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CuriousOne

Why We Should All Be Drinking Wine...

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Okay I edited my post to clean up my thoughts a bit:

I was listening to a radio program of DogtorJ.net today. Someone posted this link on this board yesterday. He was talking about the protein fraction of gluten that we can be allergic to is alcohol but not water-soluble.

He also mentions how not only gluten, but casein, corn, and soy can act like glue in your small intestine, sticking to the villi...

It led me to question how this stuff comes off the villi. Does it ever???

Is that why Americans are eating more and more and more...because they are not absorbing things due to villi that are either covered with stickiness or just villi that are damaged?

What I'm guessing is that celiac and gluten-intolerant people are allergic to the prolamine portion of the gluten, and our immune system goes into gear trying to attack these things that are stuck to our villi. But, I'm guessing that in order to kill the protein it probably has to kill the entire villi?

So what about these other glue-foods? If we are not allergic to them, do they just stay on our villi forever...or at least until that particular villi reaches the end of its life-cycle and dies and another one regrows?

I would like to become super-small (like that one movie) and go inside the small intestine and examine these villi.

DogtorJ talks about how the reason the French and Italians drink wine is because wine acts as a solvent to the villi... especially to these alcohol-soluble prolamines...which are stuck on the villi. I guess casein has these prolamines, same with soy, corn...and gluten...

So again, even if we don't have an immune response to these prolamines, they still stick to our villi...which causes malabsorbtion.

So is this why Mediterraneans are healthier? They are eating these glue foods... but they drink wine throughout the day. In fact in Spain the government recommends men to drink up to a half bottle of wine a day...

They are eating wheat..dairy..not so much corn or soy. But the point is, they are eating these sticky foods, but drinking wine. So its possible their villi are cleaner.

Which would lend argument to why french women don't get fat. With cleaner villi, they absorb food better..so they don't -feel- the need to eat as much (which they don't, smaller portions)... Meanwhile maybe the cleaning of these sticky prolamines off the villi is responsible for lessing inflammation...for people with varying immune sensitivities to these prolamines.

Check out #9 in this link:

http://dogtorj.Lame Advertisement/id13.html

in place of the "lame advertisement" type in "t r i p o d . c o m" without spaces

sorry i think this site thinks that link is an advertisement...what...for wine? lol

I wonder personally what these means in relation to everything on this board. How long does it take for a gluten protein to get stuck on the villi...and then for the body to recognize there is something on the villi and go into immune mode to attack it?

Maybe many more people are really gluten-intolerant (and casein etc)..but because they drink wine with the meals, or at least throughout the day (which is the common practice)...they are dissolving these sticky proteins before the body has a chance to mount an immune response.

this could explain so many of the apparent benefits of wine. its all related to the villi... if there is no inflammation, thats one thing. but also your villi will be cleaner and absorb better...and malabsorption is related to so many health issues.


I eat whatever I want. But I listen to my body. I just can't eat a lot of diary or grains. If I do eat them, I savor and chew them slowly and well... I don't like feeling sluggish and if I eat alot of those things I start feeling sluggish. I feel very cleaned out now. I like to eat lots of raw fruits and veggies. I think for me I just can't eat things that are inflammatory, and dairy and all grains are inflammatory to me. So looks like I'll be eating mainly fruits, veggies, wild or grass-fed meats, and figure out what other stuff I can eat thats not too inflammatory. I'll probably also drink wine or brandy and use other plants things that are anti-inflammatory. Yeah!

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That is interesting. I would have to guess that the alcohol isn't enough to clean the villi or deactivate the gluten, though. Beer made from barley malt still bothers people even though it has alcohol, though there isn't that much alcohol in beer. Maybe I'll try boiling some glutenous spaghetti, drain it and throw out the spaghetti, then swish some wine in the pot to see if it dissolves that sticky, glutenous residue. But if it did, a pot isn't the same as the conditions inside the body. It would be so awesome if it worked, though!

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Right! Well...lets theorize more...

Mediterraneans mainly drink wine with meals, not beer. Beer might not have the same qualities, or alcohol in general..I don't know. Maybe there is just something special about wine.

It might be why also many traditional cultures would ferment grains/soy/corn... because during the fermentation process alcohol would help dissolve these gluten or gluten-like proteins so they wouldn't end up sticking onto our villi!

