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HawkFire

Pork Digestive Systems Of Pigs... Does It Remove Gluten?

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Hey guys--Hawkfire raised some interesting issues and some legitimate questions. While I do think that 2kids4me provided an enormous amount of concrete information that answers almost every question, I do NOT think that anybody ought to be bashing Hawkfire. There is a difference between treating someone with kindness and respect--even if you don't agree with his or her views--and smashing them down and being gleeful about doing so.

Some of you are treating her exactly the same way the doctors who don't believe gluten is a problem have treated most of us. Cut it out. :ph34r:

It is possible to disagree without being nasty about it.

I did no bashing or "smashing down" in my responses, yet was accused of being prejudiced, that I have a personal problem with the question, that I am "offended on the behalf of a pig," and that I am belligerent.

Who exactly was being nasty here?

Michelle

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"You are absolutely correct--that is what they look for. However, I don't trust "them" any further than I can throw the bathtub; I don't think "they" know what the heck they are doing. So for all we know, gluten itself might be present in our skin, but "they" have never bothered to look. There's an awful lot of things "they" have never bothered to look for!"

All science shows at this point that the cause of DH is the IGA deposits UNDER the skin. That's why it can last so long even after a person has gone gluten-free. Do you have evidence that shows otherwise? If so, please provide it.

richard

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"You are absolutely correct--that is what they look for. However, I don't trust "them" any further than I can throw the bathtub; I don't think "they" know what the heck they are doing. So for all we know, gluten itself might be present in our skin, but "they" have never bothered to look. There's an awful lot of things "they" have never bothered to look for!"

I can't remember seeing a more bizarre statement in a long time. Do you have the scientific background to prove that doctors should be looking for "gluten" in the "skin" rather than IGA in tissues below the skin? Have you come up with some new protocol they should be using? All science shows at this point that the cause of DH is the IGA deposits UNDER the skin. That's why it can last so long even after a person has gone gluten-free. Do you have evidence that shows otherwise? If so, please provide it.

richard

I NEVER said that gluten in the skin is the cause of DH, nor that they should be looking for it rather than IGA, in the skin, in the tissues below the skin, or anywhere else.

My point was that I could not find any indication that anyone has even wondered if it IS in the tissues below the skin or on the skin, let alone conducted a study about it. Do I need a scientific background to ask questions?

Like many people here, I have had terrible experiences because of doctors who think they know "because of what science shows"--and they were WRONG, which is why I wrote that there are a lot of things that they hae never bothered to look for and that I no longer trust them.

I REALLY don't think I deserve the hostility in your last post, Richard.

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Sorry for the hostility but when you question "they" in this case, you're being hostile to the top celiac experts in the world -- the people who are responsible for what we DO know about celiac and DH. It's people like Dr. Green and Fasano who have researched and developed the information we're talking about, not your family physician who screwed up your diagnosis. My guess is -- although I don't have proof -- that "they" have indeed looked for gluten in the skin. That's why they know it's the antibodies causing DH, not gluten.

richard

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5510a1.htm

as for 1 in 6 w/ trich...here is the cdc proof that only 33 cases have been reported in 4 yrs. these points are only valid if they are backed up w/ proof.

Glad you looked that one up. I knew that the trich info was very, very old and completely false. Trich has virtually been eliminated in pork in the U.S. That's why you don't have to cook it to a crisp any more.

richard

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Sorry for the hostility but when you question "they" in this case, you're being hostile to the top celiac experts in the world -- the people who are responsible for what we DO know about celiac and DH. It's people like Dr. Green and Fasano who have researched and developed the information we're talking about, not your family physician who screwed up your diagnosis. My guess is -- although I don't have proof -- that "they" have indeed looked for gluten in the skin. That's why they know it's the antibodies causing DH, not gluten.

richard

I NEVER said that I thought that gluten in the skin causes DH. I asked whether gluten is present in the skin for those of us who have DH. I asked about it because one of the the original questions of this thread was whether or not gluten could be in meat. They are both valid questions; I was not jumping to any conclusions about cause and effect. I believe that I was quite clear , but you misunderstood and/or misinterpreted what I wrote.

