New Gluten Free Level Of 20ppm To Be Accepted Wordwide

[irish daveyboy]

Hi All,

While researching the new Codex levels of 20PPM as the New World Standard.

.

I came across a Visual of 1,000,000 (one Million).

When I saw how infinitesimally small 20 was in comparison 1 million I was amazed.

.

This is probably the first time you've seen exactly what 20 parts per million actually looks like.

.

Bear in mind each of the small squares represent 100,

then 20 = 1/5 of a small square !!

.

This is Mind Boggling Stuff!!!!.....You need to scroll right to see 1 million

.

Open Original Shared Link

.

Best Regards,

David

[ravenwoodglass]

It is nice to see that they are doing worldwide standards and we are not going to have things like 200ppm in one country and 20ppm in another. I do so hope though that they also require that labels have clearly listed gluten ingredients even if the gluten has been 'processed' out. Not all of us eat just a single serving of a food, and if we have multiple items in the course of our day that all have 20ppm of gluten then we would not just be getting 20ppm that day. Some of us react to very, very infintesimal amounts of gluten and we want to know if gluten ingredients are included or part of the processing. If setting a 'safe' gluten level means companies are allowed to hide it then I personally don't feel any safer with this ruling.

[kenlove]

Sure is a lot of cut and paste on the computer, not to mention the first 100 dots!

It will be nice to have some worldwide standards although I'll still be paranoid about

any gluten.

Happy Birthday too!

Ken

Hi All,

While researching the new Codex levels of 20PPM as the New World Standard.

.

I came across a Visual of 1,000,000 (one Million).

When I saw how infinitesimally small 20 was in comparison 1 million I was amazed.

.

This is probably the first time you've seen exactly what 20 parts per million actually looks like.

.

Bear in mind each of the small squares represent 100,

then 20 = 1/5 of a small square !!

.

This is Mind Boggling Stuff!!!!.....You need to scroll right to see 1 million

.

Open Original Shared Link

.

Best Regards,

David

[Tim-n-VA]

It is nice to see that they are doing worldwide standards and we are not going to have things like 200ppm in one country and 20ppm in another. I do so hope though that they also require that labels have clearly listed gluten ingredients even if the gluten has been 'processed' out. Not all of us eat just a single serving of a food, and if we have multiple items in the course of our day that all have 20ppm of gluten then we would not just be getting 20ppm that day. Some of us react to very, very infintesimal amounts of gluten and we want to know if gluten ingredients are included or part of the processing. If setting a 'safe' gluten level means companies are allowed to hide it then I personally don't feel any safer with this ruling.

If everything you eat has 20 ppm of something, you consume 20 ppm no matter how many servings you have. The denominator and numerator of that fraction both are increasing.

Edit to add: The comments below explain this better. I meant that the denominator and the numerator of the fraction that you use to calculate the ratio (i.e. standardize the denominator to one million) are both changing as you eat more. Using the million dots from the original post, if 20 of those are gluten and you eat all of the dots, you have consumed 20 ppm. If you eat two million, you have consumed 40 dots of gluten but your total consumption is two million so the ratio is 40 over 2,000,000 or 20 ppm.

[ravenwoodglass]

If everything you eat has 20 ppm of something, you consume 20 ppm no matter how many servings you have. The denominator and numerator of that fraction both are increasing.

Rule for Addition of Fractions

When adding fractions, you must make sure that the fractions being added have the same denominator. Then, simply add the numerators of the fractions.

Thus if I have 5 servings of a food that has a 20pmm it would be :

20/1mil + 20/1mil + 20/1mil + 20/1mil +20/1mil = 100/1mil or 100ppm

[tarnalberry]

no so much.

if you have $100 and I take 2%.

if you have another $100, and I take 2% again.

repeat 8 more times.

...

...

you've, over the course of this time, gotten $1000. I have $20. that's still just 2%.

(you'll note that this is the equivalent of 20,000ppm.

but it's harder to make representable math with 0.002%, or $1 out of $50,000.)

If you want to make it make more sense, stop fiddling with fractions, densities, etc. and just calculate amounts.

[psawyer]

no so much.

if you have $100 and I take 2%.

if you have another $100, and I take 2% again.

repeat 8 more times.

...

...

you've, over the course of this time, gotten $1000. I have $20. that's still just 2%.

