Modified Food Starch - Correction Of Misconception

[Guest KG in FL]

"If the FDA will continue to allow a store to sell spoiled dairy products to the general public and advice people to not buy their dairy products at said store, then what makes you think they are making sure the companies are following the rules for the allergen law?"

Darlindeb25, you mean a general "you" here right? Not me specifically? I haven't totally formed an opinion on all this.

From what I am gathering here, some are saying things are "safe" if the allergens are listed and some are saying that due to negligence or shoddy work practices, some items might be contaminated and we never know.

Am I getting what the entire thread is saying correctly?

[Clark Bent as Stupor-Man 0]

Guys, come on. It's been explained before, and I'll explain it again. And no amount of wishful thinking will make it go away.

In a packaged product, there will *never* be anything but a lower limit for a definition of the term gluten free; that term will never truely mean zero.

Why? Because to enforce the rule, you have to be able to measure compliance. To measure compliance you have to use instruments. Instruments do not have perfect precision. They may be completely accurate (always return the same results), but will never be perfectly precise (no error) and there will always be something smaller that they can't test. Combine that with making it 'reasonable' to test for - cost and time, both - and it will never be 0ppm, or 0ppb, or 0ppt.

while this is completely true, I still think things could potentially get worse in at least some ways when standards are introduced in the US for gluten-free as zansu said... at least if we adopt the codex standards being used in some countries in Europe, which looks to be the way we're likely to go...

while I understand that a minimum measurable amount must be implemented for testing standards, I think this should be accompanied by an additional requirement of no gluten or gluten-derived ingredients in the product for the product to be labeled gluten-free... both of these requirements are verifiable and enforceable and having both of these requirements in place would provide additional protection for consumers without placing undue requirements on manufacturers...

if the manuf. makes a product with a gluten ingredient that is tested at less than the X ppb standard, then they can note that on their product regarding its tested amount but it still wouldn't be labeled gluten-free... on the other hand, if a product has no gluten ingredients but still tests above the standard, it wouldn't be labeled gluten-free either... in terms of the manufacturer's perspective, the only additional onus on them by adding this second requirement to the codex standards is for them to not use ingredients with a direct source of gluten (ie. food starch derived from wheat) in a product to be labeled gluten-free... the manufacturers would still have the same protection against any incidental cross-contamination that the codex standards afford them... and consumers would still have to rely on establishing trust with certain companies and doing their own research if they are sensitive to cc...

however, if we indeed adopt the codex standards, only the first requirement would be mandated and a consumer could end up buying a product labeled gluten-free that has an ingredient directly derived from a gluten source... which I think would makes us worse off than we are currently despite not having any regulations of gluten-free... I don't think anyone has yet to find an American product labeled gluten-free that has an ingredient directly derived from wheat, for example, right?

check out this thread:

http://www.glutenfreeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=11025

read aikiducky's first 2 posts...

and from what I've read, it looks like we are headed in the direction of implementing codex standards, including the gluten-free requirements... the gluten-free regulations however pale in comparison to other things I've seen regarding what implementing the codex standards could mean, specifically the threat to DSHEA... but that's another matter altogether...

[Fiddle-Faddle 18]

So much of what we assume is made in the US is not.

I have in front of me a carton of Campbell's Select Gold Label soup. I always assumed Campbell's was made in the US, but it states: "product of Canada." I have several other canned or dried products that say, "distributed by," but they don't say where they were made.

I'm afraid we are stuck with calling the manufacturers on the modified food starch questions.

Perhaps some of the people on this board who suffer from frequent unexplained glutenings are actually reacting to gluten hidden in ingredients we all mistakenly thought were safe.

[psawyer 708]

Campbell's will clearly label gluten sources. This is true in Canada and the United States.

[Mtndog 19]

As the pharmacist told me when I called Pfizer about a drug, nothing is 100%. EVER. You can't guaranteed that the corn used to create the filler in the medication wasn't grown next to a wheat crop or stored in a shared silo, etc etc etc You get the picture.

The FDA would never be able to regulate so as to guarantee a 100% perfect anything (gluten-free, unspoiled dairy, etc). Life is inherently risky. As celiacs, unless you grew it yourself and cooked everything from scratch, you have to take a risk. Yes, companies should disclose what is in their products and they should be legally obliagted to. Many companies ARE responsible (especially some of the smaller ones like Amy's Kitchen and Lundberg Farms- at least they will tell you the truth), but your best bet if you are afraid of accidental ingestion is to avoid processed foods.