I don't know everything but dogtorj.net has so much info. especially on the composition of gluten, and how its related to the composition of things like casein/soy..etc.

It also makes me wonder if this is one way to quicken up the healing process in us. How many villi do we have? What if we stopped eating these sticky proteins from these main offenders. Then drank wine in moderation to help dissolve this stuff off the villi.... keep that up till you feel way better...ie your villi are healed/regrown and your absorbing food.


I eat whatever I want. But I listen to my body. I just can't eat a lot of diary or grains. If I do eat them, I savor and chew them slowly and well... I don't like feeling sluggish and if I eat alot of those things I start feeling sluggish. I feel very cleaned out now. I like to eat lots of raw fruits and veggies. I think for me I just can't eat things that are inflammatory, and dairy and all grains are inflammatory to me. So looks like I'll be eating mainly fruits, veggies, wild or grass-fed meats, and figure out what other stuff I can eat thats not too inflammatory. I'll probably also drink wine or brandy and use other plants things that are anti-inflammatory. Yeah!

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I had TWO glasses of wine last nite and I feel way better already ! ! ! :D


CeeCee

Allergic to: wheat, peanuts and Penicillin

1995 severe anaphylactic reaction to Wheat

Gluten free since Sept. 2006

"Failure is only the opportunity to begin again, more intelligently"--- Henry Ford

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I had TWO glasses of wine last nite and I feel way better already ! ! ! :D

haha.. i had a glass earlier after i rushed to the store after understanding this... and i'm about to have another one... i never really did like alcohol much...but a few years ago i tried to drink wine moderately everyday seeing that it was "healthy" and i actually did become more healthy. maybe this is why..


I eat whatever I want. But I listen to my body. I just can't eat a lot of diary or grains. If I do eat them, I savor and chew them slowly and well... I don't like feeling sluggish and if I eat alot of those things I start feeling sluggish. I feel very cleaned out now. I like to eat lots of raw fruits and veggies. I think for me I just can't eat things that are inflammatory, and dairy and all grains are inflammatory to me. So looks like I'll be eating mainly fruits, veggies, wild or grass-fed meats, and figure out what other stuff I can eat thats not too inflammatory. I'll probably also drink wine or brandy and use other plants things that are anti-inflammatory. Yeah!

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That dogtor site looks interesting, i'll have to spend some time to read his articles. I never considered that the "gluiness" of these starches stayed gluey even after going through the stomach and that it was that aspect that damaged the villi. But, I'm sure i've been a celiac my whole life (i'm 42, just diagnosed), but although I didn't have a biopsy, my enterolab test showed no malabsorption. How would that happen? I'm quite sure I have a leaky gut however.

Ok, on to wine. REd or white or doesn't it matter? :) Actually, I can't really drink wine, it makes me fall asleep and get a headache. :( But I still drink a glass now and then. I was going to research this sometime, because I thought I had heard that some wines have either gluten or casein in them..used as part of manufacturing, but I can't remember which one or for which kind of wine...does anyone know about this?

thanks for the info!

Liz


Liz

Positive enterolab results 11/07:

-antigliadin IgA: 56 (normal <10)

-antitissue tTG IgA: 39 (normal <10)

-anti-casein IgA: 34 (normal <10)

-HLA-DQ: 2,1 (2,6)

Positive blood test IgA and IgG 12/07

Gluten-free Casein-free since 12/07

mostly soy free since 12/07

Diagnosed with adrenal fatigue 08/07

Diagnosed hypothyroid 01/08

Still have mercury fillings, high mercury and lead

Multiple chemical sensitivities

9 year old daughter positive enterolab test for gluten, casein, soy and egg with HLA-DQ 3,1 (7,6)--mostly exhibits behavioral reactions to foods including food dyes, MSG, aspartame

Mother passed away 3 years ago of adenocarcinoma of unknown primary. Two years prior had diarrhea causing her to weigh 86 pounds...Mayo clinic told her to take pepto bismol. NO test for celiac, lifelong hx of ulcers, osteoporosis. I now know she had the celiac gene (my dad has DQ1) and was probably undiagnosed her whole life.

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Hey liz thanks for commenting. Do you think you could remove the quote of me in your post? its just really big!