(you'll note that this is the equivalent of 20,000ppm.

but it's harder to make representable math with 0.002%, or $1 out of $50,000.)

If you want to make it make more sense, stop fiddling with fractions, densities, etc. and just calculate amounts.

What Tiffany said is right. This is not about adding fractional numbers. Yes, if you add half a gram to half a gram, you do get a gram.

These are ratios, and the numerator and denominator are both changing. You can take 20 ppm of an ounce, or 20ppm of a ton--the ratio is still 20ppm.

[Tim-n-VA]

Rule for Addition of Fractions

When adding fractions, you must make sure that the fractions being added have the same denominator. Then, simply add the numerators of the fractions.

Thus if I have 5 servings of a food that has a 20pmm it would be :

20/1mil + 20/1mil + 20/1mil + 20/1mil +20/1mil = 100/1mil or 100ppm

I edited my post above to clarify but no. You would have consumed 100 units of gluten while consuming 5 million units of food. That is still 20 ppm.

[ravenwoodglass]

I do understand that the ratio is going to remain the same. My issue is that if you are consuming multiple servings at 20 ppm that the total amount is going to add up. If you are get 20ppm from one food and 20 ppm from another food, and 20 ppm from another food etc those 20 ppm are going to add up in your system. The food is going to stay at the same ratio but the amount of gluten is going to add up. It will not change in the ratio of the food at that level but the total consumed is going to add up. To say it won't is like saying eating something with 10 grams of protein in the morning and eating something with 10 grams of protein at lunch then having dinner with 10 grams of protein is still only giving you only 10 grams of protein, it isn't it is giving you 30 grams of protein total for the day.

A better analogy might be with alcoholic beverages. Using your logic I would have the same BAC consuming 10 drinks as I would consuming one. Sure each drink had the same ratio of alcohol in it but it adds up in the body. My issue is not that the ratio of how much gluten is in a food would increase but that the total amount consumed would add up. Just as it does with alcohol.

[Tim-n-VA]

A better analogy might be with alcoholic beverages. Using your logic I would have the same BAC consuming 10 drinks as I would consuming one. Sure each drink had the same ratio of alcohol in it but it adds up in the body. My issue is not that the ratio of how much gluten is in a food would increase but that the total amount consumed would add up. Just as it does with alcohol.

That isn't the "logic" of anyone posting in this thread.

[ravenwoodglass]

That isn't the "logic" of anyone posting in this thread.

Either your misunderstanding me or I am misunderstanding you. I gave my opinion to the original question and explained why I simply want clear labels. I just don't want gluten hidden in my food because it tests below the 'offically accepted safe level'. For me low level consumption repeatedly throughout my days would be a problem. If it isn't a concern for others that's okay too.

[Mike M]

I do understand that the ratio is going to remain the same. My issue is that if you are consuming multiple servings at 20 ppm that the total amount is going to add up. If you are get 20ppm from one food and 20 ppm from another food, and 20 ppm from another food etc those 20 ppm are going to add up in your system. The food is going to stay at the same ratio but the amount of gluten is going to add up. It will not change in the ratio of the food at that level but the total consumed is going to add up. To say it won't is like saying eating something with 10 grams of protein in the morning and eating something with 10 grams of protein at lunch then having dinner with 10 grams of protein is still only giving you only 10 grams of protein, it isn't it is giving you 30 grams of protein total for the day.

A better analogy might be with alcoholic beverages. Using your logic I would have the same BAC consuming 10 drinks as I would consuming one. Sure each drink had the same ratio of alcohol in it but it adds up in the body. My issue is not that the ratio of how much gluten is in a food would increase but that the total amount consumed would add up. Just as it does with alcohol.

Bingo Ravenwoodglass! How much gluten I consume, determines the severity of my reaction. For me, just one average food or drink item at 20 parts per million (or there about) and I have a reaction. I don't understand why this is the case and others seem to have little to no reaction. Seems logical to me though that even those that are not seeing or feeling a reaction, still must be reacting or at a minimum the gluten exposure is building up. If this was not so, how did they ever come to the point of knowing they had Celiac in the first place? I am aware of the so called 30 mg per day and it is still OK.....Seems hard to believe. I am glad also to see they are putting limits on the allowable gluten content, it is better than nothing. All the best, Mike

[irish daveyboy]

I do understand that the ratio is going to remain the same. My issue is that if you are consuming multiple servings at 20 ppm that the total amount is going to add up. If you are get 20ppm from one food and 20 ppm from another food, and 20 ppm from another food etc those 20 ppm are going to add up in your system. The food is going to stay at the same ratio but the amount of gluten is going to add up. It will not change in the ratio of the food at that level but the total consumed is going to add up. To say it won't is like saying eating something with 10 grams of protein in the morning and eating something with 10 grams of protein at lunch then having dinner with 10 grams of protein is still only giving you only 10 grams of protein, it isn't it is giving you 30 grams of protein total for the day.

