Amount Of Gluten In Single, Small Bread Crumb?

[powerofpositivethinking]

so I'm visiting my parents this weekend, and they've gotten so much better with understanding the gluten-free diet, but my Dad still doesn't fully get it.  He made the comment that a few breadcrumbs won't hurt  

 

so I know with the new labeling law gluten-free products have to be under 20ppm, but my question is how much gluten is actually in a single, small bread crumb from a loaf of gluten containing bread?  I've searched some on the internet, but if anyone has a credible source/link they can supply me with for the next time he makes that comment, I'd like to be ready 

 

my aunt who works in a local organic/health food grocery store and prepares gluten free items for the store even explained about cross contamination to my Dad, but it's like it went in one ear and out the other 

 

begin rant:  I watched my mom set a hot dog bun directly onto their kitchen counter, and it is their house, so I didn't want to make a big deal of it.  However when they offer to make something, I can't trust them to make it without CCing it based on my Dad's comments and my Mom's handling of food.  Here's the cream of the crop...last weekend my mom told me she ate some wheat bran pancakes for breakfast on an empty stomach, and then she used the restroom nine times that day with D and had painful stomach cramps.  With 9 times in one day there's no way she can blame it solely on fiber content, so she decides to tell me afterwards, "I think I may have a tiny bit of a gluten intolerance."  She stressed the word tiny.  Really I wanted to reach through the phone to shake her and say you either have or you don't, and considering you have a daughter that can't eat it maybe you should quit eating gluten too.  She seems to alternate between C and D a lot more lately, but what do I know, I'm just the younger daughter who's trying to figure this stuff out.  She frequently tells me her stomach is 'rockin and rollin' and she thinks it's funny, but I really want to tell her it's not normal for that to happen so often.  I do a little silent scream in my head every time she says that.  She's a busy person, and often complains of being tired, and her memory is not good.  She'll tell me the same story four times, and then gets mad at me when I tell her you've already told me that.  She is a breast cancer survivor, and she's always been so strong, so it frustrates me that giving up something I think would very much improve her quality of life, she is very resistant.  Change can be scary, but I truly believe this change for her would be for the better...end rant.

[kareng]

Here is a summary of a study that was conducted. They looked for damage in the small intestines. So...in a way, your parents might be right that the tiny crumb won't hurt you. But, can they guarantee that that is the only tiny crumb you get all day? Of course not. So we need to eliminate tiny crumbs we know about, to help protect ourselves from the ones we don't know about.

"Dr. Fasano and his colleagues say that many or most people with celiac disease can handle up to 10 milligrams of gluten — the equivalent of 1/8th of a teaspoon of flour, or 1/350th of that slice of bread — in their diets each day without experiencing adverse effects. The study frequently is cited as evidence that celiacs can handle "gluten-free"-labeled foods with up to 20 parts per million of gluten in them."

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[flowerqueen]

so I'm visiting my parents this weekend, and they've gotten so much better with understanding the gluten-free diet, but my Dad still doesn't fully get it.  He made the comment that a few breadcrumbs won't hurt  

 

so I know with the new labeling law gluten-free products have to be under 20ppm, but my question is how much gluten is actually in a single, small bread crumb from a loaf of gluten containing bread?  I've searched some on the internet, but if anyone has a credible source/link they can supply me with for the next time he makes that comment, I'd like to be ready 

 

my aunt who works in a local organic/health food grocery store and prepares gluten free items for the store even explained about cross contamination to my Dad, but it's like it went in one ear and out the other 

 

begin rant:  I watched my mom set a hot dog bun directly onto their kitchen counter, and it is their house, so I didn't want to make a big deal of it.  However when they offer to make something, I can't trust them to make it without CCing it based on my Dad's comments and my Mom's handling of food.  Here's the cream of the crop...last weekend my mom told me she ate some wheat bran pancakes for breakfast on an empty stomach, and then she used the restroom nine times that day with D and had painful stomach cramps.  With 9 times in one day there's no way she can blame it solely on fiber content, so she decides to tell me afterwards, "I think I may have a tiny bit of a gluten intolerance."  She stressed the word tiny.  Really I wanted to reach through the phone to shake her and say you either have or you don't, and considering you have a daughter that can't eat it maybe you should quit eating gluten too.  She seems to alternate between C and D a lot more lately, but what do I know, I'm just the younger daughter who's trying to figure this stuff out.  She frequently tells me her stomach is 'rockin and rollin' and she thinks it's funny, but I really want to tell her it's not normal for that to happen so often.  I do a little silent scream in my head every time she says that.  She's a busy person, and often complains of being tired, and her memory is not good.  She'll tell me the same story four times, and then gets mad at me when I tell her you've already told me that.  She is a breast cancer survivor, and she's always been so strong, so it frustrates me that giving up something I think would very much improve her quality of life, she is very resistant.  Change can be scary, but I truly believe this change for her would be for the better...end rant.

