Fruit And Vegetables

[IrishHeart]

That's really all I want: to be healthy.

I understand totally. That's all I want too! Years of this BS is quite enough for me!

[IrishHeart]

The FDA has stated that they might contain gluten.

Open Original Shared Link

I'm sure that it is at levels considered safe for celiacs.

Yes, but that level is controversial to begin with, isn't it.

Okay, well thanks to you--to all of you--for your thoughts on this subject.

The most difficult part of all this is we live in the Great Northeast. While my friend in California can grow her own produce and have her hens lay eggs year round, we cannot. We rely on shipments of produce coming in from everywhere and we pay dearly for it OR we have apples, rutabagas, etc. that are coated to keep them "fresh". Our own summer garden can only produce so much.

Time to move?

[pricklypear1971]

Yes, but that level is controversial to begin with, isn't it.

Okay, well thanks to you--to all of you--for your thoughts on this subject.

The most difficult part of all this is we live in the Great Northeast. While my friend in California can grow her own produce and have her hens lay eggs year round, we cannot. We rely on shipments of produce coming in from everywhere and we pay dearly for it OR we have apples, rutabagas, etc. that are coated to keep them "fresh". Our own summer garden can only produce so much.

Time to move?

Perhaps.

Pits and grow lights? Many veggies can be grown in pots - tomatoes, potatoes, herbs, peppers.... Apples can be kept in a cellar for a while after harvest....

Find a local permaculture group.

[IrishHeart]

Perhaps.

Pits and grow lights? Many veggies can be grown in pots - tomatoes, potatoes, herbs, peppers.... Apples can be kept in a cellar for a while after harvest....

Find a local permaculture group.

Oh, yes.... we have done all that! Even hydroponics. Our basement was lit up like crazy all winter one year, our electric bill soared. We live in the country on a quiet dirt road , (no street lights or anyone around for miles on 3 sides) and I am sure our closest neighbors wondered ....just what ARE they doing in that house?... I was waiting for the state troopers to come and see if we were growing something we shouldn't be....

I am in chronic horrible pain (a result of long UnDxed celiac) so for now, all of that has been tabled, but thank you for the suggestion. In time, perhaps we can resume it.

[T.H.]

Stephanie, do you know what is in these coatings on fruits? Has someone in the produce industry written about this? I am curious. Thanks!

I'm gonna have more of a response to some other stuff later when I've got some more time, but just wanted to respond to this really quick. :-) Some of the most detailed, accessible sources I've seen for this sort of thing are actually from the various groups/councils that determine if a food is kosher. These folks have to know precise details about the ingredients of every part of the food, including incidental ingredients on packaging, how it was handled, and what contacted what.

Kind of an eye opener, reading everything that they needed to take into consideration. Admittedly, most of their information isn't concerned with gluten, but many times all of the details concerning a product/produce are mentioned in the articles I've come across, so there has still been some benefit.

In the industry itself, it's very hard to find the information out without a lot of work, picking up details here and there, talking with farmers and calling up companies. Even then, sometimes you simply can't get the information because they've labeled it proprietary. I tried for a while to see if there was any group or entity that had a convenient list of farming practices, or a list of substances commonly used. The answer seems to be a resounding no. Some have a few practices, or some lists of some substances used (but not the ingredients of those substances).

Cynthia Kupper at the GIG is very involved with the food industry and I hear she's been pushing to get more transparency on this type of thing within the food and farming industry. But sounds like if it's going to happen, it ain't happening soon.

[IrishHeart]

I'm gonna have more of a response to some other stuff later when I've got some more time, but just wanted to respond to this really quick. :-) Some of the most detailed, accessible sources I've seen for this sort of thing are actually from the various groups/councils that determine if a food is kosher. These folks have to know precise details about the ingredients of every part of the food, including incidental ingredients on packaging, how it was handled, and what contacted what.

Kind of an eye opener, reading everything that they needed to take into consideration. Admittedly, most of their information isn't concerned with gluten, but many times all of the details concerning a product/produce are mentioned in the articles I've come across, so there has still been some benefit.

In the industry itself, it's very hard to find the information out without a lot of work, picking up details here and there, talking with farmers and calling up companies. Even then, sometimes you simply can't get the information because they've labeled it proprietary. I tried for a while to see if there was any group or entity that had a convenient list of farming practices, or a list of substances commonly used. The answer seems to be a resounding no. Some have a few practices, or some lists of some substances used (but not the ingredients of those substances).