A better analogy might be with alcoholic beverages. Using your logic I would have the same BAC consuming 10 drinks as I would consuming one. Sure each drink had the same ratio of alcohol in it but it adds up in the body. My issue is not that the ratio of how much gluten is in a food would increase but that the total amount consumed would add up. Just as it does with alcohol.

Hi,

so by your own analogy, if you had 3 doctor appointments in 1 week.

.

On Monday you visit your GP he tells you your 10% overweight

.

On Wednesday you visit your GI, he tells you your 10% overweight

.

On Thursday your Dietitian tells you your 10% overweight

.

So on Friday you must be 30% overweight (cumulative overweight readings)

.

SORRY Doesn't work like that. !!!

.

Best Regards,

David

[Jestgar]

I do understand that the ratio is going to remain the same. My issue is that if you are consuming multiple servings at 20 ppm that the total amount is going to add up.

I'm backing the Raven on this one.

Sure, my chip has only 20 parts gluten to (almost) 1 million parts of whatever, but if I eat 100 chips, I've eaten 2,000 parts of gluten, regardless of how much whatever. All the number means is that you can eat more before having a reaction (assuming consumption within a short period of time, and 'short' will vary among individuals).

[jerseyangel]

I'm backing the Raven on this one.

Sure, my chip has only 20 parts gluten to (almost) 1 million parts of whatever, but if I eat 100 chips, I've eaten 2,000 parts of gluten, regardless of how much whatever. All the number means is that you can eat more before having a reaction (assuming consumption within a short period of time, and 'short' will vary among individuals).

Thank you!

[nikki-uk]

Ok, I don't do Math(s) but this I know:

If my hubby has 2 slices of bread with codex for breakfast (currently 200ppm) he is fine

If he has another 2 slices lunchtime he seems fine

Another 2 slices with dinner???............long appointment in the loo!

Accumulative affect, no?

[jerseyangel]

Accumulative affect, no?

All I know is that a cumulative effect will take place for me when I "discover" a new product, think I'm ok with it, eat it every day, and then when I begin to feel sick, find out that it was not as safe as I thought.

The way I see this whole thing--the math(s) were all correct as far as that goes, but Ravenwood was reasoning in a different direction.

Hope that came out right......

[ravenwoodglass]

Ok, I don't do Math(s) but this I know:

If my hubby has 2 slices of bread with codex for breakfast (currently 200ppm) he is fine

If he has another 2 slices lunchtime he seems fine

Another 2 slices with dinner???............long appointment in the loo!

Accumulative affect, no?

That's what I was talking about. I sometimes don't put things as clearly as I would like. I was referring to the cumulative effect but I guess I didn't express it well.

Thanks to everyone who helped clarify what I was trying to say.

[sbj]

Perhaps Table III-1 at the below will help:

Open Original Shared Link

If you consume 50 grams (g) of 'gluten-free' food that contains 20 parts per million (ppm) gluten, then you will have consumed 1 microgram (mg) of gluten.

If you consume 300 g of 'gluten-free' food that contains 20 ppm gluten then you will have consumed 6 mg of gluten.

Personally I have no idea what my daily microgram limit of gluten should be to prevent mucosal damage, but I am hoping that if I eat less than 100 grams of gluten free flour products a day and those products are cerrtified to be less than 20 ppm gluten then I should be okay because I will be ingesting no more than 2 micrograms of gluten daily.

[Tim-n-VA]

Perhaps I'm getting hung up on semantics but it seems that there are mulitple concepts being used inconsistently.

First there is he idea that there is a threshold, a total amount of gluten than can be consumed without reaction. The study linked by SBJ indicates that is probably between 10 and 50 mg. If you don't accept that, than nothing other than zero gluten is acceptable.