I know what you mean, I have similar problems with my mum. One minute I thinks she 'gets it' the next thing, she says something which makes me think, she hasn't grasped it at all. We had a day out recently, and couldn't quite believe how little choice there was for me at the place we were at. I managed to get a bottle of plain water, while everyone else had ice cream cones. ((I'm dairy intolerant as well).

There's a lot of people that don't realise that even ' few crumbs' can and do hurt. Why else would we need a separate toaster etc.?

It also sounds like you mum does have the same problem. What non-Coeliacs don't realise that even if they show no outward symptoms the damage is still been done on the inside.

At least you can rant on here and we all sympathise and understand how you feel.

[IrishHeart]

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One speck of rat poison may not kill the rat, but it sure as heck will make him wish he was dead.. 

 

I found myself having some nasty symptoms last week and scratching my head trying to figure out what the heck was going on.

 

Took me a few days, but I realized the little place I *thought* was capable of serving me a truly gluten-free lunch wasn't really adhering to the guidelines to avoid CC. They told me they had dedicated space. They had UDIs bread. They understood celiac.

I ate there a few times over the course of a month.

 

But I learned my gluten-free bread was toasted in a shared toaster (I assumed --never, ever do that) I

I thought their "2-toaster kitchen"  meant one was dedicated. I assumed they made my burger in a skillet, not on the shared grill. I assumed too much based on their answers. I should have asked more. I feel like an idiot. I mean, I'm a 3-year veteran for pete's sake.   

 

I paid for it dearly, starting with hair shedding all over the bathroom floor, migraine, serious back and muscle pain, sores on my face and then, the good old GI symptoms... I was dragging myself around and wondering why. This was my duh! 1 +1 = 2, dopey head moment.

 

A miniscule amount, a slow, low-dose glutening---is just as bad as a big blast of it. 

 

One crumb is toxic.

[flowerqueen]

Open Original Shared Link

 

One speck of rat poison may not kill the rat, but it sure as heck will make him wish he was dead.. 

 

I found myself having some nasty symptoms last week and scratching my head trying to figure out what the heck was going on.

 

Took me a few days, but I realized the little place I *thought* was capable of serving me a truly gluten-free lunch wasn't really adhering to the guidelines to avoid CC. They told me they had dedicated space. They had UDIs bread. They understood celiac.

I ate there a few times over the course of a month.

 

But I learned my gluten-free bread was toasted in a shared toaster (I assumed --never, ever do that) I

I thought their "2-toaster kitchen"  meant one was dedicated. I assumed they made my burger in a skillet, not on the shared grill. I assumed too much based on their answers. I should have asked more. I feel like an idiot. 

 

I paid for it dearly, starting with hair shedding all over the bathroom floor, migraine, serious back and muscle pain and then, the good old GI symptoms... I was dragging myself around and wondering why. This was my duh! 1 +1 = 2, dopey head moment.

 

A miniscule amount, a slow, low-dose glutening---is just as bad as a big blast of it. 

 

One crumb is toxic.

You are so right Irish Heart,

It makes me feel like I'm fussing or being pedantic for asking too many questions, and I have in the past, done the same as you and 'assumed' too much. These are our lives though and we must do everything in our power to make sure we don't get glutened - if we don't do it, who else is there? We are the ones that will suffer :-(

[LauraTX]

I read the Amount Of Gluten In Single, Small Bread Crumb? headline and immediately yelled at my computer, "Too much!"  LOL.

[cyclinglady]

It's hard to get old people to change (I know because I'm getting there.....)    

  

[IrishHeart]

It's hard to get old people to change (I know because I'm getting there.....)  

  

 

I would have agreed with you a few years ago, except ...my (then) 84-year-old Yankee Steadfast feet- in -cement -unbending

Mom read all the materials I sent her after my DX. She had watched me almost die after 3 years of crashing so bad

and she recognizing her own life-long symptoms (as well as the

reason my dad surely died).

She went G F immediately.  I helped her figure out what to eat and she never looked back. Never bothered with testing. 