I eat whatever I want. But I listen to my body. I just can't eat a lot of diary or grains. If I do eat them, I savor and chew them slowly and well... I don't like feeling sluggish and if I eat alot of those things I start feeling sluggish. I feel very cleaned out now. I like to eat lots of raw fruits and veggies. I think for me I just can't eat things that are inflammatory, and dairy and all grains are inflammatory to me. So looks like I'll be eating mainly fruits, veggies, wild or grass-fed meats, and figure out what other stuff I can eat thats not too inflammatory. I'll probably also drink wine or brandy and use other plants things that are anti-inflammatory. Yeah!

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. . . . Do you think you could remove the quote of me in your post? its just really big!

Eh it happens all the time . .. ..besides, it's usually good to see what someone's writing about.

I should go back to top & reread 1st post w/ edits


>>>>>>> tom <<<<<<<

Celiac 1st diagnosed as a toddler, in the 60s. Docs then, between bloodletting & leech-tending, said "he'll grow out of it" & I was back on gluten & mostly fine for 30yrs.

Gluten-free since 12-03

Dairy-free since 10-04

Soy-free since 5-07

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I have to admit, thinking about villi and what is or isn't attached to them makes me a little queasy. But I made it to the bottom of your post, just to feel really virtuous about the glass of wine I'm going to get right now. Any more supporting evidence for wine or chocolate, I'm all ears.


Jane

Son (10) diagnosed 10/07 via bloodwork and biopsy

Elimination diet resulted in avoiding dairy, soy & corn for a time

Feeling much better

Enterolab results indicate gluten sensitivity for daughter (14) and myself

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Done, sorry! I meant to delete it before I posted..

Hey liz thanks for commenting. Do you think you could remove the quote of me in your post? its just really big!

Liz

Positive enterolab results 11/07:

-antigliadin IgA: 56 (normal <10)

-antitissue tTG IgA: 39 (normal <10)

-anti-casein IgA: 34 (normal <10)

-HLA-DQ: 2,1 (2,6)

Positive blood test IgA and IgG 12/07

Gluten-free Casein-free since 12/07

mostly soy free since 12/07

Diagnosed with adrenal fatigue 08/07

Diagnosed hypothyroid 01/08

Still have mercury fillings, high mercury and lead

Multiple chemical sensitivities

9 year old daughter positive enterolab test for gluten, casein, soy and egg with HLA-DQ 3,1 (7,6)--mostly exhibits behavioral reactions to foods including food dyes, MSG, aspartame

Mother passed away 3 years ago of adenocarcinoma of unknown primary. Two years prior had diarrhea causing her to weigh 86 pounds...Mayo clinic told her to take pepto bismol. NO test for celiac, lifelong hx of ulcers, osteoporosis. I now know she had the celiac gene (my dad has DQ1) and was probably undiagnosed her whole life.

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OK - I'm definitely going to try red wine with my dinner next time we go out to eat. I always forget all about being sad about not being able to have the bread once I have had a couple of drinks! :)

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"So is this why Mediterraneans are healthier? They are eating these glue foods... but they drink wine throughout the day. In fact in Spain the government recommends men to drink up to a half bottle of wine a day..."

The countries you are referring to are some that routinely test for celiac starting in childhood. They also will exclude gluten as an issue within and average of 3 weeks after the symptoms start rather than the years it takes in the US. Of course those populations are healthier, they don't have the years of damage. I once saw a National Geographic photo of a flour festival where the flour is colored and it is thrown on people in the street. It was either in Spain or Italy I can't remember which. In the pic were a number of people in what looked like hazmat suits. They were covered from head to toe with no exposed skin whatsoever. It didn't take but a minute to realize that those folks might be celiac and that was the way they could safely participate.

" How long does it take for a gluten protein to get stuck on the villi...and then for the body to recognize there is something on the villi and go into immune mode to attack it?"