Yes, it's inconvenient, you can't ALWAY do it, but it can be done. I make my own potato chips.

You will always be taking a risk, you take a risk when you kiss your niece who may have had a sandwich on Wonder Bread for lunch. The best you can do is CALCULATE those risks- decide which ones you are willing to take and act on them.

Personally, if I HAD to accidentally unknwingly ingest gluten, I'd rather get contaminated after a nice dinner out than a bag of Cheetos.

[VegasCeliacBuckeye 2]

I'm still waiting for the source or citation that says most modified starch in the USA is not corn based.

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Still waiting....

All of you guys know (or most of you guys know) that you should be reading ingredients and calling manufacturers on the items you eat. That is Celiac 101. I find it baffling that people on this website are giving this person a free pass on criticizing a member (namely me) by posting incorrect information.

By the way, has anyone found a product that has MFS made from Rye or Barley? I haven't and its been 12 years worth of looking.

Its not like this guy said anything "groundbreaking" or anything. What is the crux of the argument the good doctor is espousing? is it that most MFS in the US is not corn based? Or is it that you should read ingredients? Or call the manufacturer? Or that you should believe everyone is out to get you and sit in your home and only eat freshly picked vegetables and fruit?

I seriously thought the board would have defended me a bit more vigorously. Apparently, I was wrong...

[debmidge 8]

I'm still waiting for the source or citation that says most modified starch in the USA is not corn based.

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Still waiting....

All of you guys know (or most of you guys know) that you should be reading ingredients and calling manufacturers on the items you eat. That is Celiac 101. I find it baffling that people on this website are giving this person a free pass on criticizing a member (namely me) by posting incorrect information.

By the way, has anyone found a product that has MFS made from Rye or Barley? I haven't and its been 12 years worth of looking.

Its not like this guy said anything "groundbreaking" or anything. What is the crux of the argument the good doctor is espousing? is it that most MFS in the US is not corn based? Or is it that you should read ingredients? Or call the manufacturer? Or that you should believe everyone is out to get you and sit in your home and only eat freshly picked vegetables and fruit?

I seriously thought the board would have defended me a bit more vigorously. Apparently, I was wrong...

You might not want to hear this but ...I think it could be because you are prolonging this point unnecessarily.....

[lonewolf 0]

I seriously thought the board would have defended me a bit more vigorously. Apparently, I was wrong...

Chris, you beat me back to the computer. I've been stewing about this thread since I read through it earlier. You were attacked for no reason. (Momma Goose, I feel, was attacked too.) You have ALWAYS been a good source of information. This thread wasn't really about if MFS was safe or not. RKB MD stated, "My first point, and real purpose of posting, was the gross misconception that a "senior" member of this forum was espousing. Specifically, that if not stated, it was "most likely" corn as the source for MFS.

It's threads like these that help my foot one step closer to the door.

Doctor or not, RKB MD came across as being very rude, for no apparent reason.

[CarlaB 22]

I seriously thought the board would have defended me a bit more vigorously. Apparently, I was wrong...

Sorry, I was just trying to stay out of it ... I respect you and Richard, who has backed up your claim, very much.

I thought that if you read the allergen statement and it didn't mention wheat, that MFS was okay. I never heard of it coming from barley.

I haven't been able to tell from this thread whether what I just stated is true ... wouldn't the allergen statement tell you whether the MFS came from wheat ... enforcing, lying, etc. aside ... in theory, wouldn't it say?

[CarlaB 22]

(Momma Goose, I feel, was attacked too.)

I FULLY agree.

[blueeyedmanda 7]

I too feel you guys were attacked but I am trying to stay out of it.

[VegasCeliacBuckeye 2]

thanks for your kind words Amanda, Liz, Momma and Carla (I should have included Tarnalberry and Richard as well).

I seriously have no interest in prolonging the thread.

I simply want a citation/source or an apology. Its that simple. Yes, that person did attack me by sarcastically calling me an "expert" and a "senior member".

[Guest j_mommy]

broncobux and mammagoose..... I back you both....both of you have responded to my newbie questions.....and BOTH have stated to always do calling ect!!!!

When I first responded to this thread...I said the same thing. That is what made me upset about the topic....everyone here is offering OPNIONS...but we all know to do check ing too!!! We are all ADULTS!!!!