Cynthia Kupper at the GIG is very involved with the food industry and I hear she's been pushing to get more transparency on this type of thing within the food and farming industry. But sounds like if it's going to happen, it ain't happening soon.

Thanks. I read some of the updated FDA info and I agree--GIG is more on top of things. I have read so much research in the last 2 years, my eyeballs are tired.

I must be doing things "right" so far. I had my check up today and my blood panels are great! If I could get the bone/muscle pain to subside, I'd be really happy. Doc says bone and nerve pain takes the longest to resolve. (aw crap! )

I have to say, I thought I was sensitive, but some of you guys really have to take extraordinary precautions. I commend you for being so diligent.

My doctor says I had the worst symptoms he ever saw in a celiac and that I worked hard to get my life back.

I said you should meet some of the amazing people on celiac.com. Their stories will blow you away. This THING is more than just "give up gluten and all will be well"....

[jerseyangel]

My doctor says I had the worst symptoms he ever saw in a celiac and that I worked hard to get my life back.

Congratulations on that, Irish! I know that was nice to hear

[IrishHeart]

Congratulations on that, Irish! I know that was nice to hear

Thanks, Patti ...it was validating indeed. He actually teared up when he saw how bad it had become for me and that not one of the doctors I saw in 3 years could see it (not even my former GI doc for 12 years! I mean, really, I lost 90 lbs. without trying, not to mention dozens of other symptoms ). I figured it out myself and he said that many of his colleagues do not even believe that celiac is as prevalent as he KNOWS it is. He is a young guy, so hopefully, the NEW breed "gets it".

There is still so much to be learned about this disease.

[jerseyangel]

There is still so much to be learned about this disease.

So true.

[IrishHeart]

So true.

cute squirrel, BTW

[jerseyangel]

cute squirrel, BTW

Thanks--he literally came with the house! The former owners told us about him--I leave food out for him every morning. Sometimes he's already out there waiting for me from the top of the neighbor's fence.

[IrishHeart]

Thanks--he literally came with the house! The former owners told us about him--I leave food out for him every morning. Sometimes he's already out there waiting for me from the top of the neighbor's fence.

That's just too cool !!!

[T.H.]

Might be in teeny print on the stickers? Will take a magnifying glass or ask an 8 yr old to read it.

As I understand it, the stores themselves are supposed to have an easy to read sign for any produce that has a wax coating. It can be right next to the produce itself, or a generic sign that warns which fruits or veggies may have a wax coating. However, the rule is often not followed.

A cleveland news station checked with 8 different grocery stores to see if they were doing what they were supposed to in terms of letting consumers know about the wax. 5 of them were not disclosing the required information. Of the three stores that gave the information, only one had a sign that was actually easy to find.

(news story can be found here: Open Original Shared Link )

[T.H.]

I must be doing things "right" so far. I had my check up today and my blood panels are great!

Oh congratulations, that's wonderful! I hope the rest of it resolves before too long, too.

I never really understood what a huge thing it was to be able to say 'it's getting better.' I mean, my own issues? They weren't that bad before going gluten-free. Compared to so many here, my own issues are puny, small potatoes kind of stuff. No major surgeries, or permanently damaged organs, no other auto-immune diseases (crossing fingers) or anything of that nature.

It's amazing to me the fortitude and sheer determination that many of the people here have exhibited just to regain a measure of good health. Freaking inspires me, honest to god.

[T.H.]

It was the other way around. The extremely supersensitive people who treated their Lyme disease were eventually able to eat gluten (and many other foods) again, once the Lyme was treated... I guess the main point is: hypersensitivity often seems to be caused by something other than celiac alone. It's worth investigating...

So basically, the hypersensitivity to gluten was present, but the body was influenced by other conditions that were also present, so once those other issues were resolved, the body's sensitivity levels dropped back to normal? For some, anyway. Is that right?

If I'm understanding that right, that is very, very interesting, considering I do have one other condition. If yeast overgrowth or other fungal issues might have a similar effect on some people, to heighten their sensitivity, that could be spot on for me. I contracted Valley Fever a few years back, a disease caused by a local fungus, and my immune system was so shot that it disseminated. The fungus escaped my lungs and infected the rest of my body, basically.

The only crummy part is that there's no cure for Valley Fever, so if this were the cause of my own super-sensitivity to gluten, there's no easy fix. But it would be, I dunno, comforting to know another piece of the puzzle to my own body, you know? Heck, maybe if I look at diets that might help inhibit fungal growth, perhaps it might affect my sensitivity level, for all I know. Wouldn't hurt to check, anyway!