Her doc gave his blessing and she feels fantastic. (probably for the first time in her life) and I have had to remind her to get her BP & thyroid med dosage reduced as needed.  Her lab work is awesome

and the doc says her EKG is one of a 60 year old. My Ma had suffered heart palps and "a-fib" for years--just like me (neither of us have that anymore)

No more GERD or cholesterol meds.....blah blah blah.

 

My Mom could out-walk any of us any day and at nearly 87, still goes to the gym 3X a week with her girlfriends (in their 60's) I know, she is amazing. She's in better shape than I am.

 

If somebody really wants to change, they can..

[powerofpositivethinking]

thanks kareng and IH for the links!.  Now I'll be ready for the next time he makes that comment 

 

flowerqueen, i'm sorry to hear that your Mom acts similar to mine, but maybe someday they'll get it.  it always makes me feel better knowing someone is in the same boat 

 

I keep going back and forth about paying for the gene test out of pocket from Enterolab.  my GI wouldn't order it after my positive DGP score because he says in itself it is not diagnostic, which I know.  However at this point I'm so curious.  I know Dr. Fasano does the 4/5 rule, but it talks about iga antibodies and I only had the igg based one positive.  However if I counted the igg one anyway, I currently have 3/5 of the criteria except the gold standard positive biopsy.  The gene test would give me that 4/5, but if it comes back negative, that will make my head spin    Unfortunately I'll never know if I don't get it done.  I've said before on here that there is so much research regarding the validity of the DGP IGG test when in regards to IGA deficiency or children, but yet I'm not iga deficient or a child, but I've had three positive DGP igg tests.  I wish they would do more studies on it!  I know I can't eat gluten, but it would be great if I didn't feel like I was swimming in a murky swamp, so I could tell my parents, I'm a doctor diagnosed celiac.  I'm positive then my Dad wouldn't suggest that crumbs won't hurt!  My maternal grandmother had a bowel impaction a few years back, and my paternal grandfather had diabetes, and it often makes me wonder about the role of gluten for both of them. 

 

IH, I always keep that in mind about your mother.  Change is possible!  I'm still hopeful my Mom will have that lightbulb moment in the near future.  She'll be 60 next year, and I want her around when she's in her 80s too because she's my Mom and I love her! 

[IrishHeart]

Want my flat out opinion? FWIW?

 

I would save up for the gene test. It will put your mind at rest and if positive, perhaps be the last thing that will get them on board.

 

It was actually the genetic test (showing the double HLA- DQ2 genes from both of my parents) that convinced my Mother she was

gluten intolerant herself (if not a full-blown celiac).  She knew it when she saw the long list of symptoms that she had were from gluten, but in her eyes, genes don't lie. 

[powerofpositivethinking]

I know you are right that I should just save up and whatever happens, happens.  Getting the gene test would finally give me an answer to that part of the puzzle.  Maybe my Mom still has my piggy bank from when I was six 

 

 

Want my flat out opinion? FWIW?

 

I would save up for the gene test. It will put your mind at rest and if positive, perhaps be the last thing that will get them on board.

 

It was actually the genetic test (showing the double HLA- DQ2 genes from both of my parents) that convinced my Mother she was

gluten intolerant herself (if not a full-blown celiac).  She knew it when she saw the long list of symptoms that she had were from gluten, but in her eyes, genes don't lie. 

[cyclinglady]

I would have agreed with you a few years ago, except ...my (then) 84-year-old Yankee Steadfast feet- in -cement -unbending

Mom read all the materials I sent her after my DX. She had watched me almost die after 3 years of crashing so bad

and she recognizing her own life-long symptoms (as well as the

reason my dad surely died).

She went G F immediately.  I helped her figure out what to eat and she never looked back. Never bothered with testing. 

Her doc gave his blessing and she feels fantastic. (probably for the first time in her life) and I have had to remind her to get her BP & thyroid med dosage reduced as needed.  Her lab work is awesome

and the doc says her EKG is one of a 60 year old. My Ma had suffered heart palps and "a-fib" for years--just like me (neither of us have that anymore)

No more GERD or cholesterol meds.....blah blah blah.

 

My Mom could out-walk any of us any day and at nearly 87, still goes to the gym 3X a week with her girlfriends (in their 60's) I know, she is amazing. She's in better shape than I am.

 

If somebody really wants to change, they can..

Wow!  I stand corrected!     Hope I'm still going strong at 87!  

[kareng]

I know you are right that I should just save up and whatever happens, happens.  Getting the gene test would finally give me an answer to that part of the puzzle.  Maybe my Mom still has my piggy bank from when I was six 

Gene test by Quest - $366. Plus a $20 draw fee.