My questioning ANY medical professionals--whether they are typical MD's or Drs. Fasano and Green--is not hostililty. They may be the top celiac experts in the world, but they are not perfect. I have the right to question, withhold trust, and even disagree with them and that is not hostility. And it certainly does NOT give you the right to be hostile to me or to anyone else.

You know, when you say, "Sorry for the hostility but when you question "they" in this case, you're being hostile to the top celiac experts in the world ," that is implying that I somehow gave you the right to be hostile to me. "Sorry, but" is not an apology; it is a way of shrugging off responsibility. And it is not conciliatory, or even friendly; it is poorly disguised hostility.

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Guest WashingtonLady

:huh:

Wow! I remember raising our own pigs as a kids and really enjoying fresh pork. The store bought stuff isn't the same. I don't know if I'll EVER be able to eat it again, though, after reading all that...even if only a smidge is true for either side of the arguments.

If you're gonna buy beef, find someone who raises their own naturally for that purpose and buy a side from them come butchering time. You can dictate the amount of fat in the ground meat and decide what cuts work best for your family---and it's WAY cheaper than retail PLUS being exponentially healthier. I raise my own chickens for the fresh eggs, though I can't bring myself to eat 'the girls' and have managed, therefore, to create a sort of birdy haven for aging poultry over the years.

As far as pork causing a gluten reaction, which, I think, was one of the original Q's: I made some WONDERFUL, fresh and healthy split pea soup the other day. It was the perfect thing, just days after coming off a 20 day fast, and I made myself sicker than a dog from eating it--I'd used ham hocks for the soup base and shredded the meat into the soup! A couple days before, not having made any connection at the time, I had a chef salad (with ham) and was so sick that within the time it took my son to finish his meal, I had to head to the bathroom, and (thankfully) I'd stopped eating the salad. Silly me; I thought it was the dressing that was getting to me! <_<

So, even BEFORE reading the above convicting messages, I had decided to do away with pork. I don't want to take the chance of feeling like that again! I think there's SOME connection between gluten-free & these little piggies.

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I honestly do not believe that any of us have a gluten reaction to meat. We may react to meat, yet it isnt a gluten reaction. I react to the fat in meat--when I did eat pork, I ate the whitest pork I could find. We celiac's do not only react to gluten. I have more intolerances outside of the actual wheat, rye, and barley.

I believe a lot of this is not proven and it's out there to scare us. Which it definitely does scare people.

And, as so many have stated, pigs are not dirty. They are probably the cleanest animal of all. I can attest to the fact that pigs choose one corner as their potty and socialize in the other areas. A pig is as clean as their owner allows them to be!

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http://www.pacifichealthcenter.com/updates/29.asp

This man seems to be fairly objective and points out the science behind not eating Pork. He makes very good points. :):):):)

No he doesn't, he doesn't even look at science...

He mixes fact., fiction and religious dogma ...

As an example... I could take it from your avatar your a patriotic American ?

I could list lots of bad things about America, I could ignore all the great things your nation has achieved and just dig up the bad..

I can point out that not only does Leviticus condone slavery, it seperates it into treatment of Isrealite and Judeaic slaves and everyone else... just like the US did with African and white slaves (yes there were thousands of white slaves too they were just treated as people not property according to a modified Leviticus)

But WHY?

If I wanted to listen to that drivel I could download Ben Laden's rantings!

Seriously what has the fact a pig can survive a snake bite got to do with anything... So did St. Paul and it was seen as a miracle not proof he was contaminated!

The article you posted is simply the pig equaivalent .. I have lived next to pigs and they are not dirty, indeed they are cleaner than dogs... they are freakin noisy so I don't recommend it! I also ate them after and helped slaughter them humanely! (they were also sorta pets) ..

