Bleu Cheese

[Sweetfudge]

I recall reading somewhere that there is gluten used in the process of making bleu cheese, but couldn't remember if I was correct. Just trying to figure out where I got glutened...had a salad with some on it even though I ordered without...I was too hungry to care, but now i'm regretting

Thx!

[lorka150]

As far as I have heard, this is a huge red flag. I know that there ARE gluten-free ones, but not always.

[tiredofdoctors]

Check with Broncobux on this one . . . he can explain it MUCH better than I can . . . but he will tell you that MOST bleu cheese made now is safe . . . as I said, in a MUCH better way that I could possibly do it!

[RiceGuy]

Well, AFAIK the blue stuff in the cheese is mold, and that can really cause all sorts of reactions in people. I know I couldn't ever have anything like that at all. There are a number of potentially toxic substances that come with the mold. I would not recommend blue cheese to any Celiac. Anyway, I'd guess that if the mold is grown in a wheat substance, then that would be a gluten source.

[eKatherine]

Well, AFAIK the blue stuff in the cheese is mold, and that can really cause all sorts of reactions in people. I know I couldn't ever have anything like that at all. There are a number of potentially toxic substances that come with the mold. I would not recommend blue cheese to any Celiac. Anyway, I'd guess that if the mold is grown in a wheat substance, then that would be a gluten source.

Why do you think everyone should give up foods that disagree with you? If we only ate foods that nobody ever reacts to and contain no toxic substances whatever, none of us would have anything to eat.

[gfp]

Why do you think everyone should give up foods that disagree with you? If we only ate foods that nobody ever reacts to and contain no toxic substances whatever, none of us would have anything to eat.

Very true and I know you are a cheese lover who can't .... so you are hardly saying this through self-interest!

As it happens many real unpasturised blue cheeses have a lot of probiotics.

Also you can be allergic to one penicillin and not another.

The discussion centred on whether Roquefort cheese was made using yeast possibly from bread or not and two of us had heard different things. The amazing part is we were both correct!

In brief Roquefort Baragnaudes and Societé are naturally exposed to caves and cellars containing the Roquefort penicillin whereas Papillion uses a method with a traditional rye bread used to kick off the penicillin which is then transferred to the cheese.

So the old French "oui et non" is actually right in this case.

Does the transfer risk gluten? I'm not sure, perhaps its completely consumed by the penecillin but I know which I will be choosing from now on.

Sorry can't post link as it breaks board rules.

[StrongerToday]

I love bleu cheese, but it was the first food I noticed a direct correlation to a fast trip to the bathroom right after consumption! So even if some are "safe" I probably won't be trying it.

[Becky6]

I eat Crystal Farms blue cheese and have no problems. Most of the ones I have picked up say contains wheat so you have to really watch.

[Lillyth]

Why do you think everyone should give up foods that disagree with you? If we only ate foods that nobody ever reacts to and contain no toxic substances whatever, none of us would have anything to eat.

I didn't see anywhere in his/her post that said everyone shoucl give up foods that do not agree with him/her.

Given that blue cheese started as a substance bourne from moldy rye bread, I don't see how this is anything but cautionary.

There are strains of blue that are consumable by celiacs (Outback Steakhouse, TJ's), but as a general rule, I think that blue cheese is something celiacs should steer clear from simply because of the nature of it (ie: that it was originally derived from moldy bread).

Your post just seemed a bit on the "attacking" side, so I thought I should say something...

I may have missed something in the thread, but just in case I didn't, I thought I should say something....

Lil

[gfp]

I didn't see anywhere in his/her post that said everyone shoucl give up foods that do not agree with him/her.

Given that blue cheese started as a substance bourne from moldy rye bread, I don't see how this is anything but cautionary.

There are strains of blue that are consumable by celiacs (Outback Steakhouse, TJ's), but as a general rule, I think that blue cheese is something celiacs should steer clear from simply because of the nature of it (ie: that it was originally derived from moldy bread).

Lil

Blue cheeses originally started in caves.

Some use bread to culture the penicillin and others do not, they let the natural penicillin from the walls of the cave naturally infect the cheese. The specific strain of penecillin is dependant upon the specific geography of the area.

On top of this many celiacs also take probiotics which are found in natural unpasturised blue cheese from the original rennet.