[flowerqueen]

I would have agreed with you a few years ago, except ...my (then) 84-year-old Yankee Steadfast feet- in -cement -unbending

Mom read all the materials I sent her after my DX. She had watched me almost die after 3 years of crashing so bad

and she recognizing her own life-long symptoms (as well as the

reason my dad surely died).

She went G F immediately.  I helped her figure out what to eat and she never looked back. Never bothered with testing. 

Her doc gave his blessing and she feels fantastic. (probably for the first time in her life) and I have had to remind her to get her BP & thyroid med dosage reduced as needed.  Her lab work is awesome

and the doc says her EKG is one of a 60 year old. My Ma had suffered heart palps and "a-fib" for years--just like me (neither of us have that anymore)

No more GERD or cholesterol meds.....blah blah blah.

 

My Mom could out-walk any of us any day and at nearly 87, still goes to the gym 3X a week with her girlfriends (in their 60's) I know, she is amazing. She's in better shape than I am.

 

If somebody really wants to change, they can..

Wonder if I could convince my mum to change?  She's on pills to keep her heartbeat regular.  She's in her 80's - the only thing is she's only partially sighted and it would be more challenging for her and may easily get cross contamination   I know thyroid problems run in our family (my thyroid improved after my coeliac diagnosis) and these auto-immune diseases are linked.

[flowerqueen]

thanks kareng and IH for the links!.  Now I'll be ready for the next time he makes that comment 

 

flowerqueen, i'm sorry to hear that your Mom acts similar to mine, but maybe someday they'll get it.  it always makes me feel better knowing someone is in the same boat 

 

I keep going back and forth about paying for the gene test out of pocket from Enterolab.  my GI wouldn't order it after my positive DGP score because he says in itself it is not diagnostic, which I know.  However at this point I'm so curious.  I know Dr. Fasano does the 4/5 rule, but it talks about iga antibodies and I only had the igg based one positive.  However if I counted the igg one anyway, I currently have 3/5 of the criteria except the gold standard positive biopsy.  The gene test would give me that 4/5, but if it comes back negative, that will make my head spin    Unfortunately I'll never know if I don't get it done.  I've said before on here that there is so much research regarding the validity of the DGP IGG test when in regards to IGA deficiency or children, but yet I'm not iga deficient or a child, but I've had three positive DGP igg tests.  I wish they would do more studies on it!  I know I can't eat gluten, but it would be great if I didn't feel like I was swimming in a murky swamp, so I could tell my parents, I'm a doctor diagnosed celiac.  I'm positive then my Dad wouldn't suggest that crumbs won't hurt!  My maternal grandmother had a bowel impaction a few years back, and my paternal grandfather had diabetes, and it often makes me wonder about the role of gluten for both of them. 

 

IH, I always keep that in mind about your mother.  Change is possible!  I'm still hopeful my Mom will have that lightbulb moment in the near future.  She'll be 60 next year, and I want her around when she's in her 80s too because she's my Mom and I love her! 

Yes, you are not alone! I think a lot of it is her age, and she's started to forget things too.    Let's just keep going! This site is great for support!

[dilettantesteph]

This talks about how much gluten is in a bread crumb as well as how much gluten can make you sick.  Open Original Shared Link

[IrishHeart]

This talks about how much gluten is in a bread crumb as well as how much gluten can make you sick.  Open Original Shared Link

 

Great minds....That's the same one I posted above. 

[MGR]

I agree that a proper diagnosis is important in order to shut people up. I have a similar thing with my mother in law who keeps mentioning that fantastic plumb slice and what it pain it is because I am unable to eat it and she loves it. I always have to reply- I am not preventing you to make it, I just won't have any and this is not a problem at all. And she answers, oh I am sure just a little bit wont harm you! And so the discussions go on. The worst thing about all of this for me is that I absolutely hate drawing attention to myself with food!! Great to see that others also have to deal with this- thanks for sharing.

[Salax]

Gene test by Quest - $366. Plus a $20 draw fee.

Enterolab is much cheaper for the gene test. I think it was $178 I paid for the test and the shipping total. Still though it's a great piece of mind to have if there is doubt. I would recommend to anyone who had doubts or wants confirmation (besides diet confirmation)

[kareng]

I'm a bit leery of them because of the other "tests" they run.  I would hope the gene tests would be reliable. 

[IrishHeart]

I'm a bit leery of them because of the other "tests" they run.  I would hope the gene tests would be reliable. 

 

They are. My gene test was from Enterolab (long before I knew all the "particulars" about that lab) but my GI doctor did a blood genetic test

on me while diagnosing me and it said the same thing their saliva results said.