I could write as much about a cow... UGGGH the food basically ROTS in their stomach... etc... How about fish? They are mostly either scavengers or eat other fish.. in most ways the hunters are the healthiest .. except they concentrate heavy metals being at the top of the food chain.

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I did no bashing or "smashing down" in my responses, yet was accused of being prejudiced, that I have a personal problem with the question, that I am "offended on the behalf of a pig," and that I am belligerent.

Who exactly was being nasty here?

Michelle

Sorry but I agree...

Almost every "fact" Hawkfire posted was incorrect....

OK, they read a bad article (no problem) but when the proof it is not correct is posted its polite to acknowledge it...not ignore the proof...

@Fiddle-Faddle .. not like your going to eat pork anyway ;) but...

Lovegrov is correct... and the reason is really obvious....if you look at it from a different perspective!

i.e what we know and don't ....

Gluten doesn't actually hurt us... it is the products it breaks down into that causes the damage. (This we do know although we are not sure exactly which part... just it must be a amino acid sequence present in wheat (gluten), rye (aveline (sp?)) and barley (horedine) ... so the "gluten" must be digested in order to cause a autoimmune response...

These products are volatile and transitory... I would say eating pig stomach would not be clever or sausages made from intestines because this is where the "gluten" attaches... but the actual flesh means the amino acid chains have to break down to component amino acids to be reconstructed as pig protein... fat is perhaps different BUT it would only be put into fat if the pig was itself celiac.. (not impossible and indeed there is a condition very similar to celiac disease in pigs with soya protein) ... sadly there is more money in why pigs fail to thrive than why kids fail to thrive ....

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I could write as much about a cow... UGGGH the food basically ROTS in their stomach

um, just to clarify, the food ferments it doesnt rot..... they are meant to eat grasses and legumes.... ranges cows and hay (alfalfa) fed cows do better than any fed the corn based feed.

Sandy

for any interested readers..

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathp...rumination.html

The rumen is a fermentation vat par excellance, providing an anaerobic environment, constant temperature and pH, and good mixing. Well-masticated substrates are delivered through the esophagus on a regular schedule, and fermentation products are either absorbed in the rumen itself or flow out for further digestion and absorption downstream.

Ruminants evolved to consume and subsist on roughage - grasses and shrubs built predominantly of cellulose.

You may find articles such as this that mention the word rot, in regards to cow digestion. If you read the paragraph they are saying that if you fed milk to an adult ruminant then it would rot. The baby calf has system to avoid the "rotting" and digest it until they can eat grasses.

The processes described above apply to adult ruminants. For the first month or so of life, the ruminant is functionally a monogastric. The forestomachs are formed, but are not yet fully developed. If milk is introduced into such a rumen, it basically rots rather than being fermented. To avoid this problem in such young ruminants, suckling causes a reflex closure of muscular folds that form a channel from the esophageal orifice toward the omasum (the esophageal groove), shunting milk away from the rumen and straight toward the stomach where it can be curdled by rennin and eventually digested enzymatically.

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um, just to clarify, the food ferments it doesnt rot..... they are meant to eat grasses and legumes.... ranges cows and hay (alfalfa) fed cows do better than any fed the corn based feed.

Sandy

;) I know I was just writing in the "style" of the articles about pigs...

On the same vein, sheeps stomachs are full of bacteria YUCK ... (of course so are ours and every other mammal...) Rattle snakes are full of venom... but they sure as heck grill up pretty good :D etc. etc. and those bacteria in sheeps stomach's .. oh yep many of you are taking them in pill form as probiotics...

I'm just pointing out that a whole thread on "pigs are dirty" makes no sense ... comparing pigs to rats is beyond silly... pigs and bears perhaps... rats and rabbits (YUMM) but rabbits eat their own poop.... since they lack a ruminant stomach they re-eat their poop to get more nourishment from it...