Thanks for mentioning this. :-)

[pricklypear1971]

So basically, the hypersensitivity to gluten was present, but the body was influenced by other conditions that were also present, so once those other issues were resolved, the body's sensitivity levels dropped back to normal? For some, anyway. Is that right?

If I'm understanding that right, that is very, very interesting, considering I do have one other condition. If yeast overgrowth or other fungal issues might have a similar effect on some people, to heighten their sensitivity, that could be spot on for me. I contracted Valley Fever a few years back, a disease caused by a local fungus, and my immune system was so shot that it disseminated. The fungus escaped my lungs and infected the rest of my body, basically.

The only crummy part is that there's no cure for Valley Fever, so if this were the cause of my own super-sensitivity to gluten, there's no easy fix. But it would be, I dunno, comforting to know another piece of the puzzle to my own body, you know? Heck, maybe if I look at diets that might help inhibit fungal growth, perhaps it might affect my sensitivity level, for all I know. Wouldn't hurt to check, anyway!

Thanks for mentioning this. :-)

Ooh, valley fever can be BAD. Lethal, actually. Ironic how most people are asymptomatic, but it really hurts others.

[psawyer]

Shauna, if you will take just one thought from me, it is this. Consider Lyme disease. A number of formerly frequent participants here who were experiencing extreme reactions to gluten and other foods which did not, in fact, contain gluten found their answer there. I am not trying to diagnose anything, just raising awareness of a possible answer.

There is a Lyme disease topic here.

Carla and Bev are not here a lot anymore, but will likely reply if you send them a message. If you want, send me a Personal Conversation here and I will provide other contact information.

[T.H.]

For what it's worth...my husband, a chemist with 30+ years experience, thinks transfer ONTO the plant is more feasible than the plant taking it up through the roots.

He also suspects the jalapeno juice was somehow possibly tranferred to the tomatoes themselves (like by wind transfer ?? ) rather than actually absorbed into the soil and then absorbed by the roots of the plant. Steric hindrance would prevent a molecule that large from entering the roots of the plant.

He explained more about ionization, but it got complicated for me...

ha, My hubby's a science geek too, and sometimes I'm sure I get that glazed stare when he starts getting too in depth for me, LOL.

The study I cited earlier did find evidence of full proteins making it intact into the roots, but it mentioned that the study was being performed in the first place because there was a lot of disagreement in the botany community about whether this was even possible, and they were trying to see whether it was or not.

However, the intact proteins didn't seem to survive much past the outer edges of the root vegetables, and the assumption is that some of the proteases (I think I've got the term right) were starting to break them down. How quickly they are broken down, and what level of 'pieces' could be found where after that point, is unknown. Probably pretty quickly, though. It also seemed dependent on species and on the presence of rootlets.

(as a total aside...If all the theories about absorption from poopy/fertilizer is correct, then why wouldn't we just spread chocolate and have everything taste so yummy? )

So, I haven't looked for research on this at ALL, but there's a lot of gardening/farming lore on things to add to the soil, or to leave out, because it supposedly affects the taste of the produce. I know a number of citrus growers (small farmers, not big operations) that add sugar to the soil and claim it makes their oranges sweeter. onions and garlic supposedly affect the flavor of some foods.

If it's true, I imagine only some substances would be uptaken by some plants, with a variety of effects from greener leaves to changes in flavor. Again, I haven't looked at this at all, but there's enough belief in it among gardeners that it seems worth checking out someday.

...although I'll tell you right now, if we could flavor things with chocolate, I would be planting chocolate bars throughout my yard! Mmmm, chocolate flavored rasberries!

Is it possible that you guys are just feeling ill from something else? Pesticides or other contaminants?

It's something I often wonder about, and I'm with Steph - I think it's possible. But just like her, following the gluten trail and avoiding it seems to work best for me, so for the moment, I'm focusing most on that.

That said, I definitely do have other issues and I actually think all this research into the food supply can really help identify some of those for people. For example, finding out all the chemicals and substances used for various fruits, I was able to make a connection between a pesticide and headaches I was experiencing. Kind of nice to get the pain to stop, once I knew what to look for.

Are your antibodies still high?? Is that how you know these foods are gluten-tainted ?

Before I was diagnosed, my thyroid numbers were getting steadily worse, my vitamin levels were okay (I overate a lot), I was overweight, and my antibody numbers were high, but not severely high. Lots of pain and vertigo and such.