As for another comment that was made about Dr's saying not to visit this site(posted in one of the dr's posts)........ THANK GOD FOR THIS SITE!!!!! I'm not talking about product info either.......I'm talking about the friendships and support! Thank you to all you "senior" posters who have helped me through this battle!!!!!!!!!

[blueeyedmanda 7]

I know I am so happy I found you guys, you have helped me so much. I have met so many great people here too.

[Mtndog 19]

The attacking poster was addressed by a moderator.

I have always had the greatest respect for ALL the veteran members here and really despise it when people post just for the sake of arguing. This board is a place to share information. We may not always agree but that's fine. Everyone has their own experiences and frustrations, but to come on looking to pick a fight (anyone) is cpounter-productive to the board.

Some people seem to seek out arguments and that is THEIR issue.

If you are going to make a BIG CLAIM you need to be sure you can back it up. LOTS of people read this board who do not necessarily post. There is no need to scare them.

For what it's worth, YOU (the big you) and you alone are responsible for what you eat!

[Guest KG in FL]

I know I am so happy I found you guys, you have helped me so much. I have met so many great people here too.

I am happy, I have learned a lot as well. Although this thread could have been simplified. But no one has really done that. I have asked and asked. I am not simpleminded, I was just hoping the two sides might narrow the arguement down to the two sides, or however many sides. But most posters have only tried to find ways to divide and debate the same statements over and over without totally defining each viewpoint, no closing statement. Just stating thier information and then insulting the other.

I know this might not make sense, but to someone (me) who is simply trying to find out whether all ingredients (allergens, whatever) are 100% listed or NOT.... to put it simply, it's hard to follow the soap opera of who is "in" or "out" of the people who are right or wrong, who are insulting who, or whom, who have degree's or not.

Try to remember, some of us don't know the regular experts, the moderators or the Dr's, and we are trying to just find out the end result of the thread. If there is one. I thought it was an important thread due to the food starch being so common in our foods, but I am starting to see I won't get a concensus here. And the knowledgable people here are numerable, if they could just keep the good work going and not worry the semantics or particulars of the discussion, everyone would benefit, highly!! (Momma Goose, please check "semantics" for me or I'm gonna get it!!) I meant nothing more than the verbage. Wordage? haha

[Mtndog 19]

Try to remember, some of us don't know the regular experts, the moderators or the Dr's, and we are trying to just find out the end result of the thread. If there is one. I thought it was an important thread due to the food starch being so common in our foods, but I am starting to see I won't get a concensus here. And the knowledgable people here are numerable, if they could just keep the good work going and not worry the semantics or particulars of the discussion, everyone would benefit, highly!! (Momma Goose, please check "semantics" for me or I'm gonna get it!!) I meant nothing more than the verbage. Wordage? haha

Well said! I think people sometimes can't see the forest for the trees. They LOOK to disagree and not to keep a productive logical argument )key difference between arguing for the sake of arguing and presenting a logical argument).

I think the end result it seems is that modified food starch is safe BASED on the experience of some of the more senior posters and the information that is currently available by rsearch. If anyone has a differrent EXPERIENCE or information they should post it. Until then, I personally will assume that MFS is corn-based and like any other food ingredient, there is a chance that sometimes I may get contaminated. I'm done.

[Lisa 464]

Ya know, I don't know what is right to say or wrong to say. As a moderator, I have certain responsibilities but as an active member here with Celiac I have a voice in that as well. As a Celiac member, I have a lot I would like to say. As a moderator, I will refrain.

I thank the few that have been in support, but on the other hand, it's not about "he said, she said", and there are no sides here. It's about respect. Disagreements do happen here and most often it is handled well by mature adults. As it should be.

Is there a conclusion to this thread (gosh knows I hope), I don't' know. But I do think that we should shut the door on this one. The productivity is lost.

[darlindeb25 5]

http://www.celiaccentral.org/News/Informat.../67/vobId__216/

Modified Food Starch: Modified food starch can be derived from many sources: corn, tapioca, potato, wheat, or other starches. Most modified food starch in North America is derived from non-gluten-containing sources. It is still prudent, however, to check with the manufacturer, asking from what source the modified food starch is derived.