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Thought I'd add this - food for thought... and yes, if you have concerns about consuming any food product, then dont eat it.

Humans are the only animal that consumes highly processed food (or feeds it to other animals). We feed animals an unnatural diet (like corn and grain to a cow who is meant to eat grasses)

Mushrooms grow best in manure - and we eat them with no problem.

We eat a variety of vegetables that grow out of the ground, and organic or not, bugs, and rodents visit the garden daily .

We eat foods from cans and junk food like chips, chocolate, ice cream, cake, pop........ we drink milk after we are weaned and then wonder why we have trouble digesting it...

For the most "intelligent" creature on this planet, we cringe at the digestive processes in animals that have evolved in nature and work quite well... yet we (collective "we" meaning society as a whole) assault our own digestive tract daily.

The gluten free diet is probably one of the healthier diets out there.

Again, ........eat what you feel comfortable eating

Sandy

but rabbits eat their own poop....
:D:lol:

I forgot about the rabbit! My own dog likes to eat deer poop, :huh: it must be a delicacy for her!

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Thought I'd add this - food for thought... and yes, if you have concerns about consuming any food product, then dont eat it.

Humans are the only animal that consumes highly processed food (or feeds it to other animals). We feed animals an unnatural diet (like corn and grain to a cow who is meant to eat grasses)

Mushrooms grow best in manure - and we eat them with no problem.

We eat a variety of vegetables that grow out of the ground, and organic or not, bugs, and rodents visit the garden daily .

We eat foods from cans and junk food like chips, chocolate, ice cream, cake, pop........ we drink milk after we are weaned and then wonder why we have trouble digesting it...

For the most "intelligent" creature on this planet, we cringe at the digestive processes in animals that have evolved in nature and work quite well... yet we (collective "we" meaning society as a whole) assault our own digestive tract daily.

The gluten free diet is probably one of the healthier diets out there.

Again, ........eat what you feel comfortable eating

Sandy

:D:lol:

I forgot about the rabbit! My own dog likes to eat deer poop, :huh: it must be a delicacy for her!

Must try some... though I guess watch out for ticks :D

but hey, lets not stop .. vegetables are disgusting... they grow in soil where animals have rotted and pooped... ;)

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In general, the goal is not to change the mind of the person posting information but to make sure other people reading the board are aware of opposing viewpoints.

The human body is very complex and there is a lot that varies from individual to individual. A single person's experience is hard to extrapolate from because of all lack of variance reduction and because of coincidental effects.

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I do not know that you would consider me a patriotic American. I do not support the wars we're engaged in. I simply couldn't find a peace symbol to use that had flowers in it and the plain ones were too stark for me.

Not to get political but some (including me) would view it as patriotic not to just blindly support a war :D

I do not agree that the FDA approves safe drugs

Well it approves some safe drugs and it approves some unsafe ones and it also doesn't approve some safe ones due to political pressure...

or that MSG is harmless or that Dairy is an appropriate source of calcium or that vitamin suppliments are beneficial to any human being. All of those statements can be argued against as well as my belief that pork is what I say it is and what I believe it is.

Not really because the difference is you state these are beliefs... that's OK because beliefs are not always based on fact...

Personally I stay away from MSG... and I try and limit dairy but I love cheese... HOWEVER that doesn't mean I think its an appropriate source of calcium... or that its good for any mammal that is past nursing... I just like cheese. (The raw stuff with real rennet and unpasturised)

I am convinced that pork is bad for you, that the animal is not fit for human consumption based on the information I provided. Obviously, for some, independent thought is frightening. You fear what you cannot control. Let me explain to you as kindly as I can that it is ok for me to have a belief, an opinion, a conviction or whatever you want to label it (choose your insulting take on it) and have my opinion, my conviction, my belief not cause you any harm whatsoever. You can go along your merry way with your convictions and I will not mind one bit if you chose to eat pork, eat MSG, wear pink with purple polk-a-dots or jump rope on one foot while brushing your teeth. Honestly, you'd think my position on pork was going to alter the universe or harm helpless children the way you bristle. Take a deep breath and realize you cannot control me- which is- after all, what this is truely about. - Your need to control what I believe.

