How Not Feel Guilty Going From Eating Strict Vegetarian Diet To Eating Some Meat...

[em2005]

Hey all,

Now, for the past while, I have been eating along the lines of strict vegetarianism as well as being gluten free. My reasons for doing this were (besides not being able to eat gluten/dairy) health reasons. I found that a lot of meat gave me tummy trouble when I ate it. I did still eat moderate amounts of fish. However, during my time eating this way, I began to feel that my decision (while still mostly health-related) was becoming more of an ethical issue, as well, and started phasing out the seafood and fish that I did eat. However, with the celiac disease, I also found that my system was SO sensitive to protein sources like soy, beans/legumes and nuts. I also find eggs make me feel oozy when I eat a lot of them. I can eat beans/legumes and nuts in these in small amounts, but depending on them as a daily source of protein was throwing my system of out whack. I almost NEVER eat soy anymore... makes my stomach hurt and my skin itch.

Now, the best my stomach has been is when I am eating a very clean diet: rice, vegetables, fruit, and a bit of organic chicken.

Since coming to the realization that I just cannot tolerate a lot of alternate protein sources, I have started eating small amounts of meat again. I mostly stick with organic chicken as beef and other meats really have a negative impact on the way I feel, BUT... I am still having a really, really hard time going back to eating some meat. I am feel guilty when I am in the grocery store and go to buy it, usually thinking of reasons WHY I shouldn't buy it (i.e. too costly...)

Has anyone else had experience with this?? How to shift thinking??? I know some of you have been vegan/vegetarian and have gone back to eating some meat because of the food restrictions of celiac.

Help!

[AndreaB]

I was on a vegan diet for 3 years and a ovo or lacto-ovo diet for 4-5 years before that. I went off of meat since it was "so bad for you". I had to start eating meat again because I am intolerant to gluten and soy as well as allergic to other beans. My allergy test didn't cover all of them but I just tried one that wasn't on the list and had stomach distress.....so out they go. The body needs protein and if you can't get it from non meat sources, for your health, you need to use meat sources. What you add in is up to you and what you can handle.

I comforted myself with the fact that the 100% grass fed beef, organic, free range chicken etc. is the best you can get and since they are raised the way they are supposed to be, much better for you than factory farmed stuff. The price is out of this world but our health is worth it. I found a site online that is recommended by Dr. Mercola that sells 100% grass fed beef and many other things that are raised naturally. Check out Open Original Shared Link and see if you are interested in anything they offer. They are also very helpful if you call. We have gone back to eating eggs, beef, chicken, salmon and turkey (although mostly eggs, beef and chicken). I feel a lot better adding meat back into my diet.

[Guest cassidy]

You said that you went veggie because of health reasons. Well, now you are going back to eating meat because of health reasons. If the health reasons came first when you stopped eating meat and then you developed supporting reasons to reinforce your decision, maybe it can work in reverse.

I was a vegetarian for about 17 years. I would go through periods where I was strict and others where I would eat chicken. I still don't like eating meat and much prefer not to eat it. Now that I'm married it is hard enough to prepare gluten-free meals, my husband likes meat and wouldn't go for gluten-free meatless meals so sometimes I eat is and sometimes I eat the side dishes.

Maybe if you stick to organic chicken you will get used to the idea and it won't bother you so much. I've been eating meat for about 2 years and there is still no way I would eat anything with bones or skin - that completely grosses me out.

The mind is a powerful thing. We can convince ourselves of whatever we want. If you really want to eat meat because you feel better when you do I bet you can convince yourself it is the best thing for you to do. Being healthy and feeling good is what is most important. Good luck with your struggle, I realize it can be tough to go back to eating it.

[CarlaB]

I ate primarily vegetarian for several years ... I only ate meat if we were at someone's house for dinner or on the holidays. Part of the reason for doing this is my husband sells to meat packers and I hear too many stories about killing of the animals, handling, etc. On the good side, he can also tell me who to buy from ... there is a certain company of hams that he will not eat! I also did not like the hormones and anti-biotics.

I had to add back meat because I just wasn't feeling as good as I should on the vegetarian diet. Comfort yourself in knowing that is seems we were meant to be omnivores. If we're meant to eat this way, then it's not wrong to eat this way. You can still apply the ethical reasoning to the decision on which meat to buy. For example, I always buy free-range eggs. People ask why, and I tell them that I want my eggs to come from happy chickens that walk around and eat bugs! I also buy free-range chicken for the same reason. I think that if the animals are happy, they're probably that much healthier for us!

The cost -- well, it's food you need and healthy food cost more. You'll be sick if you eat the standard american diet! Consider it to be an insurance, what you spend now will save you later on health bills.

