience with "dumping" once on the low oxalate diet. How quickly did that start, what were the symptoms, and is this something that happens recurringly? And if so, for how long and how often? Is there any literature at all on this that people know of?

Happy weekend!

[Judyin Philly]

Two questions for you all:

Having eliminated gluten, dairy, soy, corn, nightshades, and now high oxalate foods, I'm wondering what everyone's experience has been with SUGAR?

Also, I'm curious about people's experience with "dumping" once on the low oxalate diet. How quickly did that start, what were the symptoms, and is this something that happens recurringly? And if so, for how long and how often? Is there any literature at all on this that people know of?

Happy weekend!

ditto........i was going to ask this too

judy

[ArtGirl]

My questions, too.

[Rachel--24]

Hi Robbin!!!!

Sorry I didnt get back to you (the pm is still in my box)...I'm horrible with pm's and emails.

I *have* followed your jourmal entries and its GREAT to see you are doing so well!

I guess I'm on as low-oxalate as you can get (by default).

Anyways to answer the sugar question...

Oxalates are very easily produced by sugar. If you eat a lot of sugar, it depresses thiamine chemistry. Enzymes then turn things into oxalates. So don

[Judyin Philly]

spent the afternoon looking on the low oxalate site trying to find a link for dumping and didn't find it but did find this.....anyone..robbin...or others who know more than i do .............PLEASE CORRECT THIS INFO IF YOU FIND ERRORS.

THIS WAS A SAMPLE DIET SOME 'MOM' I THINK PUT UP..MEANING IT WAS FOR CHIDRENS AMOUNTS I BELIEVE.

MAYBE SOME INFO ISN'T GOOD FOR US CELIACS...WE'LL HAVE TO CK THAT PART OUT.

SAMPLE MENUS

Each day is between 2200 and 2500 calories, 170-250 carbs and 26 - 40 oxalates. I believe the carbs should be higher but I am still working on it. All servings are