Let me answer it in reverse....

Firstly I'm concerned not what you believe, I might diagree with you but I'll fight tooth and nail for your right to believe it! What I'm concerned about is that many of the members here already have a huge amount of restriction on their diets and many struggle to find enough variety...

I personally believe Soy is bad... I can site real scientific studies as to why.. or you can find them yourself or you can not... or you might already agree...

So my worry here is people are losing an extra food because of incorrect facts you posted... and the bottom line for me as to wondering if I should or should not eat pork is simple... they are intellegent animals.

What I do disagree with is pseudo science presented as science.... and you dismissing the documented scientific proof that 2kids4me has presented VERY WELL.

Secondly you are citing sources which are pseudo-scientific in nature... and contain myths and fables as part of scientific arguament... You are more than welcome to your opinion... if you are not happy eating pork then don't... but if you are going to post things you claim to be fact at least have the courtousy to admit when you are wrong...

If you don't beleive 2kids4me you can check this out yourself...

Oh, I read about the tube that runs down the back of the leg to drain pus and I just could never eat it again.

which I presume you got here

The pig is so poisonous and filthy, that nature had to prepare him a sewer line or canal running down each leg with an outlet in the bottom of the foot. Out of this hole oozes pus and filth his body cannot pass into its system fast enough. Some of this pus gets into the meat of the pig

a large amount of what you claim is fact is easily disnmissed by dicsecting a pig... you don't need to do it yourself... you can ask someone does it everyday like a butcher... or visit an abbatoir. Its just plain wrong, and fear mongering... and did I mention wrong!

Pig's bodies contain many toxins, worms and latent diseases. Although some of these infestations are harbored in other animals, modern veterinarians say that pigs are far more predisposed to these illnesses than other animals

.....One in six people in the US and Canada has trichinosis from eating trichina worms which are found in pork.

None of the vets I know think this... and lots of animals also eat poop... like rabbits and lots of animals have toxins, worms and latent diseases. As was pointed out trichinosis is extremely rare in the US and most cases are from chicken or turkey NOT pigs!

From 1991 to 1996, an annual average of 12 cases per year were reported in the United States. The number of cases has decreased because of legislation prohibiting the feeding of raw meat garbage to hogs, increased commercial and home freezing of pork, and the public awareness of the danger of eating raw or undercooked pork products. Today, one of the primary causes of trichinosis in America is the consumption of raw or undercooked wild game meats.

Compare that to 90 peple on average a year killed by lightning... and its insignificant...

Influenza (flu) is one of the most famous illnesses which pigs share with humans. This illness is harbored in the lungs of pigs during the summer months and tends to affect pigs and humans in the cooler months. Sausage contains bits of pigs' lungs, so those who eat pork sausage tend to suffer more during epidemics of influenza.

Once again what about turkeys and birds?

Typically, influenza is transmitted from infected mammals through the air by coughs or sneezes, creating aerosols containing the virus, and from infected birds through their droppings. Influenza can also be transmitted by saliva, nasal secretions, feces and blood. Infections occur through contact with these bodily fluids or with contaminated surfaces. Flu viruses can remain infectious for about one week at human body temperature, over 30 days at 0

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I'm surprised that this thread has been made "active" again. I thought it had been beaten to death already. :unsure: It certainly doesn't need to turn into a thread about religion.

Michelle

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So please stop doing it for Him

You are so funny. :lol:

Hawkfire, I am not going to argue with you, you clearly have your own interpretation and have your mind set on it. Eating pork for you would be wrong because you consider it morally reprehensible. Eating pork for me is not wrong and it does not make me less of a Christian than you.