[Jestgar]

I started eating meat again just because it required too much planning not to. I still have a hard time thininking of it as "food" (4 months as an omnivore).

I actually invited a friend over for a barbecue and later realized I had forgotten to get meat!

Oh well. Grilled vegetables are pretty good by themselves.

[Nancym]

It is a marvel that we have such magnificent minds that we can feel guilt over our choice of foods. But probably a good deal of that brain power came from adopting a diet that contained the flesh of other animals. Would it help to get a historical perspective of meat eating? There are indigenous tribes that eat extremely meat heavy diets. Inuits in the artic circle had no plant food whatsoever during many parts of the year. Some native North Americans eat very little plant food (the Chipiwas in N. Minnesota). And there's pretty good evidence that neanderthals were big meat eaters.

I'm a big fan of the Paleo diet. Here's a site with a pretty good collection, including anthropological evidence of meat eating in early humans. There's pretty good evidence that humans have hunted lots of prehistoric animals to extinction, so I think the biological evidence that humans have evolved to get nutrition from meat is pretty compelling. Jared Diamond has written a bit about this sort of stuff.

Here's a web site that might help convince you that your newly rediscovered meat eating ways are the healthiest for your body: Open Original Shared Link

As far as the morality, I think we can address that by ensuring that animals are bred and kept in humane circumstances. Eat free range and organic if you can afford it. Hey, this is an interesting answer to the morality thing: Open Original Shared Link

[seattlecdfriend]

em2005....This is very good for me to read. My friend is also a very strict vegetarian for ehthical/moral reasons. Soy products are now beginning to cause problems as well. So far she is not gluten-free/wf and soy limited her choices even more. I wish I had some advice to offer. I'm listening at this point.

CalrlaB.. I will get some mileage out of your comment about us seemingly being meant to be omnivores. Wisdom speaks.

[CarlaB]

CalrlaB.. I will get some mileage out of your comment about us seemingly being meant to be omnivores. Wisdom speaks.

Thank you. It's always good to know a post helped someone.

[em2005]

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

It is nice to get some of your experiences/perspectives on this.

Today, I was in the grocery store where they do not sell ~organic~ meat/chicken there, just regular meat. I was totally craving some chicken, walked by the aisle, but did not purchase anything because it wasn't organic like I usually buy. That was just an excuse, really... in all honesty, I just could not bring myself to buy it!! It's crazy! My shopping habits are...well...habits, and after buying gluten-free/dairy-free/meat-free stuff for so long, it is so hard to go back to buying meat. I will buy organic chicken when I am in the natural food store, but then again, it is so damn expensive (I also use that as an excuse). I just need to get past all of my old habits and branch out, but it is hard as I really do see all animals as being these cute, furry, living, breathing, feeling animals. *sigh*

[gfp]

I started eating meat again just because it required too much planning not to. I still have a hard time thininking of it as "food" (4 months as an omnivore).

I think this is a very good reason.

Its not impossible to have a balanced vegan diet but it is very hard and you need a detailed knowledge of biochemistry to actually do it. I'm more than happy to beleive Jestgar has this knowledge and this is why it is so hard. Trying to maintain your essential amino aicds to anything like a balance on a vergan diet is pretty hard in itself.... if you remove gluten its even harder and if you don't want to eat a lot of soy protein .... pretty much a full time job!

Now I'm not rabidly anti-soy but I don't think it is a natural food that should play a major part of diet in anyone. Only the West actually uses soy as a protein source, oriental cuisine does not use significant amounts of non fermented soy... its a misconception, soy is usually a added compenent not the major protein source.

However I do think that if you already have one immune system intolerance then not making soy (or other allergens) a large part of your diet is a smart move ... its like asking for trouble later IMHO.

On the ethical issue...

That's very individual.

I had one friend who was vegan except for milk and got quite ill. At the time we were in our undergrad projects both on the North coast of scotland and he actually went fishing, caught a fish and ate it.

He felt a lot less guilty having caught it himself and killed it himself as humanly as possible rather than buying it in plastic and pushing the resposibility for killing the fish onto someone else. Once he knew he could catch and kill fish he was then OK with eating all wild fish.

[oceangirl]

I think this is a very good reason.

Its not impossible to have a balanced vegan diet but it is very hard and you need a detailed knowledge of biochemistry to actually do it. I'm more than happy to beleive Jestgar has this knowledge and this is why it is so hard. Trying to maintain your essential amino aicds to anything like a balance on a vergan diet is pretty hard in itself.... if you remove gluten its even harder and if you don't want to eat a lot of soy protein .... pretty much a full time job!

Now I'm not rabidly anti-soy but I don't think it is a natural food that should play a major part of diet in anyone. Only the West actually uses soy as a protein source, oriental cuisine does not use significant amounts of non fermented soy... its a misconception, soy is usually a added compenent not the major protein source.