The immune reaction with gluten actually begins the minute it is put into contact with a mucous membrane. That is one reason why we have to avoid gluten in products like lotions, makeup, shampoos, airborne flour etc. Celiac is a systemic autoimmune reaction, the destroyed villi are one of the effects on the intestine but there can be impact on almost any organ, even without total villi destruction

There is real proof that drinking wine, in moderation, is good for you. It has antioxidants and other good stuff. I don't think, and this is just my opinion, that it gives any protection from celiac though. For folks that don't like alcohol you can get the same benefits from a good grape juice also


Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying

"I will try again tommorrow" (Mary Anne Radmacher)

Diagnosed by Allergist with elimination diet and diagnosis confirmed by GI in 2002

Misdiagnoses for 15 years were IBS-D, ataxia, migraines, anxiety, depression, fibromyalgia, parathesias, arthritis, livedo reticularis, hairloss, premature menopause, osteoporosis, kidney damage, diverticulosis, prediabetes and ulcers, dermatitis herpeformis

All bold resoved or went into remission in time with proper diagnosis of Celiac November 2002

 Gene Test Aug 2007

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 1 0303

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 2 0303

Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 3,3 (Subtype 9,9)

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Would this apply to me as a person who is just trying to start the healing process? Or will red wine make more damage. As previously posted on another topic, My villi are destroyed and I have ulcerations on my intestines. I really enjoy red wine with my dinner and I know it has so many great benefits. Maybe it will help my villi grow back??

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Would this apply to me as a person who is just trying to start the healing process? Or will red wine make more damage. As previously posted on another topic, My villi are destroyed and I have ulcerations on my intestines. I really enjoy red wine with my dinner and I know it has so many great benefits. Maybe it will help my villi grow back??

Everything here is just theory. Red wine is unlikely to help your villi grow back faster, but if you enjoy it, and have no adverse reactions when you drink it, then you should have a glass with dinner. Maybe the pleasure alone will make you feel like you're healing faster.


"But then, in all honesty, if scientists don't play god, who will?"

- James Watson

My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating.

- Ashleigh Brilliant

Leap, and the net will appear.

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The point that DogtorJ was making... was that Italy and France culturally adapted to their high wheat and dairy diets by introducing certain practices.

Drinking wine with their wheat/dairy meals (-with- maybe being the key)... allows the alcohol to dissolve some of the alcohol-soluble lectins. Then, the anti-pasto... which is like a brillo brush as he calls it...was traditionally eaten after the meal. To help scrub the villi clean with the fiber content.

I find it interesting.

I think its funny how in America we look at wine as some sort of a way to get intoxicated. But in Europe its like a "digestif"... its just.. I think over the time as these cultures have developed with the food choices they had...they developed these things.

In America all of a sudden 1000 cultures are together...we haven't developed ways to make our food healthier by things like food combining, etc etc... not that celiacs or intolerants can ever have gluten...

but if wine helps dissolve the lectins from attatching to the walls, and salads help scrub the villi clean... i'm going to include wine daily. drinking some as we speak as i just ate some rice. its nice.


I eat whatever I want. But I listen to my body. I just can't eat a lot of diary or grains. If I do eat them, I savor and chew them slowly and well... I don't like feeling sluggish and if I eat alot of those things I start feeling sluggish. I feel very cleaned out now. I like to eat lots of raw fruits and veggies. I think for me I just can't eat things that are inflammatory, and dairy and all grains are inflammatory to me. So looks like I'll be eating mainly fruits, veggies, wild or grass-fed meats, and figure out what other stuff I can eat thats not too inflammatory. I'll probably also drink wine or brandy and use other plants things that are anti-inflammatory. Yeah!

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Would this apply to me as a person who is just trying to start the healing process? Or will red wine make more damage. As previously posted on another topic, My villi are destroyed and I have ulcerations on my intestines. I really enjoy red wine with my dinner and I know it has so many great benefits. Maybe it will help my villi grow back??

If you are just starting the healing process I would make it a rare treat for a bit. The main reason I say this is that many of us have our liver and pancreas adversely effected by celiac. For example many will have liver panels indicitive of the damage seen commonly in long term overuse of alcohol. I don't think that it will do anything frankly to help the villi grow, if you are healed to the point where your tummy and intestines are not bothering you a glass with dinner would most likely not hurt and can help to regulate bs with a high carb meal, but if you are still experiencing symptoms any alcohol is going to be a tax on your liver and possibly your pancreas as well.


Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying

"I will try again tommorrow" (Mary Anne Radmacher)

Diagnosed by Allergist with elimination diet and diagnosis confirmed by GI in 2002

Misdiagnoses for 15 years were IBS-D, ataxia, migraines, anxiety, depression, fibromyalgia, parathesias, arthritis, livedo reticularis, hairloss, premature menopause, osteoporosis, kidney damage, diverticulosis, prediabetes and ulcers, dermatitis herpeformis

All bold resoved or went into remission in time with proper diagnosis of Celiac November 2002

 Gene Test Aug 2007

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 1 0303

HLA-DQB1 Molecular analysis, Allele 2 0303

Serologic equivalent: HLA-DQ 3,3 (Subtype 9,9)

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The point I was making was, if alcohol can help dissolve and keep lectins off of the villi...then it may be helpful as a daily thing... to just keep the villi clean. I understand your point about the liver. But for people that don't have much villi to begin with, seems keeping them clean is important.


I eat whatever I want. But I listen to my body. I just can't eat a lot of diary or grains. If I do eat them, I savor and chew them slowly and well... I don't like feeling sluggish and if I eat alot of those things I start feeling sluggish. I feel very cleaned out now. I like to eat lots of raw fruits and veggies. I think for me I just can't eat things that are inflammatory, and dairy and all grains are inflammatory to me. So looks like I'll be eating mainly fruits, veggies, wild or grass-fed meats, and figure out what other stuff I can eat thats not too inflammatory. I'll probably also drink wine or brandy and use other plants things that are anti-inflammatory. Yeah!

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I was just thinking about the uses of rubbing alcohol it will take sticky glue off of windshields and stickbugs off of cars . I'm just wondering if wine works in the same way in our body this could be interesting .Dr's always use to say a glass of wine keeps your arteries clean helps keep plack out of them it could work in the same way in our insides. Well just a thought.

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I was just thinking about the uses of rubbing alcohol it will take sticky glue off of windshields and stickbugs off of cars . I'm just wondering if wine works in the same way in our body this could be interesting .Dr's always use to say a glass of wine keeps your arteries clean helps keep plack out of them it could work in the same way in our insides. Well just a thought.

Right... I think what might be key is drinking it during the meal... so that its all mixing in your stomach with your starchy foods that have lectins. Or whatever foods the alcohol helps mix with.

I remember in Italy we ate at a traditional Venice restaurant...and followed the long dinner with a digestif, which was a shot of a clear liquor..forgot the name. Thought it was interesting.


I eat whatever I want. But I listen to my body. I just can't eat a lot of diary or grains. If I do eat them, I savor and chew them slowly and well... I don't like feeling sluggish and if I eat alot of those things I start feeling sluggish. I feel very cleaned out now. I like to eat lots of raw fruits and veggies. I think for me I just can't eat things that are inflammatory, and dairy and all grains are inflammatory to me. So looks like I'll be eating mainly fruits, veggies, wild or grass-fed meats, and figure out what other stuff I can eat thats not too inflammatory. I'll probably also drink wine or brandy and use other plants things that are anti-inflammatory. Yeah!

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"So is this why Mediterraneans are healthier? They are eating these glue foods... but they drink wine throughout the day. In fact in Spain the government recommends men to drink up to a half bottle of wine a day..."

The countries you are referring to are some that routinely test for celiac starting in childhood. They also will exclude gluten as an issue within and average of 3 weeks after the symptoms start rather than the years it takes in the US.

That's only Italy not countries plural.

All the mediterranean countries drink lots of wine with meals... and have better health metrics than the US or Northern European countries. Then again they also eat raw meat/eggs and unpasturised cheese. ( I believe this itself is another contributing factor because it helps our immune systems develop)

I rather think it has more to do with the overall diet as Curious one said

The point that DogtorJ was making... was that Italy and France culturally adapted to their high wheat and dairy diets by introducing certain practices.

The whole diet is something that has evolved over 1000's of yrs. I know lots of Northern Europeans who order a capuccino after a meal in Italian resto's ... noone would ever do that in Italy or Southern France...( uggh all that milk with a meal? ) Th mediterranean has had a lot fo time and the luxury of a bountyful climate and moderatley well off poor people...compared to the North. People are less stressed and conscious of being less stressed (at a cultural level) and how overwork is bad... but in Northern Europe you either worked all summer and stockpiled food and firewood etc. or died... We Northern Europeans love to call them lazy yet they enjoy their food, live longer and it seems happier lives?