I very much doubt steakhouse has a real unpasturised blue cheese to start off with but rather a artificial penecillium culture since the US does not respect international law in this area.

[RiceGuy]

Why do you think everyone should give up foods that disagree with you? If we only ate foods that nobody ever reacts to and contain no toxic substances whatever, none of us would have anything to eat.

As so appropriately noted by Lillyth, I didn't say everyone should give up foods that disagree with me. Read again if you please. I simply don't recommend foods which are so "borderline" as mold and such. That's an opinion, and still isn't an absolute. The more permeable intestinal walls are obviously letting more things through, so should we not take this into consideration? It seems many of us continue to have issue from time to time, and I guess that's what keeps us active on this board. That says enough I think. I'll just let this subject go right there.

[eKatherine]

I didn't see anywhere in his/her post that said everyone shoucl give up foods that do not agree with him/her.

Given that blue cheese started as a substance bourne from moldy rye bread, I don't see how this is anything but cautionary.

There are strains of blue that are consumable by celiacs (Outback Steakhouse, TJ's), but as a general rule, I think that blue cheese is something celiacs should steer clear from simply because of the nature of it (ie: that it was originally derived from moldy bread).

Your post just seemed a bit on the "attacking" side, so I thought I should say something...

I may have missed something in the thread, but just in case I didn't, I thought I should say something....

Lil

Well, AFAIK the blue stuff in the cheese is mold, and that can really cause all sorts of reactions in people. I know I couldn't ever have anything like that at all. There are a number of potentially toxic substances that come with the mold. I would not recommend blue cheese to any Celiac. Anyway, I'd guess that if the mold is grown in a wheat substance, then that would be a gluten source.

This is the post I was responding to, where RiceGuy said none of us should eat blue cheese as it causes reactions in some people, and it does not agree with him. Certainly people who are allergic to pennicillin should not eat it, and we should not be eating gluten. But for people who are not allergic to pennicillin, there is no reason to not eat a safe blue cheese. It is not toxic. We have enough toxic foods to avoid without making our world smaller.

Of course, you are free to give up all blue cheese if you do not feel comfortable with it. Do Outback and TJ's serve natural blue cheese, or are you referring to salad dressings?

[gfp]

This is the post I was responding to, where RiceGuy said none of us should eat blue cheese as it causes reactions in some people, and it does not agree with him. Certainly people who are allergic to pennicillin should not eat it, and we should not be eating gluten. But for people who are not allergic to pennicillin, there is no reason to not eat a safe blue cheese. It is not toxic. We have enough toxic foods to avoid without making our world smaller.

Of course, you are free to give up all blue cheese if you do not feel comfortable with it. Do Outback and TJ's serve natural blue cheese, or are you referring to salad dressings?

I think the point is that the thing most likely to upset a celiac in blue cheese is actually the lactose or casein.

If you are going to eat blue cheese then eat a natural one which is not made from penicillin grown on bread where you know the origin of the penicillin.

Obviously people allergic to penicillin should avoid it... that I hope goes without saying and people trying to lose weight should eat it in moderation but there is nothing specific in a real blue cheese towards celiacs.

However it is also packed full of probiotics and a very mild dose of penicillin as opposed to the plastic wrapped dead cheeses and most but not all classic blue cheeses are made from goat or ewes's milk which most people have less of an intolerance to than cows milk.

For most celiacs i would think that a non cow blue cheese is less likely to cause problems than a cow cheese.

[eKatherine]

...and most but not all classic blue cheeses are made from goat or ewes's milk which most people have less of an intolerance to than cows milk.

Which ones made from goat's milk would you recommend? I'm still looking.

Oh, dear. Just found some for $30 and $44 a pound.

[gfp]

Which ones made from goat's milk would you recommend? I'm still looking.

Bucheron is available in a blue variety...

Bleuet from the Loire is also very nice but somewhat hard to get hold of outside France but its nearby cousin Crottin de Chavignol is more available.

So far as I know all of the blue part is natural... it develops on the outside and doesn't produce veins like in ewe's blue cheese. Sainte-Maure de Touraine is a special Crottin which is more stringently controlled and has a AOC.

I think you will need a really specialist cheese shop to get the blue varieties since unlike the ewe's blue cheeses the blue is usually developed by the individual cheese shops.

Now please stop .... I have had my cheese for the week.... I have some roquefort in the fridge but I can't let myself eat it and all this talk about cheeses is................