However I do think that if you already have one immune system intolerance then not making soy (or other allergens) a large part of your diet is a smart move ... its like asking for trouble later IMHO.

On the ethical issue...

That's very individual.

I had one friend who was vegan except for milk and got quite ill. At the time we were in our undergrad projects both on the North coast of scotland and he actually went fishing, caught a fish and ate it.

He felt a lot less guilty having caught it himself and killed it himself as humanly as possible rather than buying it in plastic and pushing the resposibility for killing the fish onto someone else. Once he knew he could catch and kill fish he was then OK with eating all wild fish.

I've been vegetarian for years and my daughter is one, but I needed to stop because I kept getting anemic. Our teeth and our evolution show us to be omnivores. Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma", by Michael Pollan. I have a different take than most vegetarians I know on the killing of things for food. That is- we can't eat without killing things. Read "The Secret Life of Plants" to gain some perspective on plants as well. That book changed my life back in the seventies. We should raise animals and kill them humanely and we must be truly grateful and thankful for each meal and not eat more

than we need. But this is the set-up on planet Earth. We cannot walk across a lawn without harming something. Be at peace knowing you are self-aware and caring and then eat what makes you well.

lisa

Okay, I don't know what I did, but my response is mixed in with Steve's, I think. It started with: "I have been a vegetarian and my daughter is one..."

lisa

[bluejeangirl]

Its really hard to change habits that are based in how you believed for a long time. It still feels like your betraying your conscience. There is alot of chemicals involved that science and psychology has a hard time understanding, although they know so much more and I just read where people with chemical addictions will be helped in the near future with some new medications that stop the brain from cravings.

It takes 30 days to start a new habit. It probably won't feel right until then but you will overcome those feelings. Until then base your decisions not on how you feel but on what you know to be true. Right in down on paper and look at it. Your basing you decision on what you know to get healthier.

I feel alot better eating protein that come from good sources. I don't know if you can get it in your area but there's elk burgers were I shop. Elk is VERY lean and easy to digest. I like ground buffalo also which is leaner than hamburger and they are almost always allowed to free roam and feed on grasses. I'm trying to think of meats that's healthy and easy to digest. If you choose salmon which is really good for you try to get wild Alaskan instead of farm raised. I even buy it in the can and just mix it with mayo.

My favorite is Smart chicken and I eat it all the time. Smart is the brand name.

Good luck and good health,

Gail

[Nancym]

I'll quote this for those that aren't link chasers. This was about the animal destroyed by agriculture.

...As you and I know, most vegetarians are motivated, at least in part, by their view of the immorality of exploiting animals. Most of them, of course, are city dwellers who have never had the opportunity to till, plant and harvest a field with a vegetable crop.

Crop agriculture, even if inveterbrates are excluded, is devastating to small amphibians, reptiles, nesting birds and mammals. Even the occasional larger mammal is injured during the cropping process. Unavoidably, the plow destroys burrows and young. Harvest machines kill some animals directly and expose others to the tender mercies of predators. Many times, I have watched as coyotes and hawks follow my tractor feasting on the victims of the plow and reaper [hey, but it is nice for these predators].

Really, how could it be otherwise? Vegetables and cereals are the foods of many animals. For rodents, crops are a real bonanza in terms of food and shelter. They multiply rapidly which only increases the tally during field preparation and harvest.

To my thinking, there is little question that raising animals for meat, especially if they are not fattened with agricultural products, is far less devastating to animal life than is agriculture. If one acre of land produces one sheep a year for slaughter, one life is taken. If one acre of land is put into cereal production the cost in just mammalian life can be measured in the dozens or more.

Of course, animal death due to cropping is "invisible" and therefore doesn't happen. Lamb chops in the market are visible and vegetarians weep for the victim. I know that these realities have no impact on animal-rights types -

[RiceGuy]

Well, I know it can be pointless to try to convince a meat eater, especially a "meat-loving" meat eater, that there is plenty of protein available in vegetable sources. So I won't attempt that. Though many people (especially Americans) seem to think immediately of meat when they look for a protein source, I can give at least some assurance that it's easy to acquire enough protein (and whatever else meat is supposed to provide) on a vegetarian/vegan diet.

I will also point out the fact that the recommended amount of protein had been too high for decades, because it was mistakenly based on rats instead of humans! The RDA (now called Recommended Daily Intake) was eventually changed, but it seems many Americans simply don't realize that the emphasis on protein was misguided. For some info on this, I will refer to the following document: Open Original Shared Link

Like everything else, there's both good and bad advice out there on this topic. Weeding through it can be difficult and confusing to say the least. What I've found is that a variety of vegetables and grains are good protein sources, not just legumes/beans. It also seems that protein and calories are interrelated, which I'm not surprised about at all, since everything in our diets work together. Just consider the fact that the body must work to digest food. That takes energy, so it makes sense that the body would require more calories to properly digest a more complex molecule.