Next there is the amount of gluten in a fixed amount of the food. This is given in parts per million to standardize for comparing. If it helps, it is like the unit price on the shelf at the supermarket that allows you to easily compare when both the price and amount are different.

Next is the total amount of the food consumed.

Then we have the total amount of gluten consumed. If you know the ratio and the amount you consume, you can calculate the amount of gluten.

Still, that is a lot of calculation even for someone who is comfortable with the math. The solution is to pick a threshold and to calculate an average amount of food consumed per day. Using that you can figure out what the reasonable CODEX ppm should be.

IF you accept that 50 mg of gluten is tolerated, you can either eat 5.5 pounds of 20 ppm food or you can eat half a pound of 200 ppm food.

IF you only want the 10 mg threshold, those numbers are 1.1 pounds of 20 ppm or .1 pound of 200 ppm food.

Of course, if the acceptable threshold is 50 mg and you are eating 200 ppm food but you eat more that half a pound you will exceed the threshold. But you will still only be consuming 200 ppm food.

Nikki-UK's example could fit this if the assumption was that daily servings was four slices of bread per day.

[irish daveyboy]

Ok, I don't do Math(s) but this I know:

If my hubby has 2 slices of bread with codex for breakfast (currently 200ppm) he is fine

If he has another 2 slices lunchtime he seems fine

Another 2 slices with dinner???............long appointment in the loo!

Accumulative affect, no?

.

Hi Nikki,

If eating 6 slices of gluten-free bread in a day that contains 200PPM causes a reaction!

then i stands to reason that,

Eating 60 slices of gluten-free bread that contains 20PPM will cause the same effect.

.

Numbers are being bandied around.

.

Eating multiple items increases the quantity but the percentage remains the same.

.

Eating 1 potato chip contains .002% gluten

.

Eating 1 Bag of potato chips contains .002% gluten

.

Eating 500 loaves of bread contains .002% gluten.

.

Assume a loaf weighs 1 Kg or 1,000g or 100,000mg

then 500 loaves = 50,000,000 mg @ 20PPm =1000mg or

20 days quota of safe level of Gluten intake.

.

somehow I don't think anybody is likely to eat 500 loaves in 20 days or 25 loaves in 1 day.

.

Best Regards,

David

[dilettantesteph]

My GI says that some celiacs have a reaction to as little as 0.5 mg. A 20 ppm product would give you that in 25 g. which is one slice of bread.

[tom]

If you consume 50 grams (g) of 'gluten-free' food that contains 20 parts per million (ppm) gluten, then you will have consumed 1 microgram (mg) of gluten.

If you consume 300 g of 'gluten-free' food that contains 20 ppm gluten then you will have consumed 6 mg of gluten.

Personally I have no idea what my daily microgram limit of gluten should be to prevent mucosal damage, but I am hoping that if I eat less than 100 grams of gluten free flour products a day and those products are cerrtified to be less than 20 ppm gluten then I should be okay because I will be ingesting no more than 2 micrograms of gluten daily.

Micrograms?? I'm sure you mean milligrams, which, of course is abbrev mg.

Micrograms are abbrev as ug, in lieu of a greek alphabet typewriter w/ a lower-case Mu.

[irish daveyboy]

Micrograms?? I'm sure you mean milligrams, which, of course is abbrev mg.

Micrograms are abbrev as ug, in lieu of a greek alphabet typewriter w/ a lower-case Mu.

Hi Tom,

The annotation for microgram is generally accepted as mcg.

.

kg = Kilogram or 1,000 grammes (g)

g = gram or 100 miligrams (mg)

mg = miligram or 100 micrograms (mcg)

.

Best Regards,

David

[sbj]

Hi Tom, The annotation for microgram is generally accepted as mcg.

.

kg = Kilogram or 1,000 grammes (g)

g = gram or 100 miligrams (mg)

mg = miligram or 100 micrograms (mcg)

.

Best Regards,

David

Yes, didn't think I had misread that report (although no one's perfect). It seemed to me that the study I referenced was using 'mg' as the abbreviation for micrograms (and several sources indicate that mg is an acceptable acronym for microgram). mcg, however, seems much more clear to me.

In context, the article seems to indeed be referring to a tolerable level of micrograms and not to milligrams of gluten. That is, us celiacs may be able to tolerate 6 millionths of a gram daily and not 6 thousandths of a gram.