If you wonder why people are hostile towards you, it's because you are judging all of us and holding us to your personal beliefs.

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You are so funny. :lol:

Hawkfire, I am not going to argue with you, you clearly have your own interpretation and have your mind set on it. Eating pork for you would be wrong because you consider it morally reprehensible. Eating pork for me is not wrong and it does not make me less of a Christian than you.

If you wonder why people are hostile towards you, it's because you are judging all of us and holding us to your personal beliefs.

Well said Carla

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There is no scientific or religious support for eating pork. I am tired of the "christians" who claim they've been freed from the junk in the first half of the bible. You're still obligated, just as Jesus was.

....then, if we take this further.....all Christians should still provide burnt offerings, grain offerings, wave offerings, animal and blood safrifices on the altar, all of it, and our temples/churches should all be built with the specific layouts and materials (lapis, gold, fine linens etc.) of the holy of holies......and if women are menstruating, we must be separate as we are unclean...and those with skin diseases must remain separate....on and on.

Hawkfire - - Jesus came to abolish all of this....

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You are so funny. :lol:

Hawkfire, I am not going to argue with you, you clearly have your own interpretation and have your mind set on it. Eating pork for you would be wrong because you consider it morally reprehensible. Eating pork for me is not wrong and it does not make me less of a Christian than you.

If you wonder why people are hostile towards you, it's because you are judging all of us and holding us to your personal beliefs.

Well said Carla :D

HawkFire, these are nice folks ... Ive know them a long time and although I don't share the religion many have I accept their beliefs... just so long as they are beliefs...

Hundreds of millions of Hindu's believe eating cows is wrong... and they believe in this every bit as much as you do... but its not fact... As Carla say's your presenting YOUR interpretation of the Bible as THE interpretation... whereas to me it is no more valid than any other version or the Hindi holy works...

If a Hindu tells you your religion is WRONG and your eating BEEF is bad then I'm sure you would think it non of their business.

I beleive that you beleive this but you can't expect millions of people to take your interpretation or that of small sects and be told thier religion is wrong...

I don't believe in god anyway but regardless if I say its possible God created the earth.(for the sake of peace).. religion was still created by man and is therefore flawed. Hence its a matter of belief and tradition

Your initial arguament that this isn't on religious grounds seems somewhat marred when you then write a veritable essay quoting the bible. If god is so flawless surely he wouldn't send Peter the vision that would so easily be misinterpreted? or perhaps God intended people to make up their own minds?

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Hawkfire, I am not going to argue with you, you clearly have your own interpretation and have your mind set on it. Eating pork for you would be wrong because you consider it morally reprehensible. Eating pork for me is not wrong and it does not make me less of a Christian than you.

If you wonder why people are hostile towards you, it's because you are judging all of us and holding us to your personal beliefs.

Yes Carla, well said. A Christian does not judge others, just as quoting from the Bible does not make a person Christian. There are so many varitables. Food is food, religion is religion and I think I am correct in saying, we are not suppose to discuss religion or politics in the forums.

We are here to discuss celiac disease, gluten intolerance, and gluten sensitivity. We discuss the foods we can and can not eat. I love pork and would love to have some right now. I love a good burger and I used to love fried chicken. I do not eat fried food anymore and I can't have most meats, yet I am happy for those of you who can.

Deb

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We are here to discuss celiac disease, gluten intolerance, and gluten sensitivity. We discuss the foods we can and can not eat. I love pork and would love to have some right now. I love a good burger and I used to love fried chicken. I do not eat fried food anymore and I can't have most meats, yet I am happy for those of you who can.

Deb

You know what I could go for right now....some ice cream, we finally have springlike weather and I want a summery treat. There was too many below 20 days here in the last few weeks. Sorry I got off topic. :) Debs post just made me reply.

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