Here are some good articles to consider:

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Anyway, if you have trouble with all beans, then I'd think it might be due to a lack in one or more enzymes or some nutrient(s). The digestive system attempts to keep an adequate supply of the enzymes being used, based on the diet. So not eating much of a particular kind of protein means you might have some discomfort/trouble if you suddenly increase your intake. The body won't be prepared for it until it "stocks up" on the enzymes, as well as other things, I'm sure. While you might have allergies/sensitivities to some beans, you may find that you can eat others without problems if you start out with smaller amounts, giving the body time to adjust. The same goes for grains, nuts, etc. Basically any food which is a particularly denser source of one or more nutrients than your body is accustomed to seeing. That's my understanding on it.

Interestingly, I've never had trouble acquiring enough protein, and I don't get out a calculator to figure what my meals should be! I just eat a bunch of different things, and attempt to make each meal different from the last. I haven't tasted meat in years. Even when I did, it wasn't much, and I wasn't all that enthusiastic for it anyway. Maybe once in a span of a month or two I'd have a can of tuna, or a bit of turkey to flavor a pasta or rice dish. Meat was never a centerpiece of meals when I was growing up, so I'm sure that influenced my diet a lot. I don't miss meat at all. I've always had strong nails, healthy/shiny hair, no cavities in my teeth, etc. Given my lifelong struggle with undiagnosed gluten intolerance/Celiac, I'm somewhat surprised I managed so long before the damage took its toll. Maybe all those home-grown veggies paid off. We sure had a huge garden when I was little.

[queenofhearts]

I really understand where you are coming from. I was a strict lacto-ovo vegetarian for 14 years, then decided to include fish & chicken in my diet because I just had a strong feeling that I wasn't well nourished. (This was long before I was diagnosed Celiac, & I now suspect that both the distaste for meat & the feeling of being malnourished were/are related to Celiac.)

To this day it feels slightly odd to me to eat meat more than once or twice a week, even though I've been eating some fish & chicken for over 20 years now. I'm trying now to talk myself into red meat... but that's just too hard for me still. I've had anemia for years & everyone said "Eat red meat!" but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I'm still trying to keep an open mind about it, & someday I may be able to do it, I just don't know.

I am an avid gardener & I have great respect for plant life, so I agree with Lisa, in a sense you are killing whatever you eat. (There is some valid argument for fructarianism, but then you might be killing yourself!) Even when I was vegetarian, I realized it was a philosophically fuzzy line to draw-- really it just came down to eating what I was comfortable with. And I've certainly never felt I had any semblance of a philosophical argument for eating chicken but not beef... it's a purely physical feeling of recoiling. Hard to explain, really.

I certainly can't argue that one is naturally drawn to eat what is good for one's own constitution, because all my life I absolutely loved all wheat products! When I felt ill the first thing I did was go the dry toast route... so much for healthy instincts!

[gfp]

I will also point out the fact that the recommended amount of protein had been too high for decades, because it was mistakenly based on rats instead of humans! The RDA (now called Recommended Daily Intake) was eventually changed, but it seems many Americans simply don't realize that the emphasis on protein was misguided. For some info on this, I will refer to the following document:

Gotta go but quck post..

I agree the RDA has been way to high for a long time but this greatly over simplifies the subject.

Protein does not build muscle .. amino acids do when recombined to human protein.

If you are not getting a balance of the essential amino acids then everything else is wasted and not used as protein and eventually converted to glycogen. In the meatime it can produce all sorts of deterious effects.

The amount of protein ingested is actually irrelevant what is important is the amount of usuable protein.

You could eat melons or potatoes all day and the body would be unable to use any of the protein unless its combined. If you combine it then unless you know the amino acid content of the foods then you are going to end up with an imbalance.

Meats are much closer to what we need so gram for gram provide more usuable protein and less (dangerous) by products.

[RiceGuy]

I agree that the essential amino acids are...well...essential. They can't be synthesized by the body, so we must obtain them from food.

Here are the 20 standard amino acids, as described on Open Original Shared Link:

Essential

Isoleucine

Leucine

Lysine

Methionine

Phenylalanine

Threonine

Tryptophan

Valine

Arginine*

Histidine*

*Histidine and arginine are generally only considered essential in children, because the metabolic pathways that synthesize these amino acids are not fully developed in children.

Nonessential

Alanine

Asparagine

Aspartate

Cysteine

Glutamate

Glutamine

Glycine

Proline

Serine

Tyrosine

Additionally, there are the fatty acids. And like the amino acids, there are both essential and non-essential types. A comparison of animal and plant fats show many plant fats to be a far better choice.