[eKatherine]

Bucheron is available in a blue variety...

Bleuet from the Loire is also very nice but somewhat hard to get hold of outside France but its nearby cousin Crottin de Chavignol is more available.

So far as I know all of the blue part is natural... it develops on the outside and doesn't produce veins like in ewe's blue cheese. Sainte-Maure de Touraine is a special Crottin which is more stringently controlled and has a AOC.

I think you will need a really specialist cheese shop to get the blue varieties since unlike the ewe's blue cheeses the blue is usually developed by the individual cheese shops.

Now please stop .... I have had my cheese for the week.... I have some roquefort in the fridge but I can't let myself eat it and all this talk about cheeses is................

Awww... Roquefort...

[RiceGuy]

This is the post I was responding to, where RiceGuy said none of us should eat blue cheese as it causes reactions in some people, and it does not agree with him.

Oh? Well here's my exact words, in which I say no such thing:

Well, AFAIK the blue stuff in the cheese is mold, and that can really cause all sorts of reactions in people. I know I couldn't ever have anything like that at all. There are a number of potentially toxic substances that come with the mold. I would not recommend blue cheese to any Celiac. Anyway, I'd guess that if the mold is grown in a wheat substance, then that would be a gluten source.

Perhaps it's a matter of semantics. In that case, let me rephrase: I do not endorse the consumption of mold by Celiacs.

This is like any of the recommendations made on this board to watch out for things such as dairy, soy, nuts, corn, etc. Many of us can eat one or more of these, and many find one or more of them unsuitable. Yet we tend to include at least a few when suggesting possible causes of reactions, because they are things which more often cause problems for Celiacs. I hope that sets the record straight. Now lets move on, shall we?

Here's a quote from Open Original Shared Link:

Penicillin is a common cause of drug allergy. One clinic found 2.5 percent of their study group reacted to penicillin allergy skin tests (IgE antibodies). Anaphylactic reactions to penicillin cause 400 deaths annually among Americans, making penicillin allergy a more common cause of death than food allergy.

Here's an interesting explanation of blue cheese:

Open Original Shared Link

[gfp]

Oh? Well here's my exact words, in which I say no such thing:

Well, AFAIK the blue stuff in the cheese is mold, and that can really cause all sorts of reactions in people. I know I couldn't ever have anything like that at all. There are a number of potentially toxic substances that come with the mold. I would not recommend blue cheese to any Celiac. Anyway, I'd guess that if the mold is grown in a wheat substance, then that would be a gluten source.

Perhaps it's a matter of semantics. In that case, let me rephrase: I do not endorse the consumption of mold by Celiacs.

Here's a quote from Open Original Shared Link:

Penicillin is a common cause of drug allergy. One clinic found 2.5 percent of their study group reacted to penicillin allergy skin tests (IgE antibodies). Anaphylactic reactions to penicillin cause 400 deaths annually among Americans, making penicillin allergy a more common cause of death than food allergy.

Here's an interesting explanation of blue cheese:

Open Original Shared Link

The article is wrong.

Here's how Roquefort cheese was originally made:

The farmers would collect the milk, curdle it with rennet, then scoop the curds by hand into molds. A powder made from grating moldy bread was sprinkled into the curds . . . The bread was stored in the same damp caves that aged the cheese, and in a few weeks it turned blue and was ground to dust for cheese making (reference 1)

French cheese makers generally don't risk uncertain quality control by allowing their cheese to acquire its mold from the Roquefort cave air and soil, and instead use a starter like most cheeses.

Both of these statements are wrong....

Baragnuades and societe both use natural propagation fro the caves, papillon uses bread.

There are a number of potentially toxic substances that come with the mold.

Exactly how toxin? Salt is toxic... vitamins are toxic....

......... and these "toxic" substances are also taken by many people in the form of suppliments.

Strangly enough if you look at metrics like longevity and infant mortality most of the countires which eat "live" cultures live longer and are healthier than those who sterilise all their food.

Most mediterranean countries eat unpasturised blue cheese and raw meat frequently yet they live longer than people in the US and UK.

I'm not saying they live longer because of this ... but if it seriously detrimented health you certainly wouldn't see them living longer.

Moulds are extremely diverse, they don't even all belong top a single division (phyla) their only relation is that they are all fungi.... related at the same level as a dog and a sponge or dolphin and a frog. Some reroduce sexually and others a sexually and some both....