 

I am okay with their genetic testing...at least..... FWIW

[powerofpositivethinking]

Enterolab is what I am leaning towards because of cost, and I really just want to see if I have the gene.  I've read through posts on here, and the general consensus seems to be Enterolab is fine for the gene test but questionable on everything else.  Knowing that I have the gene is good enough for me.  I don't even want to see the complexities of low risk, high risk because if I happen to have a low risk gene, and it says low risk on the paper, I can see my parents doubting everything.  

 

I'm not telling my parents I'm getting the test.  I've also decided that if I come back negative for both, I won't share that with my parents because then my Dad will probably whip up some whole wheat pancakes for me    I will only share with them if I get a positive result.  I'm 27 years old and independent, but I still feel the need to tell my parents important things, so it feels like I'm keeping something from them, but yet it's for my own health.  

 

All these thoughts, and I haven't actually gotten the gene test yet.  Sometimes I think too much 

[dilettantesteph]

Great minds....That's the same one I posted above. 

 

Heck, I have to admit not reading the thread carefully enough to see that.   Can I blame a recent glutening?

[IrishHeart]

Heck, I have to admit not reading the thread carefully enough to see that.   Can I blame a recent glutening?

 

 Sure, why not? I'm blaming a recent one I had....for everything.

[cyclinglady]

This talks about how much gluten is in a bread crumb as well as how much gluten can make you sick.  Open Original Shared Link

So, I've been sick for two weeks now.   Not bad sick.  My main and constant symptom is just pain (tolerable) in my stomach located upper left just where it connects to my small intestine.  This is the same pain I developed after consuming copious amounts of gluten after I tested positive on my blood panel and prior to my endoscopy (prior to that I just had Hashi's and anemia as symptoms).  Plus, I'm now experiencing  some indigestion and visible swelling just in that area.  I have no pain in the morning, but as soon as I start eating, it begins and ends when my stomach is empty (it's not coffee either!).  

 

I've been extremely careful about gluten exposure, but I have been letting in gluten items into the house for months. My daughter will take prepackaged foods to school (e.g. frozen PB&J sandwiches), but I do buy her some gluten cookies that we keep in the freezer.  Both she and I will access those cookies for lunches and snacks.  She's pretty good about washing her hands after, but not sure if she's careless about spreading crumbs (I've slowed down on the harping though).    I  cook noodles for her in a dedicated pot, spoon, strainer and allow her to eat Cheerios, but in her own cute bowl that has her name on it.   I wash the gluten items separately from the rest of the household dishes and use a separate sponge (rinsed and nuked afterwards).  I do wipe down countertops with a clean dishcloth (changed daily), but I suppose there is a possibility that I'm scooping up Cheerio dust and putting it into the dishpan.  I think I'm rinsing all my glasses and plates, but maybe not?   Wouldn't I get "soap poisoning" as Ralphie said in The Christmas Story?

 

Two weeks ago, I started baking like a fiend using gluten-free certified flours.  The weather cooled and I was feeling up to it.   Of course, I always consume at least 8 to 10 cookies, etc. when they come out of the oven and then have a few each day.  I know I have a horrible sweet tooth!  Based on this article, just constant exposure to "Gluten Free" flours can cause damage?    I was willing to pin it on pumpkin seeds or xanthan gum.  I rarely eat gluten-free bread or waffles since I have noticed that they don't agree with me.   So, my gluten-free flour exposure or xanthan gum exposure comes primarily through my own baking.

 

It's so darn hard to figure out since my gluten free husband is not sick.  But, I know, that each one of us is different and he's been gluten-free for over 12 years and has healed from any damage.  Maybe he can have some tiny gluten exposure with no visible effects.  

 

I suppose the best approach (before going to the doctor) would be to go grain free and stop allowing all gluten in the house temporarily.  What do you think?

 

My doctor recommended coming back after a year.  Not sure if this is standard protocol for his practice or because I was already living with a gluten free guy and I know the drill.  My antibodies were considered "mild" to begin with (biospy March Stage IIIB) so I'm not sure if retesting is going to tell me much, but it's the logical place to start.  I don't think I have an ulcer  -- maybe just gastritis.  I'm allergic to dairy, so I don't consume any at all so that's not a factor.

 

I had my gallbladder out seven years ago (non-functioning) and I sure hope it's not bile reflux or some damage to a duct as my Aunt died when stent was replaced in her and she was in her 50's like me!  Gallbladder problems are a serious family curse!  

 

I'm not sure I'm expecting any answers, but it's nice to vent!