I should have mentioned in my previous post that I actually don't eat much if any beans. This isn't by intent, and until more recent times I simply didn't take much notice. I have always loved peanut butter though, and until going on the gluten-free diet I consumed it regularly, in sandwiches of course. Being that the prepackaged gluten-free breads are expensive, and I haven't yet experimented with baking gluten-free breads, I switched to munching on peanuts until I get into some baking again. So peanuts certainly added to my protein intake, ever since early childhood. And I regularly ate quite a lot more of it than most people I know. So now I'm wondering if the this reduction since going gluten-free has contributed to any of the recent health problems I've been having.

I'm actually not as against all meat as I am in favor of vegetables as protein sources. All my research indicates vegetables are simply healthier, especially when meats are so often tainted with all sorts of things which shouldn't be there. I also noticed that whenever I ate meat, I didn't feel as well. Darkening under my eyes was also a sign that something wasn't right. It was a somewhat regular part of my diet, just in small amounts - not like steaks or ribs, etc. The largest amounts of meat I ate was in the occasional meatloaf or meatballs. Both of which always had generous amounts of oatmeal (not breadcrumbs), along with other ingredients to make the most of the amount of meat being used. At the dinner table, meat was something added for flavor, not a main course.

It may be that Celiacs can require a higher than normal protein intake. If so, that would explain why so many feel they have to eat meats. I know there are a number of members on this board who have negative reactions to nuts/peanuts, so for those individuals, protein might be harder to find if beans aren't or can't be used. Especially if the increased protein consumption idea is true.

Beans seem to be less popular with people in the US than in various other countries, which only adds to the meat trend. Of course, the beef and dairy industries continue to do whatever they can to promote the consumption of their products, which seem to be more controversial than ever these days. Still, Asian populations enjoy longer, healthier lives than people in the US, and Asians traditionally eat far more legumes/beans, and considerably less meats. Add in all the processed foods on the typical American supermarket shelf, and you have a recipe for much of the chronic/epidemic health problems in America.

[CarlaB]

It may be that Celiacs can require a higher than normal protein intake. If so, that would explain why so many feel they have to eat meats. I know there are a number of members on this board who have negative reactions to nuts/peanuts, so for those individuals, protein might be harder to find if beans aren't or can't be used. Especially if the increased protein consumption idea is true.

I don't disagree with what you've said, but I found after several years mostly vegetarian, even eating copious amounts of beans and tofu, that I wasn't getting enough protein. I felt better when I added back meat, fish and eggs.

I have been reading on adrenal fatigue as my doc thinks that's what's causing my fatigue and other symptoms. Those with adrenal fatigue require more protein, fewer carbs and no sugar. One doctor went so far as to say that he didn't think a vegetarian could come out of adrenal fatigue.

Since you're feeling bad, you might look it up and see if this could possibly be your problem. From what I can tell from my limited research, celiacs would be prone to it since we've been under a state of constant inflammation for years.

The other issue with being celiac and vegetarian is that many of us are low on B12, which a vegetarian would need to supplement.

[queenofhearts]

As I understand, you can get B12 from eggs-- so unless you are vegan or lacto only, you don't need the supplements. I used to eat loads of eggs in my veggie days, partly because they were easily available, partly because I could only eat limited amounts of beans without distress. I still turn to them often when I feel I need a protein boost. They're an excellent match of amino acids for human protein needs. I also eat plenty of nuts. Peanut butter on rice or corn cakes with raisins is my favorite quickie breakfast, & I use nuts in salads & breads, & snack on them too. I keep a few in my purse when I'm going to be away from home in case I need an emergency snack.

[eKatherine]

Well, I know it can be pointless to try to convince a meat eater, especially a "meat-loving" meat eater, that there is plenty of protein available in vegetable sources. So I won't attempt that. Though many people (especially Americans) seem to think immediately of meat when they look for a protein source, I can give at least some assurance that it's easy to acquire enough protein (and whatever else meat is supposed to provide) on a vegetarian/vegan diet.

I will also point out the fact that the recommended amount of protein had been too high for decades, because it was mistakenly based on rats instead of humans! The RDA (now called Recommended Daily Intake) was eventually changed, but it seems many Americans simply don't realize that the emphasis on protein was misguided. For some info on this, I will refer to the following document: Open Original Shared Link

Like everything else, there's both good and bad advice out there on this topic. Weeding through it can be difficult and confusing to say the least. What I've found is that a variety of vegetables and grains are good protein sources, not just legumes/beans. It also seems that protein and calories are interrelated, which I'm not surprised about at all, since everything in our diets work together. Just consider the fact that the body must work to digest food. That takes energy, so it makes sense that the body would require more calories to properly digest a more complex molecule.