Some frogs are deadly poisionous and others are edible.... some fungi are edible and others are deadly poisionous... some animals like crustaceans cause allergic reactions but this doesn't mean that chicken is bad ... should we avoid chicken because a distant cousin a crab causes allergic reaction? Or should we not eat plants at all because some are deadly toxic???

This is like any of the recommendations made on this board to watch out for things such as dairy, soy, nuts, corn, etc. Many of us can eat one or more of these, and many find one or more of them unsuitable. Yet we tend to include at least a few when suggesting possible causes of reactions, because they are things which more often cause problems for Celiacs. I hope that sets the record straight. Now lets move on, shall we?

You cannot possible NOT consume molds and fungi in general... they are in the air you breath and on the food you eat. Indeed they in many cases protect the food you eat from bacterial infection...

The point is they are as diverse as a elephant and a frog.... Penicillin is not any ore related to Stachybotrys or Chaetomium than the elephant is to the frog, indeed the elephant and frog are a lot closer...

More importantly penicillin inhibits many dangerous bacteria such as Bacillus, Listeria, Staphylococcus, Streptococcus, Enterococcus, and Clostridium while at the same time not harming many useful bacteria needed for digestion. This is species dependant and roquforti is very good and preventing harmful bacteria and leaving the good guys. Colonic bacteria for instance tend to be gram negative and are not inhibited by roquforti only by specially derived relatives such as ampicillin.

[RiceGuy]

The article is wrong.

Both of these statements are wrong....

Baragnuades and societe both use natural propagation fro the caves, papillon uses bread.

Exactly how toxin? Salt is toxic... vitamins are toxic....

......... and these "toxic" substances are also taken by many people in the form of suppliments.

Strangly enough if you look at metrics like longevity and infant mortality most of the countires which eat "live" cultures live longer and are healthier than those who sterilise all their food.

Most mediterranean countries eat unpasturised blue cheese and raw meat frequently yet they live longer than people in the US and UK.

I'm not saying they live longer because of this ... but if it seriously detrimented health you certainly wouldn't see them living longer.

Moulds are extremely diverse, they don't even all belong top a single division (phyla) their only relation is that they are all fungi.... related at the same level as a dog and a sponge or dolphin and a frog. Some reroduce sexually and others a sexually and some both....

Some frogs are deadly poisionous and others are edible.... some fungi are edible and others are deadly poisionous... some animals like crustaceans cause allergic reactions but this doesn't mean that chicken is bad ... should we avoid chicken because a distant cousin a crab causes allergic reaction? Or should we not eat plants at all because some are deadly toxic???

You cannot possible NOT consume molds and fungi in general... they are in the air you breath and on the food you eat. Indeed they in many cases protect the food you eat from bacterial infection...

The point is they are as diverse as a elephant and a frog.... Penicillin is not any ore related to Stachybotrys or Chaetomium than the elephant is to the frog, indeed the elephant and frog are a lot closer...

More importantly penicillin inhibits many dangerous bacteria such as Bacillus, Listeria, Staphylococcus, Streptococcus, Enterococcus, and Clostridium while at the same time not harming many useful bacteria needed for digestion. This is species dependant and roquforti is very good and preventing harmful bacteria and leaving the good guys. Colonic bacteria for instance tend to be gram negative and are not inhibited by roquforti only by specially derived relatives such as ampicillin.

Oh boy, won't this ever end?!

Look, all I'm pointing out is that a lot of people have an allergic reaction to molds. That includes penicillin. It's just like a product label stating "this product contains soy", or "this product may contain peanuts". Why do they do that since both of them are regarded as healthy, good things to eat? Even gluten-filled foods carry such warnings, not just gluten-free specialties.

Not everyone reacts badly to peanuts, soy, dairy, or mold for that matter. But the general warning goes out to all just the same. How many of us post suggestions to watch out for this or that, even for things we ourselves don't have trouble with? I can eat peanuts AFAIK, but it's still on my list of suggestions to others to consider it if they are trying to figure out what they are reacting to. Don't most of us do that?

Sure, even basic nutrients can be toxic at overly high levels. But an allergy doesn't require very much, whether it be gluten, casein, mold, or whatever a person happens to be allergic to.