There is a very trustworthy site that tells us we must always call, that we can't trust labeling. As you can see, it says: MOST MODIFIED FOOD STARCH IN NORTH AMERICA IS DERIVED FROM NON-GLUTEN-CONTAINING SOURCES. The word to notice is MOST!

I think the end result it seems is that modified food starch is safe BASED on the experience of some of the more senior posters and the information that is currently available by rsearch.This absolutely has not been proven. I am a senior member here too, and I do not trust modified food starch just because someone else said I should.

The way I see it, we will have to agree to disagree.

[happygirl 7]

Chris, just wanted to voice a source of support and appreciate all the info you have posted.

Laura

[Guest KG in FL]

http://www.celiaccentral.org/News/Informat.../67/vobId__216/

Modified Food Starch: Modified food starch can be derived from many sources: corn, tapioca, potato, wheat, or other starches. Most modified food starch in North America is derived from non-gluten-containing sources. It is still prudent, however, to check with the manufacturer, asking from what source the modified food starch is derived.

There is a very trustworthy site that tells us we must always call, that we can't trust labeling. As you can see, it says: MOST MODIFIED FOOD STARCH IN NORTH AMERICA IS DERIVED FROM NON-GLUTEN-CONTAINING SOURCES. The word to notice is MOST!

I think the end result it seems is that modified food starch is safe BASED on the experience of some of the more senior posters and the information that is currently available by rsearch.This absolutely has not been proven. I am a senior member here too, and I do not trust modified food starch just because someone else said I should.

The way I see it, we will have to agree to disagree.

I agree with you.

I know this sounds simpleminded here because I totally repect ALL the information here given by all those who care to share and help and I drink in all of it... But I can remember a time when, in total misery and and pain, with no help or knowledgeable opinion(they tried?), it came down eventually to be between me and my stomach! It came down to my feelings, my opinion, my body, my misery and my suffering.

I hope this makes sense to someone, but I had to FEEL the poisen and find out what it was- totally on my own. No help from science. Wrong place, wrong time? Maybe, but it seems many celiacs had to self diagnose. With that being said, of course, facts, science, testing, ingredients, GLUTEN, they all matter greatly.

What it seems here to me with this thread is that we might suspect we could get glutened with the modified food starch, we may or may not be, and we are trying to scientifically debate it?

I think my stomach and body will rule. Science is exact? No, it's not really, although they try and

everyone here has been right, I think.

[Mtndog 19]

I agree with you.

I know this sounds simpleminded here because I totally repect ALL the information here given by all those who care to share and help and I drink in all of it... But I can remember a time when, in total misery and and pain, with no help or knowledgeable opinion(they tried?), it came down eventually to be between me and my stomach! It came down to my feelings, my opinion, my body, my misery and my suffering.

I hope this makes sense to someone, but I had to FEEL the poisen and find out what it was- totally on my own. No help from science. Wrong place, wrong time? Maybe, but it seems many celiacs had to self diagnose. With that being said, of course, facts, science, testing, ingredients, GLUTEN, they all matter greatly.

What it seems here to me with this thread is that we might suspect we could get glutened with the modified food starch, we may or may not be, and we are trying to scientifically debate it?

I think my stomach and body will rule. Science is exact? No, it's not really, although they try and

everyone here has been right, I think.

Thank you for the link Deb- that was useful. Very!

And KG I wholeheartedly agree with the comment that it comes down to you and your body.

This was another useful excerpt from that link: The simple answer is that sometimes there isn't a simple answer. Some ingredients have been in question for years, simply because they cause some type of negative reaction in some people-but it's not necessarily a wheat or gluten reaction.

I think that many people could also have a problem with MFS because they also have other intolerances. I do know that I have always follwed Dana Korn's motto "When in doubt, leave it out".

There have been debates over lots of other food additives on this board- distilled vinegar, distilled alcohol made from grains, etc. but in the end it comes down to you doing the research and being armed with knowledge and choosing to avoid the product.

[mandm1 0]

just to clarify...would this be safe to eat?

An ingridient list includes MFS with no additional explanation/allergies statement, but the product's website lists this product as gluten free.

[VegasCeliacBuckeye 2]

I can agree on the fact that we should be calling and checking the sources of MFS if we are unsure of the source.

I really thought that was Celiac 101 (no offense to newbies).

So what where we arguing about if we all agree you should check with the manufacturer if you are unsure?

[happygirl 7]

I would eat it.