Here are some good articles to consider:

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

I see you took every article from a provegetarian source. I would have to point out, though, that the recommended protein levels have been repeatedly and reproducibly tested on healthy, sedentary persons and found to be correct, that is, when they consume much less protein than is recommended, they get sick. Extremely active, ill or recuperating people may require much more.

Anyway, if you have trouble with all beans, then I'd think it might be due to a lack in one or more enzymes or some nutrient(s). The digestive system attempts to keep an adequate supply of the enzymes being used, based on the diet. So not eating much of a particular kind of protein means you might have some discomfort/trouble if you suddenly increase your intake. The body won't be prepared for it until it "stocks up" on the enzymes, as well as other things, I'm sure. While you might have allergies/sensitivities to some beans, you may find that you can eat others without problems if you start out with smaller amounts, giving the body time to adjust. The same goes for grains, nuts, etc. Basically any food which is a particularly denser source of one or more nutrients than your body is accustomed to seeing. That's my understanding on it.

Interestingly, I've never had trouble acquiring enough protein, and I don't get out a calculator to figure what my meals should be! I just eat a bunch of different things, and attempt to make each meal different from the last. I haven't tasted meat in years. Even when I did, it wasn't much, and I wasn't all that enthusiastic for it anyway. Maybe once in a span of a month or two I'd have a can of tuna, or a bit of turkey to flavor a pasta or rice dish. Meat was never a centerpiece of meals when I was growing up, so I'm sure that influenced my diet a lot. I don't miss meat at all. I've always had strong nails, healthy/shiny hair, no cavities in my teeth, etc. Given my lifelong struggle with undiagnosed gluten intolerance/Celiac, I'm somewhat surprised I managed so long before the damage took its toll. Maybe all those home-grown veggies paid off. We sure had a huge garden when I was little.

Sorry. I have never once met a vegan who had calculated their protein intake for even one day's food, and I can't accept that the feeling that you must be getting enough protein is clear evidence of anything at all.

[Nancym]

I think a lot of our current obesity epidemic is due to people not eating enough protein. This is just one of the many articles/studies I've been reading about this: Open Original Shared Link

Anyway, I like to eat a good solid chunk of protein at every meal. I try to get 75-90g a day. I can't imagine I could eat enough vegetable matter, especially eschewing (sic) the grains and soy I'm intolerant of, to be able to make it. My jaw would fall off.

And all the recent information about how various amino acids are so important to us as we age, so we don't lose muscle mass.... No, I think I'll continue to get my protein in its most complete and dense form.

[gfp]

I agree that the essential amino acids are...well...essential. They can't be synthesized by the body, so we must obtain them from food.

...............

Additionally, there are the fatty acids. And like the amino acids, there are both essential and non-essential types. A comparison of animal and plant fats show many plant fats to be a far better choice.

.. and I'm not arguing that point and I am far from advocating carnivorism as a healthy diet in humans....we are omnivorous by evolution and plants play as large a role in our nutrients as meats, probably larger.

In common with elephants, guinea pigs and one or two other species humans are rather atypical in their inability to synthesise vitamin C.

I should have mentioned in my previous post that I actually don't eat much if any beans. This isn't by intent, and until more recent times I simply didn't take much notice. I have always loved peanut butter though, and until going on the gluten-free diet I consumed it regularly, in sandwiches of course. Being that the prepackaged gluten-free breads are expensive, and I haven't yet experimented with baking gluten-free breads, I switched to munching on peanuts until I get into some baking again. So peanuts certainly added to my protein intake, ever since early childhood. And I regularly ate quite a lot more of it than most people I know. So now I'm wondering if the this reduction since going gluten-free has contributed to any of the recent health problems I've been having.

Have you ever tried peanut butter on apple?

.. and as you ask later.. of course celaics require more protein, firstly they are not digesting it efficiently and secondly ourt bodies are in a constant state of repair (or disprepair) requiring proteins and a catabolic state.

I'm actually not as against all meat as I am in favor of vegetables as protein sources. All my research indicates vegetables are simply healthier, especially when meats are so often tainted with all sorts of things which shouldn't be there. I also noticed that whenever I ate meat, I didn't feel as well. Darkening under my eyes was also a sign that something wasn't right. It was a somewhat regular part of my diet, just in small amounts - not like steaks or ribs, etc. The largest amounts of meat I ate was in the occasional meatloaf or meatballs. Both of which always had generous amounts of oatmeal (not breadcrumbs), along with other ingredients to make the most of the amount of meat being used. At the dinner table, meat was something added for flavor, not a main course.

My upbringing was similar.. meat was only eaten once a day at most and then it was a luxury item.