As for the accuracy of the cheese article, I never said it supported any particular viewpoint. It was just a link about the cheese.

[gfp]

Oh boy, won't this ever end?!

Look, all I'm pointing out is that a lot of people have an allergic reaction to molds. That includes penicillin. It's just like a product label stating "this product contains soy", or "this product may contain peanuts". Why do they do that since both of them are regarded as healthy, good things to eat? Even gluten-filled foods carry such warnings, not just gluten-free specialties.

I'm pedantic by nature! Honestly I'm not saying this against you I am just standing up for the poor and misunderstood molds.

Molds is just a label but its not a scientific taxonomic classification. Its a humanocentric classification ..

For instance as I'm sure you know many "nuts" are not nuts. A brazil not is not a nut.... but we call it a nut because it looks like a nut. Because we are human we class a whole set of completely genetically different things as molds. However we have a different view point about molds... but that's all it is a viewpoint.....

Its like many insects are both edible and healthy as are many worms but we think yuck insects or yuck worms .. because they have a connotation of being yucky. More specifically you could say pigs are yucky to Jews and Muslims yet I find them delicious ... I know many Jews and Muslims who do not eat Kosher or Halal and don't think twice before tucking into grilled octapus or steamed lobster but pigs have a special cultural place. i even know lots of atheist "Jews" and "Muslims" who have no rational belief that pork is bad but still find it distateful and don't eat it....I even have one friend who makes a point of eating anything non-Kosher whenever he is out of Isreal ... he is completely athesit and if we go for sushi he picks squid and eel because he can't eat these in Isreal... but he still doesn't eat pork and freely admits its just a cultural thing however he has eaten it just to show he doesn't worry about eating it....

Mold is like this... its a culturally yucky thing... indeed we call different members of fungi according to yuckyness .... but its not based on any real logic.... sure some moulds are bad but lots are good.

We have other categories like "beast of burden" which are very seperate species such as a horse and an ox and a camel. If you are allergic to horse you are unlikely to also be allergic to camel but if you are allergic to camel you might be allergic to llama.

The point is mould is just a catch-all term.... their only real similarity is at a very fundamental level (fungi) so its different to soy or peanuts (or even nuts).... its like this product may contain animals or this product may contain plants.

[penguin]

As so appropriately noted by Lillyth, I didn't say everyone should give up foods that disagree with me. Read again if you please. I simply don't recommend foods which are so "borderline" as mold and such. That's an opinion, and still isn't an absolute. The more permeable intestinal walls are obviously letting more things through, so should we not take this into consideration? It seems many of us continue to have issue from time to time, and I guess that's what keeps us active on this board. That says enough I think. I'll just let this subject go right there.

Mold is not borderline for celiacs. The only reason a celiac would have an issue with mold is if they're allergic to it. Even then, many people with mold allergies (me, for example) can eat cheese. If you want to cut out all foods with mold, I suggest cutting out cheese, any nuts, peanuts, fruit juice, and basically everything grown on God's green Earth. Don't forget to live in a bubble, either.

IMO, borderline for celiacs are things like uncontaminated oats, not mold.

[Sweetfudge]

Wow, um, quite a commotion I've caused. Now that I've learned more than I ever wanted to know about the making of bleu cheese (gave me that just-went-to-the-meat-factory kind of feeling in my stomach), I shall from here on out try and avoid the stuff and stick to my comfort cheeses like mozzarella and goat cheese

Anywhooo, hope there's not been any feelings hurt in here We're all just here to learn and to teach and I'm very happy to have so many educators to set me straight!

Thanks everyone for the help!

[Guest nini]

I simply think that Bleu Cheese is disgusting and just don't eat it because I don't like the way it tastes!

(sometimes I have to be a stinker)

[queenofhearts]

Hmmm, I love bleu & have missed it because of the could-be-gluten warnings. But I just had a thought... these molds that grow on wheat... could they possibly be advantageous to Celiacs? Maybe they actually digest & destroy gluten! I'm thinking they might be analogous to the bacteria that make yogurt more digestible for the lactose intolerant. It's probably just wishful thinking, but maybe our bellies need some Roquefort!

[elonwy]

I have switched to Feta for my salads, since its so hard to find blue cheese without "wheat" in the label. Or at least within my price range . Atheknos is owned by Kraft, and stands by Kraft's labeling policy.

MMMMM. Goat cheese.

Elonwy