After a couple weeks of massive gluten-free product binging, my diet that first gluten-free year had an oil and a salt as my most processed food that I ate regularly. I would try a gluten-free product every once in a while, I had a whole grain or two I ate, and I bought my produce from the grocery store. My entire house was gluten-free about 2 months into the diet, with new cutting boards and my own special pans that only I used. I might try to eat out once every month or two.

With that level of care, in my checkups over the first year, my antibody levels had dropped but were still above normal. My thyroid numbers were deteriorating steadily, and my vitamin levels were actually dropping rather than improving. My weight dropped drastically, so I went from overweight to mildly underweight within about 6 months. Lots of physical issues that just wouldn't go away, on top of this.

Almost a year after I started eating a 'super-sensitive' diet, getting produce from the farmer's market and that sort of thing, I had another set of checkups. My thyroid numbers are down to normal, my villi are healed up, my antibody levels are good, and my vitamin levels returned to normal, too, including vitamin D, which was the weirdest one as I don't eat anything with this, merely go outside to get enough sun (both with good and bad numbers). My weight stabilized, too.

Better yet was the pain and vertigo finally went away on the second diet, within about 4 weeks of starting it.

Gluten molecules penetrating into fruits and veggies that have skins that may have been touched at some point by a farm hand who ate a sandwich seems pretty incredible to me

I don't usually assume penetration for something like that, or even for a lot of these substances, actually, I just assume that I'm missing cleaning all of it OFF of the produce, you know? Often simply because the produce has crevices and areas that I can't clean off properly, or it's too soft to scrub.

And if a coating is put on after a fruit has been contaminated with gluten, for example, then I have to be able to scrub off the coating just to get to the gluten underneath, as opposed to a simple wash, you know?

If the fruit/veggie was hardy enough that I could scrub the crud out of it, and it was completely smooth, it would be a lot of work but I imagine most of it would be cleanable, especially if it was just something involving contact after full ripening.

Right now, I'm in the middle of trying to research what may or may not be absorbed when it comes to produce. Wish I was a faster researcher, LOL.

It's easy enough to find claims, but harder to track down more than that. According to some watch groups, for example, fruits and veggies without natural protective coatings (like peaches) are more likely to absorb pesticides below the skin and into the flesh. But finding actual hard fact about this, and the size of the molecules involved, and the mechanism involved...eh, that's taking a bit longer.

I'll be posting whatever I find here, when I finally get it all collected.

[T.H.]

Shauna, if you will take just one thought from me, it is this. Consider Lyme disease.

Appreciate the thought. :-) Due to my location, Lyme Disease rather unlikely, but as we all know, though, doesn't mean it's impossible. I'm curious if they tested for it in the last round of tests or not, when the docs were kind of grasping at straws.

[dilettantesteph]

The most difficult part of all this is we live in the Great Northeast.

Me too. Upstate New York. I've got grow lights in the basement and I'm trying garden covers this winter.

[dilettantesteph]

Find a local permaculture group.

Thanks for that suggestion. I hadn't heard of that before. I found one and signed up for a meeting.

[dilettantesteph]

Can gluten be present in produce after washing and peeling?

Pesticides can be, maybe gluten can too.

Open Original Shared Link

I would think that it doesn't have to mean that the pesticides penetrate the skin. It is possible that it is transferred to the inside of the fruit during peeling.

[IrishHeart]

Me too. Upstate New York. I've got grow lights in the basement and I'm trying garden covers this winter.

Ditto. Upstate NY. Let's hope this winter isn't as bad as last year! acck!!

See my earlier comment @ grow lights in the basement.

Hope you have good luck with it!!!

[IrishHeart]

It's something I often wonder about, and I'm with Steph - I think it's possible. But just like her, following the gluten trail and avoiding it seems to work best for me, so for the moment, I'm focusing most on that.

That said, I definitely do have other issues and I actually think all this research into the food supply can really help identify some of those for people. For example, finding out all the chemicals and substances used for various fruits, I was able to make a connection between a pesticide and headaches I was experiencing. Kind of nice to get the pain to stop, once I knew what to look for.

Then, if it is working and you feel better, you should continue to do whatever you think is best for you. Apparently, some of us do not think all that extra soap washing is necessary, but if you do, then continue to do what makes you feel best!

I tend to think it is the pesticides myself, but I could be wrong. (It would not be the first time or the last! )

While we may not agree on the issue of how much gluten may actually be present after washing or if it can travel/survive via poop, we agree on this: Do whatever it takes to stop feeling lousy.

I did. I would not quit until I found out what was slowly killing me and I continue to work hard to get where I once was: "normal" and sane and able to physically function once more.

In the end, achieving good health is all that really matters.

Best wishes to you!

IH