It may be that Celiacs can require a higher than normal protein intake. If so, that would explain why so many feel they have to eat meats. I know there are a number of members on this board who have negative reactions to nuts/peanuts, so for those individuals, protein might be harder to find if beans aren't or can't be used. Especially if the increased protein consumption idea is true.

Beans seem to be less popular with people in the US than in various other countries, which only adds to the meat trend. Of course, the beef and dairy industries continue to do whatever they can to promote the consumption of their products, which seem to be more controversial than ever these days. Still, Asian populations enjoy longer, healthier lives than people in the US, and Asians traditionally eat far more legumes/beans, and considerably less meats. Add in all the processed foods on the typical American supermarket shelf, and you have a recipe for much of the chronic/epidemic health problems in America.

I agree entirely but my basic precept is a perfect healthy diet doesn't exist.... everything you eat is bad for you some way or another .. my premise is you have to balance out and eat things in moderation.

For example many root vegetables are high in very toxic trace metals like selenium depending where they are grown.

I would be the first to agree that meat is eaten in not only excessive but obscene amounts in the US and that this trend is now following in Europe, firstly with the UK and Holland and speading out.

In countries with very high disposable income it is as bad or worse as the USA.

This might suprise you but for instance Libyans have a very high disposable income although like the US this is largely offset by private schools being expensive.

Officially Libyans only have a GDP per Capita of $11,630 per capita but considering there are officially 1.301 LD to the $ (IMF figures) and you can but 300 kg of beef for about 15 LD $11,360 buys a lot of meat. In addition all the "staples" bread, couscous, rice and olive oil are regualted and cost cents or hundreths of cents. (The price of bread is fixed at 20 pestari per kg and 1000 pestari per dinar) so a dollar buys over 50 loaves of bread!

Meat consumption is enormous, even by American standards.... and diabetes and obesity related diseases are going through the roof. Couscous has changed from being a vegetable dish with a little meat to a meat dish with some vegetables squeezed in.

Life expecancy is 76.69 compared to 77.42 in the USA... (WHO figures) although since over 90% of Libyans have African genes this figure still beats the USA life expectancy for African Americans at 71.4 ....

Europe

The rise of the American and copy-cat fast food industries in Europe has again increased meat consumption significantly.

Here are some interesting statistics presented as decending life expectancy in 2000

1955 1960 1970 1980 1990 2000

MARTINIQUE 56.6 60.8 66.7 71.8 76.3 78.8

SWITZERLAND 69.2 70.7 72.2 75.2 77.4 78.6

SPAIN 63.9 67.7 71.6 74.3 76.6 78.4

ITALY 66 68.5 71 73.6 76.2 78.2

FRANCE 66.5 69.6 71.5 73.7 76 78.1

HOLLAND 72.1 73 73.6 75.3 76.8 77.9

BELGIUM 67.5 69.7 70.9 72.3 75.2 77.9

UK 69.2 70.4 71.4 72.8 75 77.2

SINGAPORE 60.4 63.2 67.9 70.8 73.6 77.2

USA 68.9 69.7 70.4 73.3 74.4 76.2

CUBA 59.3 62.3 68.3 72.6 74.1 76

and the same countries by decending life expectancy is 1955

HOLLAND 72.1 73 73.6 75.3 76.8 77.9

UK 69.2 70.4 71.4 72.8 75 77.2

SWITZERLAND 69.2 70.7 72.2 75.2 77.4 78.6

USA 68.9 69.7 70.4 73.3 74.4 76.2

BELGIUM 67.5 69.7 70.9 72.3 75.2 77.9

FRANCE 66.5 69.6 71.5 73.7 76 78.1

ITALY 66 68.5 71 73.6 76.2 78.2

SPAIN 63.9 67.7 71.6 74.3 76.6 78.4

SINGAPORE 60.4 63.2 67.9 70.8 73.6 77.2

CUBA 59.3 62.3 68.3 72.6 74.1 76

MARTINIQUE 56.6 60.8 66.7 71.8 76.3 78.8

I threw in Martinique for a reason, it is a French protectorate and the right to work there is strictly limited.. even for French citizens who have a right to reside but not work without special application.

It also has a grand total of ZERO McDonalds. (which Im using as a fast food metric specific to meat)

The first thing to note is that most of the countries completely switch over between 1955 and 2000.

Martinique goes from the bottom to the top....but on the whole its inverted excepting Switzerland and Singapore.

The second is rather more cultural....

For instance the Mcdonalds Switzerland site is in German only? Presumably they don't expect to have many customers in French or Italian two of the other official languages?

Secondly "little USA wannbee countries" like Holland and UK go from the top part to the bottom.

Its hard to do this today accurately but personal experience tells me there are over 100 McDonalds in Central London alone (the yellow pages maxes out at 100) pop. = 2,766,114 versus 6 in inner Paris (2,125,246).