It is just 'common knowledge' in many ways so that people don't really think about it specifically but when you ask them they just say "but its bad for you"..

Perhaps its a combination? France has a very good medical system.. Italy .. well its could be better from my experience.... its certainly not anywhere near as good as France.. (though a damned site better than the UK) ...

Wine always has been considered healthy in Southern Europe ... (in moderation and with a meal) ... most Italians and French will drink beer for a drink unles they eat but wine with the meal. I think this reallly does have some culturally instilled value... because its about how people feel after the meal.. just like drinking milk with meal or a milky drink afterwards...


Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. (JC, De Bello Gallico Liber III/XVIII)

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I can't really drink wine, it makes me fall asleep and get a headache.

It could be possible that you are experiencing a reaction to the sulfites. Some organic wines do not (supposedly) contain sulfites. Unfortunately, the ones I have tried I have not been that crazy about!

Also, I understand that the red wines are better for you because they contain whatever good guys are present in the skin and seeds... sounds plausible to me!


gluten-free since 2/10/08

EnteroLab results 4/18/08:

Antigliadin IgA 228 (Normal Range <10 Units)

Antitissue Transglutaminase IgA 191 Units (Normal Range <10 Units)

Anti-casein IgA antibody 127 Units (Normal Range <10 Units)

Guess I'm going CF now, too!

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Interesting concept about the wine / glue effect, but need to point out that celiac disease is pretty common in Italy, so I don't believe the wine consumption has staved it off.

Too bad though. If drinking wine with gluten flushed it out with no harmful effects, I probably wouldn't have it.

Amelia

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It could be possible that you are experiencing a reaction to the sulfites. Some organic wines do not (supposedly) contain sulfites. Unfortunately, the ones I have tried I have not been that crazy about!

Also, I understand that the red wines are better for you because they contain whatever good guys are present in the skin and seeds... sounds plausible to me!

I started drinking organic red wine with no detectable sulfites a few months ago. The brand is Frey. The San Giovese and Syrah are excellent and just seem to go down smoother.

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headaches, ugh

Luckily I only get a headache from wine if I drink too much ;)

Don't worry that isn't often, I've learned to pace myself - but do generally share a bottle of wine with spouse for dinner each night.

anyway, I do know many people who get red wine headaches.

Some may be sulfite related.

Also, see this article

red wine headache vs. sulfite allergy

on what else may be an issue - according to this, there may be a way for sensitive folks to drink red wine without headaches (but it does require trial and error) - see toward the bottom of the article.

somewhere on this forum there was a discussion on winemaking, especially the 'fining' process (where food or chemicals are added to wine to bind w/sediment and clarify the wine) - apparently for some (but not all) of the fining agents, if you are allergic to the fining agent you may have a reaction to the wine. There are many 'unfined' wines, those may be worth a try (look on the label, ask an informed wine merchant, or check the winery websites). If I remember, dairy, egg, fish products can all be fining agents - but I don't remember which are the problem ones and I haven't found the right thread (after 10 minutes, so maybe someone else can??).

As long as a person is not prone to addiction to alcohol, or doesn't already have a physical condition (liver esp) that makes alcohol toxic, it seems every month there's another new article on how wine or alcohol is a healthy positive. Helps me to make sense of all this to think of wine as a *food*.


gluten-free (except unintentionally) from 7 Dec 2007

3 gluten-free cousins and counting (1 gold standard, 1 pos blood/no endo, 1 self/dietary diagnosed)

suspect mother was celiac (also, cousin suspects my mother's twin is celiac)

Feb 08 testing 'normal range' for gluten antibodies, IBD and food allergies

Staying off gluten - dietary reaction is compelling for me!

"Hi, I'm the gluten-free diner at your table."

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Not to be my usual killjoy, but even one glass of wine a day for women can increase cancer risk. Look for the studies online. Dr. Mercola and elsewhere.

Hardly anyone talks about how the goodness found in wine is also found elsewhere...grapes, tomatoes, tea.

Just be on the cautious side with wine or any alcohol, especially if you're a woman, and especially if you have cancer in the family tree.

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