(note: Paris Remains the Most Dense Major City in the Developed World: Nonetheless, Paris remains by far the developed world's most densely populated major city (over 1,000,000), at 63,374 per square mile, excluding the peripheral parks, (24,450 per square kilometer). Paris is approximately double the density of Tokyo, three times as dense as inner London and six times as dense as Greater London. Paris is at least 2.5 times as dense as New York.)

Amsterdam (pop 730,000) 1/3 of Paris has a Mcdonalds on every corner practically.. though they are ex-directory in the phone book preventing a search.

Instead

Amsterdam

Eating

Amsterdam has loads of fast food joints ranging from McDonalds and Burger King to the ubiqtuious stands selling Vlaams Frites (French Fries) which are served in a paper cone with mayonnaise or a large selection of other sauces.

If you look at the figures you can see that those countries starting out quite well have plunged in general...

The UK and Holland were the first to start McDonalds and similar and the first to suffer healthwise (although obviously there is a big time gap) and obesity figures show a quicker response .... studies have been done showing correlations with the number of fast food resto's and obesity and it is a very good correlation!

Martinique is interesting because it enjoys a world class medical system being a French protectorate but imported fast food is almost unknown. I'm tempted to even say this shows how other countries should have fared without influence of Amercian style fast food and with advancing medicine.

[jerseyangel]

I think a lot of our current obesity epidemic is due to people not eating enough protein. This is just one of the many articles/studies I've been reading about this: Open Original Shared Link

Anyway, I like to eat a good solid chunk of protein at every meal. I try to get 75-90g a day. I can't imagine I could eat enough vegetable matter, especially eschewing (sic) the grains and soy I'm intolerant of, to be able to make it. My jaw would fall off.

And all the recent information about how various amino acids are so important to us as we age, so we don't lose muscle mass.... No, I think I'll continue to get my protein in its most complete and dense form.

I'm with you, Nancy!

I'm intolerant to most forms of plant protein. It would make things so much easier if I wasn't!

I seem to feel better and am able to hold my weight steady eating some meat with every meal.

Thanks for the link

[2wheels4eyes]

May I just say I'm amazed by the brilliance of the posts in this thread?! Nuanced arguments backed by fascinating, careful research... amazing. I hope the gluten-free diet makes me so smart

I used to think I knew a thing or two about amino acids, etc. but dare not post a word on that stuff here after reading the previous posts. Instead I'll offer some humble advice as a vegetarian (2 years) turned vegan (3 years) then ovo-lacto-pesco vegetarian again (7 years) who since my celiac disease diagnosis a month ago (and cutting out dairy and soy) is now eating chicken, turkey and fish.

1) We are, from an evolutionary perspective, undoubtably carnivores.

2) Eating "happy" meats is good karma. As far as I'm concerned, animal flesh *ought* to be frighteningly expensive to eat.

3) The moral and environmental impact of eating flesh foods in reasonable amounts (reasonable meaning enough to live, i.e. no where near the amounts typically consumed in the U.S.) does not even approach the moral and environmental damage of my other vices (plane travel several times a year, riding in buses or cars several times a week, trading up my electronic devices every few years, etc.)

4) One way I've found to mitigate my guilt/reluctance/disgust about consuming flesh foods is to buy "happy" meat (organic, free range, etc.) from local folks at my local farmer's market. This way I engage in an ongoing relationship with people who truly care about what they do and who do it on a small and humane scale. Buying locally significantly reduces, I would argue, my environmental and moral culpability.

And finally... not an argument but... last night I was asking my better half, who brought home a bit of (ruinously expensive) turkey from the local co-op if the bird was "happy" turkey. "Sure," was the reply, "this turkey was so happy it laughed all the way to the bank and then with the proceeds sent its kids to a good college. At this price point, the turkey had better be happy!"

[melie]

I am amazed at the number of vegetarians/former vegetarians here! I am not alone, after all. I went gluten-free in April, got diagnosed by Enterolab in June, and added meat back starting in July. It was just too hard for me to find enough to eat otherwise. Busy lifestyle, kids, and dairy and soy are out for me too, and I don't like beans. I was pretty much hungry and tired all the time. I gradually added in organic sliced turkey and have progressed from there...even red meat, which I thought I would never eat. I am just trusting my body's wisdom on this. I was an ovo-lacto vegetarian for 12 years, and it has been such a part of my identity, it definitely has been hard to start eating meat again. It's interesting that we are all seeming to choose free-range, organic sources for our meat, which I think is a terrific thing. The one thing this disease has done for me is to really wake me up to my own health. But, I'm finding after 5 months on the diet that I feel I am still in day-to-day survival mode. Does it ever get easier, regardless if one eats meat or not?